/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.10914931]

>And the prize for “The Best Poetry Of All Time” goes to...

[Anonymous No.10914950]

>>10914931
For me? Among English speakers Blake, Coleridge or Yeats

[Anonymous No.10914966]

I'll bet the award goes to a jive speaking negro who shares progressive values.

[Anonymous No.10915029]

>>10914931
Mothafukin Pushkin

[Anonymous No.10915031]

>>10914931
RUPI KAUR

[Anonymous No.10915085]

>>10914931
In the English language? Shakespeare. Wordsworth and Milton compete

[Anonymous No.10915143]

>>10914931
Friedrich Schiller

[Anonymous No.10915145]

>>10914931
Keats.

[Anonymous No.10915150]

>>10914966
>jive
>negro
It's the current year?

[Anonymous No.10915166]

Berthold Brecht

[Anonymous No.10915167]

>>10914931
D O N T E
O
N
T
E

[Anonymous No.10915170]

>>10915085
Donald J Trump

[Anonymous No.10915181]

ariosto

[Anonymous No.10915351]

Ibsen

[Anonymous No.10915365]

>>10915145
I second this

[Anonymous No.10915397]

>>10915170
wtf I praise him now

[Anonymous No.10915445]

>>10915145
Entered the thread to say this

[Anonymous No.10915519]

William Shakespeare!

Male Commentator (Tom): No surprises here, Sue. He was one of the favorites for the prize, and the most talked about name in the critics circles.

Female Commentator (Sue): That is right, Tom, but I was still expecting that Dante or Homer might win the award. Look, he is embracing his wife, Anne, and his two daughters. Remembering that he lost a son some years ago, Hamnet, the event that, many speculate, was one of the inspirations for his most famous play.

Male Commentator (Tom): Well remembered, Sue. Look, there is his longtime friend and admirer, mister Harold Bloom, also congratulating him for the victory.

Female Commentator (Sue): And look how emotional mister Bloom is, he simply cannot hold back his tears.

Male Commentator (Tom): We have a reporter there that might get some words from mister Bloom. In the meantime, Mister Shakespeare is going to the stage to receive the ward.

Female Commentator (Sue): Nobody is certainly more at home in a stage than he is, Tom.

Male Commentator (Tom): Well said, Sue. But we have our reporter, Chuck, with mister Bloom in the microphone.

Reporter (Chuck): Mister Bloom, we can see that you are very emotional in this happy night. So, it’s the result of the award a fair one?

Harold Bloom: Human, he invented the human, my boy, the human! We are only here talking like we are talking and thinking the way we think because this man put pen to paper. This is a great day for the canon, and the canon should be save at all cost. My only regret is that Sir John Falstaff could not gain real life – only in the sense of the organic life, that is, for he is more alive than any of us, than any of us, my son! – and join us this evening. It’s like a verse I read, 70 years ago, in the volume of poems by Hart Crane that my sisters gave me as a present, a verse that says…

Reporter (Chuck): Sure thing, mister Bloom. So, no doubt that this is a fair victory?

Harold Bloom: Fair? There is no use for that word in the present situation, my son. Would it be fair for us to give God an award for creating the Earth? It’s not fair, it’s logic and inexorable that the most vastly daimonic conscience and far-reaching agnostic soul in universal literature should win the award. I remember my days as a student, when I first discover his work, and how I felt…my first time reading Julius Caesar…

Male Commentator (Tom): But look, now is time for us to hear the man itself. He received the award from the host’s hand, and he will make his victory speech.

Female Commentator (Sue): He is all smiles, Tom.

Male Commentator (Tom): Or maybe how he himself could have said, he is “on delights head delight’s accumulating”. But let’s hear him.

William Shakespeare:

(I let Shakespeare’s speech for better pens than my own to write)

[Anonymous No.10915529]

>>10914966
>progressive values.

What's the problem with that? The world isn't perfect, why one should like thing to saty as they are? If we were all to think like that we would still be living in caves and adoring the gods of thunder and lightning.

[Anonymous No.10915535]

>>10914931

[Anonymous No.10915538]

>>10915529
>thing to saty

things to stay

[Anonymous No.10915546]

>>10915529
>If we were all to think like that we would still be living in caves and adoring the gods of thunder and lightning
Progressive values aren't synonymous with material progress. People need to stop equating the two

[Anonymous No.10915583]

>>10915529
I despise "progressive values" because I focus on the results of a given social policy rather than the intentions of the people instituting them. That is what separates me from the left. The institute a minimum wage because on the surface that seems like a good way to help the poor. I'm against a minimum wage because in reality the poor are the most hurt by it.

One of the biggest slanders against conservatives or any non progressive people is that they're against change. This is nonsense because nobody is against a generic and unstated change. They're against certain kinds of change and certain kinds of "progress" so framing progressivism as the only way to change or the only way to progress is extremely dishonest.

