/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11377477]

How would traditionalists like Evola and Guenon respond to say, Lacan or Bataille? Specifically their notions of lack and transgression?

[Anonymous No.11377495]

>>11377477
don't give a fuck

[Anonymous No.11377536]

If I understand your question, by transgression you mean in this case:
>Transgression is anything that involves the contravention of explicit or implicit rules, both in the course of the treatment and in conflictual unconscious functioning, not to mention within the psychoanalytic process itself.
and by lack:
>In Jacques Lacan's psychoanalytic philosophy, lack (French: manque) is a concept that is always related to desire. In his seminar Le transfert (1960–61) he states that lack is what causes desire to arise.

Guénon was not a fan of psychoanalysis or psychoanalytical concepts and he especially disliked the word "unconscious", which forms one of the basis of Freud´s theory and (unconscious) desires and fears.

In "Reign of Quantity", Guénon argues:
>There are also some who adopt the term
'unconscious' as a synonym or equivalent of 'subconscious', and this term, taken literally, would seem to refer to an even lower level,
but as a matter of fact it only corresponds less closely to reality; if the object of study were really unconscious it is difficult to see how it could be spoken of at all, especially in psychological terms; and besides, what good reason is there, other than mere materialistic and mechanistic prejudice, for assuming that anything unconscious really exists? However that may be, there is another thing worthy of note, and that is the strange illusion which leads psychologists to regard states as being more 'profound' when they are quite simply more inferior; is not this already an indication of the tendency to run counter to spirituality, which alone can be truly profound since it alone touches the principle and the very center of the being? Correspondingly, since the domain of psychology is not extended upward, the 'superconscious' naturally remains as strange to it and as cut off from it as ever.

I do not think Guénon would even respond to Lacan or Bataille, because Guénon was more interested what is commonly understood as superconscious, rather than the base desires that can be only described as being part of the subconscious, area which psychoanalysis is solely interested in.

[Anonymous No.11377547]

If I understand your question, by transgression you mean in this case:
>Transgression is anything that involves the contravention of explicit or implicit rules, both in the course of the treatment and in conflictual unconscious functioning, not to mention within the psychoanalytic process itself.
and by lack:
>In Jacques Lacan's psychoanalytic philosophy, lack (French: manque) is a concept that is always related to desire. In his seminar Le transfert (1960–61) he states that lack is what causes desire to arise.

Guénon was not a fan of psychoanalysis or psychoanalytical concepts and he especially disliked the word "unconscious", which forms one of the basis of Freud´s theory and (unconscious) desires and fears.

In "Reign of Quantity", Guénon argues:
>There are also some who adopt the term 'unconscious' as a synonym or equivalent of 'subconscious', and this term, taken literally, would seem to refer to an even lower level, but as a matter of fact it only corresponds less closely to reality; if the object of study were really unconscious it is difficult to see how it could be spoken of at all, especially in psychological terms; and besides, what good reason is there, other than mere materialistic and mechanistic prejudice, for assuming that anything unconscious really exists? However that may be, there is another thing worthy of note, and that is the strange illusion which leads psychologists to regard states as being more 'profound' when they are quite simply more inferior; is not this already an indication of the tendency to run counter to spirituality, which alone can be truly profound since it alone touches the principle and the very center of the being? Correspondingly, since the domain of psychology is not extended upward, the 'superconscious' naturally remains as strange to it and as cut off from it as ever.

I do not think Guénon would even respond to Lacan or Bataille, because Guénon was more interested what is commonly understood as superconscious, rather than the base desires that can be only described as being part of the subconscious, area which psychoanalysis is solely interested in.

