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/lit/ - Literature

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11165935 No.11165935 [Reply] [Original]

Wagner was the epitome of Romanticism, Romanticism being the peak of aesthetics in all fields of art, music, architecture and literature.

If you don't aspire towards achieving Wagnerian aesthetics you're doing something wrong.

>> No.11166002

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

>> No.11166022

>>11165935
Greatest artist of all time in any medium. Prove me wrong faggots

>> No.11166027

hey man- dont cramp the style of romanticism like that... youre acting very lame

>> No.11166029

>>11166022
oh even worse... please- this doesnt look good....

>> No.11166032

>>11166022
who's number 2?

>> No.11166038

>>11166032
Shakespeare obviously. Followed closely by Keats and Bach.

>> No.11166045
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11166045

delet this thread

>> No.11166053
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11166053

>>11166038
patrician choices

charles murray asked me to post his book in this thread, so, i'm doing it

>> No.11166059

>>11166038
I'd put Shakespeare, Wagner and Goethe as the greatest artists.

>> No.11166063

>>11166045
Came here to post this

>> No.11166069

>>11166045
Wagner defeated Nietzsche in public debate after their fallout.

>> No.11166076

>>11166045
Virgin Nietzsche versus Chad Wagner

>Virgin Nietzsche writes autistic long winded books about how he's Uebermensch

>Chad Wagner literally was the Uebermensch

>> No.11166145

>>11166029
I forgive you for your bad taste

Thread theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6lRoIlXzdU

>> No.11166148
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11166148

>>11165935
>Romanticism being the peak of aesthetics in all fields of art

>> No.11166158

>>11166148
If not that, then what?

>> No.11166166

>>11166158
Literally everything else

>> No.11166214
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11166214

>>11165935
>peak aesthetics
>literal neckbeard
Nice try, Wagner.

>> No.11166218

>>11166166
200 BC Congo had better aesthetics then Romanticism?

>> No.11166232
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11166232

>>11165935
If I may quote Strauss:

>I don't recall Chopin hungering for YOUR dick, Wagner!

>> No.11166246

>>11166045
If you dont really know about the wagner-nietzsche relationship, then fuck off

>> No.11166276

>>11166022
It's either him or Dante as far as I'm concerned. His music is easily the greatest ever conceived by the human imagination.

>> No.11166280

>>11165935
Youre literally paraphrasing Birth of Tragedy, Nietzsche's first and worst book, one that he himself admitted to being embarrassed of. Even N, with his life affirming philosophy, would want OP to kill himself

>> No.11166290

N. was a tsundere against Wagner. If you do not like Wagner because N. 'didnt do so', kys, because 1) you dont understand N. himself, 2) you are basically a stupid sheep who cant appreciate Wagner and at the same time you dont understand N.'s philosophy. If any of you actually start reading books about N. and Wagner you would understand their relationship were quite complicated

>> No.11166293

Wagner and Romanticism are the beginning of tasteless firetruckery that would find its peak in gaudy Academicism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27art_pompier
>>11166038
Shut the fuck up you middlebrow pajeet.

>> No.11166306

>>11166022
>Mozart
>Schubert
>Berlioz
>Richard Strauss
all better anon..

>> No.11166314

Wagner needed an editor, though somewhat contradictorily my favourite work of his is Meistersinger. I much prefer Mahler anyway, Der Abschied alone is a more powerful expression than anything Wagner could come up with, and Mahler was by far the superior orchestrator and composer.

>> No.11166315

>>11166038
I actually doubt you really appreciate Bach and Shakes because you included them with wagner, probably just great names to you.... just stop posting

>> No.11166320
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11166320

>>11166293
>Wagner and Romanticism are the beginning of tasteless firetruckery
Blaming romanticism because it circuitously lead to bad, insincere academic art is like blaming medieval stonemasons for gaudy neo-Gothic architecture. A poor imitation doesn't debase what it's imitating.

>pajeet
FEATHER
NOT
DOT

>> No.11166321

>>11166315
The same with, just about wagner

>> No.11166330

>>11166293
Wat. Art pompier has nothing to do with romanticism (which is to blame for the existence of everything that is melodramatic, feel-good and overly emotional anyway)

>> No.11166341

>>11166315
Irrational dislike of Wagner is a post-WWII phenomenon, let's be fucking real for a second. My opinion wouldn't have been out of place among the modernists.

>> No.11166490

>>11165935
Romanticism was the beginning of the end for art you dumb pleb.

>> No.11166497

>>11166038
where does mangum rank?

