/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11146764]

How can we further diversity in literature and make literally spaces more welcoming to marginalized folks such as women queers and people of color? Is the idea of timeless classics just a cover for unsavory ideas about eurocentrism, consent women's agency? How can we make the literary canon more inclusive for people of different backgrounds who don't see themselves represented in literature? I know I'm on 4chan but it is important to fight reaction and start mainstreaming these conversations even in the heavily white cishet and male spaces that are most hostile to them.
>As theatre company RashDash recognise, a certain legitimacy comes with the dramatic canon, ensuring some plays get staged again and again. When artistic directors started suggesting to RashDash that doing a classic could be a way of moving up in scale, they took it as a provocation. “It felt a shame that to be taken seriously, given more money, a bigger platform, we would have to be essentially saying the words of a dead white man,” says Helen Goalen. Their response was to take on Chekhov’s Three Sisters and question the values it represents.
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2018/may/08/theatre-reinventing-stage-classics-with-attitude-gender-politics

[sage™ No.11146777]

[Anonymous No.11146781]

To be more inclusive we would absolutely have to make university free and mandatory. Anything else is mere lip service

[Anonymous No.11146785]

>>11146777
What if OP is coming from a place of genuine empathy and goodwill towards the most marginalized in society?

[Anonymous No.11146832]

>>11146781
yes, but you will have to be in denial to ignore the myriad often subtle ways gender race and identity impact folks' lives. It's easy for a 'brocialist' white dude to say 'I don't see race' never mind people like you have been benefiting from implicit AND explicit bias for the last 500 years. What is wrong with fairness and equity?

[Anonymous No.11146847]

Good thread. I think an easy first step would be to properly acknowledge the minority female writers we already have such as Shakespeare. Shakespeare would have much broader appeal and acceptance if people knew the truth about her rather than the often repeated lies

[Anonymous No.11146893]

Stop identifying with contingent and ultimately arbitrary properties and cultivate your soul.

You know why these guys are in the canon? Because they had a higher and more mature understanding of the human that doesn't reduce to a readout of features for a diversity focus group.

Stop equating diversity with artistic and intellectual maturity. It's the complete opposite. You want to One Race, The Human Race but assume irreducible differences between how two people with different skin colors see and communicate the world. You want oneness and brotherhood, but cling to your plurality of narratives like mommy's tit. Do some real fucking inner work you gob.

[Anonymous No.11146935]

>>11146847
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAA

IS THIS WHAT LIBERALS ACUTALLY THINK?!?!?!? ARE YOU A LITERAL FUCKIGN RETARD? SHAKESPEARE WAS A WHITE MAN, A CONSERVATIVE BY TODAY STANDARDS, HE WOULD'VE HATED NONWHTIES IN WESTERN COUNTRIES AND WOMEN OUT OF THE KITCHEN

[Anonymous No.11146974]

>>11146847
Weak bait

>>11146935
good bait

[Anonymous No.11146983]

>>11146893
>A higher and more mature understanding of the human
Conrad was a racist, Shakespeare's taming of the shrew is pure misogyny, as were Plato an Aristotle can you imagine the humiliation marginalized folks feel when these dead white men are held up as having a 'higher and more mature understanding of the human'? The effects of racism and bias are really fucking real, as a white dude you can be sure bosses, cops and random people on the street will always assume the best of you. The truth is universality is often just an alibi for unexamined white male supremacy

[Anonymous No.11146996]

>>11146832
Most racists are uneducated rural retards so it would help both ways

[Anonymous No.11147004]

>>11146983
You want these men to adhere to a flash-in-the-pan morality that they predate by 2000+ years. Your mistake was to assume someone's understanding of reality boils down to what they think about niggers. Your mind is small and shallow and unstimulating.

[Anonymous No.11147006]

>>11146935
>shakespeare
you mean the guy who wrote the play about the heroic muslim african who has his interracial romance spoiled by an evil white male

[Anonymous No.11147029]

>>11146996
racist/patriarchal/phobic/ slut shaming assumptions have nothing to do with education, we are all racist and racism permeates every single aspect of our culture. There are no holy cows when people are dying out thereevery single day due to these systems of oppression. we all have to be on the lookout for racism and deconstruct our own deeply held assumptions and beliefs. You can start by LISTENING to marginalized folks for once.

