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/lit/ - Literature


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10874247 No.10874247 [Reply] [Original]

Do the kissless, hugless, virgins of /lit/ find it difficult to appreciate and comprehend romance in literature?

>> No.10874253

>>10874247
Incels are subhumans so they found it difficult to understand anything in general.

>> No.10874254

>>10874247
100% of romance in literature is idealized falsehood so no.

>> No.10874259

Just a virgin here but not at all. I will say beginning and ending a relationship with a girl while subsequently reading the plot arc of The Magus did make it feel much more poignant

>> No.10874260

>>10874247
Jane Austen was a kissless, hugless virgin and she wrote some of the most famous romances.
Pro tip: The idea of romance was invented in literature and is still mostly an ideal, a fantasy that humans would like to replace the awkward, chemical, disappointing, and ultimately temporal reality of sexual love.

>> No.10874263

>>10874254
all fiction is idealized you stupid cunt

>> No.10874266

>pic related
I feel sad for her

>> No.10874270

>>10874263
Your post is the idealized version of mental retardation gayboi.

>> No.10874271

>>10874247
Someone explain what's going on in this picture.

>> No.10874273

>>10874247
no

>> No.10874278

>>10874271
Capitalism

>> No.10874279

>>10874271
Roastie selling "date simulator" dvds

>> No.10874285

>Do the kissless, hugless, virgins of /lit/ find it difficult to appreciate and comprehend romance in literature?

That is quite the assumption my friend. I love and appreciate romance and beauty to a great extent.

>> No.10874306
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10874306

>>10874247
Dating and being with multiple girls only highlights what doesn't exist when you read about it. Virgins can romanticize the concept without being let down by reality; they're better off than the rest of us.

>> No.10874328

>>10874285
This. Pretty sure we are even more interested it than other people

>> No.10874355

>>10874247
I want to stop having feelings for women. Any books for this feel?

>> No.10874378

>>10874355
Weininger

>> No.10874388

>>10874247
The only one of those things that I am is a virgin (technically, I’ve dine naughty things), and I hold onto that list bit of innocence because of my waning religious convictions and guilt.

>> No.10874390

>>10874355
chuck tingle

>> No.10874396

>>10874378
>>10874390
real talk: are these real suggestions

>> No.10874401
File: 155 KB, 720x1152, pounded.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10874401

>>10874396
you tell me, anon

>> No.10874430

>>10874254
>>10874260
>>10874306
I just want to intermingle my soul with a womans soul in a way that we both understand each other fully. Is that so unrealistic?

>> No.10874461

>>10874247
As a KHV, I guess so? I can relate to the warm fuzzy feelings about love or having crush at least but anything other than that isn't relateable for me. Actually initiating a relationship, working on it, moving on from it if it fails. That just feels like reading fantasy to me.

>> No.10874466

>>10874253
>inceldom and virginity are synonymous
when did this happen? I thought that being an incel was a particular identity

>> No.10874476

>>10874466
Kissless hugless virgins are a very specific kind of virgin anon

>> No.10874477

>>10874259
So you were cucked by BBC?

>>10874388
How do you do naughty things but still remain a virgin?

>> No.10874480

>>10874476
Normie-logic

>> No.10874482
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10874482

>>10874430
Not unrealistic but don't think it will be in the way you imagined.

>> No.10874485

>>10874477
Benis doesn’t go in Bagina, but other things have been done.
I guess in principle, as a religious person, im not a virgin. By normie standard I think they would say I still technically am.

>> No.10874488

>>10874480
Ok anon

>> No.10874502
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10874502

>>10874485
My uncle made me suck his dick when I was 5. I'm a straight guy and I have never had sex, relationhips and have never even flirted.

Am I a virgin or not?

>> No.10874505

>>10874502
Yeah you’re a virgin, but in a good way. I’m sorry that happened to you anon. I hope one day you can find healing.

>> No.10874508

>>10874502
what happened to the uncle? Did you ever out him?

>> No.10874539

>>10874505
Thank you.

>>10874508
I know that this is wrong but I never said anything. My family was very conservative, religious and prude so I had no to desire to or any idea about how to articulate what happened to them. The Uncles lives pretty far from us now. The that he made me suck his dick years back still doesn't sound like something that I could talk about with my family. It feels awkward and embarrassing.

