/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11171155]

Is this the most probable utopia out there? With genetic technology growing strong and a bigger awareness on ancestry and race, could this mean design babies will take over society?

I think so. George Orwell depicted a very opressive socialist society controlled by constant vigilance, war, fear and scarcity. But if you think of the logistics of such government structure it become unfeasable.
You’d need a huge chink of the population to spy on the rest and perpetual war would end up in societal collapse just like all communist countries have ended up in real life. You could argue that AI would make detecting enemies of the state easier and practically require no human labor but it still couldn’t stop a revolt when scarcity makes every hungry person an enemy.

BNW on the other hand takes into account the basics of human happiness and eliminates everything that makes humans unhappy. This results in ditching sources of hapiness like responsability or self accomplishment because those are not stable which means people might grow jealousy and resentment, both things that make people unhappy.
Hedonism is the solution to make everyone happy. Contrary to socialism, which wants everyone to be equal in every way, Huxley knew society couldn’t sustain itself without classes and used eugenics to create a stable class system that wouldn’t create resentment between them. Hipnopedia abd soma are safety valves to make sure everyone stays in their lane and keep being happy.

I kinda see this kind of society happening. We are walking towards a society that prioritizes avoiding making people uncomfortable (trigger warnings are the best example I can think off) and with design babies on the horizon we could end up with a caste system derived from genetic predisposition of the population to serve society.
Legalization of marihuana could also mean the population has a cheap drug ( Growing weed is very easy. It is considered a “weed” in my country) to take when they feel bad, just like soma.

What do you think? The only flaw is hipnopedia is fake but you could just implant socialist morals through “education” aka heavy propaganda.

[Anonymous No.11171282]

This is your brain on bugmanism

[Anonymous No.11171302]

>>11171282
I’m right wing tho.

[Anonymous No.11171312]

>>11171155
>You’d need a huge chink of the population to spy on the rest

just to note that this is very much achievable and is exactly what happened in nazi germany and the cultural revolution in maoist china, mostly because it's a great way to settle personal scores

[Anonymous No.11171316]

>>11171302
>Soma is necessary to maintain a class system
>BNW is utopian in any way and not a deeper, more horrifying hellscape than 1984 could ever be
>Pleasure is happiness
You're a leftist under the speed limit. Righists can easily be bugmen anyway, what do you think libertarianism is?

[Anonymous No.11171321]

>>11171312
You're thinking of the GDR, the Gestapo was never that big but the Stasi was fucking huge

[Anonymous No.11171338]

>>11171321
no, that's exactly the point. the gestapo was tiny because the public did most of its work for it

[Anonymous No.11171354]

>>11171316
You’re an idiot that can’t understand someone can entrrtain an idea without believing it. Yes, I think BWN would be awful, we’d practically be animals leaving our humanity behind. But that doesn’t impee me from thinking of how well thought that system is and, as a result, how could it be very posible to implement such system in the real world.

Ironically, your tribal thinking assuming my political position is one of the keys that could lead us to BNW. Intolerance to different ideas is the water to the broth of nightmarish utopias.

[Anonymous No.11171947]

>>11171155
Mandatory image

[Anonymous No.11171956]

>>11171947
OP, Hedonism is a bad thing, its what is rotting our society right now
>>11171282
This isnt leftism, this is exactly what Ancap society would be.
Think about it, liberals push for social acceptance in this style: “If it doesn’t hurt anyone its ok!” Ancaps think that anything is ok as long as it doesn’t violate the NAP.
If it doesn’t violate the NAP its ok! Feel free to jerk off in public or be a pedo, make sure the child consents tho!
Tis why I hate Individualism

[Anonymous No.11171958]

>>11171956
What in the hell happened, why did I reply to myself
>>11171155

[Anonymous No.11171962]

>>11171354
>I think BNW is a dystopia but we should implement it

[Anonymous No.11171987]

>>11171155
>A Slave can be happy.
Maybe of body, but not of soul.

