/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.10668749]

About two years ago I read this book.

Before this I was mostly interested in literary fiction but I thought it would be useful to learn about the world around me.

BIG MISTAKE. Everything I've read since has been on topics like the mass media, propaganda, the financial crises, state corruption, indoctrination in universities, wars... and I've barely scratched the surface.

I am deep down the rabbit hole and it is so alienating. I can't talk to anyone, I either have to put on a fake smile and join in their silly games, or get treated like a weird conspiracy theorist.

How can I live in this world now?

[Anonymous No.10668792]

>>10668749

Wow I thought it was just me. Recommend me books about mass media and psychological manipulation

Propaganda by Edward Bernays is a favorite of mine. Growth Hacker Marketing is a little meme-ish but it's a decent look at how modern marketing is approached, and it's by Ryan Holiday if that means anything to you

[Anonymous No.10668793]

>>10668749
>I've barely scratched the surface.
>I am deep down the rabbit hole

Wut?

[Anonymous No.10668819]

>>10668749
Bro why do you think people read fiction, life in modern society is depressing as fuck. You are just now realizing this? Are you like 17?

[Anonymous No.10668823]

how is /lit/so full of reddit?

[Anonymous No.10668829]

>>10668749
Fall in love. Get involved in politics. Appreciate the relationships you have. Maybe go to therapy.

[Anonymous No.10668834]

What’s his best book?

Or what book should I at least start with?

[Anonymous No.10668862]

>>10668793
A deep rabbit hole could be considered to not even scratch the surface of a large enough body

[Anonymous No.10668864]

>>10668829
>therapy

[Anonymous No.10668889]

Here is how I live now:

I don't but anything other than food and bare essentials (toilet paper, toothpaste etc.).

Since I don't spend any money I can afford to work just 16 hours a week and survive.

I consume media very carefully. I read the news but only to analyse it, ensuring I check a variety of sources to avoid the Google bubble.

I'm pretty much a hermit. I can't seem to have friends because their life revolves around working all day and spending the evenings drinking or watching television to "relax", or talking about Trump like it matters.

>>10668792
I know about Edward Bernays from the The Century of the Self documentary series, it's great. I recommend reading about the rest of the Frankfurt school, which was also heavily influenced by Freud, and has extreme influence on mass media today.

I used to work in tech so I know about about Ryan Holiday and all I can say now is that startup environment has one of the most toxic cultures and politics I can think of. Some of their shit was exposed by James Damore, but their leftist totalitarianism goes way beyond that.

>>10668793
There are many aspects of modern life that are horrifying. The food we eat, the pharmaceuticals we get prescribed, the technology we use, surveillance, our corrupt legislators, unjust wars and so on. It takes up a lot of my read about all of these yet I have only a general view.

[Anonymous No.10668894]

>>10668749
Go to bed Thijs, it a quarter past eleven.
And stop talking about politics all the fucking time, you're a cool bloke but you're gonna lose friends with your autistic shit. If its such a big deal to you walk the talk.
Also, read non-political poetry

[Anonymous No.10668913]

>>10668819
>>10668823
People like you are part of the problem. Just like the labourer is content with working 40 hours a week so he can fill his house with pointless things, you feel happy about your life because you get to walk around with the smug air of superiority around you. Trust me, nobody gives a fuck about what you think.

>>10668834
Understanding Power. (Also his stuff on linguistics is great, but off topic obviously.)

[Anonymous No.10668916]

>>10668749
>how can live now?
well talking to other people about this sort of thing can go a long way toward feeling less alienated.
also, you seem to be in an initial "shock" stage, but i can tell you it does get easier to adjust with time.
>alienation
ultimately, though, i think it depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. it seems you've already uncovered many of the illusions that used to inform your day to day life, so that you can no longer take for granted the truth of certain assumptions about the world (e.g. "the government is responsible for protecting the people", "people who control massive wealth and massive armies hold the same basic moralistic beliefs as myself and those around me").
but there may be other, more hidden, assumptions concerning your very own nature that you have yet to uncover.
there's no reason to go "all the way" if you're not so inclined. the fewer illusions you are be burdened by, the more difficult it may become to feel at ease in contemporary western society.

spending some time in a place where you don't speak the language can also do wonders for your sanity.

>can't talk to anyone
you may already do this, but i have found it helpful to write out my thoughts as honestly as possible, going so far as to force myself to write down things that i would be too ashamed to tell anyone.