[Anonymous No.11147034]

>>11147006
I think you mean the play about a whitebois unrequited need for a bbc

[Anonymous No.11147046]

>>11147029
I listen to kanye's music pretty much once a week

[Anonymous No.11147050]

>>11147004
Its not a flash in the pan, people who aren't poet class heterosexual white males are finally taken seriously and treated like humans for once and that makes you feel threatened because you are afraid of loosing your unearned status

[Anonymous No.11147052]

"eurocentric" is possibly the dumbest complaint when discussing any literature written in English or a European language.

[Anonymous No.11147067]

>>11147050
Nah, just minorities and "marginalized" groups are too lazy to read themselves or support their own, so they are making demands on straight Anglo audiences instead. Why build when you can leech.

[Anonymous No.11147104]

>>11146764
Day of the rope when?

[Anonymous No.11147124]

>>11147050
Its hard to take status away from me because I dont have any. Trying to take it away from the greats because theyre white and may have been racist or w/e is just silly.

[Anonymous No.11147127]

>>11146764
>Their response was to take on Chekhov’s Three Sisters and question the values it represents.
>Chekhov’s Three Sisters and question the values it represents.
lmao dumb niggers

[Anonymous No.11147130]

>>11147050
Nope, you are as much a son of your time as Plato or Aristotle, you're just too unself-aware to see it. You derive your self-worth and moral satisfaction from infantalizing grown ass human beings. And I have no unearned status, my family is a family of immigrants.

[Anonymous No.11147137]

>>11147130
*white immigrants

[Anonymous No.11147142]

>>11147137
Frankly, I got enough problems without having to cry about niggers. Crying about the underprivileged is a privilege.

[Anonymous No.11147144]

>>11147050
If meritocracy is inherently racist like CRT insists then how can status be earned?

[Anonymous No.11147149]

>>11147142
/thread

[Anonymous No.11147153]

>>11146764
Look. it doesn't matter about the author as long as the story is good. However the people who are marginalized are the ones to only talk about being marginalized (write what you know i guess). If somehow there were minorities that would make stories that aren't just about being a minority (nectar in the sieve, fences, etc.) then they would get more respect from us.

[Anonymous No.11147161]

>>11146785
https://www.nationalreview.com/g-file/quests-important-for-courageous-stands-great-causes/

[Anonymous No.11147165]

>>11147153
N-Nick?

[Anonymous No.11147191]

>>11147165
no
who's nick?

[Anonymous No.11147193]

Identity politics is regressive and bigoted when you break down its core tenets and supposed aims. For all its talk of inclusion it still treats whites as exceptional in the social sphere. For all its egalitarian posturing it's logic hinges on the presumed superiority of whites at all times in all spheres.

How else do you explain an ideology that insists that white people alone have a responsibility to embrace all cultures? Whites are, again, exceptional. They must follow a unique paradigm while the rest of mankind must be guided by them. It is the white savior narrative given new life, recast from a tough but fair paternal figure to the kind and nurturing maternal figure. The same old bigotry with a soft face lift: non-whites cannot be held to the same standard that whites hold themselves to. In either case non-whites are seen as children. In the old paradigm this meant bossing them around "for their own good", but in the new order it means exempting them from accountability, since if the child is a mess it is the parents' fault, naturally. And whites see it natural that they fit the role of parent to the other races of the world, the responsibility for nurturing and atoning for evil is theirs alone, for no other race is accountable in the face of overwhelming white superiority.

It really isn't that mysterious or complicated to think about. Identity politics is built on the divisive belief that race, sex, sexuality, religion and so on create immutable, irreparable differences between people. This gives them unique, inimitable experiences. To even attempt to understand an experience outside your own is offensive and demeaning to those you are trying to understand. The irony of this belief, which completely undermines the purpose of reading and writing literature, is at the core of identity politics and the new white man's burden. Is it any wonder that modern literature is fucked?

[Anonymous No.11147195]

>>11147191
the guy in your image looks just like Nick Rochefort

[Anonymous No.11147200]

>>11147195
oh okay

[Sage No.11147204]

>>11146764
genocide your self you disgusting subhuman animal

[Anonymous No.11147230]

>>11146764
The concepts of racial diversity, feminism, sexual liberation, and homosexual and transgender acceptance and tolerance are all intrinsically eurocentric and promote western hegemony and imperialism. Checkmate.

