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/lit/ - Literature

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10983795 No.10983795 [Reply] [Original]

How does it fare against C&P and The Idiot?

>> No.10983906

>>10983795
Bumping for interest

>> No.10983931

>>10983795
bumping too. I didn't care for the idiot considering the massive praise it gets on this board. Some even claiming it superior to the brothers karamazov. But, clearly those people are contrarian faggots. C&P was better then the idiot. I've read all but Demons, but all I can find so far is that horrid P&V translation.

>> No.10983948

>>10983795
God damn it, this is the only book by him I've read (still reading) and apparently people say it's the last book you should read by him. Is that true?
Also I like it, it's good if you don't mind slow pacing and sometimes lengthy explanations (not saying those are bad things at all), but I'm assuming his other stuff is like that too.

>> No.10984027

>>10983948
Yeah, most of his books involve slow pacing and lenghty explanations. However, those are the things I like the most about him, so it makes me glad it's there.
I loved C&P. It was such a unique book for me, because it has a great plot, but also philosophical debates and psychological investigations, long dialogues, Dosto's own rants, etc. I felt that The Idiot was pretty different from C&P, even though those elements are also present. I guess I just didn't really feel attached to any of them (C&P made me love every single character, whereas I hated every single female character, especially the autistic one who doesn't know if she wants to marry the Prince and Nastasya. Fuck them). I've also read Notes, and while I thought it was a great book, I was in a very depressed stage, and the only theme that stuck with me was the Underground Man's misanthropy and incapacity to be a sane human, missing out on all the philosophical undertones. Also, it's been a while since I've read it.
Now, I have Demons sitting here in my bookshelf, but it's not by any means a short book, and with my college obligations, I'm trying to pick books I'm almost 100% sure I'll enjoy. I'm not sure why I'm hesitating, considering Doestoyevski is one of my favourite writers, but here I am. Those are the reasons as to why I'm asking the question.

>> No.10984050

>>10983795
I just bought that exact edition recently.

>> No.10984057

>>10983795
I just finished it last week. It's better than Crime and Punishment in my opinion.

>> No.10984065

>>10984057
How so?

>> No.10984087
File: 337 KB, 712x979, Nechayev (2).png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10984087

On my backlist. Attracted by it being a fictionalised retelling of Sergey Nechayev's life; the epitome of pathological and demonic communist man. Read a short bio of Nechayev's life and his major work: Catechism of a Revolutionary to get his significance and the depth of his historical character:
>Catechism of a Revolutionary
https://www.marxists.org/subject/anarchism/nechayev/catechism.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Nechayev

Nechayev actualised the demonic archetype that has animated Leftism in various degrees since the French Revolution. Dost's profile of it ought to be worth reading.

>> No.10984105
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10984105

>>10984050
>buying penguin classics

>> No.10984108

>>10984065
Let's say Crime and Punishment builds upon the raising of Lazarus. Demons builds on the exorcism of the Gerasene demoniac where Jesus sends all the demons from a man into swine that drown themselves. Demons is many Raskolnikovs running around turning in this city into shit, it gets way darker and chaotic than Crime and Punishment did and doesn't have the final chapter of a resurrection, this book is swine drowning, possessed by their demons that are progressive ideas. Everyone is shady and playing mindgames, it shows the psychological beginnings to how a community can be turned to chaos. There is murder, rape, hysteria, arson, it's quite the package. Starts slow the first 2-300 pages but trust me once it takes of the stage is set for that fast pitched immersive fever dream that Dosroevsky is so good at, and here he delivers on all levels, from single persons to the whole nation.

>> No.10984110

>>10983931
Can anyone explain to me their hate for P&V or do does /lit/ just hate them because they work for (((penguin)))?

>> No.10984123

>>10984105
Don't listen to this fag, it's a great copy with one of the most recent translations from Robert A Maguire

>> No.10984129

>>10984110
This guy is an idiot too, OPs pic isn't even P&V ffs

>> No.10984179

>>10984108
Thanks. Sounds excellent.