[Anonymous No.11377563]

>>11377536
I'm not up on my Bataille so I won't respond there, but for Lacan the unconscious is not a psychological domain as much as it is the immanent antagonisms and inconsistencies that structure every field of discourse, the repression that makes that discourse effective. So for example physics is really only operative as physics if we "repress" the qualitative dimension of experience and refer only to that which can be quantified.

the larger point is that nothing can be without this constitutive repression of what it is not (or does not want to be). and this ties back into lack being constitutive of desire: the 'lack' of the system - the 'excrement' which the system cannot meaningfully appropriate to itself - is precisely what makes the system effective as the system that it is.

[Anonymous No.11377587]

>>11377563
>the immanent antagonisms and inconsistencies that structure every field of discourse
Guenon was fundamentally interested in the purely intellectual (i.e. metaphysical), not in the rational and discursive

[Anonymous No.11377601]

>>11377563
Well, do you believe in superconscious?

That is, something, which transcends both conscious and subconscious states.

Guénon and Evola do not agree on many points, but transcendence (of consciousness) is one of them.

[Anonymous No.11377606]

>>11377587
right, but the question still remains to what extent this negativity present in Lacan (which makes a lot of sense to me) would figure into Guenon's ideas. If it doesn't, then what I'm interested in the explanation as to why it would no longer be applicable

[Anonymous No.11377612]

>>11377606
All of manifestation is characterized by duality. That's metaphysics 101. Sounds basically like what Lacan is saying.

[Anonymous No.11377614]

>>11377495
Pretty much this, for someone who doesn’t have metaphysical knowledge, pretty much all the philosophizing they can do is intellectual masturbation

[Anonymous No.11377616]

>>11377601
Yes. Hegel's done a number on me with his immanence but I believe there are states of being even he couldn't think. Precisely because they are not accessible to thought, but only praxis. My question is how to reconcile superconsciousness with its libidinal base in Bataille, or the constitutive impossibilities of Lacan.

It's not so far-fetched. If every system is something like a torus (the 'hole'/lack in the center is what makes the torus a torus), then mysticism as the rejection of discursivity can only be a going-into this 'hole' or void, or rather, an encounter with the noumenal springhead of manifestation.

[Anonymous No.11377634]

>>11377616
>superconsciousness with its libidinal base
Superconsciousness does not have a libidonal base. To borrow an image from Hindu myth, it is a tree with its roots in the heavens and fruit on the eartg. The libido is the fruit not the base. Our world being an inverted image of the heavens means things sometimes appear topsy turvy.

[Anonymous No.11377666]

>>11377634
The modern reversal then seems to be: roots in hell (the primal flux of intensive matter) with its fruit as (merely) human consciousness.

the question is then between consciousness (or the intellect at least) being instantiated in matter from on high, or swimming up out of a dark and obscure ground (as Schelling has it who was low-key influential for psychoanalytical notions of the unconscious, which he first understood as the dark, inaccessible ground of God)

[Anonymous No.11377680]

>>11377634
>>11377616

I quote Evola:
>Besides the Shakti element, found in the Shiva-Shakti dyad, the primary power, Parashakti, is also present in the organism in the form of kundalini. Kundalini is the root of a being's deepest life. Its seat in the human body is the muladhara-chakra. Muladhara means foundation, or fundamental support. According to yogic occult physiology, the plexus of the nadis (luminous arteries in which the basic life force, which permeates and lives in the occult corporeity, flows), is located in the muladhara-chakra. This basic center also corresponds to the last of the principles of the manifestation, namely, to the earth's tattva (prithivi-tattva); the earth symbolizes the state of outward, sensory, and material experiences. In this center of the invisible corporeity, the power at the basis of every manifestation is asleep. The term kundalini , or kundali, literally means "wrapped up," and it conveys the idea of sleep, or of a latent and unutilized
potential. Kundalini's sleep has various meanings. The most conventional one is referred to the waking experience of a chaotic and dualistically minded world, in which the unity of power is not perceived. Thus it is said that samsara goes on and that we live in its snares for all the time kundalini is asleep. I have briefly mentioned that there seems to be a relationship between kundalini and sex; thus magical-sexual practices are supposed to cause a temporary arousal of the force. This relationship exists only in the context of a superphysical physiology, in the sense that Shakti, who rescinds the ties of yearning in the human condition, also manifests herself in that condition in the form of yearning.