[Anonymous No.11147246]

>>11147193
Opposition to 'identity politics' is just implicit identity politics of the hegemonic majority. You don't realize you are the default

[Anonymous No.11147263]

>>11147050
Psychoanalysis was a mistake.

[Anonymous No.11147292]

>>11147246
>you're with us or against us

Please stop.

[Anonymous No.11147306]

>>11146764
I know this is bait but fuck you anyway

[Anonymous No.11147351]

>>11147292
>implying there ca be any compromise with fascism and white supremacy

[Anonymous No.11147352]

>>11146764
As a straight white male I don't feel like I've ever seen a character representative of myself in literature.
>b-but the majority of characters ARE straight, white men!
Straight white man is not my identity, it is not my personality, but a configuration of my outward appearance at best. The image of myself is not a reusable placeholder for the representation of my ideas or feelings, as if my ideas and feelings are completely homogeneous with everyone else who looks (vaguely) "like" me.

[Anonymous No.11147365]

>>11147351
kill all non whites, for the love of god

[Anonymous No.11147369]

>>11147352
>I don't feel like I've ever seen a character representative of myself in literature
>he hasn't read Notes from Underground

[Anonymous No.11147393]

>>11147369
I actually haven't but I was making my way there after banging out some more doorstoppers. I started Dosto with Demons

[Anonymous No.11147412]

>>11147050
>>11147130
>>11147246
>It's a "Cultural Marxist argues about racial and gender oppression and doesn't go into specifics, but instead repeats the sane talking points over and over again like a broken record" episode.

[Anonymous No.11147678]

>>11147124
you can't deny that your life would be much worse ceteris paribus if you happened to be PoC, queer trans or a woman. privilege is an undeniable fact and you currently benefit from the suffering of others.

[Anonymous No.11147729]

>>11147292
opposing 'identity politics' is denying the humanity of marginalized folks

[Anonymous No.11147743]

>>11146983
>Shakespeare's taming of the shrew is pure misogyny,
>this anon refused to read kate's lines
kek why are you silencing women?

[Anonymous No.11147746]

>>11147412
/thread

[Anonymous No.11147843]

>>11147729
>denying the humanity of marginalized folks
they are not humans
kek brown people are not people
they are walking shit

[Anonymous No.11147845]

>>11147352
In the same sense that a pet dog who’s lived on land all their life couldn’t possiby understand why a goldfish would need a bowl to exist, you never have to be consiously aware of your own identity. You may never “click” with any characters you read about but you never ultinately doubt that you exist in the same world, if only at different points in time, and indeed can more easily remove yourself from your own culture.

[Anonymous No.11147846]

>>11147678
I'm a crossdressing turbo queer and my life has been more or less the same since i came out the closet compared to before

[Anonymous No.11147858]

>>11147153
The idea that respect from the homogenic masses is or ought to be a goal for any writers/artists at all, nevermind minoritiee, is in itself autism. That you pidgeonhole an entirr range of experiences as “whining about much oppression” shows how easy it is for the default to margninalize the experiences of the other.

[Anonymous No.11147894]

>>11147858
normies will respect anyone who got published, i'm specifically talking about /lit/.
The constant "Look at what the white man did to us" gets old doesn't it? Also i posted 2 books by minorities that i personally liked

[Anonymous No.11147911]

>>11147858
the problem is all those 'others' seem to think and write exactly the same. their experiences nothing but an endless twitter binge. deracinated western liberals/narcissists with only the most superficial trappings of 'alterity' these are not people, but mere quantities without content, checklist items, they'd be generic middle class warm bodies if some well meaning liberal bureaucracy hadn't been magnanimous enough to provide them with an 'identity' .

[Anonymous No.11147927]

>>11147004
this

[Anonymous No.11147969]

>>11147894

maybe if white men stopped doing things to minorities that wouldn't be such a popular topic

if we are still racist 200 years after slavery, what the fuck are we supposed to do? we want to stop complaining, believe us. but we will only after there's nothing to complain about.

[Anonymous No.11148023]

>>11147969
How are they oppressed?

[Anonymous No.11148059]

>>11147969
i mean sometime you just gotta play the cards you're delt
I'm arabic and have been called a terrorist throughout my public school life and me writing a book about it would be a massive cop out for me to do so i won't
Instead i'm writing about some bum who is basically the dude from the big lebowski while using imagery ton rival that of a Greek epic
I get that people need to know about the problems the underprivileged face but they don't need a play by play of them

[Anonymous No.11148241]

>>11147678
Its possible I could even be more successful by taking advantage of dorks with white guilt like you as well. Hypotheticals are shit arguments.