>> No.11166498

>>11166341
Whereas rational dislike of Wagner is a thing as old as Wagner himself.

>> No.11166502

>>11166341
I don't think the modernists went in for opera though i may be wrong. Opera is an objectively shit genre however (like film) but admittedly Wagner was the Tarkovsky of opera. Also, Andrei Rublev is the peak work of art in any non-book medium, better than anyting by Wagner.

>> No.11166530

>>11166148
>>11166293
>>11166490
I mean, I wouldn't say the peak, but these dismissals are brainlet.

Romanticism was a worthy response to the rise of industrial civilization, amongst other things. If anything, at this point we need a reactionary movement to respond to the digital revolution and its unleashed commodification of the mind and society, desu... in much the same way that the Romantics recoiled with horror at the commodification of nature and the urban regimenting of humanity.

>> No.11166556

>>11166530
If at any time you are conflating art and bourgeois politics you have already lost.

>> No.11166560

>>11166502
Modernist opera is a thing. Schoenberg, Berg, Stravinsky, Bartók, Zimmermann, among others, composed excellent opera.

>> No.11166573

Yeah, Wagner makes me hard. Thank God for vocal scores, I torture my neighbors with Valhalla motiv couple of times a day

>> No.11166587

>>11166530
>Romanticism was a worthy response to the rise of industrial civilization
It's shit anyway. Even abstract impressionism is better than the lascivious, unthinking, pripiac, melodramatic mess that was romanticism.
>we need a reactionary movement to respond to the digital revolution and its unleashed commodification of the mind and society, desu
le ebin aristocrats of the soul

>> No.11166602

>>11166560
Damn i forgot about Woyzeck

>> No.11166614

>>11166602
I wonder how it became a commercial success, I mean, it's atonal after all. Weimar Germany must have been decadent af

>> No.11166625

>>11166148
>implying that isn't 100% accurate

>> No.11166626
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11166626

>>11166614
Germans are bleak and strange people. See Dürer for instance and that was ages before Weimar decadence.

>> No.11166629

>>11166614
"Atonal" doesn't tell you much about the music as music, only that it is non-diatonic and likely non-triadic. A vast spectrum of stylistic and expressive possibility still exists there, which is why Berg and Schoenberg sound very different to one another, and why serial Stravinsky sounds nothing like serial Webern. Why, furthermore, even the Darmstadt composers at their most dogmatic were different from each other, and why they also sound nothing like Babbitt.

>> No.11166649

>>11166629
You seem knowledgeable any contemporary music recommendations? I have been listening to Kraftwerk a lot lately I love how they embrace the spirit of their age. Amor Fati.

>> No.11166666

>>11166625
Why is it accurate?

>> No.11166670

>>11165935
>Wagner
overrated hack

>> No.11166671

>>11166587
>I’m a soulless bugman and I’m proud!

>> No.11166679
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11166679

>>11166671
>not appreciating melodramatic self indulgent gargabe means you're a soulless bugman
Hello r*ddit, how is your day going? Reread flowers for algernon recently?

>> No.11166699

>>11166670
Wow, btfo'd !

>> No.11166716
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11166716

>people outside /classical/ discussing music
Errytime. Now fuck off with your Mozart underrating

>> No.11166729

>>11165935
This gunna get delete

>> No.11166743

Sorry, but I believe "peak aesthetics" is Japanese Haiku written on bamboo slips and shared exclusively among an inner circle of friends joined by a sensitive understanding of the beauty of the world.
Not the big circus emotional wankery that is romanticism lol.

>> No.11166752
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11166752

>>11166743
This is exactly how i feel. Wish we could drink Suntory beneathe the full moon my brother.

>> No.11166753

>>11166649
Not on the basis of liking Kraftwerk. I mean, if you're just asking about "classical" electronic music then Stockhausen is probably the place to start. His most synthesiser heavy piece is Oktophonie, which was part of his work in spatial composition (obviously doesn't translate with full effect to a stereo presentation, but I don't think there is a commercially available surround mix).

>> No.11166759

>>11166679
>>11166587
This.
Romantards, listen to this and explain to me what the FUCK happens at 2:06 and how it is in any way a legitimate musical development of the sweet and nostalgic melody that comes before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wslm1ZL9EI8

>> No.11166760

>>11166743
>haiku

pleb, try renku

>> No.11166769

>>11166716
You must be new to music theory

>> No.11166772

>>11166753
That is a very compelling recommendation (thanks)

>> No.11166786

>>11166649
I like this guy
https://youtu.be/meDkqegJIqk

>> No.11166787

This is truly aesthetic music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYlEo0hbPEM
This isn't:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAyUzxDB9eE

>> No.11166853

>>11165935
>>>/pol/
Fuck of with this anti-semite, there is a good reason why he is still controversial in Israel.

