/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.10701006]

>leave blavatsky to me

[Anonymous No.10701017]

who is this?

[Anonymous No.10701018]

>>10701006
>leave being the Saint Paul to Hitler's Jesus to me

[Anonymous No.10701044]

[Anonymous No.10701049]

[Anonymous No.10701058]

>>10701017
Rene Guenon, critic extraordinaire.

For all of his eloquence and criticism of others, he doesn't put forth very convincing arguments for his own views.

>>10701006
I'd put Guenon on a similar level to Blavatsky. Both had mostly ridiculous ideas, but were interesting to read. Blavatsky was more creative, but Guenon was more philosophical (although that's not saying much).

[Anonymous No.10701062]

>>10701058
guenon makes much more profound criticisms of modernity. but when he ends it all with, AND THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE TO BE INITIATED badoom-pshh, it loses a little bit of its zip

[Anonymous No.10701082]

>>10701062
Yup, although it didn't seem like he had spent much time studying modern philosophy. From what I remember he refers to modern philosophers as an aggregate. For someone who has actually studied modern philosophy, that would make 0 sense.

And I'm still struggling to figure out what he was talking about with all this initiation junk. How are we supposed to be initiated? It's clear that he thought that practically all initiation is not "authentic". How can one assess the authenticity? Will I know when I start adopting Guenon's views on every subject?

[Anonymous No.10701105]

>>10701082
are you familiar with baudrillard at all? his ideas of simulacrum and simulation? guenon is saying something like metaphysical knowledge, passed down through tradition is the only way to avoid inauthenticity. he believes that at the heart of all still-standing major traditions is the same metaphysics which can only be transferred through the orthodox practices found in those same traditions—you can't get to the good stuff without the initiation. i don't think he'd rule out someone coming to the realization themselves, only that it would be nearly or practically impossible. he dismisses the occult, protestant, modern religions more or less as simulations in baudrillard's sense

[Anonymous No.10701147]

> OP made this post in another thread and now he's making a thread about it

Guenon doesn't seem that bad, definitely not Blatvatsky tier, although I haven't read too deeply into him.

I think his argument that metaphysics transcends language and therefore cannot be contained by any one tradition is compelling. He helps people get back into religion by telling them that it's not important that all of the historic facts don't add up, because being 100% historically accurate is not what gives you access to the universal. I can definitely see Guenon converting to Islam without believing that the Quran is the word of God. Guenon allows you to take your religion seriously without taking everything in that religion seriously.

That said, I don't really get the initiation thing. Why does access to the universal have to be through a tradition passed down, rather than personal revelations? I don't get this and when you look at the founding of traditions/religions, it's generally some dude who gets mystical revelations and then starts the initiatic order. But why would a contemporary decide to partake in that tradition, since the founder doesn't seem to have a teacher?

[Anonymous No.10701198]

since no one really seems to know what they're talking about in this thread, i'm going to dump some info on guenon. here is the 'guenon' entry from hannegraaf's dictionary of gnosticism

1/4

[Anonymous No.10701202]

>>10701198
2/4

[Anonymous No.10701207]

>>10701202
3/4

[Anonymous No.10701212]

>>10701207
4/4

[Anonymous No.10701218]

this is the subsection on traditionalism within the 'tradition' entry in hannegraaf's dictionary
1/3

[Anonymous No.10701223]

>>10701218
2/3

[Anonymous No.10701227]

>>10701198
>hannegraaf's
isn't he a modernist pleb?

[Anonymous No.10701235]

>>10701223
3/3
>>10701227
depends what you want him. for history and contextualization, i think he's as good as anyone

[Anonymous No.10701241]

here's the intro to western sufism from rawlinson's 'enlightened masters'—ill post a different link another anon found if i can find it about guenon, nasr and the neocon establishment

1/4

[Anonymous No.10701246]

>>10701241
2/4

[Anonymous No.10701257]

>>10701246
3/4

[Anonymous No.10701262]

>>10701257
4/4

here's the article i mentioned:
http://wahidazal.blogspot.com/2017/08/shills-spooks-and-sufis-in-service-of.html

it's a little different than the original with some added context, but it's not hard to find the original as well

[Anonymous No.10701267]

here's the entry on guenon in the same rawlinson book

1/4

also, here's some videos of prince charles on traditionalism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnnXKmGQ4nI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zITpU225cG4

[Anonymous No.10701270]

>>10701267
2/4

[Anonymous No.10701273]

>>10701270
3/4
sorry for all the bumps, this is the last thing

[Anonymous No.10701279]

>>10701273

[Anonymous No.10701369]

>>10701147
Because even in better times, those who could have high level spiritual realizations by their own self were a tiny minority, he never excludes this but doesnt talk about it much.

