/clas/ - Classical Greek and Roman Literature

[Anonymous No.11111159]

/clas/ - Classical Greek and Roman Literature Thread and /lit/'s bulwark of bitter battle

It's been awhile lads

>classics that you are reading right now
>expected future readings
>interesting scholarship you’ve come across, old and new

CHARTS
Start with the Greeks
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0086/04/1476211635020.jpg
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0099/17/1503236647667.jpg
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0098/47/1501831593974.jpg

Resume with the Romans
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0080/46/1463433979055.jpg
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0086/97/1478569598723.jpg


ONLINE RESOURCES
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/ (Translations, Original Texts, Dictionaries)
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/home.html (Translations)
https://pleiades.stoa.org/ (Geography)
https://plato.stanford.edu/ (Philosophy)
http://www.mqdq.it/public/indici/autori
http://www.attalus.org/info/sources.html
http://www.attalus.org/translate/index.html
http://digiliblt.lett.unipmn.it/index.php (Site in Italian)
http://www.library.theoi.com/ (Translations)
https://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/a_chron.html (Site in Latin)
https://droitromain.univ-grenoble-alpes.fr/
http://www.earlymedievalmonasticism.org/Corpus-Scriptorum-Ecclesiasticorum-Latinorum.html (CSEL)
http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/POxy/ (Oxyrhynchus Papyri)
http://db.edcs.eu/epigr/epi.php?s_sprache=en (Epigraphy)
http://epigraphy.packhum.org/ (Ephigraphy)
http://papyri.info/

THREAD VIDEO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bQ-WsquMwE

[Anonymous No.11111231]

>>11111159
Just finished Plato's Protagoras and I'm going through A. E. Taylor's commentary. I absolutely love the dialogue. I also heard there are no ancient commentaries on it, which makes me a little sad.

I'm also perplexed by Socrates' notion which is what is pleasurable=good (or at least participates in the good), when the greatest and longest aim is achieved. This is essentially a utilitarianism. What works of Plato expand, critique, or attack this notion?

This is also my favourite 'scholarship' of all time:

THE ANCIENT ROMAN READING CRAZE:
ROME DIDN’T FALL AT THE HANDS OF DRUNKEN, BELLIGERENT, ANIMALISTIC HORDES OF VISIGOTHS, BUT TO DRUNKEN, SELF-INDULGENT, POMPOUS HORDES OF LITERARY READERS.

https://www.believermag.com/issues/200309/?read=article_perrottet

[Anonymous No.11111415]

>>11111231
>I'm also perplexed by Socrates' notion which is what is pleasurable=good

When did Socrates say that? It sounds like an Epicurean position, not Socratic.

[Anonymous No.11111537]

>>11111415
>And now substitute the names of pleasure and pain for good and evil, and say, not as before, that a man does what is evil knowingly, but that he does what is painful knowingly, and because he is overcome by pleasure, which is unworthy to overcome. What measure is there of the relations of pleasure to pain other than excess and defect, which means that they become greater and smaller, and more and fewer, and differ in degree? For if any one says: 'Yes, Socrates, but immediate pleasure differs widely from future pleasure and pain'—To that I should reply: And do they differ in anything but in pleasure and pain? There can be no other measure of them. And do you, like a skilful weigher, put into the balance the pleasures and the pains, and their nearness and distance, and weigh them, and then say which outweighs the other. If you weigh pleasures against pleasures, you of course take the more and greater; or if you weigh pains against pains, you take the fewer and the less; or if pleasures against pains, then you choose that course of action in which the painful is exceeded by the pleasant, whether the distant by the near or the near by the distant; and you avoid that course of action in which the pleasant is exceeded by the painful. Would you not admit, my friends, that this is true? I am confident that they cannot deny this.

[Anonymous No.11111618]

>>11111159
>Xenophon
>Red binding

nani

[Anonymous No.11112611]

Does reading the Histories really add much, honestly?

[Anonymous No.11112620]

>>11111159
>"Is that a LOEB CLASSICS i see?"

[Anonymous No.11112639]

Almost done getting all the Greek tragedies

[Anonymous No.11112643]

>>11111618
I'm confused too, are there latin translations of him? Was he popular in antiquity?
>>11112620
Who is that guy and why do i want to sock him in the throat?

[Anonymous No.11112646]

[Anonymous No.11112650]

>tfw it's exhausting to read Livy but there are also great parts that stand out and make it worthwhile
>reading Cannae yesterday

[Anonymous No.11112657]

>>11111618
>>11112643

Its a rebinding that was done in red. Its in greek. Disrespecting the Minotaur is a cardinal sin.

[Anonymous No.11112664]

Finished Odyssey and I tried reading the Aeneid but it was just too confusing for me with all the Roman names (pic related for feel) as well as the translation doesn't seem that smooth. Still debating whether to just read Posthomerica as my next classic instead or order the Homeric fragments and Hymns and wait a bit

[Anonymous No.11112667]

>>11111231

This won't answer your question, but the Neoplatonist Damascius has many interesting things to say about pleasure.

[Anonymous No.11112748]

What are some Classical Fetishes you guys have? I always like when the hero dies at the end, like Jason

[Anonymous No.11112790]

>>11111159
What's the funniest or best Aristophanes play?

[Anonymous No.11112909]

Going back to the classics after reading modern philosophy.

[Anonymous No.11112917]

>>11112909
How you enjoying it? I'm thinking of going to do that, but I may just stick to some more philosophy first

[Anonymous No.11113067]

>>11112664
Read Apollonius' Argonautica, though it isn't related to the Trojan Cycle, it's a good literary transition from archaic Greece to Rome

[Anonymous No.11113100]

>>11113067
alright thanks, the change was really confusing me. I'm starting to switch to Loeb as well for when I eventually learn the ancients so it's good that it's in one volume as well compared with a lot of other stuff.

[Anonymous No.11113121]

>>11113100
>Euripides's plays are in 6 volumes
>8 if you count fragments
>want to get them but it's too expensive

[Anonymous No.11113131]

>>11113121
Go on ebay desu, just get them used

[Anonymous No.11113138]

>>11112667
Solid excerpt. I'm confused here when there is a discussion of 'the intellect always is superseded by this element of an ungraspable presence of the Good'. Is this an ontological priority? Or a matter of sensation, where the body comprehends before the mind can understand?

[Anonymous No.11113142]

What do guys think of Callimachus, the greatest Hellenistic poet?

[Anonymous No.11113167]

>>11113131
Not from the States, the delivery would cost more than the books. I wouldn't mind getting them used as long as they are in good condition, but where I live it's cheaper to get them new from Amazon.

[Anonymous No.11113250]

>>11113131
Is ebay even safe? I'm still used to being scammed on there from 2011

[Anonymous No.11113291]

>>11113250
Yes, just buy from people with good ratings. If ya get scammed you can report them

[Anonymous No.11113312]

>>11113142
Post his best. I don't know this guy.

[Anonymous No.11113335]

have any of you read the homeric apocrypha

[Anonymous No.11113354]

>>11113312
Though most of his work is fragmentary, it's very good, his best being the fragmentary epyllion Hecale and his Hymns

[Anonymous No.11113369]

>>11113335
>homeric apocrypha
is this a thing - please tell me more!

[Anonymous No.11113379]

>>11113369
It's after the hymns in this version
https://www.amazon.com/Homeric-Hymns-Apocrypha-Classical-Library/dp/0674996062/ref=pd_sim_14_7?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0674996062&pd_rd_r=6ZZR97D2P13B3V1YRJX6&pd_rd_w=yGEcC&pd_rd_wg=ZlTVg&psc=1&refRID=6ZZR97D2P13B3V1YRJX6
apparently one of the works is just translated in this edition

[Anonymous No.11113383]

>>11113369
of course there is also the rest of the epic greek fragments as well

[Anonymous No.11113389]

>>11113138
>Is this an ontological priority?

The Good is basically the supreme principle of the Neoplatonists. The Good and The One are used almost interchangeably.

