/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.10737025]

>“The various forms of education or ‘normalization’ imposed upon an individual consist in making him or her change points of subjectification, always moving towards a higher, nobler one in closer conformity with the supposed ideal. Then from the point of subjectification issues a subject of enunciation, as a function of a mental reality determined by that point. Then from the subject of enunciation issues a subject of the statement, in other words, a subject bound to statements in conformity with a dominant reality”

Was he a genius or just full of shit and stringing wordsalad for hundreds of pages?

[Anonymous No.10737067]

>>10737025
In other words:
Educational institutions teach people to define themselves in a certain way.
People relate to reality through these definitions.
People come to believe certain "real" things about themselves as a result of these definitions.

[Anonymous No.10737223]

>>10737025
In english, doc.

[Anonymous No.10737231]

>>10737025
supreme genius

[Anonymous No.10737232]

>>10737067
So why didn't he just say it in a simple way?

[Anonymous No.10737236]

>>10737025
I don't get why post-structuralists hate power and dominance so much. What do they propose as an alternative? It sounds to me like they want no culture at all.

[Anonymous No.10737244]

>>10737232
He's French.

[Anonymous No.10737246]

>>10737025
>your perspective is formed by your experiences
THANKS A MILLION BUDDY

[Anonymous No.10737250]

>>10737236
Try reading them.

[Anonymous No.10737262]

>>10737232
>>10737244
It's one of the "norms" he refers to: "I have been educated to speak in jargon, I relate things to jargon, I speak in jargon."

[Anonymous No.10737271]

>>10737232
>>10737244
>>10737262

Foucault said that the French make up bullshit and gibberish because otherwise people won't think they're profound. Apparently it's much worse than 10%.

[Anonymous No.10737273]

>>10737236
This is what liberals actually believe.

[Anonymous No.10737278]

>>10737025
What is an academic dickriding academia?

[Anonymous No.10737283]

Why haven't you attained BwO status yet?

This guy has: http://rhizomes.net/issue11/hurley/index.html
>Using a reel of embroidery thread inserted in my anus, I spin a web approximately 30 cm in diameter and promptly masturbate over it, ejaculating onto the web. The whole process is captured by a tiny spy-camera attached to the underside of my crotch using lengths of elastic and a number of safety pins.
>I walk to Hamadrydad Park, at the end of our street in Butetown, and dig a hole roughly ten inches deep before eating several spoonfuls of the dirt that I have excavated. Later that evening, drunk on Foucault and a half bottle of cheap vodka, I go cruising in Club Exit where I meet a 22-year-old (possibly called Stuart). We go home, exchange seminal fluids (both swallowing) and he leaves in a taxi at 3.45am. We do not exchange telephone numbers and I do not see him again.

[Anonymous No.10737290]

>>10737273
No, I think they probably have a more nuanced opinion, but I am confused and that is all I can see in them.

[Anonymous No.10737295]

>>10737025
If you don't understand what he is saying, then you need to go back to plebbit you fucking autodidact. It's a basic criticism of the Platonism which forms our academy.

[Anonymous No.10737299]

>>10737290
they don't have examined opinions at all, because if they stopped and thought rationally for even an hour their entire worldview would collapse.

Hence the state of constant anxiety that veers into panic whenever a taboo comes into sight

[Anonymous No.10737302]

>>10737232
The point is to make you think in a different way.
By the way that quote isn't hard to understand at all.

[Anonymous No.10737305]

>>10737295
The point is that he used 100 words to say what he could tell with 10, and actually ruins his point by using so many words.

[Anonymous No.10737307]

>>10737290
Hon, you're the liberal. That's why you love dominance so much, because you are dominant. But soon, you will be dead in the ground with maggots in your arse.
>>10737299
MUH RAISINS

[Anonymous No.10737311]

>>10737305
Nope. Go back to plebbit, autodidact subhuman

[Anonymous No.10737313]

>>10737271
He said only 10% of it is gibberish?

[Anonymous No.10737316]

>>10737302
>The point is to make you think in a different way.
What way then? You can justify any type of shitty and vacuous writing by saying "it's meant to make you think".