To have a high level spiritual initiation without a particular Tradition to initiate you, you literally have to be either a prophet chosen by God or a divine being yourself...

He wrote a while ago, and was a bit too optimistic. Valid initiatory organizations nowadays are about as rare as somebody having spiritual realizations all by themselves was in the past

[Anonymous No.10701375]

>>10701369
i think that's basically why evola takes it in the direction he does

[Anonymous No.10701381]

>>10701279
>>10701273
>>10701270
>>10701267
>>10701262
>>10701257
>>10701246
>>10701241
>>10701235
>>10701223
>>10701218
>>10701212
>>10701207
>>10701202
>>10701198
didn't read lol

[Anonymous No.10701391]

>>10701369
Metaphysics is the logos of hierarchy which can be summed up by the concept of succession. Respect your elders. They are older. They know better.

[Anonymous No.10701401]

>>10701391
Elders nowadays certainly do not know better

[Anonymous No.10701414]

>>10701401
>t. never gonna make it

[Anonymous No.10701420]

>>10701414
t. thinks baby boomers will help him achieve a spiritual awakening

[Anonymous No.10701456]

>>10701006
I think Müller shat on Blavatsky to greater effect

>Claim to have super secret esoteric Buddhist text from some person from somewhere in the Himalayas
>Top expert in Buddhism and Sanskrit looks at it and says its obviously bogus
>Mystics get buttflusteted

[Anonymous No.10701475]

>>10701420
If you're a millenial, then you're even deeper in modernity than the average boomer. But I am not here to argue. I just think that traditional metaphysics is based off a concept of genesis (same root word as genetic) that implies historical succession and inheritance and re-gifting existence to the next generation. It's a very rootless cosmopolitan postmodern thing to presume we are totally existentially free of contingency and historicity and that we are smarter than our elders and we should only worry about our own stuff.

[Anonymous No.10701505]

>>10701475
I dont see how this post is relevant, and I dont think you know what Traditional metaphysics is

Respecting the average "elder" today is retarded, you can't fix a messed up civilization by respecting the people who created it.

[Anonymous No.10701528]

>>10701505
Initiation is primarily a way of transitioning from childhood to adulthood. If you can't see how a notion of lineage and succession comensurate with that then I think you have an immense failure of vision.

Not to mention, lol @ ur >wahhhh muh baby boomers ruined everything!

You really think the average person, boomer or otherwise, has any power or control over our global situation? All you're doing is scapegoating and other-izing so you can have a unique and edgy identity.

Grow up, kiddo.

[Anonymous No.10701536]

>>10701505
Yeah but if you're reactionary and anti-boomer you're only respect an even older generation. There's still the need and respect for hierarchy.

[Anonymous No.10701540]

>>10701528
t. doesn't know what Traditional initiation is

and no, I dont. Stop arguing against your imagination

[Anonymous No.10701550]

>>10701536
Of course, but I never implied or said anything that contradicts that

[Anonymous No.10701564]

>>10701540
>t. so deep in the kali yuga he will argue definitions of initiation without having been initiated himself

[Anonymous No.10701582]

>>10701564
The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name
-Confucius

[Anonymous No.10701617]

>>10701582
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

[Anonymous No.10701671]

>>10701375
>>10701369
I think I read somewhere that because it's the kali yuga, it's easier to initiate yourself than ever before if you possess the drive. Evola's recommendation of riding the tiger can be seen as an auto-initiatic experience.

[Anonymous No.10701682]

>>10701058
A lot of what Guenon wrote is actually justified by eastern texts themselves but Blavatsky just threw a bunch of random shit into the melting pot without rhyme or reason and tried to dress it up with esotericism.

