Inclusion in literature

[Anonymous No.11082623]

Do you think about inclusion when you're writing? That is, including characters from underrepresented and oppressed demographics. Like...

>black women
>disabled people
>...

How do you think about representation in literature? Personally, I find it to be very important. When someone reads my work I want them to find characters that looks like them and have had similar experiences. I believe it makes the emotional connection deeper and that the work will be commercially more succesful. (With the exception of straight white men since they are so overrepresented.)

Please, let's keep this discussion civil and keep in mind that racism (outside of /b/) is not ok according to the 4chan rules...

[Anonymous No.11082633]

Bait but you are right OP i would put Black women and disabled people on the same list.

[Anonymous No.11082635]

>>11082623
Yes, when I'm writing horror stories and need a red herring.

[Anonymous No.11082637]

Nice bait OP.

I have characters of various different social groups when it is relevant to the setting and story I am trying to tell, which happens to be fairly often, because the contradictions and interactions of these social groups are interesting to me and still relatively unexplored in literature, especially from a non-moralist perspective that challenges the presumptions of this new secular morale caste of middle class collegiates.

[Anonymous No.11082648]

>his novels have characters
Shig

[Anonymous No.11082650]

>>11082633
I would put redditers on the list.

[Anonymous No.11082658]

>>11082623
I wouldn't go out of my way to include characters from a marginalised background in order to appeal to different groups– using a minority individual as a placeholder for "diversity" in my writing doesn't sit right with me, especially if the aim is to make more money by appealing to a broader audience. I don't believe that people relate better to books which include things that are relevant to their experience, the whole point of a novel is to invest in an imaginative construction of a world that isn't necessarily familiar to you. Minority characters should be included, but only if it serves the story and their representations are handled with delicacy and respect.

[Anonymous No.11082673]

Not bait.

>>11082635
>>11082633
Fuck off racist. Why be racist when you can be quiet?

>>11082637
>when it is relevant to the setting and story
Do you think about how your privilege (are you a cis white male?) can influence the kind of stories you are telling? How do you describe the interactions? That is, what lens do you describe them from (for example: Neo-Marxism)? (If you don't have an ideological lens it will just be your own and that lens might very well be full of privilege or self hate...)

> non-moralist perspective
Explain more what you mean.

>>11082658
> I don't believe that people relate better to books which include things that are relevant to their experience
So if you're a cis white man you will relate better to a book about an oppressed black woman than another privileged cis white man?

> the whole point of a novel is to invest in an imaginative construction of a world that isn't necessarily familiar to you
I agree to some degree, but I wouldn't say that it's the point of a novel and this argument can also be used to exclude marginalised groups from literature. It is very problematic.

[Anonymous No.11082675]

>>11082673
Anon just stop please

[Anonymous No.11082683]

>>11082623
>>11082673

[Anonymous No.11082718]

>>11082623
I don't think about inclusion at all and nobody should. Forcing people to include characters so that bs like "marginalized groups can be represented" is authoritarian and I reject authoritarianism in all forms. So kindly fuck off forever.

[Anonymous No.11082719]

>>11082623
>>11082673
would plunder her natural resources if you catch my drift

[Anonymous No.11082720]

>>11082673
>So if you're a cis white man you will relate better to a book about an oppressed black woman than another privileged cis white man?
I've far more in common with a black contemporary than I do with eg Hamlet, even though Hamlet is white and male. Hamlet lives in medieval Denmark, is a prince, speaks to the ghost of his father etc. It's pretty asinine to think I have more on common with him just because of my skin. Likewise Oliver Twist. I have almost no common ground with a workhouse orphan being led into a life of crime in Victorian London. A black trans woman in contemporary America and I have much more to relate to.

[Anonymous No.11082724]

>>11082623
I write about elves and psychedelics.

[Anonymous No.11082726]

>>11082623
Funny thing is, if she's an Ethiopian Jew, she's likely been sterilized by Israeli government.

[Anonymous No.11082729]

Inclusion is not about white people writing marginalized characters it is about publishing marginalized writers.

[Anonymous No.11082735]

>>11082718
This is such a white post... You're so ignorant of your own privilege. You need to educate yourself.

>Forcing people
That's just you projecting. No one is forcing you. We just ask you to consider your privilege and do your part in making it right.

>>11082720
I'm talking about race here. Holding everything else constant. So what you're saying really isn't relevant.