[Anonymous No.10737317]

>>10737236
I don't think this is a proper reading of those writers. In fact, all the humanities undergrads who reduce Foucault to "muh institutional power structures" are missing the point entirely. The point behind post-structuralism is the second-order matrix of power (what Deleuze terms an 'abstract machine' in the virtual) behind those particular power structures, which cannot be attributed to any particular subjects

[Anonymous No.10737321]

>>10737313
Yeah
http://www.critical-theory.com/foucault-obscurantism-they-it/

[Anonymous No.10737328]

>>10737316
>What way then?
There isn't a single one.
>You can justify any type of shitty and vacuous writing by saying "it's meant to make you think".
No you can't. It's the same reason Nietzsche wrote in aphorisms btw.

[Anonymous No.10737330]

>>10737283
>For two hours I trail a mucous trail with my tongue over the interior surface of a greenhouse, wearing only a jockstrap and a camouflage-print gymsack. Inside the gymsack is a large water bottle containing a mixture of my own urine, faeces, vomit and semen. The greenhouse is shared with a number of other lives snails collected from the wild in Cardiff Bay, themselves moving and existing independently of, but alongside, me on the glass.

>On a sheet of clear plastic under which lies a video camera, I eat a lunch of tomato and couscous salad with a lemon dressing, and repeatedly regurgitate it until the food became a liquid consistency and I am able to ingest it simply by sucking the mixture through my lips.

[Anonymous No.10737332]

>>10737317
>second-order matrix of power (what Deleuze terms an 'abstract machine' in the virtual) behind those particular power structures, which cannot be attributed to any particular subjects
Is this supposed to something other than spontaneous order of the capitalism variety?

[Anonymous No.10737334]

>>10737317
Fuck off, STEMsperg. Get a rope.

[Anonymous No.10737339]

>>10737328
>There isn't a single one.
You can apply this to everything, even meaningless computer-generated word-salad, and you could deflect any criticism by saying "there are more interpretations possible, you're just not getting it" and it could go on and on forever until you throw yourself out of a window due to shame.

[Anonymous No.10737357]

>>10737302
It's literally gobbledygook. As Sokal, Chomsky, et al (people with a bigger IQ than you) would agree.

[Anonymous No.10737361]

>>10737232
so you know how the modernists in painting and literature were militating against consumption in the early 20th century? they wanted to make art that couldn't be easily gobbled up by the masses so they deliberately used styles and syntaxes that were nearly impossible to understand at a moment's glance. the dadaists are the obvious examples, of course now they are thoroughly commodified. but take Debord for example. most of Society of the Spectacle is pretty accessible. there are some incredibly dense chapters about the failures of scientific marxism, but most people skip those. Debord got really depressed because he felt like his book was consumed and then appropriated mistakenly by career academics. so the spectacle became part of the spectacle.

i think something to keep in mind when you're approaching these really tough french boys (not to mention the frankfurt school, and especially adorno, who was EXTREMELY militant about defying conventions of writing style and accepted forms of discourse; to this day he is impenetrable to most people without a great effort) is that they weren't just spewing shit onto the pages out of nothing. they had extensive backgrounds in philosophy. they were trained for years and years about argumentation and types of understanding and language and so on. they had plans. they wrote in such eccentric ways because they believed that STYLE was part of their project. the writing itself contributes to the rebelliousness of the theory that it creates. that's why i would say they resisted making everything simple and easy. because 1. they had complicated things they wanted to say and 2. they didn't want their theories to be misappropriated and abused for superficial purposes.

[Anonymous No.10737403]

>>10737361
>i think something to keep in mind when you're approaching these really tough french boys (not to mention the frankfurt school, and especially adorno, who was EXTREMELY militant about defying conventions of writing style and accepted forms of discourse; to this day he is impenetrable to most people without a great effort) is that they weren't just spewing shit onto the pages out of nothing. they had extensive backgrounds in philosophy. they were trained for years and years about argumentation and types of understanding and language and so on. they had plans. they wrote in such eccentric ways because they believed that STYLE was part of their project. the writing itself contributes to the rebelliousness of the theory that it creates. that's why i would say they resisted making everything simple and easy. because 1. they had complicated things they wanted to say and 2. they didn't want their theories to be misappropriated and abused for superficial purposes.
What a load of bollocks. If you can explain something in a simple fashion, but choose to complicate it more than it is actually necessary explain your ideas, because you want to stick it to the plebs or appear edgy, go fuck yourself.