You are on the right track when you mention ontological priority, but the Good can't really be said to be ontological prior since it is understood to be beyond being. You could say that it is 'prior' to being, but that would be stretching the limits of language.

[Anonymous No.11113398]

>>11113383
>>11113379
Is it worth a read?

[Anonymous No.11113489]

>>11113398
well that's what I was basically asking, first if anyone read it.
Heard the sequel to the Odyssey is alright

[Anonymous No.11113551]

Is there a single character in all of classical literature who gets more fucked over than Andromache?

>Achilles sacks her home city of Thebes, killing her father and brothers
>mother dies of illness shortly after
>husband killed by Achilles
>city sacked and her home and everyone she knows killed or enslaved
>only child ripped from her hands and thrown off from the walls of Troy
>enslaved by the Neoptolemus son of the guy who killed your husband and entire family
>taken away to foreign land to be a slave
>raped and impregnated by Neoptolemus
>nearly assassinated by daughter of the woman who is the root cause for all the above

[Anonymous No.11113580]

>>11113551
wait achilles grandchild is hectors wifes son?
the greeks had some humor

[Anonymous No.11113595]

>>11113580
andromache actually had 3 kids by Neoptolemus

[Anonymous No.11113651]

>>11113354
please post a little

[Anonymous No.11113663]

How do I learn Latin on my own? I'm a native Spanish and French speaker does that make Latin easier?

[Anonymous No.11113776]

>>11113663
I'm a native English speaker with four years of French under my belt, as well as some Spanish and Italian, and Latin was easy to grasp on to, though it does become more and more complex down the road.

[Anonymous No.11113788]

>>11113663

You'll have an easier time mastering the vocabulary. Being already used to noun genders helps a lot too.

[Anonymous No.11113791]

>>11113595

[Anonymous No.11113929]

Are there any good works that show the syncretism between Persian religion and the Greeks? I know there is one for the Greek and Buddhist religions but for some reason not one for their next door neighbors

[Anonymous No.11113947]

>>11113929
Uzdavinys' Philosophy & Theurgy
Burkert's Greek Religion
Campbell's Masks of God (Occidental Mythology)

that's all I've got off the top of the dome my man.

[Anonymous No.11113951]

>>11113929

M. L. West has done good work in this area. He's concerned with myth more than religion though and doesn't restrict himself to Persia, but is more concerned with the whole of the Near East. His books are often expensive and hard to get too which is unfortunate.

>Over the last sixty years scholars have increasingly become aware of links connecting early Greek poetry with the literatures of the ancient Near East. Martin West's new book far surpasses previous studies in comprehensiveness, demonstrating these links with massive and detailed documentation and showing they are much more fundamental and pervasive than has hitherto been acknowledged.

[Anonymous No.11113952]

oh and Chaldean Oracles ofc.

[Anonymous No.11113958]

>>11113951
>buy new
>$141

D:

not that anon but thanks for the recommendation, i'll get it someday.

[Anonymous No.11113967]

>>11113951
ahh I've heard of that book before, but like other anon said it was expensive as fuck. Only 90 bucks back then but still.
Thanks anyhow I'll probably get a pdf
>>11113947
>>11113952
Thanks man

[Anonymous No.11113980]

>>11113951
Oh shit he's the man who also translated the homeric hymns and apocrypha as a linked here >>11113379

If loeb trusts him, must be respected

[Anonymous No.11113994]

>>11111159
please forgive the shelfposting

is there anything more pretentious? more attention-seeking?

I'm curious which classics the anons in this thread would add or remove from this collection. Thank you for your kind assistance.

[Anonymous No.11114014]

>>11113994

What were your thoughts on Erigena? He's a rare one who I've wanted to read.

For the moment let's allow for the pretentiousness - it at least brings together people with common interests.

[Anonymous No.11114018]

>>11113994
I'd remove the Joseph Campbell stuff, add the two volumes of the Greek Maths. Necessary to understand their philosophy of math

[Anonymous No.11114019]

>>11113980
>he's the man who also translated the homeric hymns and apocrypha

His translation of Hesiod is very good too.

[Anonymous No.11114054]

>>11113994
That's a nice shelf Anon.

[Anonymous No.11114059]

>>11114014
Haven't finished it, but it's comfy. It is presented as a dialectic between teacher and student, and reads like a less autistic Aquinas 400 years earlier. A lot of references to Greek problems and ideas, and while he is undoubtedly a Christian I appreciate how his work is not full of obsequious prose like for example Augustine. That sort of praise muddies the water and encourages groupthink, and it was necessary to get past church censors I imagine, but is mercifully absent here.

>>11114018
I'll look into it, thanks. I've read those twice so far, I don't think I'll be repeating it for quite a while.

[Anonymous No.11114080]

>>11114054
Thanks. $6 at a used store. It's the compact bedside shelf / cat tower. Foldable, probably pine but feels harder, 20 inches across, goes with me when I move places.

[Anonymous No.11114092]

>>11113994
You're missing the tragedians and comedians, my man.

>>11113958
It's on libgen.

[Anonymous No.11114093]

>>11113138

The Good is ontologically transcendent so it transcends knowledge and thus the intellect itself. So the Good is contemplated through an appreciation of the lower-case good (the physical and earthly manifestation of the transcendental form), whereby the soul, rather than the intellect, is able to understand the Good in spiritual rather than earthly terms

[Anonymous No.11114129]

>>11113994
I think I see a lack of epic literature except for the Argonautica. You should have Lucan, Virgil, Hesiod, Ovid, and Homer. Some Julius Caesar wouldn't be bad, either.

[Anonymous No.11114142]

>>11114059

Very cool anon, thanks. He and Pseudo-Dionysius interest me quite a bit, especially regarding apophasis. One of these days I'll get around to them.

[Anonymous No.11114149]

>>11114129
Already read Homer, Virgil (Aeneid), and Ovid (Metamorphoses). Couldn't into Hesiod, but that was several years ago. Should give Theogony another shot. Lucan's Pharsalia is on a shelf elsewhere, standing by.

[Anonymous No.11114175]

>>11114142
Same same. I'm tempted to give Weil's Gravity and Grace a look.

[Anonymous No.11114893]

greek bump

[Anonymous No.11115057]

>>11113389
From what I know of Neoplatonism, this seems to fall in line perfectly.

The question is, however, that if 'our world is characterized by multiplicity participating unity, from another point of view we can describe the same thing as defectiveness desiring perfection' wouldn't The One and the The Good both be, theoretically possible within this life? I mean, didn't Plotinus experience an ecstasy with The One? Does not such language or experience indicated that that which is beyond Being still participates with Being? Wouldn't it make more sense for The One and The Good (and I believe the third part is Love?) to be the ontological grounds of Being than extending beyond it?

[Anonymous No.11115064]

>>11113663
Tips on Greek and Latin. Latin is at the very bottom.

My journey was a Latin dictionary, Shelmerdine's Introduction to Latin, and a 'New Latin Grammar' by Allen and Greenough.

[Anonymous No.11115090]

>>11115057
Plotinus wrestled a lot with the problem of evil, or how this fallible matter came to be from a Good source. The One needs to be beyond what exists rather than immanent in it, because if it isn't transcendent, Good is the ontological ground of evil, rather than evil being a separation from it.

[Anonymous No.11115190]

When would you stop saying the Greeks are classics?
I think it's obvious in the west that the frankish empire or end of western rome is where the two main stops are, but in the east? Would it be the ban on pagan literature? I mean they still wrote about it until the fall of Byzantium.

[Anonymous No.11115337]

>did 6 years of Greek and Latin in high school
>read Homer, Virgil, Ovid etc etc etc
>take a papyrology course in uni
>the Oxhyrinchus papyri
>only 5000 of 500.000 papyri have been deciphered (1%)
>90% of it are personal letters, bills, administration, horoscopes (non-literary in nature)
>feels like having access to a window in history
Seriously guys, if you want to take a break from ancient literature, it might be fun to read the Oxyrinchus papyri. It contains an endless amount of fascinating information on daily life in Greek Egypt from Ptolemaeic times to the early Middle Ages. All papyri can be found on: papyri.info

[Anonymous No.11115388]

>>11115337
which languages are most of them in?