[Anonymous No.11082736]

>>11082623
An excerpt (1/2)

I get the sense that it’s preparing to shove off on this expedition sooner rather than later. Though before it does, TS makes a point of watching one transmission in particular: a statement made by the leading LGBTQQTIAAC++3L organization’s president and CEO, a weight positive, genderfluctuant, transracial, wheelchair-bound, oxygen-dependent, quadriplegic little person who identifies as a dragon. Originally an able-bodied cisgendered heteronormative Caucasian male, this courageous individual who now calls zirself Omicron Persei 777, was previously a star athlete with three ex-wives and 20 children (12 of whom are illegitimate) before undergoing numerous elective surgeries including a voluntary partial lobotomy, lung volume reduction, and various other procedures to have ended up in such a thoroughly deprivileged state. TS, disrespectful cretin that it is, lacks the human decency to see how noble and brave Omicron is, the mere sight of this infinitely valorous individual makes shitlords like TS burst out in laughter, making events like this speech a comedic goldmine for their breed of filth.
“Markh shird os a d-d-d-dey hat wi-il life on en enema. Heeeee…Heeee… Eit es wiff a hevy h-heh-h-h-h-hert hat we offecally includd he letr “eeeeL” ownto he wrd off toblerone. fur he braav soles hwat Heeeeeeeee…dye-ed He-he-he-he-arr yestirmorrow. Frome no un, Heeeeeeeee… Markh shird ill bee intranatal lizarrdmom memeoreo dei en hon-her off-”
Omicron’s impassioned speech is interrupted by a question from an audience member who is identified by a subtitle as a gender-flatulent weight-negative C++exual on computerized stilts.
“Excuse me, but shouldn’t their letter be T and not L? In xis last speech before xe was struck down, xheir representative said xhey were more closely related to the tardigrade than to reptiles or lizards. Wouldn’t incorrectly identifying xhem as ‘lizardmen’ when they’re really tardigradoids be incredibly problematic and offensive? I know I’d be offended if someone mislabeled me as a pythonphile or Javasexual.”
Naturally, TS finds this entire exchange uproariously funny. Fucking shitlord. Why doesn’t it see how meaningful this kind of discourse is? A gender ambivalent transvehicular unicycleperson chimes in as well.
“Yeah, I’ve only recently transitioned so I have training wheels on while I adjust to life with a unicycle wheel instead of legs but I’d be really offended if someone called me a tricycleperson. Though I think W for Water bear person sounds better than T because it’s a lot cuter.”

[Anonymous No.11082745]

>>11082736
(2/2)

A gender reticulated transweapon torpedoperson (identified as such with a black t-shirt stating this in addition to the subtitle in spite of outwardly having the appearance of an ordinary Caucasian teenage girl) contributes as well.
“Check your heteronormative privilege. Fetishizing them with a cutesy name like that is soooo problematic.”
This discussion goes on for quite some time before it’s decided that the universal tolerancenym will tentatively be changed to LGBTQQTIAAC++3(L/T/W/LT/LW/LTW/LWT/TL/TW/TLW/TWL/WL/WT/WLT/WTL) to accommodate all potential usages and variants pending a response from the reptilians on which one is least problematic. TS nearly dies laughing at the exchange itself and its outcome.
We’ll refrain from examining the comments since I know they’ll be full of even more bigotry than usual. Apparently having been inspired by what it just witnessed, TS removes a pen from one of its pockets and gets to work on an “artistic” depiction of Omicron. Despite having failed or nearly failed most of its art classes back in school, it still occasionally enjoys scribbling various grotesque ill-conceived doodles whenever the mood strikes. This was a favored hobby of TS’s during its schooldays when it’d alternate between sleeping and drawing these misshapen monstrosities in lieu of paying attention during class.
Today’s—opus—takes on the appearance of deformed crawling serpent which drools all over the floor. It appears entirely nude save for a visibly soiled diaper. A speech bubble pointing towards it contains the words “Fuck you, I’m a dragon!” within. This isn’t enough though, as TS now feels the need to draw various pre and post op transpersons, transvehicles, transobjects, transweapons, and transanimals applauding. They’re given speech bubbles with approving exclamations such as “Courageous!” “Transtastic!” and “Detriggering!”. I’m fairly certain that TS made those last two words up due to being far too inarticulate to come up with real words capable of conveying its nonsensical edginess. Having been thus entertained by the struggles of these brave souls, it deems itself ready to begin the descent.

