/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11116571]

>"The fact that" is an especially debilitating expression. It should be revised out of every sentence in which it occurs

Piero Scaruffi blown the fuck out

[Anonymous No.11116718]

the fact that they think this just proves the fact that they're dumb

[Anonymous No.11116727]

>>11116571
But why?

[Anonymous No.11116738]

>>11116727
I would image because it is redundant

>the fact that they think this just proves the fact that they're dumb

that they think this just proves that they're dumb

[Anonymous No.11116743]

Greatest btfo OF ALL TIMES

[Anonymous No.11116754]

>>11116738
but how do you know the fact that

a) the fact that they think this is a fact
b) the fact that they're dumb is a fact

your post overlooks the fact that "the fact that" describes something as a fact

[Anonymous No.11116764]

>>11116727
Its use is almost always superfluous it's absence usually flows better.

>So many books still name the Beatles "the greatest or most significant or most influential” rock band": this tells you how far rock music still is from becoming a serious art

Sounds a little better

[Anonymous No.11116765]

THE FACT THAT

[Anonymous No.11116767]

>>11116754
Thats already presumed in "that" in how it refers

[Anonymous No.11116784]

>>11116754

To illustrate this
>>11116767

>a) the fact that they think this is a fact
>b) the fact that they're dumb is a fact


a) that they think this is a fact
b) that they're dumb is a fact


No cognitive content is added or described with, "The fact...", because of how "that" refers. It is similar to how "...is true" works in assertions

It is true that snow is white.
Snow is white.

[Anonymous No.11116879]

>that that

[Anonymous No.11117011]

>>11116764
>Sounds a little better
No it doesn't. "The fact that" adds a confident, dominant tone. It shows that the writer is dealing with facts and isn't shitting around. Starting off with "so many books" is vague and not nearly as rhetorically convincing, it sounds almost like complaining.
The fact that you, unintentionally or not, do not detect these nuances shows that you ate up Strunk&White's prescriptivist bullshit without an ounce of critical thought.

>>11116571
>It should be revised
Now, now, IS THAT A PASSIVE VOICE?

[Anonymous No.11117027]

The Great Gatsby:
>He was profoundly affected by the fact that Tom was there
>It might have lasted indefinitely except for the fact that
>I wondered if the fact that he
Lolita:
>The fact that to me the only objects
>The fact that Lo would have
>The fact that Humbert Humbert, a brand new
Moby Dick:
>the fact that, at intervals during the passage
>the fact that the above-mentioned law is still in force
>the fact that the oil obtained
Ulysses:
>the fact that she is not
>the fact that their neighbors
>the fact that it behoved him

But I guess William Strunk Jr. (best know for *the elements of style*, 1918) has laid down the law here.

[Anonymous No.11117050]

>it's bad because it's redundant. language should be purged entirely of redundancy. which is why I only speak Lojban

[Anonymous No.11117055]

>>11117027
Strunk BTFO. Scaruffi wins, baby.

[Anonymous No.11117487]

>>11116571
>>11116764
I agree with Strunk and White generally, but there are plenty of places where "the fact that" is absolutely necessary — it can emphasize, create rhythm, help with consonance, and lend (sometimes false) authority to an author's voice.

For example, consider the Gatsby excerpt from >>11117027:
>He [Gatsby] was profoundly affected by the fact that Tom was there.
If we revised it using Strunk's advice, we'd get:
>He [Gatsby] was profoundly affected by Tom's presence.
This would lose us the repeated T sound, which gives the sentence part of its impact. It would also force us to end the sentence on a two-syllable word instead of a one-syllable word (or use the ugly phrase "the presence of Tom"). Fitzgerald had good reason to phrase this the way he did.

[Anonymous No.11117562]

>>11117027
yeah well e.b. white wrote Charlotte's Web, looks like you just got btfo frand

[Anonymous No.11117576]

>>11116571
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrRKJrTPwYg

[Anonymous No.11117597]

>>11116571
The fact that "the fact that" is - in a matter of fact - factually counter-factual with respect to the fact that "the fact that" being incorrect as a matter of fact, is indeed not a question of the-fact-that-is, but the question of being-in-fact an immense faggoty;-- this trash is for grade schoolers to deprogram their prolix tendencies as the stylistic "How to Make Friends and Influence People" of English prose composition.

[Anonymous No.11117603]

>>11117487
>This would lose us the repeated T sound, which gives the sentence part of its impact.
What impact is gained by the repeated T sound? Are you saying the fact that a sentence has repeated sounds inherently adds value?

[Anonymous No.11117646]

>>11117603
(Not that anon)
It's called alliteration you dumb fuck

[Anonymous No.11117733]

>>11117646
describing what alliteration is doesn't answer the question, anon.

[Anonymous No.11117745]

What are the best style guides?

[Anonymous No.11117776]

>>11117733
But I didn't describe what alliteration is

[Anonymous No.11117808]

>>11117603
Repeated sounds don't "inherently" add value, but they can create an effect or act in parallel to the action. In this case, the repetition of the plosive T creates a jabbing effect which mirrors the psychological experience of being repeatedly made aware of Tom's presence.

Of course, this is all interpretive and subjective, but most readers are affected by prose even if they can't articulate why.

[Anonymous No.11117828]

>>11117808
Othet anon btfo