[Anonymous No.10737406]

>>10737339
No anon, you can't.
A quick example:
heojfpwjcpapspwjcpqkfn65lKsieoxkslalsls++(hsn
No matter how much I try, I'm never going to convince anyone that what I wrote above is good writing. The possibility of multiple ways of writing doesn't imply that all types of writing are equal.

[Anonymous No.10737414]

>>10737328
Nietzsche wrote in aphorisms to activate the nervous system as a whole. He and his influencees write in very different ways.
>>10737357
Nope. IQ is a nonmetric, and you just named two morons.

[Anonymous No.10737421]

>>10737414
>IQ is a nonmetric
IQ is predictive of many outcomes, which makes it actual science, as opposed to 95% of what passes for it in the social sciences

[Anonymous No.10737422]

>>10737403
Aristotle did the same thing, you know. You're ignoring a lot of insightful philosophy if you refuse to read something just because it could have been said more simply.

[Anonymous No.10737424]

>>10737414
>two morons.
Let us see your accomplishments, pseud.

[Anonymous No.10737426]

>>10737406
That's not word salad you mongoloid. Schizophrenic writings are word salad, psychopathic ramblings are word salads. Word salads have 'words'

[Anonymous No.10737437]

>>10737403
>1. they had complicated things they wanted to say and 2. they didn't want their theories to be misappropriated and abused for superficial purposes.

you translated that to

>you want to stick it to the plebs or appear edgy

i think if i was writing something theoretical i would probably be less intricate about it than the old thinkers were. i think i would do it just to keep it out of the hands of neanderthals like you.

[Anonymous No.10737439]

>>10737426
>penis book Dante was the story of art of Alessandro Manzoni performed as Bombo from monster allergy
Better now?

[Anonymous No.10737447]

>>10737422
There's a difference between saying things as simply as possible and intentional obscurantism. Aristotle was actually able to translate his ideas into a provocative yet lucid literary style. Deleuze wrote a book and then boobytrapped it with a bomb to make sure that only certain people (those who can dismantle boobytraps) can truly appreciate it.

[Anonymous No.10737448]

>>10737421
Nope.
>science
Not valid, sorry sweetie.
Looks like you don't understand science. Consider suicide as a remedy.
>>10737424
Show me their's. Oh wait, there is none. Meanwhile, I own this world.
Fuck off with your white supremacism, modernist.

[Anonymous No.10737453]

>>10737422
Aristotle is very easy to understand, at least the translations I've read are. He lays everything out in the simplest terms possible, and the arguments proceed logically.

I'm not even saying Deleuze and co. are without merit but the way they write is insane

[Anonymous No.10737455]

>>10737448
I love this poster btw

[Anonymous No.10737459]

>>10737448
IQ is literally predictive of many outcomes, are you just denying reality?

[Anonymous No.10737461]

>>10737453
They are easy to understand, you're just illiterate.

[Anonymous No.10737467]

>>10737461
I am probably better read in my second and third languages than you are in your first.

[Anonymous No.10737468]

>>10737437
>writing things clearly and in a simple fashion means your work will be more easily misconstrued, misunderstood, or misappropriated than if you wrote it in an obscure, vague, and overly complicated way
Uhm, the latter lends itself far more to your concerns. People can take gobbledygook and twist it into anything they want.

[Anonymous No.10737470]

I personally find when I'm having a hard time with Deleuze that it gets me really pissed off and I renounce the work out of a personal vendetta rather than any real opinion I have about what's being written. I think a lot of people here who get pissed in a similar way should ask themselves if they really put in an effort before tossing the thing away and deciding that something was the indisputable truth.

[Anonymous No.10737473]

>>10737447
>>10737453
Aristotle was one of the first writers to divide his writings into esoteric and exoteric. Yes, people translate the esoteric parts as clearly as they can, but things in that category were often written with a complete disregard for simplicity.

