Why do we anglocise Greek Democracies and Republics?

[Anonymous No.11235223]

How come when we picture socrates, plato, and the like, we tend to think of charlten heston strongman types instead of the fat, sweaty hairy dudes in bathrobes and hairy knuckled italian she boons we tend to associate greeks with now?

Why do we reinvision these cultures based on our own societies aesthetics rather than the ones we associate with modern greece?

[Anonymous No.11235227]

Because you touch yourself at night.

[Anonymous No.11235238]

>>11235227
yes, but i still think people would think less of socrates if he looked like Paul Bellini.

[Anonymous No.11235243]

>>11235223
Plato was a wrestler, Socrates had been a soldier.

[Anonymous No.11235248]

>>11235243
yeah, a gay soldier.

[Anonymous No.11235249]

Because history

[Anonymous No.11235293]

>>11235223
That's actually an interesting question although it's not very /lit/ related.

Since, you speak of Charlton Heston, the actual question is: why isn't Hollywood faithful to the original when it comes to the description of bodies and instead changes it in accordance with its own pretty monotonous ideal of beauty over and over again.

Tell me what's wrong with Anna Karenina in this picture for example.

[Anonymous No.11235310]

>>11235223
>How come when we picture socrates, plato, and the like, we tend to think of charlten heston strongman types
Who the fuck does that?

[Anonymous No.11235313]

>>11235293
She cute.

[Anonymous No.11235315]

>>11235293
what i don't understand is why jewish controlled media conglomerates insist on an anglo / ayran standard of beauty.

[Anonymous No.11235320]

>>11235315
Because Jews are parasites and Anglo society is still their host.

[Anonymous No.11235326]

>>11235310
Anglos

[Anonymous No.11235333]

>>11235326
Americans have at least as much french in them as they do german.

[Anonymous No.11235349]

Have you ever seen a Greek or Roman statue?
Our aesthetics are their aesthetics.

[Anonymous No.11235372]

>>11235223
Socrates was not only ripped, he was FUCKING ripped. Pretty much every Greek philosopher, poet, tragedian, and so on would have been, because they were all adult male citizens, and either had to fight in the army or (later) row in the fleet. Or both.

People underestimate the level of physical exertion these things required. These guys worked out EVERY day. They worked out so much that they actually liked working out. They lived to work out. Their entire leisure time was composed of working out and getting gay over how hot their bods were in the balmy Mediterranean sun. The first ten fucking pages in Plato's FIRST dialogue have Socrates lusting over a teenager's sweaty, manly pecs through his toga. Socrates likens himself to a lion that is about to gobble up its prey. He can barely control himself. That is how the Western philosophical tradition starts: homoerotic lust for ripped abs. When Alcibiades, the manliest man in history, bursts into the famous drinking party, at which the guests are discussing the urbane topic of Love, it is to ask Socrates why he never fucked him in the ass when they cuddled. You know how the dialogue ends? Socrates goes to the gym and works out.

Modern recreations and reconstructions have not even succeeded in duplicating the physical feats reported of the Athenian soldiery - that is, the Athenian citizenry. Often, modern historians doubt that these feats are even being accurately reported, for instance the straight dash of the Athenian army across the entire field at Marathon. This is because modern athletes and bodybuilders can't even do these things, even with relatively light gear compared to what the Athenians actually carried. It took a team of Olympic master rowers to even APPROXIMATE the sailing techniques of the Athenian fleet, outside of combat conditions, on a placid sea. The entire Athenian fleet was regularly capable of these maneuvers, season after season, year after year, campaign after campaign. The sole engine of these maneuvers was muscle. Raw, sweaty, heaving Athenian muscle. Athenian men were the envy of the Aegean.

It is understandable that modern historians, coming from a society of flabby, skinnyfat wimps, are unable to comprehend the sheer manliness of Athens. Socrates saved Alciabiades in a hoplite battle in the Peloponnesian War. Aeschylus, the tragic poet, fought at Marathon. And all of them worked out and fucked ass, at every moment they weren't literally inventing Western civilisation.

