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/lit/ - Literature

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11017489 No.11017489[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Can american libtards recommend this book?

>> No.11017494

>>11017489
sorry i meant littards

>> No.11017504

>>11017489
I have it but I haven't read the whole thing. The most I know about it is that it doesn't paint Lincoln as the hero who saved the slaves and thought they were equal to white people, because he wasn't, so that's good.

>> No.11017525

>>11017504
I've also only ever read excerpts, but based on what I've seen it almost seems like a book full of contrarian viewpoints. Not to claim they're wrong in any way, just that I've gotten the impression that Zinn almost wrote the book solely to overturn popular misconceptions he didn't like. Then again, those might just be the popular parts that people usually pull out for excepts, so feel free to ignore my opinion.

>> No.11018735

>>11017525
zinn got utterly bootyblasted that he got to fry krauts in wwii so he decided to write a book where america did every single thing wrong in every situation

>> No.11018742

>>11018735
also as a jew he was mad that he had to call some old wasps "the founding fathers" which he strictly reserve for patriarchs of israel

>> No.11018805

>>11018742
the people in america in 1776 were all WASPS though, even the proles.

>> No.11018813

>>11018805
not true
there were also negroes

>> No.11018814

>>11018813
also sum injuns

>> No.11018824

>>11018805
Spanish. French.

>> No.11018831

one redeeming thing about zinn was the night bust started the iraq war somebody at pbs newshour goofed and had him as a guest that night and all the other talking heads were like "zomg gotta secure da wmds!" "oh boy we spreadin democracy to da middle east! we liberatin!" and zinn was just like "this will go down as an atrocious stain on the legacy of the united states" and that fat homosexual latino that they hired for affirmative action purposes who was moderating started to look like he ate some bad tacos

>> No.11018836

>>11018824
sorry faglord florida and louisiana weren't part of america in 1776

>> No.11018845

>>11018831
the iraq war was a good thing though

>> No.11018853

>>11018845
t. israeli

maybe for YOU

>> No.11018947

>>11018853
and kurds
and americans
and iraqis

>> No.11018955

>>11018947
did u see the nytimes having a sob story today for isis members getting sentenced to death when they try to retreat to iraq, isis has to be a cia front why else would the nytimes be tryna make us feel sad that they failed in syria?

>> No.11018961

>>11018955
link to that? sounds nytimey

>> No.11018990

>>11017489
There are only two things you need to understand in depth about the us anon: the frontier period, and the automobile era. Everything else is window dressing for autists and libtards and means nothing in the larger scheme of things. Slavery is nothing unique, government structures and founding fathers aren't unique, only those two things define our culture.

>> No.11018993

>>11018947
There is no way that isn't some sort of irony. Try harder anon

>> No.11019006

>>11018961
>https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/17/world/middleeast/iraq-isis-trials.html

>> No.11019014

Good perspective on American history that /lit/ is going to tell you is trash because a) it was written by a Jew and b) because it's a progressive, anti-imperialist analysis.

>> No.11019028

>>11019014
how the fuck is the progressive agenda not imperialist? They literally try to foist their particular religion (liberal multicultural consumerism) on all other peoples world over and attack anyone who says otherwise

>> No.11019046

>>11019028
not trying to be pretentious but learn more about progressivism, what it is, and its traditional meaning. Read some actual leftist literature and not just /lit/ threads. People like Zinn and Chomsky are about as far from authoritarian/implerialist on the political scale as one can be.

Plus I meant imperialist in the sense of going overseas and killing brown people for economic/resource benefits.

>> No.11019055

>>11019028
Neo-liberal /=/ progressive

>> No.11019056

>>11019028
of course it's imperialist, we go around the world tearing up traditional cultures in the name of human rights, women's rights, gay rights, etc. which is really all a way to open up their markets to western lifestyle consumption, it's imperialist as hell, but the left stopped being leftist a long time ago

>> No.11019062

>>11019046
No, their belief system is in itself imperialist. Physicalism/scientism rejects the possibility of subjective realities and fetishizes the material. It will always be moral from their point of view to "improve living conditions" in other nations and in other groups (white lower class, black community, etc.) which means forcibly implementing a consumerist/physicalist belief system

>> No.11019065

>>11019056
>US and its military are progressive
>we're fighting wars over women's rights
>gay rights
the actual state of /lit/. Fuck this board. Does anyone here actually read books?

>> No.11019081

>>11019065
have we ever fought a war to remove rights? no we wage wars as rights bringers, law givers, we have liberated u from oriental oppression and give you the holy laws of human rights

>> No.11019087

>>11019065
try thinking critically for once your life you milquetoast liberal piece of shit

>> No.11019088

>>11019065
Do you agree with the concept of human rights? I'd say that's pretty progressive. It's also imperialist as fuck and no amount of midwit literature will change that

>> No.11019103

>>11018993
Feel free to bring up any evidence to the contrary faggot

>> No.11019120

>>11019103
I fucked your mom last night

>> No.11019121
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11019121

>>11019087
Try actually providing an example, you lazy pseud. Name a single war in US history that's been fought for women's rights or gay rights.