[Anonymous No.10915586]

>>10915546

But I mean, we still have problems like racism and social inequality. We still have – and that is just one example – vast companies and factories exploring third-world semi-slave labor (Nike, for example, or Apple).

It’s one thing to give literature prizes for black authors (again, just an example) not based in their talent, but as an affirmative-action, a consolation-prize. It’s quite another thing to deny that there is police-violence against black people who did nothing to deserve it.

Let us imagine ourselves in 1964, the time of the Civil Rights act. For us that fight might not mean much in terms of material evolution, of progress in science and technology, but it certainly meant a lot for people living in the margins of society.

I think we should always strive to reach the perhaps unreachable ideal of a world where everybody have the same chances, at least the access to good-quality education and healthcare.

[Anonymous No.10915588]

>>10915546
>material progress

[Anonymous No.10915609]

Mx. Crossdressing Black Latino Trans Midget Pansexual Gay Half-White Man Queer Bugchasing Dragonkin Telephone Salesmyn

[Anonymous No.10915623]

>>10915583

It’s obvious conservative people are not against change, and it’s also obvious that there are different kinds of conservatives, and there are different kinds of leftists.

But one cannot deny that there are many great companies who found and support right-wing parties, and whose interests are, above all, to keep profits rising.

When the State had to intervene with labor laws in England (picture the factories that were corroding people alive, even children, in XIXth century), the business people of the period were all against it, and that only because they fear they would suffer decrease in profit. Also, the people who defend the industries of the time were generally all conservatives, who were against the intervention of the State in the freedom of employers and employees to make contracts.

I also find extremely dishonest that many conservatives claim that they are defending the family, and freedom, and the religion, and god, when deep down it’s all a matter of defending the profit of those people who paid for the campaigns and are paying for law-making of the legislative.

[Anonymous No.10915631]

>>10915586
Yeah you're a cookie cutter progressive. You take disproportionate results and take this as evidence for injustice but there's not justification for making them leap. Black people being arrested more often does not necessarily mean cops are racist because it could be explained by the cultural values and individual choices of black people. They're more likely to commit crime and put themselves in a position to be arrested by police and this would begin to explain their higher arrest rate. You don't go that route though, you just make the assumption that black people are being arrested because of racism and then start looking for a "solution" that usually exasperates the problem.

An example of this happening would be Ferguson. Racism was assumed and the backlash against police caused them to start patrolling the black communities less often. This resulted in a large spike in crime that hurts everyone and drove business and jobs.

[Anonymous No.10915638]

>>10915586
I can't argue with people who base their worldview on outdated axioms and misleading statistics, like you do. The truth is that, in the United States, unarmed white men are more likely to be killed by police than unarmed black men. And while unarmed black men are killed more often than in proportion to their appearance in the population, they aren't killed anywhere near to the extent that they commit violent crime. Black alienation is a real issue, but the issue is structural, and has little to do with individual acts of police brutality.

The main problem with the progressive worldview is that it isn't sufficiently pessimistic. A lot of problems they purport to want to solve are just inherent to the human experience, and can only be solved with soft totalitarian "solutions" that fuck up other aspects of society. Look at where we are now with black fatherlessness because well-meaning (and primarily black) legislators thought that they should "clean up" their communities by instituting harsher drug sentences.

[Anonymous No.10915641]

>>10915631
GO BACK TO POL. I DONT WANT TO HEAR MORE! LA! LA! LA! LA! LA! LA! LA!!!

[Anonymous No.10915651]

>>10915588
Reminder that the inventor of the washing machine did more to further women's rights than any individual feminist has

[Anonymous No.10915656]

>>10915519
>
(You)

[Anonymous No.10915692]

>>10915631

I agree with you: black people are more likely to commit crimes. But I understand that it’s not a question of their biology, but a result of historical and social forces.

Of course, that doesn’t mean we should arrest dangerous people, but we should also know that those people might not have been in that situation if it weren’t for the environment they grew up in, and all the historical events that ended up putting them in that place.

I think on this problem with a simple image: that of a factory producing criminals. One could – and should – prevent those criminals to hurt society, but if nobody stop the factory from producing they would just keep coming. So isn’t it more rational to destroy the facoty instead of keep wasting time and money persecuting the criminals it produces?

There’s the point where infrastructure, education, job opportunities, decent and fair salaries, etc., enter the stage: you will only destroy the misery (the factory that produces criminals) if you invest in making the life of those people better.

Now, you must also admit that there is an aura that surrounds black people – in the societies imaginary – that is not present around white people. That is why a black guy holding a cell phone is confused with a criminal so easily, and end up taking twenty shots. You will never see this same thing happening with a young white male like us.