[Anonymous No.11115397]

>>11115337
wait I just looked this up online, and this has been known about since 1890's. Over a hundred and thirty years and not all of these are translated! What the fuck!

[Anonymous No.11115413]

>>11112790
either birds or frogs, i really can't choose

[Anonymous No.11115630]

Eriugena is such a weird guy, and yet he made it onto money somehow. Absolutely fantastic.

[Anonymous No.11115709]

>>11115057
>wouldn't The One and the The Good both be, theoretically possible within this life?

The Platonists are more monistic than people realize.

I'm having trouble putting my thoughts into words, but I think you'll find this helpful.

[Anonymous No.11115725]

>>11115190
>I think it's obvious in the west that the frankish empire or end of western rome is where the two main stops are, but in the east? Would it be the ban on pagan literature? I mean they still wrote about it until the fall of Byzantium.

Different people will use different dates.
For me, the it all ends with the fall of Alexandria in 641. With that, the Mediterranean is lost and the old world ceases to be.

[Anonymous No.11115797]

>>11114018
After reading this post I went and watched some videos on how the Greeks did math, really enlightening ty

[Anonymous No.11116032]

>>11115797
yeah in my geometry class back in high school we learned some of the shapes the greek way (which was hard as fuck for me, only math class i got less than an a in and i got f), but it was very interesting to see how it worked and i remember trying to go back and understanding more of it but still was very confusing without a lot of philosophic terms

[Anonymous No.11116168]

>>11111111
Wonder who got the digits

[Anonymous No.11116746]

Is start with the greeks a meme?

[Anonymous No.11116748]

>>11111111

[Anonymous No.11116781]

What's the easiest thing to read in classical Latin?

[Anonymous No.11116869]

>>11116781

Caesar's Gallic Wars is one of the easiest, but you still have to build up to it.

Take a look at this:
https://geoffreysteadman.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/caesarhelvetian-26aug17.pdf

[Anonymous No.11117021]

>>11116869
Bless Geoffrey Steadman, his editions are great to practice reading in Greek and Latin.

[Anonymous No.11117046]

>>11116869
Agreed that Caesar is pretty straightforward prose, but I'd say (some of) Martial's epigrams are easier because you don't have to keep some much information and context in mind. They are nice bite sized pieces of wit.

[Anonymous No.11117167]

>>11112650

[Anonymous No.11117357]

>>11112611
classics student here
genuinely i have found historiography a chore, Herodotus is rather entertaining because most of it is made up but if you want to read history writing go for something like Sallust or other monographic histories as theyre more entertaining and didactic than annalistic such as Livy or Tacitus

[Anonymous No.11117391]

>>11113663
Managed to get myself up to intermediate at uni as only an autodidact before.

You have to nail the grammar first if you want to learn it quickly as an autodidact. Use this website as a way into the noun and verb tables and honestly just memorise the tables and case functions and you will pick up the vocab later. A good way of learning is through Cambridge Latin Course ( 5 books all on amazon). use that alongside crash coursing grammar tables will help you pick up vocab and you will race through books 1-3.

then on starting book 4 use material like John taylors GCSE Latin to really aid with grammatical pieces like ablative absolutes and indirect questions.

after that to really get on to original text (start after book 4) buy something Like Kennedys revised Latin Primer as that is the best Latin grammar for students and translate something like Aeneid book 1 or 6, Catullus' poems or Pliny the Youngers letters (my uncle, Arria or a day in the life of pliny the elder are probably the best).

hope this helps.

[Anonymous No.11117408]

>>11113994

Are you the gnostic anon owning a gun? If yes I remember you from a previous thread! How is life?

>>11111159

Just ended Cicero's De Natura Deorum and De Divinatione. Cicero is not the best philosopher but I think I have the comfiest writing I have ever experienced in my whole life. I just feel like I want to retreat in the countryside and just read cicero for a couple of months...

[Anonymous No.11117718]

>>11117408
Hey my man. Not a gnostic, just interested in the early church and pagan philosophers and especially what Christianity owes to them.

>How is life?
Good, thanks for asking! Going to a discernment retreat soon, considering seminary with a view to becoming a military chaplain. How are you?

[Anonymous No.11118012]

>>11113651
Sorry for the late reply, but here's my favorite epigram of his:
They told me, Heraclitus, they told me you were dead;
They brought me bitter news to hear and bitter tears to shed;
I wept, as I remembered, how often you and I
Had tired the sun with talking, and sent him down the sky.
And now that thou art lying, my dear old Carian guest,
A handful of grey ashes, long, long ago at rest,
Still are thy pleasant voices, thy nightingales, awake;
For Death, he taketh all away, but them he cannot take.
(“Heraclitus”, translated by William Johnson Cory, 1823-92)

[Anonymous No.11118362]

>reading the complete works of Shakespeare
>ol Shakes managed to write The Iliad better than Homer dead

is there no end to this man's brilliance

[Anonymous No.11118369]

>reading the complete works of Shakespeare
>ol Shakes managed to write The Iliad better than Homer did

is there no end to this man's brilliance

[Anonymous No.11118389]

>>11111159
I'll just recycle my photo from the shoestack thread a while ago since a lot of it applies. I had a Xenophon phase. He has some merit and is worth reading.

[Anonymous No.11118512]

>>11118389
>brown paper bag bookcover
Patrician.

[Anonymous No.11118921]

>>11118012
Sounds a little greek if you ask me.

[Anonymous No.11119051]

>Ancient Greek writing was all in capital letters, with no spaces between words and no punctuation

Was punctuation a mistake?

[Anonymous No.11119156]

>>11117718

All is fine, living the comfy PhD life, just studying for my annual review, weather is beautiful today!

[Anonymous No.11119573]

>>11118012
awesome

[Anonymous No.11119588]

>>11119156
it's somehow always more nice when people are wholesome on 4chan - gives me faith in life

[Anonymous No.11119887]

>>11118369
Are you referencing Troileus and Cressida? Shakespeare fudges so many details in that play.

[Anonymous No.11119893]

>>11119051
>Writes with both cases, spaces, and one comma.
>Doesn't even use boustrophedon

[Anonymous No.11119940]

>>11111159
Just finished my second semester of Latin. What a rush! An exam has never felt more exhilarating or scary for me. But I'm glad I decided to take Latin, regardless of what grade I end up getting, and I'm gonna keep studying by myself this summer. Wish me luck, friends.

[Anonymous No.11120061]

>>11113929
I'd like some recommendations for books detailing how Buddhist thought influenced Greek thought.

[Anonymous No.11120150]

>>11119940
What was on the test? Would like to gauge where I am relative to actual courses.

[Anonymous No.11120169]

>>11120061
>I'd like some recommendations for books detailing how Buddhist thought influenced Greek thought.

One thing to note at the outset is that it is almost impossible to determine who influenced who in most cases. Clear parallel can and should be drawn, but discovering chains of transmission is something else entirely.

I quite like 'The Shape of Ancient Thought: Comparative Studies in Greek and Indian Philosophies' by Thomas McEvilley for a first dip into this world of intriguing similarities. Not all of it is about Buddhism, but a good portion of it is.

If you have an interest in both Buddhism and Greek Skepticism, I would urge you to consider reading 'Greek Buddha: Pyrrho's Encounter with Early Buddhism in Central Asia' by Christopher Beckwith.

[Anonymous No.11120174]

>>11119940

Absolutely patrician. :D

I feel like all the good comfy people from /lit/ are in this thread

[Anonymous No.11120886]

>>11111159
This is the stack of classics I have in my dorm (I've got a lot more at home.) What do you think? Sorry for the potato quality, I'll list off the editions:

Ovid's Metamorphoses, trans. A.D. Melville
Herodotus's Histories, trans. de Selincourt
Great Dialogues of Plato (Ion, Apology, Crito, Phaedo, Republic, Meno, Symposium), trans W.H.D. Rouse
Plato (trans. Jowett), Epictetus (Hastings Crossley), Marc. Aurelius (George Long), Harvard Classics
Iliad + Odyssey, trans. Fitzgerald.