[Anonymous No.11235386]

>>11235223
Are you completely retarded?
>Why do we reinvision these cultures based on our own societies aesthetics
Not by OUR society's aesthetics but theirs, you fucking imbecile. There's plenty about the ancient Greek's way of life and it's got nothing to do with "our modern societies aesthetics". The reason "our societies aesthetics" are like the ancient Greeks is not because we're imposing """ours""" on theirs but that they, through a chasm of over 2000 years, are imposing theirs on ours.

>than the ones we associate with modern greece
Modern Greece is the same as ancient Greece? How about this you absolute brainlet: In the ancient World, northern Europeans were considered loud, barbaric, simpletons whereas southern Europeans i.e. Greeks and Romans were the pinnacle of culture and civilization. Now, does that apply today as well? Are Scandinavians stereotyped as hot-headed loudmouths without order?

Never post again you moronic asswipe.

[Anonymous No.11235397]

>>11235372
Good post.

[Anonymous No.11235402]

The Greeks presented themselves as tall, lean and white. Our depictions of them are based on the depictions they left behind

[Anonymous No.11235407]

>>11235372
We have come a long way

[Anonymous No.11235411]

>>11235315
>an anglo / ayran standard of beauty
What do you mean by this. Imo, there is no cultural tradition of an anglo/ayran standard of beauty. If at all there's a western standard of beauty which is created by the fashion and movie industry but it's pretty modern and not very old (~100 years).

And it's a quite gay standard of beauty: women are pretty androgynos (like catamites), men are very muscular and overly masculine.
Is it a coincidence a far above average amount of the people working in the fashion and movie industry are gay?

Tolstoi for example described Anna Karenina as corpulent and emphasized on her "beautiful thick upper arms". And yes, he thought a corpulent women with thick upper arms could be very beautiful and tempting. He wrote it between 1873 and 1878 in an Euopeanized Russia - that's not that long ago.

[Anonymous No.11235412]

>>11235223
because the ancient Greeks and Romans were significantly whiter than the modern greeks and Romans. while they were not Nords, they had large numbers of red and tawny to even blonde haired people in the nobility. They were taller, stronger, leaner and much more vigorous as a race than modern greeks. They near constantly depicted their warriors as being rippling, steel-muscled killing machines. Look at modern greeks, they’re feeble bodied, ugly, asymmetric retards. The Greeks had the highest iq of any civilization in the ancient world, Greece has an avg iq on par with iraq and Syria now. Things have degraded considerably.

[Anonymous No.11235416]

They weren't exactly white by /pol/ standards, more like pic related

[Anonymous No.11235419]

>>11235372
I've been hunting for this for a long time, thank you

[Anonymous No.11235423]

>>11235416
>These are the people who say shit like "akchually, my toilet is older than your country you amerimutt ;)"

[Anonymous No.11235427]

>>11235416
that’s not what ancient Greeks looked like, their skulls are hybrids of Dinarics, Meds and Semites/Berbers/Africans. That’s post-Byzantine Greece, with huge Near Eastern admixture. Ancient Greeks had much more progressive physiognomy. Every single depiction of the Greeks shows this even “realistic” depictions

[Anonymous No.11235430]

>>11235372
This makes me wonder about the link between the mind and the body. There are studies now showing that cognition is directly linked to the condition of the body and that the separation of mind/body is even more arbitrary than the current consensus. In fact I even recall a study suggesting that cardiovascular health and strength were directly correlated with increased intelligence. If that is all true perhaps the physical condition of the Greeks is what made them so intelligent.

[Anonymous No.11235446]

>>11235427
The guys in the picture are not even Greek lol

[Anonymous No.11235451]

>>11235293
>Tell me what's wrong with Anna Karenina in this picture for example.
literally nothing, keira is human perfection

[Anonymous No.11235455]

>>11235451
>that nose
>that grin
ew

[Anonymous No.11235459]

...because we don't? We picture them like they were portrayed in their own statues and busts. Are you one of those retards who needs to pretend that Italians and Greeks all look like Arabs? This isn't true today. It definitely wasn't true in antiquity. Fuck off.

[Anonymous No.11235467]

>>11235455
delet

[Anonymous No.11235491]

>>11235416
We have statue and, paintings to determine what ancient Greeks looked like. They objectively did not look like that.

