/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.10948206]

Can someone explain the current resurgence of religious literature and the rise in the popularity of theistic books?

During the early 2000s, many anti-religion books were published. At around the time The God Delusion came out, the New Atheism movement started gaining traction, and by 2010 it was in full force.

In the last year, however, a rebellion against this movement surfaced and people are turning back to religious scriptures, theology, and philosophical theism.

Is this simply a case of synthesis, or do new books about religion and God contain new evidence?

[Anonymous No.10948237]

>>10948206
White guilt because of Muslim shit. Liberal Americans are obsessed over Islam, especially ever since Trump did the ban. If you think I'm wrong, look at schools allowing Muslim children to pray and (supposedly) forcing non-Arab children to do Muslim prayer. When I was a kid, no one was allowed to pray in school, even as Christian, we had to go to a separate building for that.

[Anonymous No.10948251]

He desecularized millions...

[Anonymous No.10948252]

>>10948206
It's a classic case of confirmation bias and you still being the same retard you were 10 years ago only that you got a new lense from r/The_Donald

[Anonymous No.10948266]

its got nothing to do with "the last year" bro. dumb polemical atheism and religion books dominate the best sellers all the time. there probably are general motions and developments, but i think they're a little more diversified than your making out. its not like 2000s atheism and now this year suddenly religious revival.

[Anonymous No.10948386]

>>10948252
What do you even mean ?

[Anonymous No.10948392]

>>10948237
What about people reading shit like Kierkegaard? College students revolting against atheism, calling it simplistic?

[Anonymous No.10948400]

>>10948252
More projection from people who spend their life on reddit and think the whole world is like it. Get out of the house maybe you'll see these trends.

[Anonymous No.10948743]

>>10948392
Atheism is boring and totally lacking in virtue, anyway. I think I'd rather be Muslim. Except I need my girlfriend to drive me place, my license is suspended.

[Anonymous No.10948750]

>>10948206
>Can someone explain the current resurgence of religious literature and the rise in the popularity of theistic books?
Care to provide some examples lad

[Anonymous No.10948771]

>>10948750
i dunno but i think jordan memerson might have had something to do with it

[Anonymous No.10949034]

>>10948251
KEK

[Anonymous No.10949042]

just part of the right wing pendulum swing and jordan peterson capturing the reddit demographic.

[Anonymous No.10949052]

>>10948237
>forcing non-Arab children to do Muslim prayer

I may live in a sudaca shithole but at least my kids ain't going to be forced feed Iranian dick

[Anonymous No.10949063]

>>10948206
>evidence
Spotted the nu-male!

[Anonymous No.10949070]

>>10948206
>Can someone explain the current resurgence of religious literature and the rise in the popularity of theistic books?

Natural reaction to atheism and moral decadence (or progress, depending on who you ask) rampant within our societies. As our countries transform into spiritual wastelands overtime, more and more young people seek meaning and freedom through religion.

[Anonymous No.10949075]

Atheism is fucking boring and pretty lame tbqh.

[Anonymous No.10949081]

>>10949075
It also deprives many of a meaningful, simple, easy life.

[Anonymous No.10949089]

>>10948206
Maybe people realised there wasn't really anything to new age atheism, it was the same old nonsense. Possibly >>10949070 too, people are starting to see what non-religious societies are actually like.

[Anonymous No.10949103]

Atheism is worthless and atheists are insufferable. Any ground atheists gain only drives more people toward God simply because of how repulsive atheists and atheism are. Anyone with eyes can see that atheism is loaded down with the seed of its own destruction. Atheists can't even raise functional children, the ones they don't murder in the womb. Atheists have nothing to offer anyone but the cautionary tale that is themselves. They'll be nothing more than yet another sad chapter in the history books chronicling the failures and futility of the enemies of God's people.

[Anonymous No.10949109]

>>10949103
Holy shit A+ post

[Anonymous No.10949127]

>>10949089
New age atheism appeals mainly to the young and rebellious. They seek an intelligent authority figure to tell them their parents are wrong, their priests are wrong, society is wrong, and that they can do as they please.

What happens to the new age atheism movement when its original followers, who mainly sought the thrill of rebellion, grow up and move on? What happens to the new age atheism movement when atheism itself no longer becomes an act of rebellion, because atheism itself is the norm?

[Anonymous No.10949128]

>>10949081

too bad none of these people keep their proselytizing to themselves

[Anonymous No.10949141]

>>10948206
what are these popular religious books? Jordan Peterson? Joel Osteen? Not trying to bait I just haven't heard of much. Last I heard atheism was still growing in the US?

[Anonymous No.10949142]

>>10949127
This happened to me, when I was around 15-20. I grew out of it since. There really is no substance to atheism.

[Anonymous No.10949149]

Atheism, like the other metashitter ideologies, attempts to place itself above all other metanarrative ideologies and memes by regarding all below it to be a human creation, and thus wrong as it doesn't line up with some mythical "reality of the universe." Rather than make any attempt to work within the scope of human society and memetics, which make up nearly all of our perceptions and ideas, they reject as lesser. This is why Atheism, like existentialism, is a wholly useless belief, as it robs a man of creative a meaningful metanarrative or archetype through the smugness of "being right."

[Anonymous No.10949153]

There are some bookish contrarian types who see an increase in atheism (which is too easy, since the unwashed masses take it as their own now) alongside a decrease in civilization (economy, culture, social stability, etc) and from this they summarize that atheism causes degeneracy and a smart discerning person such as themselves ought to be religious.

[Anonymous No.10949179]

>>10949127
>What happens to the new age atheism movement when atheism itself no longer becomes an act of rebellion, because atheism itself is the norm?

In that case, I suppose rejecting the spiritual wasteland promised by our atheistic societies is an act of rebellion, one which is actually beneficial to society.

[Anonymous No.10949183]

>>10949103
You're irredemably wrong, seeing as Christianity is a ship taking in water and other religions are fast decreasing. Try again, anon.