We already live in a utopia for the evolving of the soul via struggle

[Anonymous No.11172007]

>>11171956
Individualism is not ancap, nor following only the NAP.

[Anonymous No.11172020]

>>11171155

This has been done to death OP. BNW is not an utopia, not for the plebs, not for the rulers. Think of the management nightmare it would be to maintain such a society in a state of ever-inertial status quo where the slightest of changes are enough to destabilize the whole thing. Huxley smears how fragile the social order on that world is right on our faces by having a single savage cause a pretty large ruckus among the higher ups. What do you think would happen if that society met an alien species or, even if we want to be exaggerate less, meet another country with different customs? They would be forced to collapse or assimilate the others completely. This doesn't look like a perfectly evolved society at all. You're literally pretending that a country stock full of bugmen is somehow going to successfully thrive in any kind of meaningful environment.

[Anonymous No.11172023]

>>11172007
Ancap is an ideology with individualism, nothing would stop societal rot in Ancapistan. I keep encountering Lolberts/AynCraps who are like “Wow look at how degenerate society is! So many gays and trannies” yet since they are AynCrap/Lolbert, they want.....even more liberty. They think the answer to liberalism and degeneracy is more liberty and economic liberalism.
Not to mention they tend to be like pic

[Anonymous No.11172025]

>>11171962
Where in my text do you infer that I want to implement it?

[Anonymous No.11172031]

>>11172025
You called it a Utopia (aka perfect society) thats very well possible to implement.
“Nightmarish Utopia” is an oxymoron

[Anonymous No.11172039]

>>11171155
Babby's first armchair political philosophising, fresh from r*ddit.

[Anonymous No.11172045]

>>11171316
He just said it was plausible, he didn't say he wanted BNW to happen

>>11171155
I've read it a week ago for the first time and I absolutely loved it. I've read a few reviews afterwards and many people say that it's boring and difficult to read, but I really don't get how, I couldn't stop reading it. The first three chapters alone are a masterpiece, could perfectly work as a short story. The whole world is so detailed and fascinating
I loved that it's not just "BNW IS BAD, SAVAGES GOOD", both ways of life have good and bad sides, I found the novel not too critical, or at least it's subtle. That conversation between the World Controller and the Savage by the end is great.

[Anonymous No.11172047]

>>11172023
You had said in the first comment I was replying to that "Tis why I hate individualism", referring to Ancap as the reason to hate. While I think we both agree that Ancaps specifically are wrong, I don't think I've ever met an Ancap or libertarian against things like trannies and gays. Them calling these people "degernate" is different, as you may think furries are degernate, but not wish to outlaw them. Essentially, social rules should be socially enforced, and not enforced by the state. Finally, even though these are branches from individualism, neither speaks of individualism itself, which I don't think can accurately be judged by two of it's substituents.

[Anonymous No.11172067]

>>11172020
What changes could destabilize the whole thing? The savage didn't change the social order, didn't change any minds nor could make a bunch of dumb deltas forgo their soma rations. It's a solid system that could be implemented in real life. That is what's so scary about it, that's it's fucking possible. This is what i tried to say but some people missinterpreted me.

>>11172031
It's a utopia as in nobody in the society wants to change it and they're HAPPY. That's what a utopia is, a society so good everyone is happy and nobody wants to improve it because you can't improve an utopia, it's already the utopia.

When I say "nightmarish" is because utopia is impossible even in a fictional way. To make a society perfect you have to sacrifice human aspects for the greater good. The only utopia that still has people believing in it is socialism (everyone is equal economically, socially and politically) and that too would be nightmarish if it worked (which it doesn't).

>>11172045
Read it this week too, and enjoyed it a lot. The plot is not that good but you know the true protagonists of the novel is the world per se, characters are just a vehicle for the author to explore such an intriguing world.

What I loved about the book, and I said in the initial post, is that such a society is possible, more so with the advances in genetics that we have today. We could end up engineering classes manipulating genes forcing the best way to control the population, since the moment they're formed.