Anything you think I should add? My wish is to have a complete Loeb classics set, but they're so expensive and I have no money. I'd love to miraculously come across a big set for cheap.

[Anonymous No.11120929]

>>11118012
he got the big gay

[Anonymous No.11121018]

>>11117408
>Just ended Cicero's De Natura Deorum and De Divinatione. Cicero is not the best philosopher but I think I have the comfiest writing I have ever experienced in my whole life. I just feel like I want to retreat in the countryside and just read cicero for a couple of months...
based i'm reading on duties right now and i'm loving it. i sort of gave up on ovid's fasti by comparison. the older i get the less i care for fiction at least in terms of literature. fictional tv and movies are ok because i'm thinking less.

[Anonymous No.11121041]

>>11111159
I wanted to buy physical copies, but it's just so fucking expensive around here. Am I a brainlet for having a hard time reading on the computer?

[Anonymous No.11121069]

>>11121018

[Anonymous No.11121115]

>>11121041
get an ereader. it's a one time expense that will pay for itself in a few months because of free books, it's less of an eye strain than a normal screen (i'm talking about eink devices obviously) and, being a dedicated reading device, it does not present you with constant distractions like a pc or a smartphone. i got a kindle like 8 years ago and it was the best purchase of my life.

[Anonymous No.11121163]

>>11121041
>Am I a brainlet for having a hard time reading on the computer?
no there have been studies on the differences in consuming difficult texts online vs in print

[Anonymous No.11121271]

>>11121041
What >>11121163 said, check out e.g. Anne Mangen and Naomi Baron's works if you want to see how your computer can turn you into a pleb

[Anonymous No.11121352]

any of you lads read anything by lucian of samosata?

[Anonymous No.11121384]

>>11121352
>any of you lads read anything by lucian of samosata?

His 'Isle of the Blessed' speaks loudly, and is a bit of an antidote, given all that we've lost.

[Anonymous No.11121643]

>In the ancient world, even the feeble-minded had brides.

Feels bad man

[Anonymous No.11121646]

Also, thoughts on Margites?

[Anonymous No.11121740]

Do you think Conopas had a good life?

[Anonymous No.11121762]

>>11121740
where are getting these nuggets from anon?

[Anonymous No.11121928]

>>11121762
>where are getting these nuggets from anon?

The dwarf thing is from "The Elder Pliny on the Human Animal:Natural History Book 7: Natural History"

Margites and Meletides are from "The Book of Greek and Roman Folktales, Legends, and Myths"

[Anonymous No.11122574]

>>11121115
>>11121163
>>11121271
Thanks frens

[Anonymous No.11122905]

>>11122574
danse macabre

[Anonymous No.11123102]

>>11116168
>>>11111111

[Anonymous No.11124179]

>>11111159
Plutarch - Makers of Rome.

[Anonymous No.11125543]

>Xenophon in his Anabasis, the account of a mercenary army’s retreat through what is now central Turkey, describes meeting a curious people who asked if they could have public intercourse with the women accompanying the Greek army. This wasn’t the most peculiar thing about them: ‘all of them were white, the men and the women alike’. Being white, particularly for men, was in Xenophon’s eyes a sign of this people’s alienness.

Makes you think.

[Anonymous No.11125747]

>>11125543
Well, the Greeks were probably as olive-skinned back then as now. To see someone of genuinely pale skin would have been surprising.

[Anonymous No.11125825]

>>11125747

Indeed

[Anonymous No.11125835]

>>11123102
>>11111111 is gone! WHY!!!

[Anonymous No.11125838]

>>11125747
>>11125825
lmao you idiots even been to greece

[Anonymous No.11125847]

>>11125838

I eat Greeks for breakfast.

[Anonymous No.11125892]

Based

[Anonymous No.11125894]

>>11118921
>>11120929
>plebs who don't understand close platonic male bonds

[Anonymous No.11126569]

Tell me about the hoplite. Why does he wear his enemy's scalp?

[Anonymous No.11126606]

When will they learn?

[Anonymous No.11126835]

>>11125894
male bonds that include but is not limited to butt sex

[Anonymous No.11126858]

apologies for the dumb question, but can anyone direct me to resources - articles, books, perhaps even your own arguments - on why we start with the Greeks? I'd like to write an essay for myself for future reference, though to be honest I have difficulty coming up with big, strong arguments.

[Anonymous No.11127000]

>>11126569
To intimidate his enemy

[Anonymous No.11127074]

>>11126858

All the great Western thinkers knew the Greeks intimately. They knew Latin. They knew Greek. Their school curricula were 90% classics. Without starting with the Greeks, you'll miss a ton of references, allusions, jokes, and more when you turn to later authors. You'll be missing a whole dimension of meaning.

[Anonymous No.11127082]

Schopenhauer was right!

>There is no better recreation for the mind than the study of the ancient classics. Take any one of them into your hand, be it only for half an hour, and you will feel yourself refreshed, relieved, purified, ennobled, strengthened; just as if you had quenched your thirst at some pure spring. Is this the effect of the old language and its perfect expression, or is it the greatness of the minds whose works remain unharmed and unweakened by the lapse of a thousand years? Perhaps both together. But this I know. If the threatened calamity should ever come, and the ancient languages cease to be taught, a new literature shall arise, of such barbarous, shallow and worthless stuff as never was seen before.

[Anonymous No.11127229]

>>11127074
Ok! I like that the famous Greek and Latin literature is part of our "common stock," especially as you say it opens up a whole dimension of meaning. I suppose this makes me ask: what makes the Greeks (and Romans) worth knowing? Or, put another way - why did the great Western thinkers conclude it valuable to know Classical literature?

[Anonymous No.11127301]

>>11126569
I'm not familiar with this practice. Which historians wrote of it?

[Anonymous No.11127317]

>>11127301

It's not a known practice for the Greeks.
Might be a Greek intimating the Scythians.

[Anonymous No.11127324]

It's not a known practice for the Greeks.
Might be a Greek imitating the Scythians.

[Anonymous No.11127336]

>Scythians

Were they the baddies?

[Anonymous No.11127398]

[Anonymous No.11127598]

>tfw you will never live in 5th century Greece

[Anonymous No.11127766]

>>11127598
>tfw you live in 5th century greece but you are an illiterate slave getting buttfucked by one of socrates' accusers

[Anonymous No.11127782]

>>11127398
Jesus fucking Christ

[Anonymous No.11127854]

I'm making my way through the Iliad, Odyssey and Aeneid and was wondering if there is any essential post readings that I should look into? So far I picked up War and The Iliad as well as some Alexander Pope poems.

[Anonymous No.11127864]

>>11127854
yes instead of being a retarded pseud you could read the three tragedians, campaigns of alexander, life of alexander, Tacitus, Cicero, Horace, Pindar and Nietzsche’s early works on the Greeks and then you won’t be doing a homework assignment anymore

[Anonymous No.11128167]

should i read tacitus? is he anybodys favorite classical guy? whats his appeal

[Anonymous No.11128187]

>>11127336
Sauce?

[Anonymous No.11128197]

>>11127864
thanks for the advice fren

[Anonymous No.11129206]

>>11127082

How will modern literature ever recover?

[Anonymous No.11129407]

>>11127398
BASED

[Anonymous No.11129938]

>>11127398
Why were the Persians so cruel compared to the Greeks?

[Anonymous No.11130479]

>>11127854
The Iliad, or the poem of force
The Trojan war: a new history. This one is especially fascinating

[Anonymous No.11130684]

>>11127766
Athenian slaves were treated pretty well, probably a better life than being a wage slave (unless you were forced to work the silver mines of Laurium).

[Anonymous No.11130719]

>>11129938
>guys why does a greek guy portray the enemies of greece badly in a piece of fanfiction written 500 years after the fact?