>> No.10874544

>>10874539
you should kill him

>> No.10874545

>>10874388
Ok eben

>> No.10874546

>>10874539
Find him and beat the living shit out of him.

>> No.10874553

On the contrary. I just wish real life romance could compare. Oh well, maybe I'm just undesireable.

>> No.10874554

>>10874539
Kill him and kill your family too

>> No.10874568

>>10874539
Beat him up at least, preferably with som sort of object that would make it more painful

>> No.10874583

>>10874355
Pro tip: you’re not going to. Even Weininger and Schopenhauer admit this if you look past people dropping the harshest quotes. Shakespeare’s Benedick is one of the best examples of an arc of a man who claims he will never let love get to him. What happens? It does. “I’ll never give them the opportunity to cheat on me!” Compare this to Sam Hyde, who we even see giving sympathy to the man in love, in the RAREST of glimpses ([omitted] video is one case). Goethe’s Werther should be consulted and there is solace in knowing that you can actually forget about “women” in general, but if you ever find yourself actually in love with a particular woman as Proust describes it, THEN you’re fucked. If you’re actually freaking out about women in general, I.e. staring at girls and thinking that’s what’s holding you back, then you probably blame life on other things too and you would HEAVILY benefit from full out discipline: watch Sam Hyde religiously, start from the Greeks, lift, stop chasing pussy, and eventually slay that online 30 year old father figure when a girl that’s worth it walks into your life.

>> No.10874597

>>10874583
>letting Sam Hyde daddy you

>> No.10874598

>>10874355
Hinduism or Buddhism

>> No.10874605

>>10874247
Why does she look more attractive sad than happy
>imb4 degeneracy

>> No.10874607

>>10874605
because it's more genuine

>> No.10874721

>>10874553
This, with honesty. Hell, I'm a 35 year old KHV and I LIKE romance in fiction. Seeing happy couples in real life is what kills me.

>> No.10874723

>>10874721
how the fuck are you a KHV at 35?

>> No.10874735
File: 1.19 MB, 960x960, de7f7eeea6573322a286f9fe67a9d3c9f7f3f55c000c8cdf148f31c9a0f62983.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10874735

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>> No.10874743

>>10874247
Romance is one of my favourite themes

>> No.10874768

Well, I started to read seriously a year ago and in terms of fiction I have only read Dostoyevsky so far. I would say "love" in his novels wasn't boring as I usually find it. In fact I could relate to the Prince because he felt piety and not really love towards Nastasya. I felt this way towards a few girls before.

>> No.10874769

>>10874539
Unironically kill him and then make him suck your dick.

>> No.10874828

Virgins are the only people able to understand and appreciate romance. As soon as people are in it they can never understand, it moves to fast, their reason and emotion becomes hopelessly intermingled, they soar high on delectable phantasms, only to have their wings burn up in the sun and plummet to the earth, broken and alone wondering what happened.

The virgin watches all this from a distance, coldly, scientifically, observing the mad man screaming and embracing the air like a lover as he staggers through the desert. Just another madman for the virgin's analytic eyes to dissect, number and catalog.

>> No.10874842

neither kissless nor hugless nor virgin, but don't understand romance since i never enjoyed any of these things. i imagine that virgins have more appreciation for romance in fiction. books for this feel?

alternatively books that make me able to experience love/romance

>> No.10874880

>>10874247
It was impossible until I stopped watching porn and worked my way up from hentai comics into just starting to make sense of romance and to have appreciation for it. I'm diagnosed with autism so hentai comics taught me most of what I know about having feelings in relationships. I'm just a kissless virgin though as I recently got hugged by accident.

>> No.10874903

>>10874482
cute, but not enough to make me not want to die

>> No.10874967

>>10874355
Start fapping to 2d traps, then RL femboys, then cute twinks etc. You need to discipline yourself into being gay, it's totally possible but a lengthy process. I started when I was about 15 and discovered hentai, over the course of a few years I switched from a typical girl-obsessed virgin into a dicksucking faggot, it's pretty great.