But even Evola would not be crazy enough to equate Kundalini, shakti what (westerners) understand as sexuality (or polarity). Neither is the sleep of kundalini something to be equated as the unconscious or subconscious (sexual) desire.

[Anonymous No.11377688]

>>11377666
>those digits with that post

[Anonymous No.11377713]

>>11377680
It seems the Shakti element is the feminine fluxion present in Bataille, and I know Land refers to the 0/void as something like a cosmic vulva.

Nevertheless Evola's conception of spirit is purely immanent and processual, it rises up out of the mud instead of being planted there. I don't have The Hermetic Tradition on hand but it's in there, a line about the alchemists being thankful for the "stone" (body) for being the condition of possibility for the Great Work. But I'm not sure to what extent the gold is created or restored.

[Anonymous No.11377756]

>>11377713
>It seems the Shakti element is the feminine fluxion present in Bataille, and I know Land refers to the 0/void as something like a cosmic vulva.

In Hindu doctrine, ether (akasha) is considered the substratum of every phenomenon. On the one hand, ether (which has nothing in common with the ether described by modern physics) is believed to be alive ("made of life," or of prana); on the other hand, its substance is believed to be "sound" or "word." The "seat" that corresponds to the doctrine of the three states is tajasa, which is blocked by sleep to ordinary man's consciousness.

Pic related is traditional tattva represention of Akasha. Sometimes an black egg, sometimes black oval (or vulva if you prefer)

[Anonymous No.11377773]

>>11377756
you're right, hindus do recognize feminine flux but isn't the base proper, but the neutral ether. also the fact that you said it is alive makes me think that was the ancient Hindu way of referring to the planck-scale froth of the quantum void.

it's a good argument. Zizek for example denies an original void at peace with itself, that is only our retroactive supposition, there is only ever this turbulence and pure difference we see all around us. but I disagree, I don't think it's chaos all the way down

[Anonymous No.11377881]

>>11377865
where does the femininity come in?

also isn't the primordiality of sound kind of undercut by the atmosphere serving as its medium? obviously the vacuum of space is silent

[Anonymous No.11379217]

>>11377881
A vacuum lacks the necessary material conditions for sound to be carried, but it has no bearing on the qualities of sound itself. Eyes are not a necessary precondition for the existence of light with all its qualities, atmosphere is not a necessary precondition for the existence of sound with all its qualities.

[Anonymous No.11379370]

>>11379217
makes sense, thanks. good thread

[Anonymous No.11379379]

>>11377477
>Evola
>traditionalist

[Anonymous No.11379388]

>>11379379
how many layers of ironic shitposting has evolaposting reached now

[Anonymous No.11379420]

>>11377616
Interested a bit of hot, sexy praxis with you, mmmm. I've been reading a manual, and with a huff and puff and biff buff insertion into your holio hole I can open a superconscious wormhole. We chant EEEEE BOP EEEEE BOP EEEE BOP. Sabioz (I've already fucked him three times0 will erupt in powerful, awesome splendor, and we'll service his mighty cock with our slobbering tongues and shoving amethyst gems up our arse. Let me know because it takes Two to contact the One. Swimming across the Dyad with only one cock for a rudder. Ugh.

[Anonymous No.11379431]

>>11379420
what

[Anonymous No.11379436]

>>11379431
LOW LEVEL CONSCIOUSNESSES LEAVE REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Anonymous No.11379444]

>>11379388
I refuse to count.

[Anonymous No.11379445]

Reminder that Peterson is a traditionalist

[Anonymous No.11379450]

Why do traditionalists become muslim or hindu, never buddhist or christian?

[Anonymous No.11379462]

>>11379445
Ok I'll bite
How is that retarded materialistic sophist a traditionalist?