[Anonymous No.11130747]

>>11129938
>Why were the Persians so cruel compared to the Greeks?

It's just symbolism bro.

[Anonymous No.11130786]

>>11130719
I'm talking in general, not just this specific case

[Anonymous No.11130817]

>>11130786
and where do your accounts of persian cruelty come from, in general?

[Anonymous No.11130938]

>>11130817
I understand what you are saying that you have to be cautious about what ones enemies say about them, and that most descriptions we have are from Greeks or the old testament.

But brutal torture is attested by Ctesias, the personal physician to the Persian king, as well as the Bisotun inscription, which is Persian. Not to mention their depiction in late-assyrian and achaemenid reliefs and paintings.
Too, the old Persian word meaning "to punish" also meant " to question"

[Anonymous No.11130990]

>>11117718
>>11119156
you two are rad

[Anonymous No.11131104]

What are your favorite books written by Cicero?

He wasn't the best, smartest or most virtuous man to ever live, but the fact that he lived such a virtuous life in the moral turpitude that was the late republic is impressive and I think his writing is a good guide for our modern life given the similarities of the times.

Because of that I like his philosophical writing s (de officiis, de finibus bonorum et malorum, tusculan disputationes, etc.) And his letters to atticus and his friends the best.

His law and political speeches, while great, are just of historical and oratorical interest to me.

[Anonymous No.11131183]

Best translations of the Iliad and Odyssey?

[Anonymous No.11131207]

>>11131104

This is my favorite at the moment.
I like the Skeptical Platonists of the New Academy a lot.

[Anonymous No.11131328]

Do you think the historical Socrates knew he was a fictional character?

[Anonymous No.11131453]

>>11131183
F I T Z G E R A L D

[Anonymous No.11131552]

>>11131207
I haven't read that one yet, but I hear we are missing a lot (about half) of it. Does that make it difficult to understand?

[Anonymous No.11131649]

>>11131552

It's very fragmented.
You can't really read it like a normal book.
Background knowledge helps when approaching something like this.

[Anonymous No.11131688]

>>11131453
Looking for a translation in verse, thoughts on Lattimore?

[Anonymous No.11131743]

>>11131688
Dryden (although I think he only did book one of the Iliad)
After that, Chapman.

[Anonymous No.11131772]

>>11131688

It's a matter of taste.
All the big names are respected.

[Anonymous No.11132186]

>>11111159
I'm trying to find a one of Aesop's funny fables. It's about a mouse, a cat and a barrel of wine. That's all I remember from it.
Can someone please help me?

[Anonymous No.11132229]

>>11132186
There are a bunch with cats and mice, but none that I recall (with cats and mice) involve a barrel of wine

[Anonymous No.11132262]

>>11132229
I'm relying on my memory here, but I'm 100% there is wine involved and maybe a rat or a mouse. The fable was really fucking funny.

[Anonymous No.11132272]

>>11132262
The only one with wine I know of is the old woman and the wine jar. It is slightly funny

[Anonymous No.11132869]

>>11113994
If you actually read a good chunk of that shelf i would like you a lot. Id hang out with you at a cafe and talk with.

[Anonymous No.11133297]

>>11113994
Where’s your Greek tragedy at? I’m reading Philoctetes by Sophocles at the moment and I like it’s contradictions of destiny and morality even more than those in Antigone and Oedipus Rex. The story structure is almost as good as the latter. My favorite is Prometheus Bound since it’s a story of the suffering god himself who rejects the law of Zeus and accepts Fate as it runs its course. I recommend that to everyone who wants an intro work to Greek tragedy.

[Anonymous No.11134530]

>>11133297
Tragedy game is weak, you're right. I'll start with the Sophocles.

[Anonymous No.11135366]

>>11134530
Start with Aeschylus

[Anonymous No.11135414]

OH NO NO NO NO

[Anonymous No.11135430]

>>11135414
>and refreshingly un-crusty.
What does that even mean?
Who are these people?

[Anonymous No.11135449]

>>11135414
>chapter 1: binge-watching the Iliad

[Anonymous No.11135452]

>>11135414
this is a decent thread for a change, please don't pollute it with garbage you only dug up to be outraged

[Anonymous No.11135465]

>>11135414
pop culture was a mistake

[Anonymous No.11135481]

Euripides is a lucky guy.

[Anonymous No.11135485]

>>11135481
He's the guy we can most thank for putting us on the path to individualism

[Anonymous No.11135558]

Can someone suggest some self-study latin courses? Which ones have you used?

[Anonymous No.11135580]

>>11135558

I'm quite fond of the Orberg books.

[Anonymous No.11135583]

>>11135558
I used wheelock's Latin and Essential Latin Vocabulary by Mark A.E. Williams (This is an excellent vocabulary builder - it is based on a statistical study of 200 Latin authors and picks out the 1,425 most common words by frequency. If you learn only the first 25 words by heart you will have 29% of all the vocabulary you will ever encounter in 'real' Latin. Learn 300 and you will have 58%. Learn it all and you will have 95% of the vocabulary you will ever need).

1. Spend a couple months getting noun declensions and verb conjugations thoroughly memorized (i used Gwynne's Latin for this, but wheelock and any other grammar book will have these).

2. Work through wheelock's Latin, doing all the exercise and reading

3. Read through the modified then unmodified excerpts in the back of the book.

4. Get the wheeleock's intermediate reader and work through that

5. Read Latin books

You should be constantly grinding vocabulary. Anki has some good decks, I used one based on wheelock and one based on the vocabulary book I mentioned above.

When reading, try to read for comprehension, not translating as you read.

[Anonymous No.11135588]

>>11113994
Have you figured out the God/Religion Question with a great degree of certainty?

[Anonymous No.11135625]

>>11135580
>>11135583
Thank you.
I'll do as the second poster suggested and supplement with the Orberg books. Seems like the best of both worlds.

[Anonymous No.11135653]

>>11135625

I'll second Anki. You can install it on your phone or use it on a desktop or laptop.

Start your own deck. Keep adding vocab to it.
Go over the cards every day. It shouldn't take much more than 10-15 minutes.

[Anonymous No.11135665]

>>11135625
Bonam fortunam!

[Anonymous No.11135806]

>>11135625
Make sure to do a little every day, consistency is key

[Anonymous No.11136025]

>>11135665
Thanks!
>>11135806
Will do.

Lastly, are there an audio-recording courses or supplements you can suggest too. It's one thing to use the phonetization guide in these books but there is always the worry that I'm botching it.
It don't intend to ever 'speak' it really but I want to make sure it sounds right in my head or if I utter it out loud whilst practicing.
Plus, invoking the auditory pathways of the brain aids with memory consolidation. I don't plan on relying on it, just enough to familiarize myself with how it "should".

[Anonymous No.11136069]

>>11136025
The wheelock website has audio files for all the vocabulary words.
Also there are people in YouTube.

[Anonymous No.11136106]

>>11136025

The Shelmerdine Latin site has a few audio files too I think.

[Anonymous No.11136165]

>>11136025
There are audio recordings of the Orbergs LLPSI books on youtube (and I think you can even find recordings with Orberg himself reading).
There are tons of audio material in general, not relating to any course in particular.
Latinitium has video/audio with good restored pronuntiation.
Then there's this (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfku8EBM-vSJngxGnxpiFS1t4eKPwoFG1)) playlist with various videos, out of the ones I watched I enjoyed "De Aneidos" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMKcBl2e-os&index=50&list=PLfku8EBM-vSJngxGnxpiFS1t4eKPwoFG1)) the most.
The one that had the most impact on me were the recordings of Valahfridus Strohs lectures, held entirely in latin, on various classic topics - which is great since imo that's what latins for.
http://stroh.userweb.mwn.de/main21.html

[Anonymous No.11136270]

>>11135481
Where did you find these volumes? They look lovely. And what translation are they? Is it a verse translation, or did they render everything into prose? I'm more inclined to poetic renderings, personally.