>> No.10984184

>>10984123
>>10984110
Can someone honestly explain the hate for Penguin?

>> No.10984192

>>10984108
One of the things I like the most about it is the really subtle psychological aspect of it. It portrays manipulative and mentally ill people extremely well.

>> No.10984213

>>10984192
Poor Andrey and his dumbfuck wife

>> No.10984385

>>10984184
They're cheap, shitty, and ugly. The trifecta of planned obsolescence. Get yourself a nice Everyman's.

>> No.10984431
File: 174 KB, 900x729, cuphead.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10984431

>>10984385
Jee it's almost like some people don't even care about a books contents

>> No.10984568

>>10984431
Yeah, like people who purchase Penguin classics.
>i care so little about the contents of this book that I'm only going to read it once because the next time I go to take it from my shelf it will already be crumbling into ash and dust
Only non-readers buy that tacky, brittle trash

>> No.10984579

>>10984568
Or, you know, you can just own different translations and copies of books you like

>> No.10984588

>>10984568
Also I've had Penguins Demons for 10 years and have read it twice and it is holding up perfectly fine.

>> No.10984602

>>10984568
>t. incapable of taking care of my belongings

>> No.10984680

If you don't buy your books second hand at 3 bucks for a 50 year old hardback book in perfect condition you are stupid

>> No.10984738

>>10984568
Nigger wtf are you doing with your books

>> No.10984811

>>10984738
Virgin cradling them. Wtf is penguin doing with their bindings

>> No.10985380

>>10984027
sounds like you should put it off for another time. It's going no where and you could ingest so much other works in the mean time, short and easily digestible. It is a tome afterall

>> No.10985391

>>10984110
You can find criticisms of their translations online, just goggle it. But, to boil it down basically they were just marketing hype and aren't particularly accurate in tone or structure to the original.

>> No.10985410

>>10983795
As good as C&P, better than The Idiot, worse than TBK.

>> No.10985455

>>10983931
I like The Idiot more than TBK. Sue me.

>> No.10985537

>>10985455
your personal preference wasn't what i was speaking about. the brother karamazov is dostoyevksy distilling all his philosophy into a single novel. The narrative and scope surpasses the idiot on every level. It's dosto's magnum opus. I like notes from the underground as his second best work, but that doesnt mean its a superior novel to c&p and I wouldnt pretend this choice to be anything other then my personal preference

>> No.10985596

>>10984110
Literalness is priority number one for them, to the point of sometimes sacrificing tone and even misconstruing themes, e.g. "wicked man"

>> No.10985651

>>10985596
Pevear be like 'duuude, they were all mistaken to go with 'spiteful' when translating 'злoй'. Then he decides to translate it into 'wicked' and 'wickedness' whereas 'evil' would be much better as it has the right self-mocking, slightly reserved quality when used in self-reflection.

>> No.10985665

It's a political pamphlet heavily influenced by the warped view of a reactionary first and foremost.
If you can get over that it's an OK read but I liked all other works by Dostoevsky more.

>> No.10986082
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10986082

>>10984105
> owning Epic of Gilgamesh
> it's not the Penguin classic edition

>> No.10986087

>>10984184
they're cheap and cost-effective editions
the negative is that sometimes their spines aren't great and it's easy to crease them if the book is large
also I suppose they don't always have the best translations but as long as you know what translations are good then you'll be fine having a couple of their editions
I also don't mind the black with white and orange typeface with artwork aesthetic

>> No.10986091

>>10984568
this might be true of penguin classic editions from 20 years ago but unless if you're a mongoloid who uses books to prop up a wobbly table or uses them to build a fort or play book dominoes or playing chuck the book at the wall see it stick or playing lets colour in all the letter Rs in red or playing fuckity book cunts then your edition isn't going to fall apart you mongoloid poofta wank

>> No.10986095

>>10983795
worth it for kirillow alone, his finale is fantastic

>> No.10986117
File: 181 KB, 677x565, 14676543442.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10986117

I can't fucking find it in my language

>> No.10986127

>>10986117
are you welsh lmao

>> No.10986129

>>10986127
Nah Swedish, just a random picture.