>>11019081
This is so uninformed it's not worth entertaining. Wars are fought for the domestic interests of their countries. If those interests happen to coincide with democratic ideals or be good for the world in the long run, okay. But we've overthrown democratically elected leaders, told countries how to run their financial systems, and of course restricted the rights of our own citizens time and time again. But I'm sure you'll say that the government knows best and those people who participated in democracy didn't know what they were doing, or some other retarded bullshit.

>> No.11019129

>>11019121
none, because people don't fight wars over religion. The ideal is imperialist but it's ultimately used to justify base greed.

>> No.11019131

>>11019088
Human rights are progressive; our government using human rights as a justification does not mean that's the real reason we've invaded a country.

>> No.11019135

>>11019062
You actually thought this was an intelligent reply, didn't you

>> No.11019149

>>11019131
If Myanmar enacted a law requiring the immediate execution of all homosexuals and athiests and removed women's property rights, would intervention be moral?

>> No.11019157

>>11019149
Idk. But I doubt it'd be pragmatic to begin with.

>> No.11019159

>>11019135
yeah because it objectively is, prove otherwise with flaws in logic chain (not just giving your own alternative interpretation like a retard and screaming "mom, I btfo this guy on the internet b/c I have a simplistic idea that doesn't fit with his!" I mean actual flaws) or kindly fuck off

>> No.11019160

>>11019121
i bet you will support the next war as soon as the nytimes publishes a long ass investigative report into how whoever we are bombing next oppressed gays or discriminated against women etc. i have no doubt about it, soys can always be brought on board for the next war with some tear jerkers about oppressed homos and school girls

>> No.11019169

>>11019149
oh yeah u can tell myanmar is the next long term regime change objective, guaranteed this soy will be crying tears for the rohynga after reading about their oppression in the nytimes and then get on board for a few bombing runs

>> No.11019171

>>11019160
Cool. You can speculate about an anon all you'd like, even though I've said several times in this thread neoliberalism and interventionism suck huge cock. Still waiting for an explanation of how progressivism is tied in any meaningful way to imperialism, though.

>> No.11019173

>>11019120
damn man how many vaccinations did you get as a child

>> No.11019182

You faggots literally cannot comprehend that someone believes in human rights and isn't a soyboy Hillary dickrider. This board really is turning into /pol/

>> No.11019190

>>11019171
dude read the history of progressism, the whole idea was that the bourgeois know whats best for society and if they can just get more of these awful proletarians to stop drinking like fish and fucking like rabbits they could have nice things, now applied to a global scale, if only those damn muslims could be liberal like us progressive their society would be nice and prosperous too!

oh also get ready for environmental excuses for future wars, i'm sure in future war propaganda liberals will be brought on board by saying the country to be bombed was irresponsible with green house gas emissions or some shit, and you will eat it up like a fag in a bukakke sesh

>> No.11019195

>>11019182
do you believe in the human rights of, say... the palestinians?

>> No.11019194

>>11019182
>america was the bad guy in the civil war, wwi, and wwii
yeah he cares so much about human rights

>> No.11019201

>>11017489
i unblocked /lit/ and this was the first thing I see, you're all subhuman and I pray for your immolation in the flames of Shiva's purifying judgement of this mortal world

>> No.11019211
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11019211

>>11019195
>human rights
>HUMAN

>> No.11019219

>>11019159
>muh progressive fascists
you sound like a fucking boomer crybaby
believing that someone else's ideas or way of life are wrong or harmful is obviously not the same as invading another country to enforce conformity

>> No.11019221

>>11017489
any volume purporting to be a complete history of a nation will inevitably be too broad to have meaningful analysis or conclusions. focus on a period of time, place, and/or topic you are interested in knowing more about, then look up books that have won awards or prizes. AHA and OAH prizes are dece indicators of quality research

on the other hand, you can look at lists of prize winners and pick up something that sounds cool

>> No.11019222

>>11019194
>Civil War
you really bought the Lincoln wanted to free the slaves meme, huh?
>WW1
you can't be serious
>WW2
and then we fought in WW2 to save the Jews!

nothing wrong with protecting yourself by the way. WW2 and maybe 1 could be argued for with this, and if the Union's motivation was actually to free the slaves and not just a side effect of it I'd probably be down for that. Of course it was just about preserving the nation, though.

>> No.11019239

>>11019182
natural rights are a meme. the entire enlightenment was an aberration in the development of common human intellect that we will with any luck abandon this century

>> No.11019242

>>11019222
Lincoln did want to free the slaves. He was an abolitionist you retard. He said he didn't want to free the slaves because he couldn't risk losing the war. However, he literally freed the slaves immediately upon realizing he could. The war was fought because the Confederacy attacked the United States.

