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/lit/ - Literature

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10785192 No.10785192 [Reply] [Original]

Why are some of you so reluctant to call this genre fiction? Just because it's well written and ''comfy'' doesn't mean it's not genre fiction.

>> No.10785203

>>10785192
There is no such thing as well-written genre fiction.

>> No.10785262

>>10785203
Unless part of your definition of genre fiction includes being poorly written, this seems akin to saying there are no well made blockbusters.

>> No.10785269

>>10785192
>It's well written
lol

>> No.10785271

>>10785269
better written than your diary desu

>> No.10785286

>>10785262
>Unless part of your definition of genre fiction includes being poorly written
It does. What do you think genre fiction means? Surely: fiction which relies on the tropes and cliches of its genre. This cannot lead to good writing.

>> No.10785291

>>10785203
the divine comedy is genre fiction

>> No.10785302

>>10785291
Explain yourself, blackamoor.

>> No.10785410

>>10785286
So the only good writing is that which bucks conventions? Seems a very shallow view to take.

>> No.10785471

>>10785410
Ascends conventions.

>> No.10785493

>>10785410
Good writing ignores conventions, whether or not it follows them in certain areas.

For example, if a princess needs to be rescued from a dragon, this is for some thought-out reason. As opposed to a princess needing rescue because -- well, isn't that what all the fairytales do?

>> No.10785953

>>10785286
All fiction falls into a genre.

>> No.10786074

>>10785953
But not all fiction is written to be a certain genre from the outset, which I think is what the difference is. It's saying, "I'm going to write a [genre] book" versus "I'm going to write a book" and it turns out to have such a degree of constituent elements it just falls into a that category. And this is not to say that taking the second approach guarantees a quality piece of literature, just that following the first approach implicitly lays constraints on an author to appeal to a certain narrative framework rather than being unconstrained and uninhibiting its potentiality

>> No.10786093

Because literature snobs like to use genre fiction as a term to deride things, and they would need actual valid criticisms if it became a neutral term. I don't think I've ever seen anyone dismiss Le Morte d'Arthur or The Faerie Queene as genre fiction even though they are..

>> No.10786102

>>10785192
If you are trying to convince people to give genre fiction a chance, why would you use the worst possible genre?

>> No.10786117

>>10785192
God look at how comfy those scenes are. I need a proper LOTR vidya where I can just chill in Hobbiton with my bois.

>> No.10786155

>>10785192
Three of the best books ever written. The depth is really revealed in the appendix of the last book and the histories compiled and published by his son. He was a brilliant linguist and writer.

>> No.10786167

>>10785192

>be Tolkien
>be one of the most important authors of the early 20th century
>colleges refuse to teach your books to future generations because a bunch of hack authors tried to imitate your work and now the only people who read your books are illiterate mouthbreathers

>> No.10786444

>>10786155
I skipped the appendix and just bought the Silmarillion. Was that wise? I figured the Silmarillion would just elaborate on any information in the appendix. It just arrived today and I have a week off from work starting Sunday so I'm planning to dig into then.

>> No.10786447

>>10785192
I'm literally reading Two Towers right now, my fellow patrician.

>> No.10786734

The Lord of the Rings isn't genre fiction because when it was written it wasn't a formulaic entry into an established marking niche in the commercial publishing industry with a dedicated readership who don't care about the quality of the story so long as it contains shopworn tropes that they're already familiar with. It's just plain old literature.

>> No.10786748
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10786748

This is superior in every way.

>> No.10786959

>>10786748
>puts a cat in his tunic
>never takes it out
Sure kid

>> No.10787042

>>10786444
>Silmarillion
happy reading anon
it gives a whole new context to the LotR

>> No.10787053

>>10786444
Silmarillion is mostly fucking great, but because he died before finishing it some parts are stronger than others. Treat each chapter as its own short story because you can tell a couple of them are still in the early draft stage.

>> No.10787057

>>10786734
Underrated post.

>> No.10787068 [DELETED] 

>>10786444
Read the appendix after.

>> No.10787070
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10787070

>Why are some of you so reluctant to call this genre fiction?

>> No.10787071

>>10786444
The appendix has information not in the Silmarillion (pretty much all of it is comprised of that), but the Silmarillion helps put it in context - so read them all after.

>> No.10787076
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10787076

>>10787070
>Why are some of you so reluctant to call this genre fiction?

>> No.10787079
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10787079

>>10787076
>Why are some of you so reluctant to call this genre fiction?

>> No.10787087
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10787087

Is 'genre fiction' a genre in itself?

>> No.10787090
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10787090

>>10787079
>Why are some of you so reluctant to call this genre fiction?

>> No.10787100

>>10785192
All these insecure Americans, desperate to get their pat on the head for being "serious readers", reading "literary fiction".

Meanwhile Brits are writing great entertainments like the Flashman series or James Bond, good Scifi like Wells' novels, Verne, Arthur C Clarke, Brian Aldiss, John Brunner.

Americans desperate need to be "serious" is just an outgrowth of their gloomy protestant utilitarianism.

>> No.10787125
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10787125

>Why are some of you so reluctant to call this genre fiction?

>> No.10787133
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10787133

>>10785192
>Why are some of you so reluctant to call this genre fiction?

>> No.10787271

You might as well call Don Quixote genre fiction while your at it.

>> No.10787293

>>10787271
But it was a send up of genre fiction.

>> No.10787304

>>10787293
It is still genre fiction. Doesn't really matter that it is poking fun at it.

>> No.10787358

>>10785192
We don't call it genre fiction because the actual genre fiction is just a poor imitation of the external aspects of Tolkien. Tolkien was not writing within the modern fantasy genre, as it did not exist yet.