[Anonymous No.11136293]

>>11127398
Scaphism

[Anonymous No.11136320]

>>11136270

I may be wrong, but it looks like it might be a boxed set of the Grene and Lattimore 'Complete Greek Tragedies' from the late 50's or early 60's.

The whole is still available today in a third edition--nine paperbacks in all I think.

http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/series/CGT.html

[Vishnic_Hitler-avatar No.11136488]

Is comparative literature a good thing to delve in to if I wish to compare Classical and renaissance literature?

[Anonymous No.11136555]

>>11136488

Transmission studies might make more sense given the continuities involved, but it depends.

[Anonymous No.11136809]

>>EAT LYING DOWN

[Anonymous No.11136817]

>>11136809

>That feel when you're not allowed to recline

[Anonymous No.11137145]

>>11113994
Who cares? I like shelf posting.

[Anonymous No.11137517]

>>11127229
>>11127074
Apologies for the self bump, but in following from this, are there any sources I can read on additional arguments for "why the Greeks?"

[Anonymous No.11138068]

>>11137145

>I like shelf posting.
Please allow me to post my Classical shelves.

Shelf 1
>Languages/Homer/Hesiod/Presocratics/Plato

Future removals
>Philosophy Before Socrates
>Phaedo (Focus Philosophical Library)
I don't like these two.
>Homer
I may choose to narrow my selection one day
>New Latin Grammar
I might replace this with something else

Some Future additions
>Greek Texts
Greek Plato (Geoffrey Steadman)
>Lingua Latina
Part 2
>Presocratics
I will expand this section

[Anonymous No.11138104]

>>11138068

Shelf 2
>Plato/Aristotle/Middle Platonism

Future removals
>The Cambridge Companion to Plato
A compendium of terrible approaches to Plato. Useful in exposing me to the enemy, but I must discard it now.
>Studies in Plato and the Platonic Tradition
I only really liked a handful of the chapters. I don't want too many of these academic compilations either.
>The Basic Works of Aristotle
The Complete Works supplant it
>Greek Thought: A Guide to Classical Knowledge
An uneven work. I shan't keep it forever.

Some Future additions
>Plato
More translations of my favourite dialogues
>Aristotle
The rest of 'The New Hackett Aristotle Series'. I like Reeve's approach, and I would like some of the more important works in individual volumes for ease of carry.

[Anonymous No.11138122]

>>11138104

Shelf 3
>Neoplatonism

Future removals
>The Cambridge Companion to Plotinus
I don't love this book. I may not keep it forever
>Neoplatonic Philosophy - Introductory Readings
Once I have all the primary sources, this book will be a lot less useful
>Plotinus: The Enneads
I will replace this with the unabridged version

Some Future additions
>Neoplatonism
More of Everything (Especially primary sources). Neoplatonism is my great philosophical love.

[Anonymous No.11138140]

>>11138122

>Shelf 4
>Ancient philosophy/Loebs

Some Future additions
>Stoicism
I very much desire the whole of Seneca
>Loeb
Many more of these (As they avail themselves at good prices)
>Misc
Many more things too, but the need isn't pressing.

[Anonymous No.11138161]

>>11138140

>Shelf 5
>Tragedy/History/Misc

Future removals
>The Aeneid
I will replace this with the unabridged version
>Ovid
I probably won't keep all three translations

Some Future additions
>Plutarch
All of Plutarch
>Tacitus
All of Tacitus
>Landmark
I'll get the latest release once it hits paperback
>Others
Many more things too. (Livy, Pliny, etc.)

***Note. I've been letting prices guide me for a year or two now. This explains some of the strange choices I've made.

[Anonymous No.11138192]

>>11138161
Some good shit man.

[Anonymous No.11138207]

>>11138140

How do you like The Shape of Ancient Thought?

[Anonymous No.11138230]

>>11138207

>How do you like The Shape of Ancient Thought?
Good stuff. I've yet to read another book like it.
The appraisals are measured, yet wide-ranging.
All sorts of cool connections are made.

[Anonymous No.11138235]

I have access to Britannica's great Western books, I already bought and read Fagles' Iliad and Lattimore's Odyssey instead of their Samuel Butler prose translation, I'm wondering what secondary books I should read while going through Herodotus or if there are better translations than the Britannica

[Anonymous No.11138388]

>>11135366
I'll start with Aeschylus.

>>11135588
As certain as I can be: not at all. I will tell you being educated very poorly by lay Catholics destroyed my faith, but the pagan philosophers rekindled it sincerely. And it is fun to think that Christianity today, even the prosperity cults of the unwashed masses, are directly descended from the Platonists, Pythagoreans, and Egyptians. Currently absorbing the Catholic doctrine on the attributes of God: simplicity, immutability, impassibility, etc.

>>11137145
Not everyone does.

>>11138122
Nice collection my guy. No Chaldean Oracles? And yeh I'm also waiting for the paperback Landmark Caesar.

>>11138235
>finished Homer, what next?
Argonautica.

[Anonymous No.11138414]

>>11111537
you should read the rest of the Republic instead of pretending to profundity
>>11112664
mean
>>11125894
you don’t understand that Parmenides had male lovers and so did Soc and nearly all Indo-European cultures had this system of male sexual and romantic bond which far outweighed one’s bond with their mistresses and wives. This is probably a homosexual statement of sentimentality. You are just uncomfortable with your body and with animal lust so you make a value judgement about two virile aristocratic males of good birth, both exalted, erect (upright physically), powerfully built and lusting for each other physically. Its typical of repressed Nords and Germanics and Catholic scum.

Homosexuality is extremely, undeniably trad

[Anonymous No.11138493]

>>11130938
lol no response

its because they’re in a fucking desert, being on the steppe or the desert or the jungle makes you evil

[Anonymous No.11138693]

>>11138235

Tom Holland's Herodotus is very accessible.
The Landmark Herodotus is useful because of its many maps.

[Anonymous No.11138705]

>>11138388
>Nice collection my guy. No Chaldean Oracles?

It is very high on my list. I hope to get the rest of the Prometheus Trust books soon. High shipping costs and bad exchange rates have made me wait a bit. These books will be coming from another country.

[Anonymous No.11138839]

>>11138705
Not perpetratin' on you fambly, just seemed conspicuously absent. Prometheus Trust is tight, and I've read much praise for Majercik. I can see the seeds of so much heresy here: Donatism, Docetists, Marcionites. By heresy ofc I mean difference of theological opinion.

[Anonymous No.11138849]

>>11138839

What Presocratic text is that? I-is t-that actually an English translation of a late Diels/Kranz edition?!

Either way it's nicely laid out so I'm jelly.

[Anonymous No.11138882]

>>11138849
Majercik's Chaldean Oracles. Includes fragments, her commentary, and introduction.

[Anonymous No.11138898]

>>11138849

The Chaldean Oracles have very fine language. Fire plays a big part. Definitely underrated.

[Anonymous No.11139413]

>>11138882

Oh okay.

You also lost big respect for that stub. I know, I know, we're human beings, we all go see stupid trash sometimes, but still.

[Anonymous No.11139535]

>>11139413
The stub was put there for (You) anon. And the film was kino.

[Anonymous No.11139543]

>>11138839
>tfw learning greek

Reading that stuff in the original one day will be so comfy and lit.

[Anonymous No.11139579]

>>11139543
We're gonna make it anon! I've got the alphabet down, and a lot of root meanings derived from English loanwords, but it's still slow going sometimes. It is comfy already, even struggling like a mental deficient.

[Anonymous No.11139682]

>>11139579
yeah i'm still mastering verbs. I can translate simple sentences but my vocab is till very limited.

[Anonymous No.11139789]

A few months into learning Latin here. Around half way through wheelocks as I'm taking it slow, I have other languages I'm learning alongside it.

I'm using anki so I'm retaining essentially all vocab. I'm hype to read Ovid, Caesar and Livy.