[Anonymous No.11379463]

>>11379420

>“Buddha? A notorious metabolic junky . . . Makes his own you dig. In India, where they got no sense of time, The Man is often a month late . . . Now let me see, is that the second or the third monsoon? I got like a meet in Ketchupore about more or less.’

>“And all them junkies sitting around in the lotus position spitting on the ground and waiting on the The Man.

>“So Buddha says:I don’t hafta take this sound. I’ll by God metabolize my own junk.’

>“Man, you can’t do that. The Revenooers will swarm all over you.’

>“Over me they won’t swarm. I gotta gimmick, see? I’m a fuckin’ Holy Man as of right now.’

>“Jeez, boss, what an angle.’”

-Naked Lunch

[Anonymous No.11379467]

>>11379450
Because many of them fell into depression and either ran away from the problems and became muslim or they gabe up entirely to nihilism and killed themselves.
Evola didnt run away that's why I like him. Ride The Tiger still felt a bit nihilistic though.

[Anonymous No.11379483]

>>11379467
>following other than (insert preferred religion) is running away or nihilism

please anon

[Anonymous No.11379499]

>>11379483
Go inhale your memes child

[Anonymous No.11379506]

>>11379463
WSB is CIA turned HIp Priest. I was a poor mongolian boy living in the outskirts when he and a bunch of wild eyed suited men turned up. Say, boy, you're cute. You come up? I went with. Biggest mistake of my life? Idk. My asshole was used like a sack of potatoes thrown down the highest flight of dares. In a word, it was sore and crusty. A month later my young, mongolian body had injested enough of their beatifying white man semen and I could read, write and contact the Dominions. He died before I had time for him to hook me up with the blue neon gods, and I've been trying since to find someone with a cock big enough and swathy enough to paddle with, but it's bogus. It's all bogus. I'm so fucking sick, tired and hot.

[Anonymous No.11379510]

>>11379483
>become muslim, moved to egypt and married an egyptian woman
BASED!!1

[Anonymous No.11379518]

>>11379506
>>11379420
schizophrenic meme posters are the cancer killing reddit

[Anonymous No.11379523]

>>11379499

>Evola is based because he didn't run away, never mind that he got a bunch of stuff wrong, wasn't initiated into any genuine tradition and was like a slightly edgier Blavatsky
>All those traditionalists who partook in live metaphysical traditions are nihilists or cowards because they wouldn't be BASED CHRISTIANS (except for Evola who was based even though he shat all over Christianity (totally not a contradiction btw))
>If only all these thots and kikes would recognize REAL TRADITIONS like ESOTERIC KUNDALINI HITLERISM
>fuck guenon for becoming a muslim, fucking mudslimes

[Anonymous No.11379524]

>>11379518
Christopher Complain-A-Lot likes to Complain-A-Lot. Christopher Complain-A-Lot thinks it as a posture makes him look so hot. It does not. I repeat, it does not. He is a little faggot with a face smeared with snot. What you got, Christopher Complain-A-Lot. Just more complaining. A lot.

[Anonymous No.11379532]

>>11379524
Does voodoo curses like this work over the Internet? I've seen bad results in person, but can it actually work online?

[Anonymous No.11379588]

>>11379510
>egyptian women are bad

[Anonymous No.11379602]

>>11379588
Not at all but lets stop pretending he didnt run away

[Anonymous No.11379611]

>>11379523
>reading this far into my post
is this projection or something?
im not a christian and i admire muslims a lot more than christians so i dont know how you would gather that

[Anonymous No.11379613]

>>11379462
he said so in his most recent interview

[Anonymous No.11379619]

>>11379588
>Egyptian
>picks a girl with European features
I'm sick of this "ethnic but not really" meme.

[Anonymous No.11379621]

>>11379510
Why do I want this life?