>> No.11166866

>>11165935
>>11166022
Concurring with this powerful truth.

Here are some WAGNER recommended reads BTW:

https://fivebooks.com/best-books/wagner/

I also strongly personally recommend the WAGNER books by Bryan Magee and Roger Scruton.

Essential and intellectual reads.

>> No.11166908

>>11166769
>further proof
The more you know about music theory the more you like Mozart.

>> No.11166918

>>11165935
if you are going to fall for the naive romanticism meme, you might as well write genre fiction, you are going to be a pleb either way, so why not try to make some money while being a pleb?

>> No.11167034

>>11166853
>muh antisemitism
>muh israel

Go such some more yid cock

>> No.11167267

>>11166218
2018 AD Congo does too

>> No.11167327

>>11166022
I simply can't. You are incontestably and supremely in the right.

>> No.11167558

>>11167034
/pol/ newfags need to fuck off.

>> No.11167563

>>11166069
Nietzsche won the literary battle. Literature is the more important battle to win.

>> No.11167595

>>11166158

Expressionism

>> No.11167602

>>11165935
>Romanticism being the peak of aesthetics in all fields of art, music, architecture and literature.
Lmao

>> No.11167606

>>11166158
Barroque

>> No.11167671

>>11166759
Are you implying that what comes before 2:06 isn't a romantic piece?

>> No.11167923

>>11167267
t. modernist filth

>> No.11167986

>>11166699
please every average movie or game composer today is miles better than classics composers.
this music is extremely outdated.

>> No.11168019

Wagner was a prototype for mass media, and thus for the abuse of art by the state for propaganda, and the vulgarization of art by the marketplace for commercial gain. The "gesamtkunstwerk" is an obese manchild wearing VR goggles, member sheathed in a fleshlight, fucking a digital Japanese highschool girl as part of a scifi game that takes 3 years to complete.

>> No.11168031

>>11167986
The average movie or game composer does little more than repurpose classical music.

>> No.11168056

>>11165935
>Romanticism being the peak of aesthetics
Ok, but Mahler did it better
Tbh the "Total Work of Art" is based, but otherwise Wagner is kinda overwrought

>> No.11168066

>>11167986
excellent bait. More is happening in one measure of Tristan than in all Hans Zimmer's soundtracks

>> No.11168101
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11168101

>>11168056
>Mahler did it better
>Wagner is kinda overwrought

>> No.11168108

>>11168066
To his credit, he said average soundtrack composer. Zimmer is far below that.

>> No.11168357

>>11167986
What did he mean by this

>> No.11168376

>>11166626
>doesnt even post Dürers own drawing

>> No.11168389
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11168389

>>11165935
>aspiring towards aesthetics at all

>> No.11168425

>>11166306
Agree with this anon except for Berlioz. His Fantastique is all around a good work but it only matches Wagner's Tristan, speaking no more of Parsifal and Siegfried. Schubert though is the ideal Romantic, in some ways on the very opposite side of Wagner. I'm all for music theory and all but if only Wagner's works could sound as 1/10th as "good" as Schubert's

>> No.11168551

>>11168056
Even Mahler would slap you for saying that

>> No.11168571
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11168571

>>11165935
He was FUCKING BASED

>> No.11168584

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuPDMhyGKB8

How is it even possible for music to be this good. It just blows my mind every time I hear it.

>> No.11168609

>>11168584
https://youtu.be/pzwcuOFfKNw
try Parsifal dude

>> No.11168617

>>11166218
Yes

>> No.11168707

>>11168101
>Performing the Ring Cycle takes days if you do it right
Wagner is really good, but even if you're the best in the world that's indulgent

>> No.11168958

>>11168425
What are your thought on La Damnation de Faust

>> No.11169045
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11169045

this here is some of the finest 25 minutes music ever created

>> No.11169180

>>11168571
>plastic demon
What did he mean by this?
I agree they are demons, but what about plasticity?

>> No.11169216

Okay Wagner specialists. Recommend me some best books on him, can be purely musical analysis, biography or librettos analysis

>> No.11169234

>>11169216
I Saw the World End
In Search of Wagner if you want something more critical.