[Anonymous No.10949195]

>>10949183

[Anonymous No.10949212]

>>10948206
There is a guy who goes around telephone booths to pick up the change that accumulated over the month. That is his job. He probably has a prefered fastest route he takes, after which he drinks a coffee in his favorite locale. When he comes home his wife, who maybe isn't the most beautiful girl on this earth, waits for him with dinner ready. They eat while exchanging some remarks about the day. If it wasn't for him, the change would stay in one place without moving.

[Anonymous No.10949260]

I haven't noticed it outside of 4chan and Peterson's videos comment section

[Anonymous No.10949272]

>>10949103
Hilarious horseshit. Do you live in Utah or something? It doesn't sound like you've ever met an actual atheist.

[Anonymous No.10949277]

>>10949260
Yeah young people around me seem the same as ever. They aren't even atheists, they just don't care about religion.
>>10949195
Can you pick post the original study? I want to see if there's a breakdown by country

[Anonymous No.10949283]

>>10949260
>>10949277
who would have thought that the internet doesn't reflect real life

[Anonymous No.10949297]

>>10949283
that's what I meant, OP is delusional or baiting

[Anonymous No.10949319]

>>10949127
Lel
Maybe this is true in murrika.
But in many places atheism is normal and not a big deal.

[Anonymous No.10949333]

>>10949183
>christianity is a ship taking on water
Lagos is projected to be the first city in the world to hit 100m population. Kinshasa will not be far behind.

contrary to popular opinion, africa exists

the only major change will be protestantism eclipsing catholicism (unfortunately)

[Anonymous No.10949343]

>>10949333
You mean roman catholicism

[Anonymous No.10949352]

>>10948206
This whole thing is stupid. Atheists argue against a strawman of religious people, and religious people, especially here, make a ridiculous strawman of atheists. They are appropriating "intelligence" "high-culture" "virtue" with religion because modern life isn't neatly wrapped up in a single book that connects every aspect of your life to a larger purpose. You can make similar Aesthetic claims and find the same level of large-scale meaning, but of course no one wants to talk about that. All that the religious people on this board do is claim that religion is now "advanced" "enlightened" "meaningful" and anyone who doesn't see that is lacking the intelligence to do so. It's so mind-numbingly stupid that I can't believe it. They are just being polemical assholes who argue on a shitty board about something that doesn't even matter to anyone but their tiny group of contrarian turds. OP, ignore them, outlast the shitstorm.

[Anonymous No.10949361]

>>10949352
>Atheists argue against a strawman of religious people
and you'd be one of them

[Anonymous No.10949367]

Religious literacy in the West is extremely low due to the stigma placed around anything that is labeled "religion". Harvard liberal arts grads don't know the basics of what Christians believe even if they are fairly well-read. Therefore, most Western atheists are atheists out of ignorance, not a well-educated denial. Ignorant atheism could lead to an interest in religion, seeing as people want to know about the thing they are rejecting in a non-polemical way.

[Anonymous No.10949373]

>>10949352
>argue against a strawman of (...) people

[Anonymous No.10949377]

Do people actually feel nostalgia for Dawkins tier atheism? In some ways I felt bad for atheists and thought they deserved better representation than that. I would be completely embarrassed to be associated with him.

[Anonymous No.10949384]

>>10949352
Also, OP, if you want details, read the Dialectic of Enlightenment. People made this point about the role that myth plays against the enlightenment dating back to Hegel. The reason that religion is phased out is that in modern society it actually just doesn't work. Prayer isn't a thing for modern society because it doesn't actually save anyone. Medicine does, so we fund that. It is not saying that religion is irrational. It is very rational--it just doesn't work to get anything done. It is true that the enlightenment can't provide the same kind of meaning as myth. But it's your choice, then. A worldview without objective meaning but engagement with a process that works, or one that doesn't actually map onto reality, but gives you a wholesome sense of purpose.

[Anonymous No.10949392]

>>10949377
so what form should atheism take?

[Anonymous No.10949393]

>>10949272
I'm from near Vancouver. My family are all atheists. So was I until I converted at 19. I recently cut contact with my militant Communist sister. I've known dozens of atheists in my life. I don't associate with any of them anymore. I learned the hard way that the doctrine of the reprobate mind is true. Even if an atheist seems alright at first, there's always some horrific filthy blasphemy or or totalitarian political fanaticism or sexual perversion or "alternative lifestyle" they're keeping secret. I recently got an email from a university friend who always used to go on about how "oppressive" Christianity is inviting me to his "nonbinary" clothing shop, whatever that is. I looked at his Facebook picture and he was wearing makeup. A grown man literally wearing eyeliner and black lipstick in public with no shame. Another atheist tranny I went to high school with (but never associated with because he was a weirdo) just went to prison for raping a mentally disabled high school kid. Go figure!

[Anonymous No.10949397]

>>10949361
>>10949373

I'm saying both are wrong. The religious people on this board need to chill out on atheists. Why debate? Why should anyone give a fuck about what anyone else believes?

[Anonymous No.10949400]

>>10949392
One that has a basic understanding of philosophy. This is an actual quote from the God Delusion:

>I've forgotten the details, but I once piqued a gathering of theologians and philosophers by adapting the ontological argument to prove that pigs can fly. They felt the need to resort to Modal Logic to prove that I was wrong

[Anonymous No.10949403]

>>10949384
That's quite the false dichotomy you're setting up.

[1686 0001 2025 2015 No.10949406]

>>10949277
There are a source in the image.

[Anonymous No.10949409]

>>10949400
>One that has a basic understanding of philosophy.

Clearly you haven't read very much philosophy lol

[Anonymous No.10949414]

>>10949397
>Why debate? Why should anyone give a fuck about what anyone else believes?
This is exactly the sort of reasoning why people don't like atheists.