[Anonymous No.11235501]

>>11235411
>Tolstoi for example described Anna Karenina as corpulent

Does he really? Are you sure that's not a bad translation?

[Anonymous No.11235514]

>>11235491
You must be blind

[Anonymous No.11235555]

>>11235514
Are you really going to play dumb and pretend that ancient Greeks statues and paintings look like the people in that pic as if I can't literally just Google image searches examples debunking this shit in seconds? Lmao.

[Anonymous No.11235574]

>>11235501
He did. Anna's physical appearance is modeled after a lady Tolstoi met at a party (I'm not entirely sure about it, but as far as I remember it was a granddaughter of Puschkin), and he was quite impressed about her wonderful appearance. Therefore, he wanted to write a novel on a beautiful thick lady which was basically the birth of Anna Karenina.

[Anonymous No.11235578]

Lol. Why do people feel this desperate need to comically exaggerate the Otherness of Southern Europeans based on caricatures of the darkest, most racially admixed people they can dig up?

[Anonymous No.11235583]

>>11235238
>Paul Bellini
Paul Bellini is a lot more handsome than Socrates was said to have been, let me tell you.

[Anonymous No.11235586]

>>11235320
This unironcally blew my mind. I'm a simple man.

[Anonymous No.11235597]

>>11235574
>granddaughter of Puschkin
>Thick

Oh boy

[Anonymous No.11235602]

>>11235574
"Thick" like a cute chubby girl with big tiddies/ass or like actually fat and obese?

[Anonymous No.11235605]

>>11235555
k.

[Anonymous No.11235621]

>>11235451
Great post
>>11235455
Bad post

[Anonymous No.11235637]

>>11235602
Dude, I don't know how Puschkin's granddaughter looked like or what Tolstoi had in mind exactly, but his specification about "thick upper arms" makes me believe he thinks of her as quite heavy, maybe not straight out fat, but at least a little bit more than just chubby.

[Anonymous No.11235642]

>>11235637
Like that.

[Anonymous No.11235650]

>>11235605
This is clearly pathological. Lol.

All you've established is that they share similar, eyes, nose, and mouth, but there's nothing non-European looking about them. That bust could be any old dude from literally anywhere in Europe.

The example you've contrasted it with doesn't even look "non-white" anyway. He looks like Jackie Jr. from The Sopranos. The only thing that, I guess, could separate him from other Europeans is his tan (and maybe the blurring in the image around his hair, giving the illusion that he has an afro, lol). I can't imagine anyone not seeing this guy as "white". There are even dark haired Anglo guys who look like this.

[Anonymous No.11235656]

>>11235555
>>11235605
Go look up restored statues you fags

[Anonymous No.11235675]

>>11235372
was it the mediterranean diet? where did they get their protein? goat meat?

[Anonymous No.11235693]

>>11235675
Goat meat, fish and anally administered sperm.

[Anonymous No.11235719]

>>11235372
makes sense why Socrates (in the Republic) said it's a bunch of strong young men who create democracies then

[Anonymous No.11235732]

>>11235223
Because they were mongrelized by the Islamic invasions.

[Anonymous No.11235776]

>greeks did realistic art and not idealized art

theres not enough brainlet wojaks in this thread

[Anonymous No.11235843]

>>11235386
You're an idiot. Every conception of aesthetic doesn't include natural objects (though aesthetic things can imitate what's beautiful in nature), and it most certainly didn't include aesthetics of the human form. Only time Plato talks about being "ripped" is when he says the spirit needs both physical training and education to make a harmonized soldier, which leaves the realm of aesthetics for metaphysics. Greek statues are imitating the nature of Gods and godlike men, they're mostly for cultural understanding and myth, not for homoerotic gym junkies to fawn over.

[Anonymous No.11235949]

>>11235293
>>11235451
She looks like a boy.

[Anonymous No.11235996]

>>11235223
>How come when we picture socrates, plato, and the like, we tend to think of charlten heston strongman types
Rose tinted glasses for the past, idolization of heroes combined with ignorance.

Pic related was morbidly obese and had one eye much larger than the other. Yet still gets drawn like an angel in most pictures.