How long were most people here learning before they could tackle Caesar? It'll probably be another 2-3 months for me. By tackle I mean make a serious attempt with a dictionary and a lot of time

[Anonymous No.11139827]

>>11139789
Is Wheelock's better than McKeown?
I'm a few chapters into 'Classical Latin an Introductory Course' and I'm not a big fan of the format thus far.

[Anonymous No.11140560]

>>11111159
what's a good companion to Mastronarde's Introduction to Attic Greek? maybe a vocabulary book? is that even necessary or can I jump into translating?

[Anonymous No.11140570]

>>11139789
You'll be able to translate Caesar as soon as you are done the grammar. But to be able to read Caesar will probably take quite a bit longer.
I am starting to read Cicero instead of just translating him after about 15 months and there are still quite a few difficult passages which I have to find a translation to understand.

[Anonymous No.11140704]

>>11140560

I think the "answer key" book is very useful.

[Anonymous No.11140785]

>>11140560
Right here: >>11115064

[Anonymous No.11140791]

Does anyone else find it difficult to learn things if they are routinely engaged in sexual activity?
I feel like I have a lobotomy for 12 hours after fapping or sex. Motivation is particularly affected. Doing anything requiring effort feels like a constant struggle, learning becomes a source of frustration rather than a pleasure.
Throughout my whole life, even before nofap was a thing, I would have to stop totally for a few weeks or months if I wanted to really put my mind to it. Paradoxically, "horniness" goes away if you remove all sexual stimuli and thoughts during this period.
Older literature seems to convey these views. I just want to know if anyone can relate.

[Anonymous No.11140911]

>>11140791
don't cum more than once - that helps me.

[Anonymous No.11141086]

Nonsense in Plato: So i am reading Timaeus right now, and some of his ideas seems really stupid, like he dont know what he is talking about. There is a lot of sentences like "fire and tear makes a colour of blood" or "heart is surounded by lungs, as lungs is soft pillow absorbing heart irrational feelings", like why i should give a fuck. I know Plato probably preceeded any biology or physics studies so he could be wrong, but from today perspective writing like this seems really ridiculous. Explain to me why i feel that way, and why "ontology" as thought as dialectical induction is important.

[Anonymous No.11141224]

>>11141086
>writing like this seems really ridiculous

In many cases deliberately so. Plato is being playful, and almost none of it is to be taken as mere brute fact. Plato is exploring a way of conceiving the world and all of its details are necessarily tentative.

[Anonymous No.11141232]

>>11111159
reading Des Republica now, not sure I'll do any greek/roman classics for a while, though I've been meaning to reread Thucydides.

[Anonymous No.11141253]

>>11141224

My favourite bit of humour is the round head long body thing. There is a literalism to it, but it's also a sort of entertaining myth (using this word very loosely). By motion, of course, Plato means a sort of internal change. This could mean a kind of thinking, but much else besides.

[Anonymous No.11141794]

>>11140911
Even that has negative effects. Doing it at night minimizes the harm but I'm much more productive and energized and in general less horny while abstaining totally.

[Anonymous No.11141814]

>>11141794
then do that

[Anonymous No.11141837]

>>11138104
How is the Modern Library Aristotle collection?
I'm undecided whether to buy it or not.

[Anonymous No.11142402]

>>11141837

I like it. It's a pretty beefy volume with a bit of everything. The translations are fine. Many of the included works appear in the form of 'selections'. This may bother you.

[Anonymous No.11143174]

This is by far the best thread on /lit/ in months

[Anonymous No.11143199]

>>11142402
holy shit that looks like a black dude in a ww2 helmet before u zoom in, i was like aww shit some bad ass postcolonial african mother fucker gettin the modern library treatment then i clicked on it and it was not that at all, freaky

[Anonymous No.11143309]

>>11143199
Are you black by any chance?

[Anonymous No.11143379]

>>11143174
It's wicked comfy in this thread. :)

[Anonymous No.11143625]

>>11127082
>If the threatened calamity should ever come, and the ancient languages cease to be taught, a new literature shall arise, of such barbarous, shallow and worthless stuff as never was seen before.


A prophet.

[Anonymous No.11144036]

greco-roman bump

[Anonymous No.11144050]

>>11115064
Where can I find a list of attic Greek grammar tables? Like the pic suggest

[Anonymous No.11144056]

>>11144050
me too post up us the grammars

[Anonymous No.11144066]

>>11111159
Where can I find a bible in Attic Greek?

[Anonymous No.11144111]

>>11144066
Why do you need it in Attic when it was written in Koine? If you wanna read easy Attic Greek you're better of with the Anabasis or some early Plato.

[Anonymous No.11144175]

>>11144111
I guess because I'm a fuck up. Imma just looking for a Bible that would have been written in whatever the scholar tradition was at the time they were first put together which I believe was 100 AD.

[Anonymous No.11144258]

>>11144175
https://www.amazon.com/Novum-Testamentum-Graece-Nestle-Aland-Greek/dp/1619700301/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1526194818&sr=1-1&keywords=Novum+Testamentum+Graece&dpID=51gLwIo2XZL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

When the NT was put together is a complicated question, but the text I have linked you too is the standard scholarly Greek NT. Good luck.

[Anonymous No.11144304]

>>11144050

You can find 'Introduction to Attic Greek' on Libgen. The paradigms are in the back.

[Anonymous No.11144598]

>>11144258
Not him, but I wanted to learn Koine as well. How much crossover is there between Koine and the dialects the various great philosophers wrote in?

[Anonymous No.11145412]

[Anonymous No.11145423]

>>11141253
>>11141224
thanks, link to a full article??

[Anonymous No.11145431]

>>11144598
If you learn Attic (the dialect Plato, Aristotle, Sophocles, Aeschylus, Euripides, Xenophon, Thucydides among others) wrote in, you will be able to read Koine. If you learn Koine, you will not be able to read Attic, mostly because the grammar is too sophisticated. Koine is a trade language, made to be as simple as possible, which is why it's grammar is far simpler when compared to Attic.

[Anonymous No.11146465]

The hardest part of learning Latin for me is the meter. Long and short syllables instead of stressed and unstressed as in English. Anyone know any good ways to learn/practice this? Are there still stressed syllables in Latin or is it all even or is is just based on context? How much longer is a long syllable than a short one?

[Anonymous No.11146852]

>>11144258
Danke Anon

[Anonymous No.11148105]

Here and in other threads, I've read that one should read Aeschylus before Sophocles, and him before Euripides. Is it because Aeschylus came before Sophocles? Or is there a dramatic reason for that, i.e. Sophocles's tragedies are a reaction to Aeschylus's? Also, how do the comedians fit in this chronology? I think Aristophanes was a contemporary of Euripides, no? And Menander was a more later writer, so I think it's safe to assume that one could read them after the three tragedians if one is taking the chronological route, right?

[Anonymous No.11148392]

>>11146465
yes there is still stress, the rules are very simple and consistent. they are twice as long.

[Anonymous No.11148400]

>>11148105
your assumptions are sensible. just remember that in the end it is not that important in what order you read them.

[Anonymous No.11148640]

>>11148105

What do you think about this?

[Anonymous No.11148707]

>>11148105
>>11148640
The order of reading the tragedies really does not matter that much. Of course, a familiarity with Homer is essential, without this very few of the tragedies will make any sense.
Whilst the order of reading them is hardly important, I would still say start with Aeschylus' Oresteia. My reasoning for advising so is not to meet some autistic urge to read every tragedy in the order of composition, rather, I think it makes a lot more sense in regards to narrative chronology. The Oresteia flows form Homer in a way no other trilogy does, introducing crucial characters who will come up in many other tragedies. For this reason it would start here, and then read the others as you find yourselves interested in them.

[Anonymous No.11148949]

How is Duolingo for learning classical Greek? Doing German and like it, but obviously there's a difference between the two.

[Anonymous No.11149024]

>>11148949
CAN YOU LEARN CLASSICAL GREEK IN DUOLINGO!!!!!