[Anonymous No.10701693]

>>10701617
You will never know the true names if you think "initiation" is some desacralized coming-of-age right of passage to be come an adult

Thats why understanding what Traditional initiation is is important, its the first step

[Anonymous No.10701724]

>>10701198
>tfw the ultimate bane of stem-fags was a stem-fag in his youth

[Anonymous No.10701796]

>>10701693
You will never know the names of the naming if you refuse to receive the names given by those who have gone before. Coming of age is one aspect of initiation. Not all of it but certainly part of it.

[Anonymous No.10702088]

I’ve only read Guenon’s ITTSOFTHD and I’m wanting to delve further into metaphysics but not sure where to go next. I’ve just started reading Sri Sankaracharya’s commentary on the Bhagavad Gita. What else can I into to get a better understanding?

[Anonymous No.10702174]

>>10702088

[Anonymous No.10702179]

>>10701082
he has a book called perspectives on initiation deaing with that subject

[Anonymous No.10702188]

>>10701212
LMAO i love how gurdjieff is the next entry

[Anonymous No.10702195]

>>10702188
why

[Anonymous No.10702202]

>>10701475
>3 A.M. is really dark
>therefore 6 A.M. must be even darker
lmaoing at your logic right now

[Anonymous No.10702211]

>>10702195
he's a major quack, it's funny to see him put side by side with someone the caliber of guenon

[Anonymous No.10702220]

>>10702202
Yugas last immense stretches of time. You think we're near the end?

[Anonymous No.10702224]

>>10702211
yeah, although i think a lot of people would say the same of guenon

[Anonymous No.10702227]

>>10702088
I have some problems understanding what he even means by metaphysics, if I recall correctly he says that it is beyond mere logic and rationality and must be understood with ''intuition of the intelligence''.

[Anonymous No.10702233]

>>10702220
Kali Yuga is close to the end, yes

[Anonymous No.10702239]

>>10702211
>guenon isn't a hack but Gurdjieff is
Get a load of this guy

[Anonymous No.10702241]

>>10702224
good thing truth isn't a democracy

[Anonymous No.10702298]

>>10702233
I mean, if you go by the actual calculations of the Hindus, I think we still have something like a couple hundred thousand years left.

[Anonymous No.10702313]

>>10702227
The piano ruins the whole painting, it makes me want to vomit

[Anonymous No.10702561]

>>10702088

By delving more into 'metaphysics' in the Trad meaning of the term there is really just the option of reading more Trad analysis of metaphysics (e.g. guenon's Man and his becoming+symbolism of cross+multiple states, also Coomaraswamy) or studying other eastern texts themselves.

I'm the dude who recommended Adi Shankara to you in the other thread. His commentaries are good but are very heady and take a long time to read. If you want some texts that are shorter and get to the point faster maybe I'd recommend Tao Te Ching, Zhuangzi, Ashtavakra Gita, Yoga Sutras, any of the major Buddhist sutras like Heart, Diamond, Lotus etc. If you are interested in non-dualism specifically but Adi Shankara seems too dry there are also Kashmir Shaivism texts like the Shiva sutras etc.

[Anonymous No.10702600]

>>10702088
Read Plotinus.

[Anonymous No.10702630]

>>10702298
No, those numbers were symbolic

[Anonymous No.10702633]

>>10702630
do you unironically believe in 'ages' and shit? fucking why

[Anonymous No.10702637]

>>10702630
Ok, let's say they are. How then can you or anyone know when the Kali Yuga will actually end? For all we know it might be even LONGER than that "symbolic" number.

[Anonymous No.10702648]

>>10702633
Not him, but time is qualitative as much as it is quantitative. There are different qualities inhering in different periods. Ages are real.

[Anonymous No.10702658]

>>10702648
in terms of retroactively applying names to them, not in any ontologically real way...

[Anonymous No.10702670]

>>10702637
Because one who is knowledgeable on the subject can tell... duh

Its just another cycle, and can be predicted like all others by those who are knowledgeable on the subject

Its like asking how scientists "know" that the sun will eventually turn into a red giant and then blow up or whatever

[Anonymous No.10702684]

>>10702648
>>10702670
>>>/x/

[Anonymous No.10702693]

>>10702670
>Because one who is knowledgeable on the subject can tell... duh
There's a ton of divergent opinions on this though...all by knowledgeable people.
>>10702684
nice, good post

[Anonymous No.10702696]

>>10702684
I would go there if hte level of discussion was more intelligent, they are the /lit/ equivalent of young adult fiction readers

Charcoal burners and neo spiritualists

[Anonymous No.10702703]

>>10702693
>There's a ton of divergent opinions on this though...all by knowledgeable people.
False

[Anonymous No.10702720]

>>10702703
Ok, you're obviously not serious.