[Anonymous No.10949417]

>>10949403
If you knew anything about philosophy and critical theory you would know how long this same debate has been going on. It's very far from false. Thats why this is all dumb. It's the exact same shit people have been arguing about for hundreds of years.

[Anonymous No.10949426]

>>10949414
>This is exactly the sort of reasoning why people don't like atheists

So if atheists argue it's being polemical, but yet when religious people do its moral? How are you even breathing

[Anonymous No.10949432]

>>10949406
>>10949277
I quickly skimmed the study and it says that the percentage of unaffiliated (atheists, agnostics, etc) people are going to increase in the West.

[Anonymous No.10949437]

>>10949417
I know about the debate. All the disenchantment of the world stuff, tecnè, blablablabla, but I still believe it is a false dichotomy.

[Anonymous No.10949450]

>>10949426
>why care what anyone else believes
This is exactly the same sort of thing as
>why care how someone else lives their life
When you remove the source of shared normative claims, eventually all you are left with is individual wants.
Not to mention that many of our countries are victims of universal suffrage.

[Anonymous No.10949454]

>>10949437
I disagree, but I'm glad you're not just arguing out your ass like 90% of the people on this board haha.

[Anonymous No.10949457]

>>10949432
lol moving the goalposts so fucking far from your original post.

>our tiny minority is shrinking even further to insignificance worldwide but at least we're gaining ground in these dying societies being overwhelmed by mass replacement immigration by Muslims and Roman Catholic Mexicans while Christianity flourishes in the last major officially state atheist country

[Anonymous No.10949463]

>>10948206
Identity politics are trending. Christians are even moreso distanced from mainstream society in the west than previously, so they go extra hard.

Islam is mostly growing because they do nothing but make babies as a culture and now most actually survive into adulthood.

[Anonymous No.10949468]

>The strong are saying nothing until they see

[Anonymous No.10949471]

>>10949450
>When you remove the source of shared normative claims, eventually all you are left with is individual wants.


This is a reduction of modern life though. By living in the state you are already consenting to a great deal of normative claims. The space that religion occupies versus the state is substantially smaller. Relatively speaking it doesn't matter what you do on Sunday versus your agreement to obey all of the laws.

[Anonymous No.10949477]

>>10949457
My original post was >>10949277 and the OP is very clearly talking about the West. Why are you so butthurt?

[Anonymous No.10949491]

>>10949477
I posted the image in response to:

>You're irredemably wrong, seeing as Christianity is a ship taking in water and other religions are fast decreasing. Try again, anon.

Populations that adopt atheism are doomed to extinction. Atheism reduces reproductive fitness. It's an evolutionarily maladaptive trait.

[Anonymous No.10949495]

>>10949450
>When you remove the source of shared normative claims, eventually all you are left with is individual wants.
This must be why crime is so rampant in western societies and basically absent in highly religious countries like Mexico.
Oh wait.

[Anonymous No.10949509]

>>10949491
Then why is the birthrate so low in highly religious countries like Italy or Poland.

[1686 0001 2025 2015 No.10949532]

>>10949432
Who care about the west?, Africa's countries and China are growing on population and power. Also they are becoming the largest Christian countries in the world.

[Anonymous No.10949543]

>>10949495
He isn't talking about crimerates but the reduction in social cohesion leading to individual atomization. You can have a country with low crime rates where everyone is an asocial (NOT antisocial) hyperconsumer who either just goes to work and goes home without talking to anyone or who never leaves home at all. It's called Japan.

>>10949509
Because they haven't flooded themselves with autogenocidal mass fertile Muslim replacement immigration because they've lost all sense of community and identity because they apostecized from Christianity.

[Anonymous No.10949549]

>>10949491
Consider China which is overwhelmingly atheistic. Intelligent, robust people, huge population, maybe a bit amoral. Evolutionarily fit.

[Anonymous No.10949557]

>>10949549
Their population is declining, but they'll soon have the largest Christian population in the world.

[Anonymous No.10949562]

>>10949543
>the reduction in social cohesion leading to individual atomization.

How does this happen to atheists? Religion isn't the only normative device that unifies people. It's a misrepresentation of them as humans that are living in countries that have norms, are part of organizations, have friends, etc.

[Anonymous No.10949575]

>>10949549
>it's a Westerner projects Western atheism on East Asia episode

[Anonymous No.10949582]

>>10948206
I recall learning about a sociologist called Thomas Ziehe in a class. He said that people nowadays have the freedom to choose and shape their own life to a much higher degree than before due to things like economic growth, technology and globalization. This does however also lead to a lot of anxiety because you constantly have to consider whether or not what you're doing is the right thing to do. He claimed that there are three main ways of dealing with this:

1. People seek interactions with others in order to project their decisions and emotions onto them. This could be through social media (obsessing over followers), promiscuity, friendships, etc.

2. People try to feel a "rush" in order to forget the dullness of life. This could e.g. be bungee jumping, commiting crimes, doing drugs, etc.

3. People try to find the meaning of life. This could be through joining a religious community, or studying things like philosophy or literature.

I guess the resurgence of religious literature is a clear symptom of number 3.

[Anonymous No.10949586]

>>10949471
I said eventually because a lot of these norms are passed down still, but lessened (and their purpose is no longer clear). I am sure there were atheists a few decades ago opposed to 'gay marriage', for example.

If you actually look at these norms, you can see something very different. Sure there are a few passed down, but how many of those have completely gone? All of these laws against discrimination - a dozen protected attributes or classes - laws against "incitement to hate", etc. The main shared norm in most of these liberal and progressive societies appears to be that individual norms must rule.
Look at the justifications they use: "You can't tell me how to live my life!", "If you criticise it... it's because you're secretly in favour of it", etc.
Even progressive policies like anti-discrimination, are supposedly there to break down norms (because nature is biased, and thus you have to use force to destroy
many of these norms).
It is easy to see how killing a person "infringes" their individual norms, and thus a modern state can oppose it.