[Anonymous No.11082751]

>>11082735
Thank you, that post being white is the best compliment I've had on my writing in a while.
>No one is forcing you
Except they are when people, like yourself, think they are free of criticism because they are black or female, or because they write about black or female characters. I kindly asked you to fuck off

[Anonymous No.11082756]

>>11082735
>I'm talking about race here. Holding everything else constant.
Why ignore everything else? Why is Oliver's whiteness relevant, but not his poverty, Britishness, parentage, etc? Unless you are a racial essentialist, I don't see why you would privilege skin color above everything else. And if you buy an edition of Oliver Twist without the illustrations, can't you imagine Oliver to be any color you like? But you cannot imagine him not to be an orphan, or poor, or in Victorian London.

[Anonymous No.11082759]

>>11082751
You are a troll, arguing with a larper. Get a grip on your life buddy.

[Anonymous No.11082760]

>>11082673
>So if you're a cis white man you will relate better to a book about an oppressed black woman than another privileged cis white man?
Not necessarily. My ability to relate with a protagonist has nothing to do with the events or circumstances of the plot, nor even with the identities or status of the characters. It depends on how well-written they are, rather than what actually happens to them in the story. It's disingenuous to suggest that readers are so inwardly concerned that they will only relate to or sympathise with a character if they share their experiences and identity with them. Isn't the point of inclusivity intended to heal the divide between different groups, rather than imposing more arbitrary divisions between us? Why can't I, as a white cis man, feel and resonate with the powerful emotionality of a book concerned with the black American experience like pic related?

>this argument can also be used to exclude marginalised groups from literature
Surely its the exact opposite? Readers should invest in a book which paints a picture of a world that is entirely alien to you– If anything a book of that kind would be more likely to include marginalised groups, because they are in many ways "alien" or "other" to your everyday experiences. Take Heart of Darkness for example– While the book is undeniably racist, it is important to contextualise that racism as the inexplicable horror of seeing oneself through the eyes of the other; or, conversely, recognising a kernel of the self embedded in the other. This staggering realisation– that the other is closer to us than we are willing to admit – can only be brought about by experiencing the culture shock of the other's habits, rituals and literatures.

[Anonymous No.11082783]

>>11082729
>publishing marginalized writers
100% agree, but... white people also has to do their part.

>>11082751
Yeah fuck off. You're a disgusting white supremacist.

>>11082756
This is what I call an "ALL LIVES MATTER" argument. You don't want to focus on race so you say "WHY NOT CONSIDER ALL THESE OTHER THINGS??? HUH!!!!".

NO... SIT. I'm shutting your cis white male ass DOWN. You can focus on those other things as well, but that doesn't mean that you have to do it all at once.

NOW, we focus on race.

>>11082760
> My ability to relate with a protagonist has nothing to do with the events or circumstances of the plot
>> has nothing to do with the events or circumstances of the plot
Can you honestly say that? Really?? It has nothing to do with it?! I refuse to believe that and even if you're telling what you think is the truth I think you're lying to yourself.

So all else equal (the writing quality etc.) you can identify as much with a story about a trans black woman as a cis white male?

> Isn't the point of inclusivity intended to heal the divide between different groups, rather than imposing more arbitrary divisions between us?
Can you heal the divide between a rapist and the rape victim? Why do you demand that the victims of white supremacy should just accept that? This is your white privilege shining though. I'm not saying that you're a bad person, but you have to understand that as a cis white male there're so many things that you can never understand. You have to accept that.

>>11082760
>Surely its the exact opposite? Readers should invest in a book which paints a picture of a world that is entirely alien to you– If anything a book of that kind would be more likely to include marginalised groups, because they are in many ways "alien" or "other" to your everyday experiences. Take Heart of Darkness for example– While the book is undeniably racist, it is important to contextualise that racism as the inexplicable horror of seeing oneself through the eyes of the other; or, conversely, recognising a kernel of the self embedded in the other. This staggering realisation– that the other is closer to us than we are willing to admit – can only be brought about by experiencing the culture shock of the other's habits, rituals and literatures.
Fair enough.

[Anonymous No.11082798]

>>11082726
You don't know what you're talking about and you're being anti-Semitic.

[Anonymous No.11082800]

>>11082783
Whining like a bitch. Typical SJW cunt. Has no arguments but "You're racist". What a weakling. By the way I can post pretty black women too.

>>11082759
How many levels of irony are you currently operating on?

[Anonymous No.11082803]

>>11082783
>white people have to do their part
By publishing marginalized writers. If they write characters that are marginalized all you get is dishonesty and cringe (see DFW). But you are just larping because racism is not allowed on blue boards

[Anonymous No.11082828]

What does "relating" mean?