[Anonymous No.10702731]

>>10702720
All actual Traditionalists agree on this subject, you are obviously ignorant.

[Anonymous No.10702740]

>ITT: /pol/babies mistake fanciful mystics for serious philosophers

[Anonymous No.10702743]

>>10702731
By "Traditionalists" do you mean the people directly or indirectly influenced by Guenon. It could be, I haven't read all of them. But if you mean all the authentic representatives of Hinduism (the Yugas are a Hindu theory) then you're wrong. I still think you're trolling me, though.

[Anonymous No.10702753]

>>10702740
His criticism of post Cartesian philosophy and "scientism" is damn good, though.

[Anonymous No.10702759]

>>10702743
Tell me about these "authentic representatives of Hinduism", most Hindus known in the west and even most popular ones in India are full of shit

Also, its not just a Hindu theory, every tradition speaks of the ages and the cycles. The Hindu terminology is just used more often because it is less confusing I guess

[Anonymous No.10702763]

What are some real traditions today with a *true* initiation then?

[Anonymous No.10702766]

>>10702211
>>10702239

Gurdjieff is definitely unconventional but I think Guenon was wrong to entirely write him off. The man wasn't infallible and sometimes would change his mind as evinced by Marco Pallis and Evola influencing him to eventually consider Buddhism a legitimate tradition as opposed to his earlier view that it was basically an anti-traditional kshatriya revolt against the brahmins. It's true that Gurdjieff was a known womanizer, heavy drinker, manipulative, somewhat of an self-aggrandizer etc but exhibiting unwholesome behaviors and personality traits is not mutually exclusive with realizing/receiving some genuinely valuable teaching and wanting to pass it to others.

Gurdjieff traveled throughout central Asia which is full of Sufis, Ismailis, and all sorts of small gnostic/neoplatonist/buddhist/manichean/esoteric islamic influenced sects and groups. It's not hard to imagine that he could have come into contact and been initiated into various groups. Not to mention that a key tenet of Traditionalism is that the metaphysical tradition 'Sanatana Dharma' exists on it's own and that anyone (however rare this might be in practice and despite initiation being much more preferable and reliable) is theoretically capable of tuning into it like a radio station.

Even though Gurdjieff was not 'Traditional' I think that it's fair to judge that however flawed his teachings were when compared to established religions that they were in part derived from metaphysical principles and that his teachings were just a 19th-century Armenian-Greeks idiosyncratic way of understanding them. It's noteworthy that a non-insignificant group of people were heavily influenced by him and spoke of his teachings as life-changing and later went on to achieve major successes like Frank Lloyd Wright for example. Pic related is a book considering Gurdjieff as a part of Tradition which was written by a close friend and associate of Guenon who spent time with him in Egypt.

Evola also wrote approvingly of Gurdjieff.

https://www.counter-currents.com/2011/08/mr-gurdjieff/

[Anonymous No.10702768]

>>10702763
Sufi and Hermetic orders that are secret and that nobody knows about

[Anonymous No.10702772]

>>10702561
Thanks again mate. Yes, I am particularly interested in nondualism. I think I will stick to finishing Adi Shankara’s commentary. Although the explanations are heavy they’re definitely valuable and I am learning a lot. I’m screen shotting these texts for later c:

[Anonymous No.10702775]

>>10702759
>Tell me about these "authentic representatives of Hinduism"
Dude, there's a lot of them.
>Also, its not just a Hindu theory, every tradition speaks of the ages and the cycles
Ok, but we were specifically discussing the Hindu theory and the numbers they give.

I think you've gravely misunderstood the Traditionalists. The only thing universal to all the Traditions is metaphysics, i.e. pure knowledge. Cosmological questions are disputed and disagreed upon by many.