[Anonymous No.10949595]

>>10948206
Just a reactionary tidal wave. Yesterday's generation growing up and negotiating their newfound conservatism. The 'new atheist' movement being misinterpreted as 'scientism' and people reacting to that. Nefarious groups taking advantage of young people's disillusionment with PC culture and the new left's constant double-standard attack on Christianity (while protecting minority religions) and hijacking the reactionary movement by turning it into a Putinist orthodoxy (see right wing populist movements in France, Holland, Germany, even the US looking with awe towards Putin's Russia and les ''''conservative'''' ideals).

It's just yesterday's fedora atheists trading it in for the conservative Christian-mystic fedora. The troubling thing is that the right-wing movement of the classical liberal kind is being corrupted in favour of populist trumpism/putinism. The left's corruption by Trotskyist useful idiots has been ongoing since the 60s. The right is next unfortunately. Hopefully better people will seize the vacuum and build a strong center, but I don't see any political actors of this kind on the horizon.

[Anonymous No.10949601]

>>10949562
Yeah, Christians don't understand that we're perfectly capable of forming positive communities all on our own. I mean, I'm swinging by my menstrual blood finger painting group right after I'm done studying for my Kill All White People 203 midterm with my besties. I found this horrible video of Trump that I just know is going to make Rand - Sorry!... Becky...cry. Xer revolutionary consciousness is so high right now. I can't wait until the revolution comes and we can put all heterosexuals, males, thinprivileged, cisgenders, able-bodied Christians, conservatives, etc. up against the wall and at last build a society that everyone can live in.

[Anonymous No.10949608]

>>10949586
>. The main shared norm in most of these liberal and progressive societies appears to be that individual norms must rule.

I don't think this is as contentious as you want to make it. A large irony lies at the line of republican and religious interaction, where maximizing personal freedom and reducing government infringement on individual liberty actually requires the foregoing of freedom within a religious group to do it. I think everyone wants individual freedom, and with that, the choice to subscribe to larger ideologies. It's not an all or nothing game. There will always be a mixture of norms supporting group identity, and norms aimed to liberate undue identity-projecting. The world isn't so bad as either camp makes it out to be.

[Anonymous No.10949618]

>>10949601

You must have bought out every farm in America to make a straw man that big. Jesus fuck. I'm either religious or I'm all of that? I can't understand how you honestly believe that is what people with views that differ from your own are like. You just want me to be that way so you can be mad at it. It's harder to accept that we are more similar than different. I remember when I was like 16 lol

[Anonymous No.10949619]

>>10949393
Ah, you're a lying troll. Got it.

[Anonymous No.10949634]

>>10949608
I don't think anyone truly wants "individual freedom" in the sense liberals (classical or otherwise) mean it. Most all human life makes expectations of the other humans we live with that go well beyond "don't interfere" - in fact sometimes we'd quite like others to interfere. Then again, perhaps freedom of association would alleviate this.

[Anonymous No.10949639]

>>10949634
Of course not, but it isn't just religion that provides that interaction and meaning. We should be free to choose if we want to belong somewhere or not, and to where we want to belong if we do.

[Anonymous No.10949641]

>>10949608
Yea but there is not stopping it. Thru the generations, religion has strict dogma and can't be pushed around, that much.
Sure you think you have the morals and can pass them down the line. But just look at some of the transgender bullshit gooing araund, even doctors can't stop them.

[Anonymous No.10949651]

>>10948206
Maybe it is because Atheists tend to be such tools in general?

[Anonymous No.10949654]

>>10949562
The "rationalism" most atheists subscribe to, and leads many people to atheism in the first place, is necessarily destructive of other shared normative claims. ("other" might be contentious). At the end of the day, most or all basic normative claims (those that aren't the product of other normative claims) are irrational, by their standards.

[Anonymous No.10949660]

>>10949641

My moral stance on that is that they should do whatever the fuck they want because its America. Rigid morality is good in the sense that it provides stability and consistency. But denying that times and people change only leads to people being alienated and if for long enough, revolting. There has to be a balance.

[Anonymous No.10949665]

>>10949601
Kek at the levels of butthurt

[Anonymous No.10949672]

>>10949654
I just think this is wrong. There is no necessary link between normative destruction and normative rationalism.

It's also not true that most normative claims are seen as irrational. Look at the USA. Separation of church and state, and most atheists like most people endorse the state part of that. All of those norms are generally agreed on by everyone.

[Anonymous No.10949676]

>>10949618
What's your political affiliation? Do you support abortion? Do you support gay marriage? Who do you vote for?

>>10949619
I'm not lying. My mother was a lapsed catholic. Left the church when they wouldn't give her a divorce. Became a militant feminist. My father was raised by a Communist, part of where my sister gets it from, but mostly from uni. My brother is an atheist. My sister is an atheist. My mother raised us to hate Christians. The tranny I went to school with was a huge activist figure in the local LGBTWTF scene. Just looked him up online and turns out he didn't actually rape the 13 year old just sexually harassed him through his phone and tried to lure him. Year in prison. Guy I knew in university was apparently in a BDSM relationship with a smoking hot classmate and she sissified him and he decided to take it public. I've known others. One atheist I went to high school with is a drug dealer. He's been to jail a few times. I stopped hanging out with him soon as I heard about the drugs. It's sad because we were pretty close in grade 11 and 12 but drifted away a bit after school. He used to give me shit about going to church when I converted. Yeah Canada isn't the most Christian nation. If you think it's impossible that I've known atheists who are all weirdos you're blinded by arrogance, which is probably why you're an atheist in the first place.

[Anonymous No.10949693]

>>10949660
>atheist
>supports transsexualism

Noted.