>> No.11169238

>>11169216
Das Judenthum in der Musik

>> No.11169239

>>11169234
Shaw's The Perfect Wagnerite is also a pretty neat interpretation.

>> No.11169248

>>11169045
Nothing will ever top the Liebestod when heard in context

>> No.11169262
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11169262

>>11166760
By the way, Borges wrote some pretty nice Tanka.

>> No.11169311

>>11169216
The Wagner Operas by Ernest Newman. It's the go to for people trying to break into Wagner's world.

>> No.11169325

>>11166145
the point was we had the same taste you absolute imbecile... atleast take off the trip..

>> No.11169327

>>11167563
Faggot

>> No.11169330

>>11166679
>melodramatic self indulgent gargabe
how is it even possible to be this much of a soiboi

>> No.11169373

How does one get into Wagner? Should I watch or just listen to his Operas? If I should watch, where to find good recordings? Also, from which Opera should I start from? I dislike Sigfriend idyll but love the Tristan und Isolde prelude.

>> No.11169425

>>11169373
Don't be a bitch and start at the Golden Rhine. First part of the Ring Cycle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiyoLa9z1ao

>> No.11169437

>>11169425
aaah those e flat double basses make me hard

>> No.11169690

>>11166022
DANTE
MONTEVERDI
PIER DELLA FRANCESCA
DIEGO VELAZQUEZ
MIGUEL DE CERVANTES

You want a Romantic?

GIACOMO LEOPARDI
CHARLES BAUDELAIRE (who admired Wagner, but surpassed him)

Now stop trying to Germanize the Canon, learn some Latin, and be a man.

>> No.11169717

>>11169690
(By the way, I only didn't mention Giuseppe Verdi because I know that would leave you in great pain amid your complete lack of arguments. Refrain yourself from readiing what Stravinsky wrote on the matter, lest you start crying a little. Wagner searched emotions he didn't have to put them inside the notes he had; Verdi had emotions that generated musical scores by means of divine Mediterranean influence.)

>> No.11169739

>>11169690
>CHARLES BAUDELAIRE (who admired Wagner, but surpassed him)
No French artist has surpassed anyone else in anything. They're always the bottom of the barrel.

>> No.11169756

But those dudes have give something to society for real? Yeah they created music that "now" are considered classics but who cares, they arent relevant.
Artist like Gambino would pass to history for they social impact and grond breaking art and he can't even read music and acts in literally Star Wars, he is probably more happy than any of those meme classic that you guys named

>> No.11169764

>>11169756
shit bait. try again.

>> No.11169801

>>11169690
>>11169717
Woah, imagine actually thinking that Verdi's parochial, banal proto-musicals are in any way significant to anyone with a modicum of taste

>> No.11169853

It's so fucking dumb

>> No.11170040

Romantic art is the best.

>> No.11170106

>>11169801
This is the opinion of a fucking retard, please reconsider.

>> No.11170151
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11170151

>>11166022
Easy.

>pic related

Greatest musical genius ever to grace the earth! (And I bet most of you faggots never even heard of him!)

>> No.11170180

>>11170151
>Greatest musical genius
>a guitarist
Highly unlikely

>> No.11170193

Who else /enjoysallgenresofmusic/ here?

>> No.11170228

>>11170180
>Highly unlikely

Confirmed to never have listened to Holdsworth, Stay ignorant , or listen to some kind of most spetacular music display you will ever listen :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO3o484Z2OU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNAHOcZ6NxM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkWAbnvgF3Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWU_yFFsNtc

>> No.11170641

>>11170193
It would be true but I have yet to encounter any reggae that isn't musically bankrupt.

>> No.11170670

>>11170228
guitar center noodling != music

>> No.11170711

>>11170670
(You)

>> No.11170918
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11170918

>>11170228
Reminds me of classes at Berklee. Impressive theoretical knowledge but conveys no emotion, it doesn't help the guitar tone is horrid. Could you really say his musical genius surpasses Bach? I understand gawking at an under-appreciated musician but retain your honesty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePPMrX4YtkM

>> No.11171154

>>11170151
>>11170228
Hahaha jesus christ he isn't even a good guitarist

>> No.11171163
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11171163

>>11169690
Some people really are stupid.

>> No.11171351

The Marriage of Figaro is better than any Wagner opera. Actually has jokes for a start

>> No.11171367

>>11166908
No, the more you think you know about music theory the more you like Mozart.

>> No.11171384

>>11171367
>additional evidence Wolfie is not considered as highly as he might be

>> No.11171414

>>11171384
Everyone has a Mozart phase my man

>> No.11171419

>>11171351
Wagner wasn't trying to be humorous. Either way, if you want comedy then Bartered Bride is the best.