[Anonymous No.10702783]

>>10702763
Vedanta

[Anonymous No.10702789]

>>10702766
which ideas of gurdjieff's do you find valuable

[Anonymous No.10702805]

>>10702740
>When you've been memed by a Manchurian hentai community to place more value in people who prefer to quibble over semantics and theories of knowledge instead of placing value in actual direct knowledge and the accompanying understanding of higher states

[Anonymous No.10702815]

>>10701006
>Leave Snoke to me

[Anonymous No.10702818]

>>10702766
Uh, have you ever read Gurdjieff? He was
>an atomist
>philosphical materialist
>overly emphasized mere psychology
>hypnotist
>believed the goal of "spiritual" ascesis was opening up the subconscious
>taught a system aimed at "developing man's latent powers"
>was a syncretist
>taught a method that was primarily "experimental" (i.e. he didn't actually know what he was doing)
>believed in Cartesian mechanism
etc. he literally hits all the red flags

[Anonymous No.10702829]

>>10702818
guenon's stuff about psychoanalysis as counter-intitiation is something i'd never heard before

[Anonymous No.10702831]

>>10702561
I was going to read pic related seeing as I practice Iyengar Yoga everyday.

[Anonymous No.10702838]

>>10702829
It makes sense since almost all traditions make a distinction between spiritual and psychic, but psychoanalysis reduced everything to psyche.

[Anonymous No.10702839]

>>10702775
Knowledge of metaphysics entails knowledge of cycles

All traditions agree on the basics at least on the esoteric level, Hesoid, the historical ancient Hindus and Aztects(i think) all said they were in the last and most degenerate age

[Anonymous No.10702847]

>>10702831
why do you practice yoga (genuinely curious)

[Anonymous No.10702853]

>>10702839
Cosmology is an application of metaphysics, hence why people agree on the "basics". When it comes to details there is a ton of divergence. You can't just handwave that fact away.

[Anonymous No.10702861]

>>10702853
Your assertions mean nothing. There is no divergence on the fact that the Kali Yuga is going to end in the next few thousand years among actual Traditionalists

[Anonymous No.10702873]

>>10702805
How do you actually do that? you have thousands on the internet claiming that kind of things but if you listen to them then it's obvious that they are full of shit, if you ask most serious practitionners they will pretty much admit never having experienced something and will scold anyone claiming among them claiming otherwise as crazy, deluded or attention-seeking except maybe for some legendary monks or gurus who look scammy or just merely wise anyway.

[Anonymous No.10702875]

>>10702831
Good book

[Anonymous No.10702878]

>>10702861
>among actual Traditionalists
Again, do you mean people directly/indirectly influenced by Guenon, or do you include authentic representatives of the Hindu tradition? In any case, if you're so confident about this "fact" you should be able to demonstrate it without appeal to authority.

[Anonymous No.10702883]

>>10702818
He was actually a monist.

If all reality is one substance it doesn't matter whether you call that substance matter or idea.

[Anonymous No.10702890]

>>10702789
Gurdjieff intended for his written works to be the main vessel for his teachings after he had passed away. I haven't read them but have read about him and what they entail.mHis idea of most people being in a state of living sleep and people needing to undergo work/effort to reach an awakened state is paralleled in many traditions included Buddhism.

A big focus of his ideas was being conscious at each moment, not wasting time with day-dreaming and distractions. This is a way to reach a state of transcendence that is also taught in many Traditions.

Whether you are pursing the 'Work' of the fourth way, whether you are assiduously attempting to follow the 8-fold path by regulating every thought and not letting yourself being attached to anything, whether you are taking care to remain aware at every moment that atman=brahman and that the illusion of individuality is just the interplay of the three gunas; the end result for all of them is a roughly similar blissful state where you exist solely in the moment, where you concern yourself with things of a higher nature and are not concerned with contingent matters, where you can think exceptionally clearly, where you feel a sense of timelessness and equanimity etc.

[Anonymous No.10702897]

>>10702883
no no no

[Anonymous No.10702910]

>>10702818
He does hit most of the red flags and so it's no surprise that Guenon didn't like him but as I detailed in this post >>10702890 despite all that he was onto something, however convoluted and adjusted to modernist European sensibilities his teaching of it was.

[Anonymous No.10702912]

>>10702847
Ultimately to achieve moksha. But on a temporal level I do it to have a healthy and balanced body. It also is hugely beneficial in regards to mental health too. Being able to focus on the breath and to let go has practically cured me of any anxiety/depression I had in the past

[Anonymous No.10702915]

>>10702818
Actually his "goal" isn't stated openly in any books. There is an oral component to the teaching which you would have to receive from a teacher.