Imagine reading Dostojevskij in welsh ayy lmao.

>> No.10986144

>>10986129
raskolnikov's axe is Margaret thatcher and the old woman is the pit

>> No.10986154

>>10983795
I've read crime and punishment and demons and also notes from underground.

Demons is a much more extensive investigation of psychologie then crime and punishment. After about 200 pages of introductoion to the characters I was completly absorbed by the book. The characters seem really alive and coming so close to the essence of the personalitys dostoyevski encaptured in this work made me shiver more than once or twice.
Similar to c&p you see the souls of these people torn between god and nihilism. Fyodor described the fertile ground on which the demonic communist revolution could flourish and the perpetrators weren't even real communists themselfes but just mentally ill and possessed you could say.

Tl;dr: A much deeper dive than C&P; can't comment on the idiot.

>> No.10986159

>>10984087
You are exactly right. The strange thing is that the real pushers of destructive ideologies are well aware that the ideas behind them are somewhat flawed but they just want to see the world burn by their hands

>> No.10986166

>>10986154
the first 200 pages are a mess though, without the censored chapter the book is kinda unreadable, I wish I read that chapter first when I started

>> No.10986183

>>10983795
Pyotr Verkhovensky felt like those cunts from funny games. Stavrogin and the little girl episode was fucking heavy.

>> No.10986769

>>10986183
I didn't even feel like he fucked up to bad there...

>> No.10987195

>>10986183
In the end what did he do to that little girl? He obviously didn't rape her so is she dead because stavroguine pretended to love her srly?

>> No.10987236

>>10987195
Ah I remember now. She got fucked up even worse by her mother because he didn't intervene. The mother thought the girl stole somethinf from him. He knew that to be false but let the old bitch beat the girl up anyway

>> No.10987245

>>10983795
>ehehe I'm gonna paint my political opponents like a bunch of crazy demonic people surely this will make them go away
Based Dosto, how does he do it?

>> No.10987264

>>10987236
Sure but Stavroguine couldn't feel bad for years for that. And what is the chapter he hid from the monk even saying? We know he didn't do anything sexual to her but still managed to fuck her up so much she's dead and he feel responsible

>> No.10987482

>>10987264
Well I'd say theres several things to this. Talking from a psychological perspective he encountered his shadow. That was definitely not the first time he discovered the unbelievable immoral acts and wants he was capable of. If i remember correct he was rejected by her (she got really scared when he got close to her) and thus enjoyed seeing her get beat up. Maybe she didn't even reject him i dont remember. Anyway experiencing this kind of evil in yourself can make you run from yourself the rest of your life which he somewhat did. So first he encounteres the devil or demon within himself. Second, and this is a theme throughout the book i think, stawrogin is very ambiguous about speaking his truth. And that's what his encounter with the priest was about I suppose. Speaking truthfully, especially about the reprehensible things you've done, is the first step to allow purging your soul. But stawrogin thought about the things he has done and thought and felt to be so malicious and disgusting that merely admitting to them truthfully in relationahip with another human being nearly tore him apart. This is somewhat intrinsic behaviour and thoughtpattern but mostly conditioned by society.

>> No.10987855

>>10987482
Thanks for your explanation, I guess I don't really like stavroguine character, he's a bit too sorry for himself for my taste. Killing yourself because you fear your inner demons and how you can act is a bit cheap especially from dostoievsky

>> No.10987932

>>10987855
Well you really have to consider it from his perspective. He had no chance to understand what happened in his mind. Also the things he allowed to happen or even pushed to be done were beyond terrible. A huge part of a city was burned down not directly because of him but he could have prevented it if he could have brought up the courage to intervene.
But I totally get where you're coming from. Although I wouldn't consider it 'cheap' since my explanation is only a fraction of the psychological depth depicted throughout dostoyevkis work.