[Anonymous No.11236011]

>>11235223
>Mortals suppose that the gods are born and have clothes and voices and shapes like their own.
>The Ethiopians make their gods black and snub-nosed; the Thracians say theirs have blue eyes and red hair.
>If oxen and horses or lions had hands, and could paint with their hands, and produce works of art as people do, horses would paint the forms of the gods like horses, and oxen like oxen, and make their bodies in the image of their various kinds.
-Xenophanes

[Anonymous No.11236084]

>>11235248
Socrates had a wife...

[Anonymous No.11236149]

>>11236084
Pretty much all of them had wives. It didn't hinder them to "cuddle" their toyboys on the side. Both was part of the ancient Greek's way of life.

Nevertheless, Socrates wasn't interested much in erotic relationships with boys or men - maybe he didn't like it, maybe he just wasn't interested in erotic relationships at all.

[Anonymous No.11236200]

>>11235223
>Why do we reinvision these cultures based on our own societies
Only Americans and Bongs do this. Much like how your post presupposes that everyone on this board shares this reprehensible anglospheric mindset.

[Anonymous No.11236215]

>>11235656
>tfw there was a red haired taxa in Greece and I was right and have been right for 3 years about something that /pol/ is too dumb and the phora niggers are too dumb to have noticed because they want to LARP as Greeks when their ancestors were still living like animals in the Black Forest
not only did a Red haired taxa dominate Greece, Anatolia, Persia, and Bactria, but the earliest Aryans in India were most likely red and tawny (read:reddish-blonde haired) haired europids.

feels good to be superior to an entire board of people who have had access to this information for significantly longer than I have
>>11235675
boards, cattle, goats, fish and pelasgians
>>11235843
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, read Plutarch or Thucydides. Men of war do not look like police officers or nerdic army engineers you fucking dipshit
>>11236011
> the Thracians say theirs have blue eyes and red hair.
> red hair
yup

[Anonymous No.11236227]

>>11235949
do you have a point, pleb?

[Anonymous No.11236404]

>>11235293
>why isn't Hollywood faithful to the original when it comes to the description of bodies and instead changes it in accordance with its own pretty monotonous ideal of beauty over and over again.

They're Americans. They would have Anna wearing a miniskirt with double Ds hanging from her drop top if they could.

[Anonymous No.11236503]

>>11236215
t. hasn't read any philosophy of art because he's an idiot who fawns over muh 300 spartans

[Anonymous No.11236504]

>>11236084
yeah, a gay wife

[Anonymous No.11236513]

>>11235372
Socrates was literally fat

[Anonymous No.11236525]

>>11236215
Thracians aren't greeks idiot...

[Anonymous No.11236601]

This is what the Greeks REALLY looked like...

[Anonymous No.11236609]

Hello, it's me... Socrates

[Anonymous No.11236625]

>>11236601
I at last understand why so many Greeks were into boys, then

[Anonymous No.11236630]

Tell me about a complicated man.

[Anonymous No.11236649]

(I lied these photos are from Sicily)

[Anonymous No.11236681]

>it’s a /lit/ or /his/ tries to pretend there were no blonde ancient Greeks despite numerous ancient sources mentioning exact hair color and appearance

It’s almost like...they’re like modern Greeks or Italians or other Europeans whose hair comes in different colors...woah

[Anonymous No.11236694]

>>11235372
quality post

[Anonymous No.11236712]

itt /his/ crossposting faggotry

[Anonymous No.11236755]

>>11236681
>78 AD

[Anonymous No.11237043]

>>11236404
>They would have Anna wearing a miniskirt with double Ds hanging from her drop top if they could.

There is a scene in the book where Anna causes a scandal at a party by showing too much titty.

[Anonymous No.11237059]

Wtf? Charlten Heston as Plato and Socrates?

It's because the BBC made all of your greek cultural introduction for Anglophones until very recently that we have digital images of their busts, and even now there's the cultural taint of the BBC to give them white skin in most portrayals when they were actually as dark as Ethiopians or at least Turks.