[Anonymous No.11149209]

>>11149024
Sorry, I meant there's obviously a difference between classical and modern greek. The course is modern

[Anonymous No.11149256]

>>11148400
>>11148640
>>11148707

Thanks for the replies, Anons. I think I'll read the Oresteia first as you suggested, and then continue on to Sophocles and Euripides. In other words, I'll read them chronologically, but it's out of convenience more than anything, since I already own the Loeb editions of A. and S., but Euripides is like 6 volumes and I ain't got that much money at the moment.

[Anonymous No.11149273]

>>11148949
>>11149024
Yeah, there’s a pretty massive difference between ancient and modern Greek. If you’re interested in learning Classical Greek, it would be much better to just start studying that and not worry about modern until later if at all.

[Anonymous No.11149292]

What are the eastern equivalent of greek/roman classics?
I guess the four classical chinese books, but what else?

[Anonymous No.11149592]

>>11149292
T'ang and Sung poetry, for one. For Japan, try The Tale of Genji and the Manyoshu for ancient poetry. And read some Buddhist texts as well. Those were revered as much in East Asian cultures as the Greeks and Romans were/are in the West.

[Anonymous No.11149851]

Just passed my Greek language exam, in a shitty school where, after I get my degree I will probably never research and just join in the pool of adjunct wankers. I'm still amazed by people who want to learn greek even though they are outside the shithole that is the academia.

Just don't, learn something useful, german-french-russian whatever, anything but greek or latin. %99 of the things you want to read can be found online and %90 of them have okay if not excellent translations.
Just buy a online loeb subscription.

[Anonymous No.11149905]

>>11149851
>not learning Koine as a show of faith
step up dude, muslims all learn Arabic to read their thing, why shouldn't we?

[Anonymous No.11149920]

>>11149905
Start with the hebrew then, or bette there are also good translations made by comittees of biblical scholars so pick one of those NRSV is always there.

[Anonymous No.11150062]

>>11149920
Nah I'm just shitposting man, sorry things aren't going to great for you. Have you looked outside academia? Financial institutions like classics types.

[Anonymous No.11150129]

>>11145431
This. Learn Attic. Koine is just simplified Attic.

[Anonymous No.11150237]

>>11149851

Why does something I do as a hobby need to be useful? Hobbies by definition are for enjoyment

[Anonymous No.11150275]

>>11149592
Are there any east asian sources talking about greeks and romans?

[Anonymous No.11150366]

>>11149256
How is reading the Loebs of S. and E.? I'm always very suspicious of prose translations of verse.

[Anonymous No.11150425]

Could anyone here help me for some ancient greek translation?

I'm still learning ancient greek and struggle for the use of ὅς, especially which case I should use for it and when I should use it

For example, if I want to translate the sentence "I read what you wrote", is saying "ἀναγιγνώσkω ὅ γέγραφας" correct ? Or should it be ὅν, or another word?

[Anonymous No.11150976]

>>11150275
>Are there any east asian sources talking about greeks and romans?

Sort of. The knew of a great Empire far to the West and tried to establish formal contact with it.

Look up Da Qin. That's what they called it.

[Anonymous No.11151006]

If anyone wants the most comprehensive online resource for Fables:
http://mythfolklore.net/aesopica/index.htm

[Anonymous No.11151023]

why is Euthyphro’s Dilemma such a pain in the ass? think I’m going to watch a Sadler video to help me with this shit.

[Anonymous No.11151079]

>>11151023
It isn't, you are just worshiping false dead Gods.

Our goodness is a portion of the living God's divine inspiration in us. Goodness is a reflection of God. His pious acts have been even further clarified through his covenants with man. I'm not a humanities major so I am not sure what you relativist faggots struggle with when comprehending piety but the euthyphro dilemma has no place in Christianity.

[Anonymous No.11151132]

>>11151023

God and good are one.
It's an argument for divine simplicity.

[Anonymous No.11151143]

>Marble, Sea, and Olive Tree

[Anonymous No.11151212]

[Anonymous No.11151266]

>>11150366
If you aren't going to be reading the original Greek don't bother getting the Loeb.

[Anonymous No.11151680]

>On April 30, 1921, in honor of the 600th anniversary of Dante's death, Pope Benedict XV promulgated an encyclical named In praeclara summorum, calling him one "of the many celebrated geniuses of whom the Catholic faith can boast" and the "pride and glory of humanity".

How can smelly old nerds in bedsheets even compete?

[Anonymous No.11152022]

>>11150366
As with other Loebs, the translations are very literal, so if you want to read a poetic translation in verse, you should be reading another edition. Still, I don't think translating Greek/Latin verse into prose means the translation will be shitty, since it would be impossible to retain the syntax and metre anyway. What the other Anon said is true too, you should only buy Loebs because of the Greek parallel text. But the translations, though literal, are still excellent.

[iliad No.11152723]

>>11111159
>>11131183
>>11131743
>>11138235
>>11138388
Ok, I have to choose an Iliad, I only have two choices, for reasons, its between
Theodore Alois Buckley
and
Edward Smith-Stanley

What do?

[Anonymous No.11152912]

>>11152723
I haven't read either of those. If they are available I'd read the first page or two of each and see which you prefer.

[Anonymous No.11152920]

>Fresco fragment depicting a hermaphrodite

[Anonymous No.11153160]

I'm just going to post this to make the thread autosage, unless it requires, say, 310 posts instead! :^) Either way, I will have pushed the thread one more precious, content-free post to its doom!

[Anonymous No.11153814]

bump

[Anonymous No.11153824]

>>11152920
>Hermaphrodites, Goddess (male) of traps

[Anonymous No.11154420]

>>11153824
Even the Greeks were men of real culture.

[Anonymous No.11155623]

>>11146465
In poetry they should be twice as long, end of story. There is stress, but it's not as strong as in English.

In regular speech long vowels are only somewhat longer than short vowels. In order to maintain the contrast, you must keep your short vowels short first, and only then make your long vowels longer than your short vowels. It's relative.

There are many long vowels in Latin. Try saying "dē rērum nātūrā", or "explōrātōrēs". It's not natural to draw out so many vowels too much, but they must still be identifiably longer. Try listening to living languages with similar contrast, such as Latvian (find a text or subtitles to follow and look for the macrons). Latvian is an inflected Indo-European language similar to Latin where word-final vowel length has a critical importance.

This tool can macronize your Latin texts with a good degree of accuracy:
http://stp.lingfil.uu.se/~winge/macronizer/index.py

[Anonymous No.11155878]

What's the best translation of the satyricon?

[Anonymous No.11156280]

>>11141086
That's the most retarded I've read on this website, well done

[Anonymous No.11156298]

>>11141086
You only think that because you think modern scientific knowledge is infallible and not a collective result of things being proven and unproven successively over thousands of years

[Anonymous No.11156396]

>>11111231
practically every dialogue following the Protagoras changes the concept of the good from pleasure. In the Meno, it's correct opinion (thus not knowledge as it can't be taught); in the Republic, it's sort-of knowledge but this taken into account of the tripartite division of the soul. In the Phaedo, the good is straight up knowledge with a fuck-the-body attitude (go figure, Socrates on his deathbed).

>>11113994
>dat Pseudo-Dionysius
how would you review it?

[Anonymous No.11156438]

>>11156396
>how would you review it?

Not him, but I'm very glad it exists.
I don't think his complete works can be had in another readable English form right now.

The only big problem with it is that it has been translated with both eyes towards religion. Philosophical vocabulary isn't everywhere translated the same way. Without easier access to the Neoplatonic technical terms in the text, it becomes very difficult to correlate philosophical ideas.

[Anonymous No.11156921]

[Anonymous No.11157255]

Imagine that Cato the Elder was your dad!

[Anonymous No.11157310]

>>11157255
Source?

[Anonymous No.11157334]

>>11157310

7.21 Plutarch Life of Cato the Elder 20.4–7: Cato’s son

[Anonymous No.11157511]

>>11157334
Thanks fren

[Anonymous No.11157512]

The best part about reading about Carthage is that the names of their generals were almost exclusively Hannibal, Hamilcar, Hasdrubal or Mago for what seems like 1000 years.