[Anonymous No.10949702]

>>10949543
>He isn't talking about crimerates but the reduction in social cohesion leading to individual atomization
Nope. He clearly talked about "individual wants". If crime isn't an expression of people acting immoral and following their individual wants I don't know what is.
Social cohesion and crime are strongly correlated by the way.
>Because they haven't flooded themselves with autogenocidal mass fertile Muslim replacement immigration because they've lost all sense of community and identity because they apostecized from Christianity.
Welp this is beyond retarded. First off, Italy does indeed have a lot of Muslim and african migrants. Second, family and community ties are extremely strong there. Their suicide rate and depression rate is one of the lowest in the West (if not the lowest) despite the huge unemployment. Third, both countries are overwhelmingly religious, Poland more so than Italy. Despite all of this, birthrates are still low as fuck.

[Anonymous No.10949705]

>>10949693
You don't support the liberty to do what you want?

[Anonymous No.10949707]

test

[Anonymous No.10949715]

>>10949672
Where did their norms come from? The state never came up with its own norms.
Throughout the history of the US, it has been predominantly Christian. That it wasn't formally tied to the operation of the state is quite meaningless.

You can say that people don't _see_ them as irrational, but these norms that have survived to today might yet fall, one by one, to the cold hand of pure rational thought. I think this is exactly what has been happening for decades, with people who took them for a given. Once rationalism had been crowned king, they had no defence.

[Anonymous No.10949716]

All covenants are dead.
And we feel it.

[Anonymous No.10949718]

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

[Anonymous No.10949736]

>>10949702
*Inversely correlated

[Anonymous No.10949739]

>>10949715
>to the cold hand of pure rational thought

You're joking....right?

It's not distinctly Christian at all. Name one society that permitted murder or theft? Christianity borrowed it's morality from many pagan religions present in Rome at the time of it's uprising. It's a histrionic view of Christianity and the state.

[Anonymous No.10949744]

>>10949739
>it's not distintly Christian
I didn't say it was!

[Anonymous No.10949758]

>>10949702
>Nope.
Yep.
>He clearly talked about "individual wants". If crime isn't an expression of people acting immoral and following their individual wants I don't know what is.
Social cohesion and crime are strongly correlated by the way.

If what you want is legal then pursuing that want won't cause you to break a law. Not everything legal is good for society. For example, imagine if pornography or sodomy were made legal.

>First off, Italy does indeed have a lot of Muslim and african migrants.
Mostly just passing through to godless Germany, France, and England to destroy those societies.

>Second, family and community ties are extremely strong there. Their suicide rate and depression rate is one of the lowest in the West (if not the lowest)
Really selling me on atheism here Chief.

>despite the huge unemployment.
You need a job to afford children.

>Third, both countries are overwhelmingly religious, Poland more so than Italy. Despite all of this, birthrates are still low as fuck.
Not as low as the native populations of apostate countries. And more importantly, they aren't undergoing demographic replacement. Poland will still be Poland in 100 years. There will be no Sweden.

[Anonymous No.10949763]

>>10949705
I don't support little boys being brainwashed by pedophile Communists to cut their dicks off, no.

[Anonymous No.10949772]

>>10949758
>England
In many ways we are victims of secularism and republicanism despite formally being neither secular nor republican.

[Anonymous No.10949781]

>>10949763

I feel bad for you if you actually think that's what it is. It must be hard to live with 10 functioning neurons

[Anonymous No.10949790]

>>10948206
>new evidence for god
*tip my fedora"

[Anonymous No.10949793]

>>10948206
14 year olds are 22 now. that's what happened

[Anonymous No.10949794]

>>10949781
About as hard as it is to live with two functioning testacles, you reprobate freak. If I met you, and I knew the darkness in your heart, what you support being done to children, I wouldn't even shake hands with you. I don't think I'd even be able to look you in the eye without vomiting in disgust. The next time you go to say some bullshit line like, "You don't need to believe in God to be a good person," please hesitate for just a moment, and think back on what I've said to you here today. You aren't a good person.

[Anonymous No.10949812]

>>10948206
I think nihilism, irony and atheism have outstayed their welcome as they offer nothing substantial to replace what they criticize and destroy.

[Anonymous No.10949817]

>>10949195
lmao, this chart just means practicing jews. secular jews dominate the earth.

[Anonymous No.10949822]

>>10949212
Who the uses telephone booths anymore? All the ones in my town are defunct.

[Anonymous No.10949836]

>>10949817
secular jews are practicing jews

[Anonymous No.10949843]

>>10949836

[Anonymous No.10949850]

>>10949758
>If what you want is legal then pursuing that want won't cause you to break a law. Not everything legal is good for society. For example, imagine if pornography or sodomy were made legal.
Murder is legal in the West? Corruption is legal in the West? Are you seriously implying that the higher crime rate is due to differences in legislation? These are some incredible levels of mental gymnastics here.
>Mostly just passing through to godless Germany, France, and England to destroy those societies.
Once again clutching at straws and not looking at facts. Italy has a good portion of stable immigrants. The percentage isn't as higher as France, UK or Germany but they're still there.
>Really selling me on atheism here Chief.
The suicide rate is highest in the overwhelmingly religious Sardinia, while in the less North is lower. Not that I'm trying to sell you anything.
>You need a job to afford children.
Birthrates don't vary significantly amongst classes.
>Not as low as the native populations of apostate countries.
1.34 for native Italians, 1.46 for poles

[Anonymous No.10949851]

>>10949595
Pretty much this. A continuous cycling of fedoeas with various groups taking advantage of this and those with no manipulative political motivations losing ground.

[Anonymous No.10949858]

>>10949843
someone had to say it

[Anonymous No.10949859]

>>10949850
*isn't as high
*in the less religious North

[Anonymous No.10949910]

>>10949836
Oh right, I forgot the elitist Jews are going to enslave the gentiles once the Muslims outbreed us.