The teacher would show you how to detach from your normal feeling of "I" and realise the Self. The psychological ideas are there to help you see your identifications/attachments to your normal false feeling of self/ego. For example the first area they focus on is trying to see lying in yourself. We lie to ourselves all the time but don't see it. This is one way our false feeling of being a concrete self is maintained and it is through seeing how we do this that we can become free from this false state and realize our primordial state which is talked about in other traditions.

[Anonymous No.10702923]

>>10702912
how should i start

[Anonymous No.10702929]

>>10702897
Afraid so.

[Anonymous No.10702941]

>>10702878
You yet again say "authentic representatives" as if it means something, the average "well respected" Hindu is no more valid a representative of Hindu as a Mega Church pastor is of Traditional christianity. Finding an actually authentic representative requires an ability to differentiate them from all the bullshiters, and the authentic ones are probably not very popular. False and ignorant "Brahmins" are a hallmark of the Kali Yuga

I cannot demonstrate algebra to somebody who doesn't know numbers, I cannot demonstrate basics of cycles to people who dont know basic Traditionalism

Im done wasting my time with you, go read about it

[Anonymous No.10702951]

>>10702923
Find a local class (preferably Iyengar style) and read pic related

[Anonymous No.10702954]

>>10702818
The goal according to the gurdjieff people I have interacted with is stripping away of falseness in oneself to become more "essence", to be free from identifications with imaginary views of ourself, to be our real self and not the false personality which is constructed by life and which is part of what keeps us "asleep". in other words prying purusha away from prakriti to achieve kaivalya (isolation from prakriti).

[Anonymous No.10702968]

>>10702883
Monism isn't traditional. Tradition is non-dual or a metaphysics of Unity (same thing, different words). And he was a materialist. Read what he has to say about "atoms of God".
>>10702890
>A big focus of his ideas was being conscious at each moment
So he was just a new age mindfulness meditation guy but with wild armenian antics.
>I haven't read them but have read about him
That's your problem.
>I haven't read them but have read about him
he doesn't teach it as a way to reach transcendence. He teaches awareness for it's own sake. It's just developing a muscle for the sake of developing a muscle. Hence his emphasis on "awakening man's latent powers".
>I haven't read them but have read about him
Buddhist ascesis has higher stages and attainments that Gurdjieff lacks. Gurdjieff is basically teaching people (ineffectively, since none of his students seemed to have siginifcantly benefited from his teaching) how to acquire various "siddhis"

[Anonymous No.10702989]

>>10702923

Hatha yoga is just the physical component and there are other types such as Raja Yoga, Karma Yoga etc that revolve around mental regulation and spiritual practices that are mentioned throughout Hindu texts. 99% of the time when people in the west used the word Yoga they mean Hatha. These types and Hatha Yoga complement each other though and you can practice multiple types at once. If you want to read about the non-Hatha types Swami Vivikananda wrote some pretty good books about them.

If you want to learn Hatha yoga you don't need to find some esoteric group to initiate you, most of the typical western yoga groups attended by yuppies and hippies get most of the basics right (it's hard not too) and as long as you ignore the new-agey ignorant statements they sometimes make about Hindu doctrines it's not a bad way to learn yoga. There are often decent and intelligent people who attend yoga classes just like how the average person who goes to a meditation retreat is often more thoughtful and interesting then someone how just likes sports/tv and going to bars.

[Anonymous No.10702990]

>>10702954
>to become more "essence"
This is interpreted exclusively in psychological terms.
>authentic representatives
I'm talking about the actual "classic" teachers of the tradition, not modern people. There are books written precisely on this topic.
>Im done wasting my time with you, go read about it
I would ask you to do the same.
>>10702915
>There is an oral component to the teaching which you would have to receive from a teacher.
There really isn't. I've been involved with them, and they are hopelessly clueless about their own "system".

[Anonymous No.10702998]

>>10702990
>authentic representatives
I'm talking about the actual "classic" teachers of the tradition, not modern people. There are books written precisely on this topic.
>Im done wasting my time with you, go read about it
I would ask you to do the same.
oops meant for
>>10702941

[Anonymous No.10703004]

>>10702968
You seem to have a bone to pick.

His main goal was at first to help people balance the three gunas or centres as he calls them, which is done through self remembering, a yogic practice which involves holding back 3/4 of one's attention at all times. Then by self observation in this state, to see, with real seeing, identifications and break them down.