[Anonymous No.10737474]

>>10737448
>Meanwhile, I own this world.
You're an obese, ugly, manlet and probably a virgin. At least 3 of these are correct and apply to you.

[Anonymous No.10737476]

>>10737461
Nigger, even the IEP blatantly states that Capitalism and Schizophrenia is notoriously obscurantist. I suppose it could have merit if Deleuze wanted to imitate the ramblings of a madman and force people to sift through it to find a kernel of truth.

[Anonymous No.10737488]

>>10737468
Yeah that's true. Most of the shit churned out in humanities departments that deal with 20th cent theorists is riddled with misunderstandings and abuses of people like Deleuze and Foucault. I don't think saying that obscure writing 'lends itself far more' is correct, though. Look at the impact that Jordan Peterson is having on public opinion vs. what a whitepaper about Derrida might have. The former could impact presidential voting patterns. The latter is just another shitty drop in a shitty ocean.

[Anonymous No.10737499]

>>10737470
I think people are rightfully mad when they read 700 pages of what is basically a flawed theory on schizophrenia, which we now know is a brain disorder.

[Anonymous No.10737506]

>>10737488
Yeah, what would we do without Derrida?

[Anonymous No.10737507]

>>10737488
Jordan Peterson has touched a real problem in society, without coming across as a complete crsnk. Whether his solutions are good or not is a different question.

[Anonymous No.10737525]

>>10737499
>hurr durr old theories are canceled once medicine proves that it's all just chemicals

it's not an attempt to understand schizophrenia as something besides a brain disorder. it's to say that the way the disorder functions can show us something about how our society functions.

[Anonymous No.10737532]

>>10737499
Why exactly did he concern himself with schizophrenia? Did he actually mean the mental illness or is it jsut some term he used for something else?

[Anonymous No.10737535]

It is not the slumber of reason that engenders monsters, but vigilant and insomniac rationality.

[Anonymous No.10737541]

>>10737507
>Jordan Peterson has touched

you've learned well from him that you can get through to simpletons by making everything black and white. peterson is capitalizing on a major narrative of the disenfranchised middle class. he's not 'touching' on anything. and he doesn't aggravate people because he's careful not to make anyone feel ignorant (the pejorative is really revealing, what are you 12?). no one wants to work for their knowledge, because that's what the cucks in their ivory towers do. we want things simple and clean and sugary.

[Anonymous No.10737542]

>>10737535
Thanks, Gilles.

Still, a better account of the Schreber case than "muh repressed homosexuality."

[Anonymous No.10737546]

>>10737535
wtf I love Deleuze now

[Anonymous No.10737549]

>>10737317
maybe they need to read Kant again and stop sperging out.

[Anonymous No.10737558]

>>10737541
>no one wants to work for their knowledge, because that's what the cucks in their ivory towers do.

Right, it's not as if many influential philosophers (Marx, Schopenhauer) ranted against "establishment" thinkers because they weren't allowed a place in there.

[Anonymous No.10737569]

>>10737558
No one "disallowed" Schopenhauer from anything, he quit the University of Berlin of his own volition because Hegel was speaking to a packed house while he was luck to have five attendees at a lecture

[Anonymous No.10737577]

>>10737558
establishment academics deserve to be raked over the coals just as much as demagogues like peterson. conformism is the enemy.

[Anonymous No.10737601]

>>10737577
Conformism is biologically programmed human behaviour, you lefty tit.

[Anonymous No.10737607]

>>10737601
i think we're done here

[Anonymous No.10737611]

>>10737601
wtf I love Rick and Morty now

[Anonymous No.10737612]

>>10737607
>Claim AIDS is fake and just a ploy of capitalism to target homosexuals, blacks, and drug addicts
>die of AIDS
what did he mean by this?

[Anonymous No.10737624]

>>10737601
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0dM6j7pzQA

[Anonymous No.10737633]

>>10737607
>humans are not biologically and evolutionarily inclined towards conformity
Fucking lefty. This is why your ideas always lead to tens of million dead in peacetime. You deny and neglect human nature.