[Anonymous No.10949913]

>>10949850
Reducing all social atomization to crime rates is not valid. Immigrants in Italy aren't destroying the country long term. Poland has no immigrants. Italy will stay Italian. Poland will stay Polish. They'll remain cohesive societies, united by religion. Meanwhile, the apostate nations will vanish in the wind, as is the fate alloted to them by providence as due recompense.

[Anonymous No.10949968]

>>10949850
>Corruption is legal in the West?
It's called democracy

[Anonymous No.10949979]

>>10949913
>Reducing all social atomization to crime rates is not valid.
Irrelevant to what we were discussing and what the other guy (you?) originally said.
>Immigrants in Italy aren't destroying the country long term.
>Italy will stay Italian.
>They'll remain cohesive societies, united by religion.
See picture related. Plus there are circa 300.000 Italians leaving the country every year.
I don't even know what will happen to Poland, considering a lot of them are migrating to Germany to work as well. Imagine of the EU stops giving them gibs.
>Meanwhile, the apostate nations will vanish in the wind, as is the fate alloted to them by providence as due recompense
*unsheathes katana*

[Anonymous No.10949996]

>>10949979
>*unsheathes katana*
Atheists have never refuted this argument

[Anonymous No.10950007]

Atheism, when you follow it to its logical conclusion, is pretty depressing stuff (or at least it was to me). Under atheism nothing has any objective meaning or value, we simply occupy space-time for a fraction of a fraction, and then blink out of existence again. All of our wants, desires, and most intense experiences essentially boil down to nothing more than a dumb bag of meat trying to pass on its genes. Even if we do manage to find value in our life, nothing we do has any ultimate purpose because humanity will eventually die out too.

I'm not saying that proves or disproves the existence of God, only that an existential crisis is an almost inevitable consequence of atheism for intelligent people (particularly when their loved ones die), and that's very challenging. I've been an atheist for most of my life and had essentially viewed religion as nothing more than superstition even though I was raised Catholic, but I've also been depressed for long periods in my life. Recently I started to actually engage with serious theology, and was delighted to come across arguments for the existence of God that are really compelling. I'd still class myself as an agnostic, but re-accepting the 'mystery' of life and existence, and rejecting a blind acceptance of atheism, has made me much happier. I look forward to trying far more religious literature in the next few years.

[Anonymous No.10950024]

>>10950007
Neetchan was talking about people like this guy two centuries ago

[Anonymous No.10950114]

>>10950024
So were the likes of Dostoevsky, Kierkegaard and Jung desu, and plenty others I'm sure. I had been aware of religious existentialism while I was depressed, but at that point I pretty much completely accepted a Dawkins-tier 'muh flying spaghetti monster' view of religion, so I found it pretty stupid to 'believe' in something you don't really believe in just because it makes you feel better. It wasn't until I actually started reading theology, and understanding that there are genuinely good arguments for the existence of God, that I was able to buy into religious existentialism. I wish Christians made a bigger deal about apologetics desu, because pretty much all of my 'Catholic' friends were only culturally religious, and were just as atheist as everyone else is, because they thought the idea of a big bearded man in the sky was ridiculous. If we learned some apologetics at school, and had a more developed idea of God, then I think it would be better for everyone.

[Anonymous No.10950135]

>>10949996
Katanas are cool, handsome men can wear any kind of hat. if you have high upper body muscularity and low BF% dusters/trenchcoats are sexually appealing, Richard Dawkins isn’t as dumb as you’d think and having a book which gives basic rebuttals to arguments which you were not allowed to learn for centuries because of communal indoctrination is a service to the species. you needn’t be an atheist to admit all of this.

[Anonymous No.10950145]

>>10948771
It was before him. If anything he was a follower of the theistic resurgence.

[Anonymous No.10950154]

>>10950135
>Katanas are cool
Not really.
>Handsome men can wear any kind of hat
Not true.
>if you have high upper body muscu...
Dawkinites.
>Not allowed to learn for centuries
Maybe it was better that way.

[Jeff Mangum Died For Your Sins !rAl8Mz2mp2 No.10950171]

>>10948206
Religious belief is so ubiquitous that it makes me think that it's psychologically necessary. I see "atheists" believe crazy religious shit all the time. Either some ideological belief that functions like a religion, or some hippy Whole Foods need for food purity, or "muh white ancestors" tribal mysticism. People who don't think religiously are extremely rare. Some are just realizing that their own religious tradition probably isn't that much worse than contemporary religious trends.

[Anonymous No.10950194]

>>10950154
>Maybe it was better that way.

It most certainly was.

[Anonymous No.10950197]

>>10950194
>not supporting The One Truth(TM) even if it destroys all society

[Anonymous No.10950203]

>>10949103

[Anonymous No.10950223]

>>10949212
>If it wasn't for him, the change would stay in one place without moving.
Uh, no, they would just hire someone else to collect it.

[Anonymous No.10950227]

>>10949619
Dude, you're retarded. There is no way to prove it fake. Just take his word for it, disagree, and move on. But you won't because you don't believe in God, pussy.

[Anonymous No.10950234]

>>10950197
Fatti non foste per viver come bruti, ma per seguir virtute e conoscenza.

[Anonymous No.10950235]

Secular liberalism is a nihilistic ideological vacuum.

Nature abhors a vacuum.

[Anonymous No.10950347]

>>10950007
It seems depressing because it's opposed to what we're raised to believe is good.
>Under atheism nothing has any objective meaning or value, we simply occupy space-time for a fraction of a fraction, and then blink out of existence again. All of our wants, desires, and most intense experiences essentially boil down to nothing more than a dumb bag of meat trying to pass on its genes. Even if we do manage to find value in our life, nothing we do has any ultimate purpose because humanity will eventually die out too.
Nothing about what you're describing is inherently depressing, it's just the way you're saying it. I'm reminded of Hitchens's line about heaven being a "celestial North Korea." You're putting the same kind of spin on an atheistic worldview that he put on heaven, but to you it seems natural because you've often heard that spin before. You're not wrong that atheism depresses many people, but I think it's because they're still influenced by their religious indoctrination.