[Anonymous No.11082836]

>>11082783
>This is what I call an "ALL LIVES MATTER" argument. You don't want to focus on race so you say "WHY NOT CONSIDER ALL THESE OTHER THINGS??? HUH
Nope. I'm saying race is not a bar to understanding or empathising with a character, any more than any other aspect of a person.
But hey, please keep posting the qts

[Anonymous No.11082841]

ha ha! whitebois got REKT

[Anonymous No.11082850]

>>11082623
I tell stories about white people because I’m white. I couldn’t possibly begin to understand what it’s like to be a person of color. I would feel like I was usurping their racial identity and culturally appropriating their blackness or asianess for my own commercial gain. I’ll never write a black character as well as a black person so I leave that up to black authors, and same for other characters of color. I’ll continue to write about white trash and WASP characters because those are the people I understand and have been a part of their world.

[Anonymous No.11082854]

No, I write for myself and not to indulge the masses. I personally believe you can empathize with people outside of your cultural and racial group so I don't agree with your proposition. I also don't think pathos is achieved by having "relatable" characters. I also think writing to be commercially successful doesn't mean you will create good art. Are you an artist or a propagandist op

[Anonymous No.11082857]

>>11082783
>you can identify as much with a story about a trans black woman as a cis white male?
i've never read a book about a black trans woman, so I can't comment on that (although you'd be right to suggest that I am at fault here for not reading broadly enough). However, I will identify with whichever character is portrayed with great depth, nuance and complexity. My empathy for characters lies with the skill of the author in making me feel for them, rather than simply playing a game of culture bingo in which I tick a box whenever something relevant to me is referenced.

>Can you heal the divide between a rapist and the rape victim?
No, but that doesn't mean victims aren't capable of forgiveness, and to imply they aren't only reinforces their victimhood status. By denying them closure you're reducing them to be defined by the trauma they faced in the past, rather than allowing them to look towards a brighter future.

>This is your white privilege shining though
Yeah, well, your calvinistic attitude to social injustice is fucking retarded and is exactly what is holding back social progression.

[Anonymous No.11082863]

>>11082850
>I couldn’t possibly begin to understand what it’s like to be a person of color.
It isn't that different from being white.

> I would feel like I was usurping their racial identity and culturally appropriating their blackness or asianess for my own commercial gain
You should do that just because it riles up the people who deserve to be riled up. If it gives you commercial gain, even better.

> I’ll continue to write about white trash and WASP characters because those are the people I understand and have been a part of their world.

"Understanding" things is overrated. Just write what is true.

[Anonymous No.11082868]

>>11082850
This is just lazy and racist. If Shakespeare, a black woman, can write sensitively and insightfully and empathatically about white male characters, you can surely do similar.

[Anonymous No.11082882]

>>11082863
>it isnt that different from being white
Well that depends on what socio-economic class you belong to. Even still i am sure there are rich details that would be missed if you had no experience with it yourself. But in general the monoculture of the U.S. means any writer is telling a similar story of shabby privilege in a world of people who live on basically nothing and are too busy surviving war to bloviate on their inner life.

[Anonymous No.11082885]

>>11082868
I’m admitting I’m not as good as Shakespeare.

[Anonymous No.11082890]

>>11082863
>It isn't that different from being white.
How is it possible to know this? The experience of Whiteness is surely too rich and complex to be encapsulated by any writer of color

[Anonymous No.11082892]

>>11082885
At least you're acknowledging black excellence. It's a start I guess

[Anonymous No.11082895]

>>11082892
Blacks are excellent at a lot of things. Idk why you are surprised when people admit it.

[Anonymous No.11082897]

>>11082863
If I wrote black characters it wouldn’t be true, it would be a dishonest thing I did for commercial gain as the OP wants to do.

[Anonymous No.11082947]

>>11082623
This thread was going a mile a minute with the black cuties and now nothing. Is this the extent of the fuckable black women in the world? just a handful?

[Anonymous No.11082960]

>>11082673
Hey! They had been civil, eat your own words or keep yourself quit.

[Anonymous No.11082967]

>>11082623
but i don't want to read books about faggots sitting infront of the pc while fapping
fuck you and fuck inclusion

[Anonymous No.11082968]

>>11082623
i purposefully write about retarded characters because i think its funny

is that inclusive

[Anonymous No.11082970]

>>11082673
stop man, please, please stop.

Please anon stop

[Anonymous No.11082979]

>>11082968
If retarded people could understand you they would probably laugh too, they’re good natured that way.