[Anonymous No.10915704]

>>10915651

And the inventor of penicillin more to help all people – males and females - than Christ did.

[Anonymous No.10915725]

[Anonymous No.10915730]

>>10915529
>The world isn't perfect
Not anymore, it isn't! See what I'm getting at?

[Jeff Mangum Died For Your Sins !rAl8Mz2mp2 No.10915732]

>>10915692
>You will never see this same thing happening with a young white male like us.
Except that you do. There are tons of examples of young white men, who are unarmed, being shot by cops. White men are statistically more likely than black men to be killed by cops. Your perception of this is influenced by the outsized coverage cops shooting black people gets in the media. And the media covers it because black twitter hashtags it. White people don't have a sense of tribal identity that causes them to give a shit about a white person they don't know being shot.

[Anonymous No.10915743]

>>10915692
Black alienation is ultimately caused by the fact that they're forced to compete for resources in an increasingly knowledge-based economy with a population that has a higher IQ. Until leftists can admit that, the problem is never going to be solved.

[Anonymous No.10915777]

>>10915656

Thank you :)

[Anonymous No.10915791]

john skelton

>>10915535
or this

>>10914966
bertrand russell thought the future of art was with black people

[Anonymous No.10915792]

>>10914931
If the jury is as objectively as possible it would prolly be Rilke I guess, altho I'd like to see it given to George he is criminally underrated

[Anonymous No.10915794]

>>10915692
I take issue with how you and progressives frame the debate. Nobody said anything about biology and the question isn't whether or not we should improve conditions, it's over HOW we should improve those conditions. The intentions of people instituting social policy is not sufficient to actually improve conditions and you better be damned sure you've actually identified the "criminal factory" before you destroy it. The leaders and activists thought they found their factory and they destroyed it making the situation worse than before. They identified a problem by assuming racism and their solution was to separate police away from black communities as much as possible. The crime rate is up, the murder rate is up, poverty is increased, and education is struggling.

Do you want my solution to the problem of places like Ferguson? I would increase the police presence drastically. This is the only proven way to lower the crime rate of any given area and this is what the black community needs. A lowered crime rate will change their culture over time and that will eventually result in lower numbers of police brutality and shootings and it will eventually change the perception of criminality that people have of blacks.

[Anonymous No.10915803]

>>10915794
>The leaders and activists

(of Ferguson)

[Anonymous No.10915808]

>>10915031
The only one that realistically would have won.

[Anonymous No.10915855]

>>10915794
>Do you want my solution to the problem of places like Ferguson? I would increase the police presence drastically.

If it works I am all for it. (I was the guy you were replying to, by the way).

I think that both left and right wing politicians use flags like “racism” and “family values”, “fascist” and “communist” as weapons in discussions that are more about power and influence than anything else. But I am glad that we are talking here like civilized people, and I’m interest in your opinions.

If one could sit with specialists and devise plans based on cold logic – not on passion, not on monetary interests, not in prejudice – to apply to society than I would be supporting it. Unfortunately I don’t see this way of thinking in most political discussions.

[Anonymous No.10915867]

I love how this thread is more about "muh redpill" than about poetry. /pol/-posters should be shot.

[Anonymous No.10915883]

>>10915867
Fuck off. It's a perfectly civilized discussion

[Anonymous No.10915889]

>>10915883
But it doesn't have anything to do with poetry, you drooling troglodyte.

[Anonymous No.10915891]

to my main man, Pessoa

[Anonymous No.10915894]

>>10915855

Could the left ever agree with such a solution though even if it were proven to work? By increasing police presence specifically in black communities I'm violating "cosmic justice" by not treating everyone equally.

[Anonymous No.10915898]

>>10915889
The subject came up organically

[Anonymous No.10915920]

>>10915529
>equating progressive values with moving forward in a way that makes things better

[Anonymous No.10916041]

>>10915898
It didn't

[Anonymous No.10916073]

>>10915583
This is why a minimum wage raise is needed or a revolution

[Anonymous No.10916081]

>>10915867
''/pol/'' is in the right this instance desu.

[Anonymous No.10916085]

>>10916073

What happened in 1973?

[Anonymous No.10916098]

>>10916085
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973–75_recession

[Anonymous No.10916106]

>>10916073

Productivity doesn't mean people are working harder. It could be the result of innovation. Do you think it's possible that economic policy in the 60's caused or exasperated a separation between productivity and wages? I'm speaking more specifically of the Great Society.

[Anonymous No.10916143]

>>10915855
>Unfortunately I don’t see this way of thinking in most political discussions.
Most political discussions are irrelevant. Intellectuals do influence politicians, and a good statist knows that acting like the if system were an ococlacry is a bad idea. The fact that most political discussions are bollocks is an inevitable consequence of ignorance and the fact that you need to point it out tells more about you than it does about the actual state of discourse - where it matters. Both of you are retarded by the way.