>> No.11019243

>>11019195
I'm sure this is going down a "muh murdering Israelis" path that will pretend a decades-old conflict can be summarized in a quippy sentence, but yeah, of course I do. Everyone's human rights would be respected in an ideal world, and Israelis wouldn't shoot Palestinian journalists.

>> No.11019249

>>11019242
>realizing he could
>equitable to setting out to do just that
Of course the war was fought because of the Confederacy attacking at Sumter; that's literally the entire point of the unification comment, you retard.

>> No.11019250

>>11019243
back to /pol/ faggot, god damn /lit/ sure is filled with alt-right kooks lately

>> No.11019252

>>11017525
Contain isn't the right stance. What Zinn is trying to do is present another way of looking at history. He does this through the lens of the have nots, or the people. He even opens stating this aim irc.

>> No.11019256

>>11019222
In all those wars, regardless of the reason for America entering it, the enemy were far, far worse abusers of human rights:
Confederacy: slavery
Central powers: slaughter of belgian/french civilians, Armenian genocide
Axis: too many to list
I can't possibly comprehend how you do not understand this.

>> No.11019265

>>11019250
apparently it's anti-semitic to say Palestinians have rights, just like Israelis have rights. What do you want me to do? Tell you the Holocaust was real and Jews are good people who don't want to run the world? Because that's all true, too.

>> No.11019271

>>11019256
>Confederacy: slavery
but not the slaughter of 600,000, moreover the death of slavery was not initially an object of the war effort
>Central powers: slaughter of belgian/french civilians, Armenian genocide
The only great crime there is the last, and the turks went pretty much unpunished for i t
>Axis
Only just war mentioned, but the jews had already been slaughtered by the time we entered the war. Probably more lives would have been saved by letting Hitler have Europe.

>> No.11019280

>>11019271
>Probably more lives would have been saved by letting Hitler have Europe.
Honestly, I didn't realize until this sentence that you are a /pol/edditor and not just a retarded /his/autist. I am entirely sorry for engaging you in any place.

>> No.11019300

>>11019280
>I am entirely sorry for engaging you in any place.
That's a pretty common sentiment among those with no argument.

>> No.11019309
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11019309

>>11019194
I never said America was the bad guy, you faggot. I said nations act in their own interests.

>> No.11019317

>>11019309
I don't think there's a single person in this thread who isn't a retard

>> No.11019321

>>11019317
>I don't think
we knew that already fag

>> No.11019325

>>11019317
meant to add
especially you /his/tier image faggot >>11019309

>> No.11019340

>>11019321
Not him but this is weak. Much like your spindly arms, I'm sure.

>> No.11019352

>>11019317
welcome to 4chan enjoy your stay

>> No.11019359

>>11019340
>Not him but
his*
and yes you are

>> No.11019367

>>11019081
Why did we supply arms to Indonesia when they invaded East Timor?

>> No.11019370

>>11019359
Nope. And your joke was really bad.

>> No.11019380

>>11019370
cope

>> No.11019385

>>11019367
why do we supply arms to saudi arabia when they bomb the shit out of yemen? yemeni has terrorists and are mean to women so they voided their human rights and deserve to die, east timor was probably filled with communists who wanted to take away our freedoms

>> No.11019396

>>11019385
Saudi Arabia doesn't deserve shit from us either but you are retarded to think East Timor was a viable threat to the United States

>> No.11019408

>>11019396
oh but i suppose you think syria is viable through tho? or libya? the last viable threat to the united states the civil war

>> No.11019435

>>11019408
you're too bad a writer and too uninformed for this conversation. I'm outie.

>> No.11019441

>>11019435
wait arent u going to tell me about how drumpf and the russians are colluding with assad and only madame president can save us from destruction by carpet bombing syria?

>> No.11019468

>>11019441
Nah because the Russia investigation is a joke and Hillary is a dumb cunt. But you're so dogmatic from years of browsing /pol/ and /b/ that this conversation would have been a waste of time.

>> No.11019469

>>11019441
The fact you won't even challenge the argument he's making just goes to show how ignorant you are.

>> No.11019480

>>11019468
you are so stupid man, i've been attacking you from the left the whole time but you're so committed to liberal bullshit that you can only think anyone who isn't on-board for the next imperialist bombing run must be a rightwing nationalist. you don't hate syria? you dont hate myanmar? you don't hate china? what are you some kind of alt-right nazi?! kill yourself my soy

>> No.11019488

>>11019469
what argument? that anyone who doesn't support imperialist war is a nazi? yeah good argument man, you're a big smarty

>> No.11019497

>>11019488
I've been trashing imperialism this whole thread.

>> No.11019513

>>11019497
>we have a license to kill brown ppl in the name of progress cuz they mean to women
>i dont support imperialism

well ok if u say so