>> No.11171527

>>11171351
FPTMIO

>> No.11171539

>>11171419
>Wagner wasn't trying to be humorous
I know. It's a huge flaw in his work. Dreadful 19th century seriousness instead of playful whimsy.

>> No.11171540
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11171540

>I'm a Bog and Fagnerd fan
>I rate teutonic monstrosities as a music

>> No.11171544

>>11171351
congratulations, you discovered that Wagner was german

>> No.11171549

>>11171539
>He doesn't know Die Meistersinger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6n2TUIPctA

>> No.11171597

>>11167595
Nope

>> No.11171663

>>11171549
Mastersingers is the ultimate example
>let's try something light and frothy
>it's five hours long
>there aren't any jokes
It's a shame he never really managed a good comic opera, because comedy is always better than tragedy.

>> No.11172126

>>11166587
>using the term “melodramatic” as a pejorative rather than a descriptive term

Basically short-hand for “I’m an ignorant pleb”.

>> No.11172151
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11172151

>peak of aesthetics

>> No.11172825

>>11170918
>Impressive theoretical knowledge but conveys no emotion, it doesn't help the guitar tone is horrid. Could you really say his musical genius surpasses Bach?
You do understand that Bach was before people conceived of music as emotional expression right? Like Bach was extremely technical, lots of his work is essentially him just stunting, showing off how complex of a peice he can still make work. He wouldn't have been thinking about his personal expression, and neither would his audiences, that comes a little later in music history. In his time music was still deeply entwined with the church and religious expression.
Personally, I agree with you. But Bach is not a good example, and there are plenty of musical traditions that don't conceive of themselves as a personal expression

>> No.11172903

>>11172825
If you think Bach existed in a time before "personal expression" then you clearly haven't encountered Froberger or Gesualdo, both of whom predate Bach.

>> No.11172925

>>11172903
Froberger wrote mostly dances and program music to my knowledge.
Gesualdo wasnt very widely known until after his death, though musically he is very expressive and way ahead of his time. Certainly he counts as one of the pioneers of the idea, but it doesn't really catch until later.
Regardless, Bach was writing almost entirely religious music during his life

>> No.11172952

stfu this isnt /mu/
also JSB's "Sheep may safely graze"
and BWV582 and violin sonatas are more emotionally expressive than anything wagner ever wrote.

>> No.11174064
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11174064

>>11172825
>When you paint, try to put down exactly what you see. Whatever else you have to offer will come out anyway.
Bach didn't need to conceive of music as an emotional expression for it to unintentionally be absorbed in his emotional depth. I see your point as to the timeline of music history, but I think a piece doesn't have to be made as an emotional expression for it to be so regardless.

>> No.11174075

>>11172825
also the point was that Bach surpasses that guitarist in theoretical knowledge and complexity AND in emotion, yet the OP was putting him forth as the greatest of all time.

>> No.11175923

>>11172925
If "Meditation sur ma mort future" is not an example of Froberger at the very least believing he was expressing himself, then I don't know what your criteria is. The other pieces Froberger wrote "on" death are similarly unique among instrumental music of his time. And Bach definitely knew Froberger's music.

For Bach, to praise God was the purpose of music. He expressed his musical philosophy in every work, from passions to the pedagogical notebooks. Personal expression is largely a matter of intent, and certainly not determined by level of romantic sentiment. Given also his rather controversial view of what it was to be a church organist, it seems that personal expression was essential to Bach.

>> No.11175948

>>11171663
>comedy is always better than tragedy

The reverse is true, because tragedy is more overwhelmingly joyful than comedy.

>> No.11176108

>>11166306
>Mozart
yes
>Schubert
arguable. Schubert is quite good but also quite problematic; bloated, meandering, and too repetitive (inb4 Wagner is just as bad)
>Berlioz
lol no
>Strauss
aside from Elektra he doesn't really compete at all.
>>11169801
Verdi is quite great, actually. not as good as Wagner in my affections but Verdi was incredibly versatile -- more so than Wagner, I'd argue -- and a million times more concise. however the content of his operatic compositions is oft boring and while he's more consistent he doesn't quite reach the apex that Wagner is capable of.
>>11166293
that would be Berlioz, actually.
>>11166614
Wozzeck isn't strictly atonal at all.
>>11169373
Tristan is probably his most accessible opera.
>>11171540
hi bogfag i miss you