>> No.10988007

>>10984738
This

>>10984568
You’re supposed to read a book not have sex with it. It’s just a book, ya know.

>> No.10989192

>>10984108
This is what I wanted to hear, thanks!

>> No.10989211

>>10984105
Shut the fuck up

>> No.10989222

I thought it was the most purely entertaining of his novels. It didn't quite hit the heights of C&P or TBK but damn was it enjoyable.

>> No.10989245

>>10986082
Gilgamesh is one of the few Penguin classics I have. I read it once with gloves, turned the pages with tongs, and only handled it from within a lab suit to preserve it as much as possible despite its inherent fragility.

>> No.10989274

A little darker, deals with similar themes as C&P such as manifestation of guilt and internal struggles, Idk if you've heard about the censored rape scene but that's pretty much what to expect.... haven't read The Idiot yet but Demons is great

>> No.10989303
File: 7 KB, 249x250, cattt.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10989303

>>10989274
There was no rape

>> No.10989318

>>10989303
Then what was Nikolai's guilt from?

>> No.10989343

>>10987482
I'm pretty sure the stealing incident was before the "rape" incident. He misplaced something and she got the blame for it. He found the object himself then took it away form the house and deliberately hid it somewhere nobody would ever find. He also could have prevented her suicide, the night she does it she "confronts" him silently and then later on he hears her go outside and knows exactly what she is about to do.

It's been a couple of weeks since I read the chapter but I think that is the basic rundown of events. She also says he caused her to "kill god".

>> No.10989468

>>10989318
You would know if you read the thread

>> No.10989474

>>10989343
He clearly stated to the monk that he didn't do anything sexual to her

>> No.10989508

>>10989474
I put "rape" because I couldn't think of another word for that specific incident, I don't actually think he did anything sexual

>> No.10989518

>>10987245
He attacked core ideas of his oponents and showed how those ideas could devolve into something awful quickly if nothing was done about it (and that happened).

>> No.10989771

>>10987245
Even Bakunin come to see, correctly, that Nechayev was demonic and later warned other Anarchists about his former accomplise and protege. The mistake of the Bakunins' and Lenins' was not acknowledging they were of the same demonic species as Nechayev. Dost. is the study of this demonic species at the essence of revolutionary Leftism.

>> No.10990438

Alright bros, I just started Demons and it's my first Dosty novel. I'm picking it up after the Master & Margarita so I learned to keep note of character names since I'm not used to Russian naming conventions, and I took some short notes about their little salon circle as described in the first chapter, but those mere 50 pages got me a little worn out. Wish me luck, I guess? Humble bump.

>> No.10990465

>>10983795
C&P > BK = Demons > Notes
Haven’t read The Idiot.

>> No.10990471

>>10983795
Demond was my least favorite of his works desu. Not that it was bad, just kind of eh. It made me laugh at a few parts I guess

>> No.10990499

>>10986091
best comment i've read since coming to this site.

>> No.10990571

>>10986183
Whoa, I didn't know about that, anon. Just read an entire plot synopsis trying to see how I missed that part, apparently it was a censored chapter. Interesting. I wonder why the edition I read didn't include that.

>> No.10990893

>>10990571
You just forgot it why would they censor the chapter with the little girl revelation its the final of the book

>> No.10991117

>>10984108
Alright, I’ve read Underground and C&P.

Apparently my next step is The Idiot or Brothers K.

That said, this books sounds like absolute kino, and much more interesting than my other two options. Will I lose anything if I read Demons first?

>> No.10991627

>>10991117
Nope, I read the Idiot and Brothers K before crime and punishment and Demons. I would put Demons before Brothers K at any rate

>> No.10991708

>>10986091
9/10 plot
10/10 prose

>> No.10991716

>>10989518
>>10989771
did you miss the
>surely this will make them go away
part

>> No.10991834

The Idiot was really frustrating to read because of Nastasya incessantly being an annoying bitch.