I think it's the best prediction of what nightmare we could end up being forced to. Farenheit 451 is just trash compared to BNW even though the idea of infantile adults is the same and 1984 is an impossible nightmare that maybe could work in a world where AI is way more intelligent than us.

[Anonymous No.11172074]

>>11172047
I hate individualism due to how its just self worship, lol who cares that your society and culture is rotting turning into hedonism and consumerism? Just care about yourself xddddd.
Thats why I hate it, and thus hate ideologies that incorporate it. Every individualist I have met was someone who only gives a shit about what affects them, from Boomers to even one Egoist......who defended CP and Pedophilia.
>I don’t think I have met any lolbert who is against gays and trannies
/pol/, there is also the Hoppeans.
>social rules should be socially enforced
Yet this doesn’t stop society from becoming rotted and degenerate, how the fuck can a rotted society suddenly fix itself? Its why im Authoritarian.
Also, what im saying is they tend to claim that they are against liberalism and degeneracy yet they indulge in what they oppose.

[Anonymous No.11172081]

>>11171947
After reading the book, I can say that this image missrepresents BNW.

None of those things would work if the proper eugenic and hipnopedic control wasn't there.

[Anonymous No.11172082]

>>11172067
So you think just because everyone is happy its a good thing. Are you an unironic Hedonist

[Anonymous No.11172086]

>>11172082
I'm not an hedonist, you tool. I'm a guy with more than two braincells to understand what a utopia is and why we don't want it.

[Anonymous No.11172092]

>>11172086
Are you just unaware the word “Dystopia” exists

[Anonymous No.11172094]

>>11172082
>So you think just because everyone is happy its a good thing
no I think everyone should suffer for the glory of the Führer

[Anonymous No.11172109]

>>11172074
>I hate individualism due to how its just self worship, lol who cares that your society and culture is rotting turning into hedonism and consumerism? Just care about yourself xddddd.
Individualism is not the advocacy of selfishness, but the belief that individuals should be judged individually, and judged by merit.
>Thats why I hate it, and thus hate ideologies that incorporate it. Every individualist I have met was someone who only gives a shit about what affects them, from Boomers to even one Egoist......who defended CP and Pedophilia.
While it is anecdotal I have to agree. Most individualists care primarily about themselves and their families. I am not sure that changes much if you go to other groups, though.
>/pol/, there is also the Hoppeans.
/Pol/'s political views aren't really relevant, and should not determine the judgment of an entire line of thought. If they really want laws in place to stop this stuff, then they aren't Ancap/libertarian
>Yet this doesn’t stop society from becoming rotted and degenerate, how the fuck can a rotted society suddenly fix itself? Its why im Authoritarian.
Again, they never planned to stop degeneracy, only to make a society function in spite of it.
>Also, what im saying is they tend to claim that they are against liberalism and degeneracy yet they indulge in what they oppose.
There are hypocrites in every group.

[Anonymous No.11172128]

>>11172086
>>11172092
I want to give you guys a third option.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeMzg31T2I

[Anonymous No.11172129]

>>11172067
>The plot is not that good but you know the true protagonists of the novel is the world per se, characters are just a vehicle for the author to explore such an intriguing world.
What I found interesting is that the novel is fairly unpredictable with what it does with its characters.
You're introduced with Bernard and Lenina, and spontaneously you're thinking "okay, Bernard feels out of place in this world, and it's gonna be about the love story between them and how they will escape this world, etc". But their relationship doesn't work at all, and they're both unable to actually change at all. Bernard, even though he has a mindset different from the other members of this society, is still completely part of that society, even if he calls bullshit he still can't escape it.

And then you'd think it's gonna be about a love story between Lenina and John, but same thing, it doesn't work either.
There's not really a main character in that story, you'd think it's Bernard but he isn't really, and then you'd think it's John but he isn't exactly either. But yes as you said, the main character IS the vast world Huxley created.