[Anonymous No.10703016]

>>10702990
You seem like you got burnt by them.

Essence isn't "part of the psychology", what you are thinking of is called personality in the work.

[Anonymous No.10703025]

>>10703004
Ok, go join a Gurdjieff Foundation group and see for yourself. Gurdjieff Foundation was founded by Madame De Salzmann and Lord Pentland, so it's "authentic" as a Gurdjieff teaching as you will ever find. Also if you're the guy who hasn't read his books, then read his books and make up your own mind.

[Anonymous No.10703032]

>>10702990
A lot of them are overly influenced by ouspensky who admitted at the end of his life he was full of shit.

The nyland groups are better and what they are doing is much closer to raja yoga.

[Anonymous No.10703046]

>>10703016
>You seem like you got burnt by them.
No, I simply saw that it was ineffective as a teaching, and based on nothing reliable. I saw people who were there for decades filled with anxiety and cluelessness. It was a sad thing to see. I also saw no evidence that the people running the place knew what they were talking about. They give wildly contradictory answers to people's questions, and are generally very vague. Don't take my word for it. Go try for yourself.

[Anonymous No.10703055]

>>10702968
You seem like you didn't really understand the gurdjieff teaching.

Awareness isn't just developed as a muscle.

A lot of what you are saying is from the internet written by people who are hostile to the work for one reason or other and isn't in line with anything I have encountered in real life.

[Anonymous No.10703068]

>>10703055
>A lot of what you are saying is from the internet written by people who are hostile to the work for one reason or other and isn't in line with anything I have encountered in real life.
It's from reading the books and from experiencing. I don't read online gossip. In practice that is what I have found it to be, and his books support that view, imo.

[Anonymous No.10703072]

>>10703068
Well what's the alternative

[Anonymous No.10703089]

>>10703032
>ouspensky who admitted at the end of his life he was full of shit.
sauce

[Anonymous No.10703093]

>>10702968
I agree that Gurdjieffs teachings and methods were from most angles of consideration convoluted and inferior compared to legitimate traditions but I think it's a little dishonest to write it all off and to stay he was basically a new-agey mindfulness guy. I mean that is an accurate description but to some extent you have to recognize that he was trying to teach people how to realize a higher level of awareness couched in terms that they would understand.

While he goes against most Traditions, the implication of practicing his teaching is not dissimilar to certain eastern practices as I mentioned. I'm not arguing that he should be considered a part of Tradition in a Guenonian sense but there are strong parallels and many people thought his teachings were valuable. Out of all the major Esoteric/Occultist/Theosophy-like groups going on at the time he was one of the ones closest to an eastern teaching while still remaining western and outside of Tradition. Why else would Evola and several other of the Traditionalists hold favorable views of him if he was a charlatan?

Nothings black and white and it's not as simple as everyone is either a legitimate part of Tradition or a complete larper. Guenon himself writes about how the philosophical and the mystical are often partially derived from metaphysics but still would say they were inferior and in certain cases not Traditional, it goes to show though that even if something is flawed it can still be partly rooted in truth and not entirely worthless (if only in the sense that it's meant for those who wouldn't otherwise accept or understand proper Metaphysical teachings).

[Anonymous No.10703115]

>>10702740
Congrats on being retarded

[Anonymous No.10703120]

>>10703072
It depends. What are you after? Do you just want to "develop your latent powers". If that's the case, there are groups that can teach you that more effectively than Gurdjieff groups. From what I saw, people who were there for decades had gained nothing substantial. Do you want "transcendence" or effective spiritual realization? Only hope for that really is joining an orthodox spiritual/religious organization, and even then, there are simply no guarantees. What is it you are after?
>he was basically a new-agey mindfulness guy
His contemporary followers definitely are (speaking of Gurdjieff Foundation).
>While he goes against most Traditions, the implication of practicing his teaching is not dissimilar to certain eastern practices as I mentioned.
Only on a superficial observation. I've had exposure to these ideas in depth and in practice. I'm speaking from experience here.
>Why else would Evola and several other of the Traditionalists hold favorable views of him if he was a charlatan?
Evola isn't surprising given the views he puts forward in Ride the Tiger, and I very much doubt Evola spent much time reading about Gurdjieff, he had better things to do. He was also never part of a Gurdjieff group personally, take his views with a grain of salt. Name another traditionalist with a positive view of Gurdjieff, I don't know of any.
>Nothings black and white and it's not as simple as everyone is either a legitimate part of Tradition or a complete larper.
I agree, but Gurdjieff hits way too many redflags. He is literally the polar opposite of Tradition, and he gives an outer appearance of being Traditional, making him even more dangerous. I don't think he is merely pseudo-traditional (his contemporary acolytes are though) he himself was a Counter-Traditional individual. His influence on some of the WORST of the New Age (like Osho Rajneesh) for example is very telling.