[Anonymous No.10916173]

>>10915519
Deserved

[Anonymous No.10916177]

>>10916106
yes, as innovations happen hours of labor are worth more. people should not have to 'work harder' for wages to not stagnate while production increases. also no good economist has proven that great society caused stagflation

[Anonymous No.10916178]

>>10914931
there will come soft rains
or
remains

[Anonymous No.10916202]

>>10916177

You're assuming that somebody deserves higher pay just because their productivity goes up when there's no actual causal relationship between the two. If a guy is earning 10 dollars an hour making chairs and I come along with a machine that pops out a machine every time somebody presses a button, I'm not going to pay that same guy 10 dollars an hour to press a button all day even though he's producing more chairs than ever. I'm going to pay much less because it doesn't take dollars worth of skill and labor to do such a simple task.

[Anonymous No.10916254]

>>10916177
I'm resposting because I only proofread after I post

You're assuming that somebody deserves higher pay just because their productivity goes up when there's no actual causal relationship between the two. If a guy is earning 10 dollars an hour making chairs and I come along with a machine that pops out a chair every time somebody presses a button, I'm not going to pay that same guy 10 dollars an hour to press a button all day even though he's producing more chairs than ever. I'm going to pay much less because it doesn't take 10 dollars worth of skill and labor to do such a simple task.

[Anonymous No.10916565]

>>10916073

The minimum wage has been around since 1938. How could productivity and compensation deviate afterwards if the minimum wage is supposed to be the solution? This is assuming that the deviation actually is a problem that needs solving.

[Anonymous No.10916779]

>>10915792
Redpill me on Rilke. Where should i start?

[Anonymous No.10916791]

Me to be desolutely honest

[Anonymous No.10916829]

>>10916779
Wittgenstein gave away a share of his inheritence to him just because he was that good

>From indescribable transformation originate
>Amazing shapes. Feel! Trust!
>We suffer often: To ashes turn our flames;
>Yet art can set on fire the dust.

>Magic is here. In the realm of enchantment
>The ordinary word appears elevated
>But sounds as real as if the dove called
>To seek its invisible mate.

[Anonymous No.10916843]

>>10916829
Which work of him is his best?

[Anonymous No.10916867]

>>10916843
I loved Letters to a Young Poet, but I read him in English so I would want a German reader to speak of his best

[Anonymous No.10917440]

>>10915519
>William Shakespeare:
>(I let Shakespeare’s speech for better pens than my own to write)

We need that Anon that wrote the post in iambic pentameter that was really similar to Shakespeare - even in imagery, his use of paradox, etc.

[Anonymous No.10917452]

>>10915529
>What's the problem with that? The world isn't perfect, why one should like thing to saty as they are? If we were all to think like that we would still be living in caves and adoring the gods of thunder and lightning.
Because progressive interpretations of the world are also wrong and tend to just ape the strongest existing trends rather than being an actual instigator of change. That is why in the 1950s and 60s the future was flying cars and space colonies (competing industrial and space programs of supranational entities USA and USSR, discoveries about our solar system), but the future today is simply lauding a multicultural utopia - because the big trend at the moment is mass immigration patterns to juice big business / electoral machinations / demographics.
>>10915546
This. Ever since the industrial revolution, Progress has become a value of civilisations - for good and bad. The idea that progress can be applied to everything (including ourselves) and transform it has led to all sorts of confusion, suffering, and waste. We always take things that seem like a strength initially (e.g. progress in industrial lab conditions where a car becomes faster, more efficient, safer, etc. by stable metrics) and reapply them in contexts they don't belong in (e.g. massive social experiments and modern mysticisms enthusing about progress in society and social consciousness toward very unclear cultural objectives measured only by the zeitgeist). Progressive politics resembles nothing more than the Victorian era fad of "social darwinism" where the lower class and criminals (and other cultures) were broadly lambasted as being "less evolved" than other people. Except this time instead of being unevolved, they are bigoted, uneducated, etc.

>>10915583
Don't completely agree with you. But sadly labor is being absolutely crushed by a combination of factors including globalisation, mass immigration, gig economy, service economy, automation, as well as actual slavery and underpayment. Fast food workers, Uber drivers, and personal trainers simply have no power to negotiate for higher pay the same way that people like factory workers, tradesmen, etc. once had. No one will care if they go on strike, and they are easy to replace. Their wages and wage growth reflect this.

[Anonymous No.10917453]

>>10914931
Keats or Tennyson, hands down.

[Anonymous No.10918635]

>>10915792
Chronologically: Buch der Bilder, Stundenbuch, Neue Gedichte, Orpheus & duineser Elegien -- all excellent

[Anonymous No.10918641]

>>10914931
my diary desu