>> No.10787388

There's good writing and bad writing, get out of academia's asshole.
The fantasy genre was well-underway when Tolkien wrote his works, and this makes him no less of a great writer.

>> No.10787467

>>10785203
Pynchon. He literally writes detective fiction.

>> No.10787472

>>10786734
>Tolkien invented the fantasy novel
Wew lad

>> No.10787533

>>10787090
If /lit/ existed in the 16th century they would.

>> No.10787537

>>10787358
>>10786734
pls stop this ''tolkien invented fantasy'' meme. Fantasy had been an established genre for decades when LOTR was published.

>> No.10787729

>>10787388
>>10787537
Fucking retard Tolkien invented a whole branch of fantasy so popular it may as well be called "modern fantasy".

"genre fiction" doesn't mean "fiction which can be conceivably placed within a genre", you utter niggers. Tragedy is a genre, but no one's calling Hamlet genre fiction.

>> No.10787734

>>10787304
What kind of idiocy does it take to think that "genre fiction" MUST be so wide a term as to describe literally every work in existence? Butthurt SFFags...they make me sick...

>> No.10787821

>>10787100
>Verne
>British

This is what Americans actually belive

>> No.10787852

>>10785192
>spawns the genre
>retroactively included in the genre
not how that works

>> No.10787862

>>10787852
>BUT SWORDS AND MAGIC EXISTED BEFORE THAT
not the same genre
not what LotR is about

LotR is mythological in scale and depth. It projects the world onto a microcosm taking into account almost every aspect of actual life in proportion.

>> No.10787867

>>10787729
you as wrong as he is.

the 'modern fantasy' succeeding LotR is nothing like LotR at all

>> No.10787876

>>10787867
>the 'modern fantasy' succeeding LotR is nothing like LotR at all
Are you retarded? It may scoop everything GOOD about LotR out and use only the superficial skeleton, but the popularity of epic tones and constructed worlds is owed to Tolkien.

>> No.10788011

>>10785192
Probably the only instance in history where the movie is better than the book.

>> No.10788041

>>10788011
the movie is great but this makes no sense

>> No.10788055

>>10785302
it's fiction (allegedly) that falls under the genre of fantasy
even though it's an allegory

>> No.10788148

>>10785493
Well isn't a dragon being scary and evil enough of a reason?

>> No.10788153

>>10788148
because your book is pointless shit

>> No.10788222

>>10788041
I respect your opinion, thinking that the books are better but you're wrong and I hate you

>> No.10788234

>>10788222
they are doing 2 completely different things, so not sure if it makes any sense to compare the books with the movie

>> No.10788243

>>10788041
>The movie is great

>> No.10788244

>>10785203
A lot of snobs like T.S Eliot really liked good detective stories

>> No.10788261

>>10788243
it is :<

>> No.10788288

>>10788261
The movies definitely are great, but the flaws with the characterization of most of the figures alone are enough that the books are better.

>> No.10788300

>>10788288
the movies are mostly plot with worldbuilding going on in the background, the books are almost purely worldbuilding and they are fantastic at it as long as you retain any sort of innocence in your heart

i wouldn't compare them as the movies only manage to capture a very thin slice of all the worldbuilding Tolkien did, and they are very good at it, but you are just loosing too much if you limit yourself just to the films

>> No.10788333

>>10788288
>implying that the black and white characterization of Tolkien is good

>> No.10788342

>>10788333
>archetypal characters are bad
ok

>> No.10788348

>>10788261
No it isn't. Please watch some real cinema, you're missing out.

>> No.10788360

>>10788348
i don't care for films

>> No.10788736
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10788736

Don't mind me, just enjoying some genre fiction

>> No.10789918
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10789918

Why are some of you so reluctant to call this genre fiction?

>> No.10790536
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10790536

Why are some of you so reluctant to call this genre fiction? Just because it's well written and ''comfy'' doesn't mean it's not genre fiction.

>> No.10790587

>>10790536
The Bible is well written, but not very comfy.

>> No.10790617

>>10787076
fanfiction too, no less

>> No.10790741

>>10785192
by definition anything that is not general fiction is genre fiction. People are reluctant to call great works of literature genre fiction because autist snobs have been memeing their chosen style into supremacy since greek times, you know, when faggotry started to taint the west.

>> No.10790763

>>10788011
Jaws, The Godfather, Touch of Evil were all better as movies.

>> No.10790922

>>10786155
>it's good because the lore is so deep
t. genre fiction reader.

>> No.10792078

>>10787729
>Fucking retard Tolkien invented a whole branch of fantasy
No he didn't. He was influential, but influential genre fiction is still genre fiction.

>> No.10792080

>>10788342
What's the difference between an archrtypal and a stock character?

>> No.10792082

>>10788288
Tolkien didn't write especially deep characters to begin with. Books are comfier though.

>> No.10792083

>>10785192
It's not at all stylistically similar to genre fiction (i.e. fantasy) books, those are naturalistic or realistic in style set in an invented world, Tolkien in general is stylistically most similar to ancient and medieval literature and entirely forgoes realism.

>> No.10792085

>>10785203
Genre fiction has a narrower scope and different ambitions, but a talented author can still work really well within those constraints.

>> No.10792088
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10792088

Why are some of you so reluctant to call this Literature? Just because it's well written and ''comfy'' doesn't mean it's genre fiction.

>> No.10792247

>>10785203
Thomas Pynchon and Raymond Chandler would like a word, anon.

>> No.10792965

>>10790763
>The Godfather