[Anonymous No.10703122]

>>10703120
Part of this post is in response to
>>10703093

[Anonymous No.10703127]

>>10703089
The case of ouspensky

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.gurdjieff-bibliography.com/Current/t_seton_case-of-pdo_2004-07-04.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi7mrzRgKnZAhWLjZQKHfI4AnkQFjAAegQIEhAB&usg=AOvVaw2ch4cipvw2bvPogaklSSKE

[Anonymous No.10703165]

>>10702873
>How do you actually do that?

Do what? acquire metaphysical knowledge? familiarly with higher states? reach a state of transcendence?

It isn't all or nothing, there are stages where you will experience wisdom and bliss but don't become permanently enlightened. It's not as thought everyone is talking about some hypothetical higher state that only a small percentage reach. Having a spiritual practice helps. Meditation is a very valuable method for reaching this as is yoga. Reading the eastern texts will help very much as many of them are like a "Dummies guide to metaphysical experiences" and tell you step-for-step how to reach them.

If you want to experience that sort of thing you should combine a practice with studying the texts and the various teachings. Ultimately though where the rubber hits the road is in your own mind, how you live your life, what you spend your time thinking about, and whether you decide to employ/practice/meditate on the teachings you find in the text. If you read eastern texts and then go back to electronic media/daydreams/lazyness/etc without thinking of what you read you will not achieve much. If you actually try to implement what you learn, give up unwholesome activities, acquire a regular meditation/yoga practice, attend a meditation retreat, regularly practice one of the prescribed methods of mental regulation/awareness you will encounter results quickly if you don't fall back into old ways or give up.

[Anonymous No.10703218]

>>10703165
Any recomendations?

[Anonymous No.10703231]

>>10703218
Sri Ramakrishna is good, and revered by Guenon. He primarily promotoes Bhakti if you're interested in that. Most consider it the most appropriate method (bhakti, that is) for our Age.

[Anonymous No.10703277]

>>10703218

If you want to dive in I'd personally recommend attending one of the S.N. Goenka Vipassana meditation retreats. They hold them throughout the year at several dozen locations all around the world and in many areas in Europe/North America. Find one on google near you, they run 100% on donations which is important because that's how you know they're not compromised. It's 100% free including food and room as long as you actually participate and follow the rules. Make sure it's an S.N. Goenka one though because there are some Vipassana groups that are like new-age spas basically.

As for texts I listed some ones here that are good >>10702561. If you haven't read it yet read Guenon's introduction to the study of hindu doctrines which is very helpful for understanding eastern texts. A concise and excellent intro to Buddhism is 'what the Buddha taught' by Walpola Rahula. Once you read those and maybe spent a bit of time reading about the cosmology/gods/doctrines of Hinduism than you are equipped to read most Buddhist/Hindu/Daoist/Confucian/Islamic texts. A few western people like Plotinus are also worth checking out.

They more you read and reflect on what you read and the further you go in your own spiritual practice the more sense it begins to make and the easier it becomes to understand eastern texts.

[Anonymous No.10703304]

READ THIS BOOK!!!

[Anonymous No.10703308]

>>10703304
why? tell me about it, anon

[Anonymous No.10703318]

>>10703308
Tl;dr: The ancient world was pretty cosmopolitan and syncretic hence all these ancient traditions resemblance to one another. Excellent academic work written by someone who "knows" and lists countless sources and footnotes for further study.

[Anonymous No.10703606]

Leave Guenon to me.

[Anonymous No.10703613]

>>10703606
He was Guenon's biggest fanboy though

[Anonymous No.10703755]

>>10703606
>when you write to your idol and claim to have read all his books and he replies with a letter saying you misunderstood basic concepts

http://www.gornahoor.net/?p=4611