>> No.10875127

>>10874247

I do enjoy well written romance. Clichè, bad romance segments or whole books are pretty much aimed at sex starved normies desu, so I do not get where you get that assumption. Fiction actually ruined real life romance for me, but I still like to come back to it.
Although I am not a virgin, so maybe I lack that one inch of bitterness. Very much an autistic shut-in tho.

>> No.10875157

>>10874247
I can comprehend it. It just makes me sad. I want sex and romance so much. If I could find a nice girl to go out with me or at the very least let me cum inside her then everything in my life will come into place. Once this black cloud over my head is lifted, this hole in my soul plugged in, I'll be more relaxed, driven and confident.

There's very little literature that deals with these feels beside Prufrock and Werther. So I just lurk amongst the robots and incels silently sucking up their rage and sorrow while smugly scoffing at how much more intelligent I am than these fucking retards.

>> No.10875208

>>10874544
>>10874554
>>10874568
These anons know what's up. You'd probably get involuntary manslaughter at the most

>> No.10875212

>>10874260
This. Memory is also corrupted. I used to look at my ex through rose-tinted glasses but I finally took them off. If you are KHV you are not missing much if you are only looking to get laid.


>>10874430
It's only possible ephemerally. And then you look back and wonder if it actually happened.

>> No.10875216

>>10874583
m8, sam hyde is fucking hilarious and I love his vids but he's not a fucking role model in any way. He's a dangerously depressed, bitter, and cynical, pre-maturely aged man. You'd do good to stay away from his type of thinking.

>> No.10875238

>>10874247
I’m engaged to my wife to be and I don’t have time for romance in literature

>> No.10875247
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10875247

>>10874967
>I switched from a typical girl-obsessed virgin into a dicksucking faggot, it's pretty great
This is why I come to 4chan.

>> No.10875252
File: 515 KB, 1280x932, yuri.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10875252

>>10874247
>tfw lost my virginity to an escort at age 24

it was a choice i should have made years earlier
i am more confident when i talk to women now
at least i can say i am not a virgin
fucking kill me please i want to die

>> No.10875267

>>10875252
Have you had sex since then?

>> No.10875274 [DELETED] 

>>10875267
yes, with various other escorts
i've come to the conclusion that there is no point in pursuing women for sex when relationships are meaningless and you can just pay for sex anyways

>> No.10875282

>>10874247
Reminder that this isn’t r9k
Reminder that being lit implies having had at least 2 romances and 1 heart broken

>> No.10875287

>>10874967
But... sucking dick isn't gay.

>> No.10875289

>>10874247
I was born with a massively deformed dick.
Having been denied the right to love, I console myself reading romantic stories.

>> No.10875300

>>10875289
pffft
there is no way your dick is as deformed as mine
3" erect, botched circumcision and hypospadias repair left it with lots of scar tissue on the underside and around the head ridge. Urethra is severely narrowed, I have to dilate it with a catheter twice a week

>> No.10875310

>>10875300
Are you a virgin?

>> No.10875315

>>10875310
no, im >>10875252

>> No.10875316

>>10875274
Having a relationship is an exciting experience, mate, you shouldn't deprive yourself of it. It won't make you happy for sure, and chances are, you will end up a more bitter loner than you were before, but still, it's an exceptional sensation when the centre of your inner life shifts to an extraneous person.

>> No.10875334

>>10875300
>3"
Fucking Christ, that's half a smartphone's length.

>> No.10875341
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10875341

I am merely a virgin (have experienced romance though). I appreciate reading it though, so can remember what it's like and pretend for a while I am not fucked up and can love someone forever.

>> No.10875354

I'm so alone that I have problems comprehending love and acceptance in reality. I sort of think that most people put up with me because it's their job.

>> No.10875690

>>10874355
just keep browsing 4chang, you'll be a faggot soon enough

>> No.10875718

>>10874260

>Buuuurp L-l-Listen Morty, I hate to break it to you, but what people call "love" is just a chemical reaction that compels animals to breed. It hits hard, BUUURP Morty, then it slowly fades, leaving you stranded in a failing marriage. I did it. Your parents are gonna do it. Break the cycle, Morty. Rise above. Focus on science.