[Anonymous No.11082983]

>>11082970
Hey how is your day going

[Anonymous No.11082997]

>>11082623
the year is 2028. you have been ordered to attend a state mandated screening of StarWars XXIX: Avengers Assemble, the latest DisneyGooglePepsiCo motion picture extravaganza, you get to the theater, Barney the Dinosaur and Mickey Mouse strap you into a chair, forcing your eyes open 'Clockwork Orange' style. The screen flickers on, but the images have nothing to do with space adventures of superheroes, instead, the audience is treated to what looks like blurry VHS footage of 5 bluehaired 'fat positive' Queers(tm) raping an innocent white child. The progs in the audience are moved to tears by such an inclusive and heartwarming display of diversity and progress, YAS KWEEN! YAS KWEEN SLAY! they rave and cheer. Meanwhile, you think 'gee, maybe I should have joined the alt right before it was too late'

[Anonymous No.11083001]

gas the kikes race war now

[Anonymous No.11083003]

>>11082970
I love identity politics type discourse for the wonderful opportunities it presents when it comes to gaslighting people and messing with their neuroses.

[Anonymous No.11083015]

>>11082997
>has a problem with cultural capitalism
>blames it on a few members of the Frankfurt school

[Anonymous No.11083024]

>>11083015
The frankfurt school were a bunch of irrelevant kvetching jews who didn't really have a meaningful impact on history either way. That's why I didn't bring them up. The real culprit is fags/trannies imo. slippery slope is real.

[Anonymous No.11083034]

>>11083024
Oh well i heard cultural marxism thrown around a lot itt.

[Anonymous No.11083045]

>>11082897
>it wouldn’t be true, it would be a dishonest blah blah blah
You aren't even using the correct meanings of these words. Whatever, you sound like some kind of a socialist.
>implying you couldn't just research to find out what the truth is, without any personal experience on the matter

[Anonymous No.11083050]

>>11083045
>research instead of experience
The absolute state of incel autists

[Anonymous No.11083062]

>>11083050
Your experience, and especially your interpretation of said experience could be wrong. Even if you have some personal experience on something you'll be better off actually researching it to gain a more objective perspecitve.

If the thing you're writing about is skin colour, you should probably start from the wikipedia article for melanin.

[Anonymous No.11083067]

>>11083062

[Anonymous No.11083076]

>>11082803
Not always. Take "The Lord of the Rings" for example. It needs more characters with dark BLACK SKIN. etc. etc.

>>11082857
I'm not denying anyone anything. I'm just saying that you can't expect forgiveness.

>>11082850
>I tell stories about white people because I’m white
Disgusting white supremacist.

>>11082967
>>11082968
>>11083001
>>11082997
Fuck off.

[Anonymous No.11083084]

>>11083076
you're taking the bait too far

[Anonymous No.11083086]

>>11083076
I want to be hooked up to her with some sort of harness system so that when she runs like this she titty fucks me.

[Anonymous No.11083092]

>>11083076
LotR is already written. And besides would it not be more true for a person of color to write based on her own culture's mythos? I personally would really enjoy more African based fantasy. Unironically.

[Anonymous No.11083097]

>>11083076
The Lord of the Rings has plenty of dark skinned characters, they all try to destroy middle earth

[Anonymous No.11083123]

>>11083092
>And besides would it not be more true for a person of color to write based on her own culture's mythos?
Lord of The Rings is based on Norse and saxon mythology, so it is the mythos of people of color. Unless you think all the vikings and saxons were white

[Anonymous No.11083128]

>>11083097
And that's racist. Why isn't Gandalf black?

[Anonymous No.11083143]

my writing doesn't include women let alone niggers

[Anonymous No.11083146]

>>11083128
Gandalf isn't even a human

[Anonymous No.11083150]

>>11083092
those lgbtpocwocs have no culture beyond harry potter and internet neuroses, anyways. they are detached in every meaningful way from their 'authentic' 'marginalized' culture, that's why they are so defensive of superficial signifiers such as clothing food and corporeality(ie. wanting characters in books to 'look like them'). ask them about any aspects of culture that are more than skin deep, ie. family, values, religion, and you will see they are standard party line deracinated western liberals like everybody else. their concept of culture only exists in reference to the white 'big other' they demand recognition from.

http://www.vulture.com/2017/08/the-toxic-drama-of-ya-twitter.html

[Anonymous No.11083174]

In my story there are only white fuccbois doing lewd yaoi shit presided over by a cuter and male version of a dictator with heavy profascist and eugenic European setting. One loli and one woman because they were in the story ages ago but only the boys are getting fugged.

[Anonymous No.11083179]

>>11083174
cute, anon

[Anonymous No.11083188]

>>11083146
Neither are blacks.

[Anonymous No.11084039]

>>11083128
Should have been.