[Anonymous No.10950351]

>>10949149
200 words and you said literally nothing. This paragraph should be next to the definition of sophistry, you prick.

[Anonymous No.10950365]

>>10948206
>Is this simply a case of synthesis, or do new books about religion and God contain new evidence
>evidence
What atheists seem to be simply unable to grasp is that religion and faith have nothing at all to do with 'evidence'

[Anonymous No.10950371]

>>10950365
Just believe bro

[Anonymous No.10950388]

>>10950171
It's not like people have some set amount of religious thinking they have to do and so they may as well choose some religion as a focus. Religious thinking is a kind of irrationality. Everybody does it to some extent, but that doesn't mean it should be encouraged.

[Anonymous No.10950405]

>>10950154
katanas are sleek, elegant killing instruments for gentlemen warriors to settle disputes with. No one who has studied military history thinks they were used in open warfare

Handsome men can wear anything and make it look good, the Fedora on a sleepy beach chad looks quite nice

Not all atheists are Dawkinites and Dawkins has affected more people than you think anon, the world is a big place

Things weren’t better when the upper classes were restrained by christfaggotry, the world has had two peaks: the late 19th century Nietzschean nihilist period with unbridled sociopathic gilded age capitalism

the Bronze Age for reasons you wouldn’t understand

[Anonymous No.10950421]

>>10950405
wow.
You are retarded except for the bronze age thing.

[Anonymous No.10950494]

>>10950405
>the late 19th century
Not because of Nietzhit

[Anonymous No.10950511]

>>10948206
There really isn’t outside of the internet. People mostly don’t care about religion.

[Anonymous No.10950571]

>>10948392
For one, Kierkegaard's writings are more beautiful than literally anything one can find in the 20th century literature, excluding maybe nips.

[Anonymous No.10950578]

Can you guys help me out here.

I understand that maybe blind, gnostic atheism isn't the answer... but is turning to religions - according to which if I eat pork or masturbate or whatever I will burn in hell for eternity - the solution?

Can we not ignore the New Atheism fedora guys and just accept deism or agnosticism (atheism, in practice) as the sane option?

Religions are absurd, the only sensible beliefs are to believe in a personal God, a creator, or just shrug your shoulders and get on with life.

[Anonymous No.10950580]

>>10950571
Know of a good translation that is widely available? I can only find the penguin one.

[Anonymous No.10950588]

>>10948206

[Anonymous No.10950602]

>>10950580
Dunno, I've only read Russian translation, which may or man not be worse than common English ones.

[Anonymous No.10950613]

>>10950578
>lol dude i'm just against ORGANISED RELIGION
Even when I was an atheist I would have hated you for your agnosticism.

[Anonymous No.10950624]

>>10950613
Why so much hate? Why is every opinion of yours based on stereotypes? I simply have no heard a compelling argument for religion (or God) so I remain unsure. Somehow you hate me for this. Very upsetting.

[Anonymous No.10950634]

>>10950624
Agnosticism is just a lack of personal philosophy which indicates a non-person, a walking husk that merely imitates a human being.

[Anonymous No.10950641]

>>10950624
As an atheist, I saw all agnostics as cowards. They wanted the ease of not making a claim, the ease of being "moderates" and yet are fundamentally hypocritical.

If you claim to be a rationalist, then you should not believe in a god. A god is impossible to a rationalist. Else you believe that nothing is truly impossible.

[Anonymous No.10950643]

>>10950613
the communal part is the worst part, makes it all the less believable

[Anonymous No.10950649]

>>10950634
To me indicates a lack of arrogance, the kind of arrogance that can be found in any dogmatic teenager who thinks they've figured out the world and their political, religious, and social views are the only ones that aren't retarded.

I no longer seek your approval because you have not proven to be one worthy or respect.

[Anonymous No.10950668]

>>10950649
This is an incredibly arrogant post that involves you saying anyone who doesn't hold your view (agnosticism) is retarded

[Anonymous No.10950684]

>>10950641
How is it hypocritical?

I read religious texts, they don't convince me, so I conclude "I don't believe in God". I'm not claiming "God doesn't exist" - I can only argue that so far, the arguments for God are poor, so I default to the weaker, agnostic form of atheism. Since atheism has strong connotations, I call myself an agnostic.

>>10950668
Incorrect on two counts. My view is simply to not be certain of anything because certainty doesn't exist - this doesn't mean I'm a postmodernist, I still have opinions, I just don't act like an arrogant twat about them.

[Anonymous No.10950693]

>>10950634
>>10950641

>hey guys i'm not convinced on this whole christianity thing but i don't wanna say god definitely doesnt exist
>YOU FUCKING SPINELESS PUSSY PICK A SIDE

[Anonymous No.10950728]

>>10948392
People have always read Kierkegaard. I've not noticed any particular "resurgence" this year or even recently.

>>10950580
The Hongs' on Princeton University Press is the standard, they've translated his entire bibliography.

[Anonymous No.10950732]

>>10950728
>The Hongs' on Princeton University Press
Not available in the UK unless you pay £20 directly from the publisher. I'm not paying that much for a book that's about 100 pages long.

[Anonymous No.10950751]

>>10950684
>certainty doesn't exist
This is the dumbest thing I've ever fucking heard.
And you aren't even the first one I've heard it from.

[Anonymous No.10950752]

>>10950693
It's not about picking a side. If you have any brain at all, the existence of God (or lack thereof) is a crucial part of both your personality and your worldview. It's not some minor thing that can be ignored as "something I don't know" if you approach this question with any fucking fraction of the seriousness it deserves. And the lack of this seriousness indicates that you haven't even begun to consider the question of God at any intellectual or emotional level. So you exist at the level barely above that of animals.

[Anonymous No.10950777]

>>10950751
Yes Hume said the same thing 300 years ago suck a dick.