[Anonymous No.10737634]

>>10737607
yeah cause you guys disperse like cockroaches whenever anybody brings up actual measurable results, because they contradict your ideology

[Anonymous No.10737682]

>>10737634
>>10737633
i look forward to the day when the technocrats actually try to legalize statistics. y'all really make me giggle sometimes.

hitler was the most calculating, rational, formulaic dictator who ever lived by the by. deathcamps were kept in check with major efforts in bookkeeping and the Nazi regime was undergirded by state of the art technological and medical research. something to keep in mind.

[Anonymous No.10737692]

>>10737283
Is this what schizophrenia looks like?

[Anonymous No.10737693]

>>10737682
Hitler didn't even know death camps existed. There is no evidence for it.

[Anonymous No.10737695]

>>10737682
see your reply here isn't even vaguely related to what we said lol

[Anonymous No.10737779]

>>10737695
yes it is. read again. and think.
>>10737693
your world must be so very tiny

goodnight lads

[Anonymous No.10737786]

>>10737330
the chad deleuze scholar

[Anonymous No.10737812]

>>10737453
>Deleuze and co. are without merit but the way they write is insane
this is correct insofar as D&G's prose is partially inspired by the schizo writing of Artaud, Schreber, Nerval and others

[Anonymous No.10737880]

>>10737439

this means alejandro manzoni rip off the penis book of Dante, and Bombo from the "monster allergy" show, make a movie of it
ya know?

[Anonymous No.10737892]

>>10737611
I'm not going to completely assume how you intended that, but what the post you responded to you is saying is far more substantial and less judgmental than you likely think it is and you should seriously think about it without the lens you seem to be viewing it through.

[Anonymous No.10737901]

>>10737025
The sentence full of retarded presumptions and artificial ballast. He's basically larping in his own fantasy world.

[Anonymous No.10738153]

>>10737025
So post-structuralism essentially embodied the increasingly verbose meme?

[Anonymous No.10738155]

>>10737612
that he was right!

[Anonymous No.10738961]

>>10737459
Reality doesn't exist. Go back to /pol/, 'race realist'.

[Anonymous No.10738965]

>>10737467
Nope. Project harder, illiterate.
Reading 'le classix xDDDDD' doesn't make you well-read. You aren't even aware of scholarship. You're a basic bitch and read like a basic bitch.
>>10737474
Project harder.
>>10737476
Truth doesn't exist. try harder, dumbass.

[Anonymous No.10738970]

>>10737499
>LE SCIENCE XDDDDDD DAE KARL OF SAGON???
>>10737601
DAE LE SCIENCE PROVE LE NIGGER DUMB?!?! XDDDDDD RIG AND MORDY XDDDDD

[Anonymous No.10738977]

>>10737633
Human nature doesn't exist. Try again, colonist. Or just die, up to you.
>>10737634
DAE LE OBJECTIVE FAX??!?!?! XDDDDDD RIG AND MORDY XDDDDD

[Anonymous No.10738991]

>>10738977
you're a remarkably shit poster

[Anonymous No.10739004]

>>10738991
MUH
WHITE
CIVI
LI
ZA
SHUUUUUUUUN

[Anonymous No.10739017]

>>10737317
Is this like ought is distinction powered by mescaline?

[Anonymous No.10739019]

>>10737232
because he was educated this way

[Anonymous No.10739099]

>>10737025
>School changes people
>changes people's subjectification

so doesn't the weather. Also various biology including of subjectificationers and other sorts of subjectificationees. A lair of purity doesn't exist in our consciousness that isn't bound to both conditions and memories of their variability. The idea that a coherent grouping of a reality can be dominating is as ridiculous as the idea that you can group reality coherently without attempting to make some personal issue clear. We might be able to objectively define a set of variables for coming up with an interesting attempt at some arguable definition, but we won't have an accurate sense of where new language and new subectication comes from until it arises, not because it is completely determined by knowable sets of data that we have of yet to define either. The problem isn't about a dominating villainy, or at least it isn't any more in the digital age. The type of communication that exists has always been directly connected to environmental, economic, political, and cultural conditions, but how they imprint on individuals moment to moment, generation to generation is also as important in determining what a subjective experience of a dominating reality actually consists of in the brain and body.