[Anonymous No.11379626]

>>11379602
He wrote half a dozen books explaining exactly how to fix the west. Just because he didn't take it upon himself to do all the work doesn't mean he was running away. He did infinitely more for the west than anyone on 4chan.

[Anonymous No.11379627]

>>11379613
I'm the Queen of England
I said so it's true

[Anonymous No.11379644]

>>11379626
And his work is excellent
But he did run away, he gave up on the struggle and seeked comfort
Live by the principles you expect others to live by

>>11379621
I dont know anon it entirely depends on you
Do you admire traditional Europe? Are you European? Are you a nationalist?
If you are then the answer is self explanatory
If you're not then I dont care what you do, go and be happy anon

[Anonymous No.11379660]

>>11379611
>is this projection or something?

No, but it is a fairly accurate ironic portrayal of many of the evola-posters on /lit/

>>11379619
There are many, many middle and upper-middle class Egyptian women who more or less look like that in Egypt, especially in the cities where they all stay inside all day and take care of their appearances. It's the same way with women in the Levant. The migrant workers from these places that you see in the west are almost always from the lowest classes with darker skin who descend from a long line of farmers and laborers.

[Anonymous No.11379663]

>>11379644
So egypt is like what europe used to be?

[Anonymous No.11379757]

>>11379660
Because many of those upper/middle class girls are hellenic and not arabic or semitic

[Anonymous No.11379792]

>>11379757
delusion

[Anonymous No.11379812]

>>11379619
It's almost as if primordial humans mixed and European features exist elsewhere like in Horn Africans

[Anonymous No.11379822]

>>11379757
Most Egyptian models are actually Copts, who are genetically closer to the original Egyptians, but even the Egyptian masses are still mostly the same and have had little mixture. The Hellenes had almost no genetic impact of note and the Arab one was only marginal. Egyptians on average only have 17% Arab DNA, the Lebanese and Iranians (which people often say look white) both have double that amount. The Ancient Egyptians were themselves most closely related to other Meds which was confirmed by the recent Max Planck study.

[Anonymous No.11379824]

>>11377756
>the ether described by modern physics
hi I don’t know shit about Hindu doctrine but there is no such ether

[Anonymous No.11379829]

>>11379822
Nigga Ancient Egyptians have mostly European DNA

[Anonymous No.11379844]

>>11379829
haplo group

[Anonymous No.11379860]

>>11379824
>hi I don’t know shit about Hindu doctrine but there is no such ether

Well then you have no authority to speak on them and can safely be ignored

>>11379829
It's not 'European' but they are closely related to them. There is no Indo-European descent at all save for that which was introduced thousands of years later. Genetically European is the mix of the IE and the various pre-IE pops, even peoples like Finns and Hungarians are still largely IE genetically if not linguistically. Egyptians were similar to the pre-IE med-region Europeans but that's about it.

[Anonymous No.11379865]

>>11379844
"A complete genome sequence was obtained for three mummies and mitochondrial DNA, which is passed through the female line, was obtained from 90 individuals. Theywere dated to between about 1,400BC and 400AD.

They concluded the mummified people were “distinct from modern Egyptians, and closer towards Near Eastern and European samples”.

“Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more ancestry with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians,” they wrote.

And they added: “We find that ancient Egyptians are most closely related to Neolithic and Bronze Age samples in the Levant, as well as to Neolithic Anatolian and European populations.

“When comparing this pattern with modern Egyptians, we find that the ancient Egyptians are more closely related to all modern and ancient European populations that we tested, likely due to the additional African component in the modern population.”

[Anonymous No.11379909]

>>11379865
I never made the argument about them being the same as modern Egyptians, but I hadn't seen the DNA evidence.
There would need to be evidence of recent migration in the mesolithic or neolithic to make the claim they were "mostly European" though, I don't know if there is, these could be samples of descendants of the European diaspora in North Africa following the Ice Age, thus mixed and removed from Europeans racially by 1400BC, Near East connection suggests this.
I say haplo group because it means they do descend from Europeans but gives no indication of the time scale or origin or any admixture like I'm saying, it's more honest to refer to that.