[Anonymous No.11148290]

>>11148241
it's not a hypothetical when white/straight/male privilege is a statistical reality, no matter how shit you feel you are still benefitting. white people need to feel uncomfortable because they are not used to feeling uncomfortable, marginalized folks literally go through this sort of humilliation and much worse every second of their existence. you don't even know what it feels like to be actually othered and excluded.

[Anonymous No.11148315]

>>11148290
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/10/white-working-class-boys-in-england-need-more-help-to-go-to-university

https://www.suttontrust.com/newsarchive/white-working-class-boys-have-lowest-gcse-grades-as-disadvantaged-bangladeshi-african-and-chinese-pupils-show-dramatically-improved-results/

https://www.tes.com/news/university-admissions-policies-could-be-holding-back-white-working-class-boys-report-finds

please, tell me more about your "statistical reality" that has no reference to statistics whatsoever

[Anonymous No.11148341]

>>11147193
Well done post

[Anonymous No.11148377]

>>11146764
On the one hand, we could continue to study and privilege profound and beautifully written classics which have become classics for a reason. On the other hand, we could ignore and disparage these great works and focus on more mediocre, lower-quality works just because they’re written by minorities and women and we feel guilty. This is a tough decision to make...

[Anonymous No.11148469]

>>11148377
and who decides what's worthy of being a classic? elitist cliques of western conservative white males?

[Anonymous No.11148478]

>>11148469
White men should get to decide what the Chinese classics are, because White men have been systematically marginalized by Chinese society since the dawn of time.

[Anonymous No.11148495]

>>11148469
It doesn’t matter who chose them. They’re just great works. Forced between having to read the works of Plato, Shakespeare, and Dante, or Okumbe Mokonoto DeTyroneLeQueesh Kuti’s mediocre work about growing up as a transgender woman with cerebral palsy in Uganda, I’d rather do the former.

[Anonymous No.11148515]

>>11148478
what about the opium wars? whites in asia still benefit from white privilege and the legacy of colonialism. asians are still dealing with the trauma of white colonization and working to decolonize their minds to this very day

[Anonymous No.11148559]

>>11148515
You've just internalized Asian supremacy to the point where you can't even recognize it anymore. Asians in the West still benefit from their Asian privilege, it's time for the Chinese to start accepting the works of White men into their canon.

[Anonymous No.11148589]

>>11147193
>cultural marxists are da real racists
Beliefs aren't as divisive as biology. Not even close.

[Anonymous No.11148601]

>>11147969
>Blacks who live near Whites have far better outcomes than Blacks who don't
>Everywhere Blacks live near Whites Blacks hate Whites
>reee the problem is that White people are mean to us
Fucking separate. If we're so awful to you just make your own damn country. Enjoy Africa 2.0

[Anonymous No.11148628]

>>11147050
>treat
Every buzzword in this sentence raises more questions than it provides answers. You are quite the dedicated troll.

[Anonymous No.11149191]

>>11147161
'meritocracy' is a codeword for jewish ethnic nepotism

[Anonymous No.11149976]

>>11146764
>How can we further diversity in literature
Ethnically segregate groups and stop racemixing in order to have the greatest world wide diversity in genetics and experiences.

>make literally spaces more welcoming to marginalized folks such as women queers and people of color?
Ethnic segregation, I think we all know from the last few centuries that whites and non whites can not live together.

>How can we make the literary canon more inclusive for people of different backgrounds who don't see themselves represented in literature?
Let them create their own Canon.
The first step to make that possible

>but it is important to fight reaction
of course is ethnic segregation.
Why?

>even in the heavily white cishet and male spaces that are most hostile to them.
Gender segregation is another important thing.

[Anonymous No.11149990]

>>11148469
>elitist cliques of western conservative white males?
That is only a problem because of multi culturalism.
Do you think the Chinese let their classics decided by the whites? No, obviously not, because they are SEPERATE from whites.

Wakanda can have its own Canon if and only if Wakanda is an ethnically homogeneous country.

[Anonymous No.11149995]

>>11146785
Hitler genocides the Jews out of "good will for the German people".