This reads like a 14 year old christian girl's essay on why video games make boys violent. Does he ever plan to write YA?

[Anonymous No.10739120]

>>10737025
Why did you use such a simple passage to try and make this argument?

[Anonymous No.10739131]

>>10739004
I also feel that everyone is worth the same.

[Anonymous No.10739138]

Ah - ah, you think that's hard? Try this, kid.
>we are all handymen: each with his little machines. For every organ-machine, an energy-machine: all the time, flows and interruptions. Judge Schreber has sunbeams in his ass. A solar anus. And rest assured that it works: Judge Schreber feels something, produces something, and is capable of explaining the process theoretically. Something is produced: the effects of a machine, not mere metaphors.

[Anonymous No.10739142]

>>10737535
>vigilant and insomniac rationality.

Rationality implies scepticism too, though. And knowing what you can't know or don't know gives you reason enough to relax. This statement would work better as a diagnosis for Ration Al, the war time thief of war rations - but those days are gone and what good is it to talk of Al now other than to share a laugh and gossip before the roast is done.

[Anonymous No.10739150]

>>10737448
based

[Anonymous No.10739480]

>>10738970
>DAE LE SCIENCE PROVE LE NIGGER DUMB?!?! XDDDDDD RIG AND MORDY XDDDDD
You type like an SRS redditor.

[Anonymous No.10740283]

>>10739480
To mock you, an actual plebbitor

[Anonymous No.10740358]

>>10738977
>Human nature doesn't exist. Try again, colonist. Or just die, up to you.
Modern science prices you wrong. Your personality and traits are all derived from the genes of your ancestors, particularly your parents. Put down the mopy literature and read some science.

[Anonymous No.10740438]

>>10739138
This isn't difficult if you've read Memoirs of My Nervous Illness (and get the Bataille reference).

[Anonymous No.10740480]

>>10737455
>>10737448
This is the same guy who spergs out in every single philosophy thread

[Anonymous No.10740985]

>>10740358
Science is invalid. Try again, retard. Or just neck yourself.
hurr durr its le writte so iz le trooo
>MUH FUGGIN WHITE ANSISTERS!!!!!
>>10740480
Because I'm the only one actually educated on this shithole board.

[Anonymous No.10741255]

>>10740985
Modern science is what allows you type your faggy soyboy opinions and present them to the whole world. Indeed, science was a mistake.

[Anonymous No.10741276]

>>10740985
>actually educated
are you using this as code for 'brainwashed by post-war sociology'

[Anonymous No.10741299]

>>10740985
>Because I'm the only one actually educated on this shithole board.
>I got spoonfed my opinions by continental philosophers and sociologists, I'm shoo smurt

[Anonymous No.10741310]

>>10737448
>humanities soyboy telling people they don't understand science
Top kek.

[Anonymous No.10741353]

>>10737025
If English is your native language and you find that hard to understand you are pathetic.

[Anonymous No.10741695]

itt: pleb stories

>chilling with friends
>put morton feldman's second string quartet
>confront myself and my self (as an ontological historical entity) with the mirror of atonality (as a mirror is not an empathic but a reflexive entity, alien to the space and time it reflects and only existing by itself in relation to the other) and realize the boundaries of human thought, comprehension and consciousness
>reach rational ecstasy
>pleb friend gets up and says "what is this silence shit, lmao, put some nirvana"
>get angry at their rockist subaltern consumption conditioned by the structures of power of the imperialist white economies, but contain it
>calm myself down by remembering quotes from finnegans wake, my favorite book since i was a teenager
>mfw can't express myself because i'm a spectator in the society of spectacle

"It is not the slumber of reason which engenders monsters, but vigilant and insomniac rationality. - Gilles Deleuze" - ~Astigmata

[Anonymous No.10741882]

>>10741255
Not an argument.
>>10741276
>>10741299
>>10741310
Samefag.

[Anonymous No.10741909]

>>10741695
You forgot the pic.