XD

>> No.10875752

>>10875287
I don't care what it is, all I know is that it's absolutely wonderful. Is there a more transcendental experience than having a prime uncut specimen filling your mouth, its manly scent making you dizzy while thick sperm shoots into your throat? Penetrative sex is fucking boring compared to that.

>> No.10875786
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10875786

>>10874355

>> No.10875798
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10875798

>>10874355
Realize that no woman will ever be as beautiful as Mother Mary, and devote yourself to God

>> No.10875861

>>10874355
Read on women by stropenhower

>> No.10875940

>>10874355

Think of women as men, who grew out their hair and wear make up, and cut their dicks off.

You'll either kill your boner for good, or become gay. Take the chance.

>> No.10876366

>>10874430
Yes?

>> No.10876407

>>10875798
I would fuck the shit out of Mary.
Girl would be so pregs there would be 20 messias.

>> No.10876478

>>10874502
Pics?

>> No.10876491

>>10874488
What do you call someone who has had sex, is unlikely to have it again, and terrible dysfunction in regards to psychosexuality?

>> No.10876499

>>10875208
yeah, and if any anons are in the jury, you may be able to get a counter suit against your uncle's estate.

>> No.10876515

>>10874723
Where do you think we are?

>> No.10876526

>>10875786
>>>Implying all my married friends with kids the woman had with a different man aren't infinitesimally more miserable than I am

It is to laugh.

>> No.10876551

>>10874247
I've been kissed, but it was ages ago, I've been hugged plenty of times and I've held hands at least once in my life but I've never had or come close to having sex.

What does that make me?

>> No.10876572

>>10874247
no because ive had sex, been in love and done plenty of both kissing and embracing. i don’t know why you think this board has a high number of KHV’s, /fit/ has more losers than /lit/, most of us are in college and have friends/gf’s

>> No.10876587

>>10876572
i am in "college" which means i go out once in two week for lectures. I am 22 years old kissless jobless virgin and i dont even read that much

>> No.10876598

Why do people on this website put a premium on sex? Why is it the end all/be all of human existence for you fucking people?

STDs and kids are a surefire way to make your life a miserable hell and what the fuck is the point of it all if you're just going to put your dick in a small rubber sock anyway?

>> No.10876604

>>10876587
most people on this board are not virgins you psychopath

>> No.10876629

>>10876551
A virgin.

>> No.10876633

>>10876604
i forgot to add: i study computer science, i read philosophy and french poetry in my spare time

>> No.10876641

>>10876598
Why are you pretending sex isn't an important part of human life?

>> No.10876652

>>10876641
It.. Really isn't. Its not a necessity.

>> No.10876667

>>10874539
Don't know if you're still there but discussing this sort of thing with a therapist is probably the most healthy thing you can do. Who knows how that could have affected other parts of your life? The state of things could improve dramatically and you could even get some real closure

>> No.10876750

Why does a lack of sex make me wish I was dead?

>> No.10876794

Having only had sex once with a girl I cared about very much and she me (or at least as much as you can care about someone seriously when you're an emotionally stunted sixteen year old) it is an entirely disappointing experience if you're expecting "love" or "romance". It doesn't seem to exist in the world the way it does in literature. Maybe it was me. Its not as if I didn't enjoy the experience, I was simply disappointed. As part of the coping process, I wrote incredibly romantic literature for her, which she liked but only led me feeling more let down.
I have yet to repeat the process, although I'm still somehow hopeful.

>> No.10876801

>>10876652
It really is. Go through all the important literature of human history and tell me which ones don't involve sex.

>> No.10876811

>>10874721
>Seeing happy couples in real life is what kills me.
Know you are only seeing a glimpse of a rustling curtain. What goes on behind is usually not beautiful.

>> No.10876825
File: 593 KB, 674x867, 1518257141635.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10876825

>>10875798

>> No.10877477

>>10876750
We only exist to procreate. Not that we cannot do other stuff, but if we die without procreating the existence of the human race will end. Procreating is the most important thing, you can do or not do other things aside of procreating, but if you don't procreate there's no one to procreate let alone do other stuff after you die. Thus without procreating your life doesn't make sense. We can only procreate via sex. Thus without sex your life doesn't make sense. If it doesn't matter if you live, you want to die. That's why you want to die.
It's really the easiest question to answer. Also this is the rather atheistic approach.
The world stopped being a good place for living for the low and low middle class long time ago. But the autistis still copulate and procreate. Don't bring a slave into this world so the high class would have to start working themselves for their own food again.