[Anonymous No.11380181]

>>11379370
Additionally, something occurred to me which is perhaps worth noting. Genesis 1:3 "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light." Even the Western tradition upholds this "primordiality of sound".

[Anonymous No.11380504]

>Existence can't, at one and the same time, be both autonomous and viable.

Wtf did Bataille mean by 'viable'?

[Anonymous No.11381296]

Thread started good, but was ruined by fucking faggots

[Anonymous No.11381558]

>>11381296
You're ultimately no different from them

[Anonymous No.11381656]

>>11379445
You can't be a Traditionalist while upholding liberal democracy as something worth preserving like Peterson does, they're directly incompatible.

[Anonymous No.11382127]

This is the reason you see so many Evola haters
They are buttblasted Amerilards

[Anonymous No.11382303]

Evola and Guenon represent the ascetic gnostics, while Lacan and Bataille are the hedonistic sort.

Pagans have always had trouble figuring out which type they're supposed to emulate.

[Anonymous No.11382312]

>>11379445

He's a 18th century Freemason, far from a traditionalist

[Anonymous No.11382338]

>>11382127
Guenon said the same shit about Americans, most of the Evola-haters in fact dislike him because they know the primary texts better than him and regard him as having made elementary mistakes and drawing the wrong conclusions. Evola's retarded thoughts about Buddhism, Vedanta, caste, action vs. knowledge, fascism and about Greco-Roman religion etc are only a small subset of his idiocy. He is amusing and sometimes has some interesting observations/insights but that's about it.

[Anonymous No.11382343]

>>11380504
Feasible, valid, capable of living/existing fairly successfullh

[Anonymous No.11382426]

>>11379909
hey thanks for helping to ruin an interesting thread with yet another tedious trad race debate you simping fucking ape

[Anonymous No.11382505]

>>11382338
What are Evola's main misconceptions?

[Anonymous No.11382546]

>>11381656
Nor can you be a Traditionalist while upholding Jungian psychoanalytics, which Guenon compared to Satanism. Peterson is the very definition of what Guenon calls a "crack in the great wall."

[Anonymous No.11382558]

>>11382546
the psychologization of metaphysical principles is a jew psyop

[Anonymous No.11382600]

>>11382426
I didn't start anything though, I was just trying to diffuse it and make people think about it more openly, because ultimately it doesn't matter and it's just something to think about.

[Anonymous No.11382607]

>>11382558
In most cases unintentional (or at least not with that specific intent in mind) but yes

[Anonymous No.11382612]

>>11382607
i'll somewhat give jung the benefit of the doubt cause he lets out his inner mystic occasionally (7 sermons of the dead for example which might as well be a traditionalist piece)

[Anonymous No.11382821]

>>11382546
I do not think Guénon was not against psychoanalytical theory as far it was concerned with subconscious solely.

Guénon was concerned of the very fact that psychoanalytical school was trying to put this "unconscious" or "subconscious" as the (essential) constitute of Man and his motives. This is what Guénon calls "Confusion of the Psychic and The Spiritual"

In my opinion, the main problem with the theories of Jung and Freud was their (obsession) with sex and (base) desires.

To a question concerning the validity of using sex as a means of spiritual culture, Sri Ramakrishna made the following reply:
>Know that it is also one of the paths, but a dirty one. Just as there are several doors-the main gate, the back door and one for the sweeper to enter the house in order to clean the dirt there-leading into the house, so know that this is also a path. Through whatever door people may enter the house, they reach the goal all right'.

But the psychoanalytical school that developed in the west, instead of some Eastern tantric schools, could be in view of Ramakrishna´s quotes to be akin to collecting the trash and feces from the household above and dissecting them to elements, never even trying to gain entrance, but to trying to understand the house inside through the sewage water issuing from it.

[Anonymous No.11382834]

>>11382709