[Anonymous No.11237095]

>>11237059
>they were actually as dark as Ethiopians

[Anonymous No.11237522]

>>11235843
>and it most certainly didn't include aesthetics of the human form
You have no idea what you're talking about. You didn't even start with the Greeks. In Mythology, Hamilton literally touches on this:
>The Greeks, unlike the Egyptians, made their gods in their own image.
>In Greece alone in the ancient world people were preoccupied with the visible; they were finding the satisfaction of their desires in what was actually in the world around them.
>The sculptor watched the athletes contending in the games and he felt that nothing he could imagine would be as beautiful as those strong young bodies. So he made his statue of Apollo.
>The storyteller found Hermes among the people he passed in the street. He saw the god "like a young man at the age when youth is loveliest," as Homer says.
>Greek artists and poets realized how splendid a man could be, straight and swift and strong.
>He was the fulfillment of their search for beauty.
Stop posting and start reading you dip.

[Anonymous No.11237545]

>>11236681
>mentioning exact hair color
Except the way Greeks described various subjects with colors is completely different from our own. I don't remember the exact phrasing but there's the one with how the color of the sea was once described as the color of wine. There's much more depth and emotional investment in their descriptions. When they write "golden-haired" they don't mean blonde, they mean something more alike "brown hair illuminated by the rays of the sun". There's one description of how the Greeks viewed actual blondes, and there they compare it to someone whose old i.e. white hair of old age, because the blonde hair is so light. That isn't to say there weren't Greeks with light hair and light eyes, but to say they looked like the stereotypical Scandinavian is completely untrue.

[Anonymous No.11237587]

>>11235248
Gay and straight didn't exist back then

[Anonymous No.11237729]

>>11235372
Plato was actually a wrestler before he became a philosopher.

And you talk of Socrates being ripped?

[Anonymous No.11238069]

>>11237522
>Hamilton literally touches on this
>Listening to modern men talk about classics instead of listening to what the classic authors had to say
Stop. I know for a fact you don't know what I'm talking about because you're some NEET dilettante who's never read a book on aesthetics. I actually said that art may imitate natural objects (such as bodies) but that natural objects themselves are not aesthetic, since they are not art - they are natural things in the world outside.

If you read anything about sculpting, you'd know that Apollinian art is about the dream-world, not just imitating the human form (as is the case of Platonic conception of art, which is more or less autism).

[Anonymous No.11238173]

>>11235315
Really scintillates the synapses. It's almost as if this whole (((cultural marxism))) thing is an easy way to avoid having to think with any nuance.

[Anonymous No.11238219]

>>11238069
>natural objects themselves are not aesthetic, since they are not art - they are natural things in the world outside.
Stop.

[Anonymous No.11238234]

>>11238219
>art is nature
Pick up a book, particularly this one.

[Anonymous No.11238263]

>>11238234
And you should in particular stay away from jerking off and spewing nonsense you ingest from reddit. You truly have no idea what you're talking about, your first post was the epitome of your ignorance. Throwing around the word 'aesthetic' doesn't mean you know a damn thing about anything, in particular this subject of ancient Greeks and their 'aesthetics' and ideals of those, you troglodyte.

[Anonymous No.11238315]

>>11238263
You're an idiot, the Socratics didn't believe in art at all.

I actually go to Uni and study this stuff, it's not "reddit". Your pseudery on this site won't work on me.

[Anonymous No.11238341]

>>11235656
>Go look up restored statues you fags

So the Greeks actually had pink skin, interesting

[Anonymous No.11238360]

>>11236681
Even blonde Arabs exist.

[Anonymous No.11238421]

>it immediately devolves into /pol/ sheep and anti/pol/ sheep
let me clear this up, yeah various characters from classical literature had gray eyes or red hair but modern greeks are still the closest people to the ancient greeks we know of.

[Anonymous No.11238437]

>>11238315
>I actually go to Uni and study this stuff
You should drop out.

[Anonymous No.11238436]

>>11238360
assad has blue eyes
persians were indo-european im pretty sure

[Anonymous No.11238454]

>>11238437
No thanks. I'm avoiding obsolescence and plebishness at the moment, unlike you.

[Anonymous No.11238472]

>>11235583
>they say...