>> No.10877507
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10877507

>>10877477
>We only exist to procreate.
Stopped reading right there

>> No.10877517

>>10874247
>tarantino.jpg
What’s going on in OP pic?

>> No.10877521

I'm the opposite. I find it very easy to appreciate and comprehend romance in literature, even when it's done in a corny hackneyed way. I pretty much agree with Schopenhauer 100% on women and am not far off from the average blackpill incel, but I don't know, I guess I can turn off that part of my brain, and deep down, I just want to be loved. ;_;

>> No.10878606
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10878606

>>10875718
good post

>> No.10879034

>>10875216
Not that anon but I think his advice on the struggle of becoming a successful entertainer/artist is realistic and empowering.

>> No.10879100
File: 894 KB, 2206x2939, 1520739073907.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10879100

Seeing cute girls on the street or in lecture is painful as fuck, but seeing couples walking about really fires up the suicidal thoughts. That shit is too painful.
I barely ever interact with women and most of the literature I enjoy barely feature women. That is something I've only recently noticed.

>> No.10879108

>>10879100
It's not too late to change your life anon

>> No.10879120

>>10879108
It was always too late, anon.

>> No.10879132

>>10879120
You can't know that.

>> No.10879134

>>10874247
i though kisless/hugless virgins found romance in literature the most appealing, just look at anime and novels all have a hint of romance in it as compared to western cartoons, i remember asking my big brother in childhood that why does all anime regardless of action or not have this girl boy thing why is that,

>> No.10879135

>>10879132
Anyone can see it.

>> No.10879141

>>10879135
Goodspeed anon.

>> No.10879150

>>10874546
this
>>10874539
find and beat the shit out of him, the excitement of thinking about it will really make you live, you will be taking back what was taken from you, the excitement of giving your uncle the time of his life for what he have done will give you a purpose, everything will change, you will enjoy everything because you will finally take back the thing you never knew you needed

>> No.10879181
File: 141 KB, 695x779, 1495361263739.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10879181

>>10879100
once you see that girls are walking baboons with pussy craving fun, you no longer take them seriously and you stop being upset when seeing them

once you see that men are walking dildos desperate to be chosen and objectified by women, you stop taking them seriously and you stop being upset when seeing them

>> No.10879249

>>10874247
When you say "romance", are you limiting it strictly to interpersonal relationships? Outside of the realm of the aforementioned interpersonal relationships I'd argue that the vast majority of "hardcore" chan denizens are closet romantics that are deficient in self-awareness.

>> No.10879321

>>10875718
It's a strictly literary phenomenon but by all means fuck, if you can, everything that walks on two legs, just don't get all idealistic and otherworldly about it. Key words: sagging meat, less money, less time.

>> No.10879330

>>10877477
Fuck off rtard.

>> No.10879584

>>10876801
This mentality is exactly why male/female relationships are so shit.

>> No.10879715

>>10879321

No.

>> No.10880144

>>10875315
what did the escort said when she saw your little sad penis?

>> No.10880189

>>10874723
WHERE do you think we are?

>> No.10880206

>>10874430
If you're both uninteresting and without any mental shortcomings, no it's not. The more you deviate from the norm the lesser chances you have of finding people that understand you.

>> No.10880513

>>10880144
>easy money, I love those men, I love my life

>> No.10880738
File: 43 KB, 493x449, 1509279980687.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10880738

>>10876604
>i am in "college" which means i go out once in two week for lectures. I am 22 years old kissless jobless virgin and i dont even read that much
>psychopath

>> No.10880804

>>10874285
>>10874328
Like =/= appreciate

>> No.10880869

>>10874247
They may very well not understand it, but that's probably a blessing and a curse. Love, romance, etc. in literature isn't brilliant and they're not missing much if they can't understand it. It's definitely not worth pining over.