[Anonymous No.10950792]

>>10950777
You're very certain that certainty doesn't exist

[Anonymous No.10950798]

>>10950752
Ridiculous. Yes out of all the fucking idiots in this world I am the animal because I don't go spouting dogmatic views on the existence of God.

You're actually not saying anything, but just repeated the idea that somehow if you think about the problem long enough you should arrive at a conclusion. What a load of bullshit.

[Anonymous No.10950808]

>>10950798
>im just against dogma
that is your dogma

[Anonymous No.10950810]

>>10950792
Certainty exists in mathematics, and things like mathematics (constructions based on a priori axioms). Anything else cannot be proved and is therefore uncertain.

[Anonymous No.10950828]

>>10950808
If from your perspective you experienced a revelation and felt God talk to you and show you he exists, that's fair enough, but we don't share consciousness so don't expect me to believe anything you believe without being able to prove it to me.

[Anonymous No.10950846]

>>10950810
"Certainty doesn't exist" is not a tautology

[Anonymous No.10950855]

>>10950798
>if you think about the problem long enough you should arrive at a conclusion
Not really. It is possible for a person not to reach a conclusion, but such a person would be deeply troubled by this very question of the existence of God. And that person would never allow himself enough frivolity to call himself an "agnostic", as if the lack of an answer to the question of God was some sort of a position one can occupy, and not a split that goes right through one's soul, bringing pain and turmoil.

Fuck, it seems I've read too much Kierkegaard recently. The point still holds, though.

[Anonymous No.10950868]

>>10950828
Try reading some of the thread, there are arguments about atheism in it.

[Anonymous No.10950876]

>>10950227
I'm not trying to "prove" anything. I don't believe his colourful story, not a fucking farfetched word of it, so there's no point talking to him any further.

[Anonymous No.10950951]

>>10950855
Kierkegaard leads to a dead end anon. Why don't you listen?

[Anonymous No.10950955]

>>10950855
Very funny ending. I don't think there's a problem with being troubled by such a difficult question.

[Anonymous No.10950969]

>>10948206
I think is not only a reaction against atheism, but to nihilsm. There is no new evidence in religious books, but they contain philosophy that preaches endurance, consecuence, significance and meaning.

[Anonymous No.10951108]

Activist theists and atheists are both fucking insufferable, and they both desperately want to convince you that not comitting to their political program makes you a weak-willed idiot, unattractive, the worst thing to happen to western civilization etc. etc. It's basic polemics, and with enough peer pressure it works quite well - nobody wants to get painted as an indecisive pussy. Both New Atheists and the reactionary Christians write political tracts to make you care about this Great Civilizational Issue - I remember that Feser's book literally opens with an indictment of homosexual marriage - obviously these evil homosexuals need to be stopped, so we should really care about adopting my traditional metaphysics, right? And atheists like Hitchens were alarmists about Islam to get you to care about promoting their program. It's political all the way down, with a thin veneer of argument so that it appears like a real philosophical debate.

I find that as you engage with a wider tradition of western philosophy, all this begins to look very tiring - there is really no urgent reason to abandon an agnostic position on the properties of a supreme Being. Plenty of intelligent people didn't commit to extreme polar positions, but negotiated their worldview as best they could in their circumstances. I personally believe that ontologically the concept of a God makes sense, and it's not fundamentally different IMO than presupposing that moral states exist and apply to actions - both are extra-empirical frameworks that help us interpret the world, and are largely shaped by tradition and history instead of some kind of cold scientific investigation, but those are important processes and not easily set aside. Really I'd just recommend reading more metaphysics and understanding it contextually within the western tradition, instead of wasting your time with the alarmist narratives of civilisational decline because our approach to religion isn't correct.

[Anonymous No.10951422]

>>10951108
>desperately want to convince you that not comitting to their political program makes you a weak-willed idiot
This thread basically. Both sides trying to convince you to take a side.

[Anonymous No.10951442]

>>10951108
Hear, hear.

[Anonymous No.10951468]

A generation of privileged young people grew up under a majority conservative government which made social progressive causes such as abortion, LGBT rights, and drug decriminalization the "rebel issues" of the day. Youth culture resonated with these issues and pushed a largely a-political, atheistic platform based on "let people do what they want". To a degree this was an extension of the narcissistic, free-market cultural void of the nineties.

Then with the recession, the election of socially progressive/socially democratic administrations and the saturation of internet culture, being "progressive" became a mainstream stance and the "conservative old person" bogeyman of the early 2000s largely disappeared. Counter-culture parody shows like The Colbert Report became mainstream news outlets. Liberal progressivism became the standard in American popular culture and was exported to every corner of the world.

The mainstream status of progressive social attitudes allowed academics to push the envelope farther than ever before in regards to left-wing politics, radical feminism, queer theory, institutionalized racism, and body politics. They pushed it so far than the self-styled "rebels" of the previous decade started to feel alienated themselves, and reacted with political and cultural backlash.

Now we are passing through a moment where the cultural nihilism and no-questions-asked liberalism of the 2000s seems childish and short-sighted, many people are looking once again for reasons to live, and many are finding them in philosophy, religion, or fringe political movements.

In summary: "edgy" became a bad thing, and cat memes were replaced by dogs.

[Anonymous No.10951477]

>>10948251
To damn billions

[Anonymous No.10951548]

>>10951108
really troubling as a Christian to see other Christians typecasting and straw-manning atheists and agnostics alike, especially when they acknowledge that they themselves were formerly non-religious.

[Anonymous No.10951786]

>>10951548
Not him, but they're fedora Christians mate. There is a difference. Very testing on my patience too though. If we're not going to exercise more patience on those who claim to be attracted by Christianity than lapsed atheists/agnostics do on current atheists/agnostics, all is doomed. Stay patient famalam.

[Anonymous No.10951799]

There will soon come a great delusion, beware those who will soon say "you are a god" or you have "powers of a god"