I found that the novel ending with John killing himself was a little on the nose, but there wasn't a moment where I got bored reading it. Maybe it's because I'm not used to this genre (haven't read 1984 yet, but from what I've heard I don't think I'll like it as much as BNW) but I found it absolutely fascinating.
I wouldn't say it is exactly believable to have a world like this happen one day, I don't think you're supposed to take it all literally, but it does make you wonder about a lot of things.

[Anonymous No.11172132]

>>11172092
I wouldn't call BNW a dystopia desu. If we're that picky with definitions then even utopias are distopias since they're thought up by people only thinking in their biases and ignore all the other shit that'd make the society a nightmare to live in.

In the socialism perfect utopia everyone would be equal economically, socially and politically. That'd be a nightmare if you put yourself into it for a second. Even if you're a socialist to the core, you'd hate to live in a society where everyone is equal and you can't be different in any way. What's good about having a sports car if everyone has one, what's good about food if everyone is eating the same?

[Anonymous No.11172136]

>>11172109
They dont want laws in place, they just view it as bad or disgusting, yet they just want a system that would let the degenerate plague to continue.
If they don’t want it to be stopped they should shut the fuck up and quit crying about something they wont try and stop. I love mocking these types about it.
>Individualism is the belief that people should be judged individually and by merit
Guess this confirms every individualist i met was a retard

[Anonymous No.11172157]

>>11172136
>They don't want laws in place
>If they don’t want it to be stopped they should shut the fuck up and quit crying about something they wont try and stop.
Things are socially enforced by talking about them in a negative light, and discouraging the people from doing those things. No, they don't want laws, because if you force laws stunting bad behavior, too often the state overreaches and covers fine behavior as well. It is much easier, more efficient, and safe to have negative social behavior discouraged by those close to the perpetrator, rather than the state.

[Anonymous No.11172159]

>>11172132
so you only view 1984 as a dystopia because you hate communism yet is perfectly fine with brave new world having a populace being slaves to consumerism, not seeking self betterment, just wanting more dopamine release.
Orwell was an Anarcho-Communist.

[Anonymous No.11172167]

>>11172159
>self betterment
American meme

[Anonymous No.11172178]

>>11172159
I don't really know if you're trolling me or you're just too thick to understand my position.

I don't like BNW. I even consider BNW the closest to communism you could achieve in real life even if it violates some of their principles.

What I say is that is the most possible system that could be implemented in real life. It's the more feasable, the one that could actually happen in a few decades. Taht's what i find INTERESTING about it, I don't want to implement such system because it'd destroy our humanity and I particulary like my humanity. I also like art and that's forbidden in BNW.

Orwell was a communist until he went to catalonia (I'm actually catalan btw) and saw what the republicans (the communist of the civil war) did. He realized what an oppressive system it is and wrote 1984 to explain what communists would do.

[Anonymous No.11172194]

>>11171155
>utopia
>>>/r/eddit

[Anonymous No.11172232]

>>11171155
I genuinely don't understand how anyone can look at contemporary society, then read BNW and think "yep, this is where we're heading". Not that there aren't some (tenuous, imo) parallels, but they are so wildly different.

[Anonymous No.11172235]

>>11171155
how about the fact that climate is shit pollution is bad, gmo is destroying the soul of crops and cattle and everything looks like it really wants to expire

I mean, design babies we're not gona see kids with horns or snake eyes within 100 years bruv, sorry.

[Anonymous No.11172244]

>>11171155
>>11172235
>year 2218
>Can my kids have cat eyes?
>Not yet, sorry anon
>2/10 breakthrough

[Anonymous No.11172247]

>>11172235
>gmo is destroying the soul of crops and cattle

[Anonymous No.11172256]

>>11172247
doesn't know caged cattle milk has the cows revenge inside it pushing us down in karma levels of the universe

[Anonymous No.11172262]

>>11172256
o-ok