>> No.10880877

>>10880206
yup even if u are hot

>> No.10881319

>>10880206
>The more you deviate from the norm the lesser chances you have of finding people that understand you
Fuck

>> No.10881342
File: 56 KB, 1200x630, bladerunner-2-trailer-watch-8bd914b0-744f-43fe-9904-2564e9d7e15c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10881342

>>10874247
no, but it does make me upset. One of the main reasons I read so much is to keep myself from being reminded of how lonely I am.

>> No.10881352

>>10874247
I have a hot girlfriend. Not only that, I’m cheating on her with another sexy broad from another town. It’s hard to make time for both of them while reading Augustine’s City of God, but one does what one must.

>> No.10881394

I wouldn't say it makes me upset, just uncomfortable. I like romance in fiction though, I get to live vicariously through it

>> No.10882324

>>10874247
Back to /pol/ with you. Also, whats wrong with being a virgin? I would take back every stroke if I could. I would take back every kind thing that I did for her and simply let her rot away.

>> No.10882353

>>10881352
t. LARPing beta
>>10882324
t. resentful beta

>> No.10882408

>>10875341
same

>> No.10882421

>>10881342
my man

>> No.10882422

>>10874247
what the fuckkk is that pic related

>> No.10882452
File: 3.70 MB, 3200x4000, Dostoevsky.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10882452

>>10874247
No. If anything, it makes me appreciate it more.

>But to imagine that I should bear you a grudge, Nastenka! That I should cast a dark cloud over your serene, untroubled happiness; that by my bitter reproaches I should cause distress to your heart, should poison it with secret remorse and should force it to throb with anguish at the moment of bliss; that I should crush a single one of those tender blossoms which you have twined in your dark tresses when you go with him to the altar.... Oh never, never! May your sky be clear, may your sweet smile be bright and untroubled, and may you be blessed for that moment of blissful happiness which you gave to another, lonely and grateful heart! My God, a whole moment of happiness! Is that too little for the whole of a man's life?

>> No.10882513

McMurphy from Cuckoo's Nest is the way to go

>> No.10882525

>>10882421
I got a lot of reading done today but I had to stop because I couldn't stop thinking about how lonely I am. The emptiness inside makes my chest hurt. I wish I was kidding

>> No.10882575

>>10882422
She is marketing on her beauty by selling DVDs of her doing whatever a first date DVD video is

>> No.10882690

Anons, what does it mean when you keep having disturbing, surreal dreams about a girl you know? She's the only person who isn't a family member that's ever appeared in my dreams. I feel like they should mean something but I don't know what. Three nights in a row I've been dreaming of her, and I've dreamed of her once, maybe twice, before
We went to HS together and have stayed in fleeting contact. She's a real sweet girl, maybe even marriage material, but of course I have my reservations about being anything other than occasional friends.
Is it just cuz I'm thinking about her it comes out in dreams?

>> No.10883335

>>10874247
is she advertising a porno of herself? is that what's going on there or do i just have a filthy mind?

>> No.10883344

>>10882353
Lol. Apparently I am the king of (YOU)'s. Did I do good? You remind me of my first fight as a grown man. It was with her other boyfriend. He was an accomplished boxer in the marines. I had never been in a real fight. He just got out of jail. He was foaming at the mouth, high out of his mind on meth. He said "You fucked my woman!". Sure enough I did. But I never beat her ass like he did. He bloodied me up pretty good, but I still managed to win. Lol. I don't make apologies anon.

>> No.10883359

>>10882690
Don't take it too seriously anon. If the dreams are nice, then enjoy them while they last.

>> No.10883548

>>10882353
jesus fuck is alpha/beta shit dated. I remember normies using it in middle school. ipso facto it's dead m8, normies don't use terms that long and you are proving yourself an autist, or a beta if you will by continuing to use it

>> No.10883692

>>10883359
I guess that's as good as I can do huh?
Its just messing with me. Don't know what to do.
Thanks anon.

>> No.10883769
File: 12 KB, 251x242, 1426880168312.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10883769

>>10883548
>ipso facto

>> No.10884354

>>10883335
No, she's advertising a date (with her), I'm pretty sure. School girls for sale type shit. A 'date' likely includes touchy-touchy, fellatio, and maybe intercourse. It is Japan after all.

>> No.10884365

>>10884354
Never mind. It's just some 'struggling' idol selling her DVD for like $5, according to the internet at least. There is no proper source for image, so...