[Anonymous No.10668917]

>>10668894
Honestly don't know what you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.10668933]

>>10668749
>put on a fake smile and join in their silly games
>How can I live in this world now?
you answered your own question

[Anonymous No.10668955]

>>10668913
Nobodys deriding the book you dink its the fact that there are people acting like hysterical 14 yr old girls and writing in reddit format.
read Edward bernays, Douglas Valentine, E. Michael Jones, Legacy of Ashes, Deep State by mike lofgren if you want recs but stop acting like a retard

[Anonymous No.10668974]

>>10668916
Thanks for the response and suggestion.

I don't think I'm in first shock phase, I'm in a more retrospective state, thinking about how this has affected my life.

And it's not just the political and corporate world, I'm seeing the same patterns in many social structures.

Reading Schopenhauer's stuff on love ("it's just chemicals in your brain dude") has made me look at relationships with even bleaker view.

It's hard to enjoy anything now. I could see myself becoming an alcoholic since that's the only thing that brings me any joy.

[Anonymous No.10668990]

>>10668955
I appreciate the recommendations. I don't know what reddit format is, I tried to look it up but all it brings up is formatting stuff. Really don't know what you're talking about with regards to 14 year olds, maybe stop talking to them.

[Anonymous No.10668996]

>>10668955
>muh tough love
not OP but i love you too anon
do you honestly know that many people who are willing to look beneath the surface that meeting another such person warrants such casual jerkish behaviour? no need to be pretentious, there's enough negativity around.

[Anonymous No.10669026]

The rabbit hole gets even worse when you realise almost everything you hear about the Soviet Union is incorrect. You have to check each individual claim made by western historians, since all of them base their work off of hysterical anti-communist sources. I've assembled a reading list that would probably take me several years just to penetrate the competing narratives and find some semblance of historical "truth". It's pretty depressing.

[Anonymous No.10669027]

>>10668996
but im part of the problem these people are whining about so I get a little offended when I hear people talking about and complaining about the handiwork that supplies me my bread and butter, what are you gonna do about it?

[Anonymous No.10669047]

>>10668889
>>10668913
Regardless of manipulation, people nevertheless need their leisure time and their culture. Don’t deride them for it. It’s a release valve, a necessary one. To be honest I’m not sure if withdrawing from the world is a necessary response. One can participate in a culture (however lightly, however skeptically) and be aware of its cruder patches.
As Schiller said, “Live with your century, but do not be it’s creature.”

[Anonymous No.10669109]

>>10668974
At some point, you just have to take your position in stride.

Acknowledge all the shortcomings and limitations that come along with being human, and the historical identity you've been given at this period of time.

After that just try to be real with people. The ones who don't give you the time of day afterward probably aren't worth your time anyway. The ones who stick around might even enjoy your company and help ground you a bit when you're feeling to existential to function.

[Anonymous No.10669119]

OP I am going to sleep now. I will read the rest of the posts tomorrow.

[Anonymous No.10669294]

>>10668793
KEK

[Anonymous No.10669337]

>>10668974
>>10668974
>becoming alcoholic
well, that is one of the standard outcomes (along with other drug addictions) for people in your position. and i can't deny having spent a lot of my own time and energy on such a path.
but if i can say anything about this, it would be to convey my feeling that the more meaningless the superficial appearances of people and things become, the greater my appreciation for those hidden truths that determines those appearances, and the greater my desire to understand the hidden truth of my own nature.
>hard to enjoy anything
you are clearly someone for whom it was important to understand the truth of the world around them. and having understood much in this regard, maybe it's nearly inevitable to resort to drinking and other such pasttimes so as to deal better. but you're not innocent anymore, and if you abandon ship at this point, i humbly. respectfully think you are merely leaving your work unfinished. for example, the fact that you are bothered by the things you have learned about the world and human relations, suggests that there are many things for you to still learn about why you feel the way you do about things. i think the better you understand yourself, the less disturbed you might be by the wholly unsympathetic appearance of the rest of the world.
i wish i could say something really concrete to convey my feeling that you're on a fucking magical journey that is worth all the shittyness you have and will continue to encounter along the way. it's a privilege to have the opportunity to ramble at you anon.

[Anonymous No.10669511]

>>10668889
can you picture yourself in a state where you would be happy. where is it?

[Anonymous No.10669515]

>>10668749
>the mass media, propaganda, the financial crises, state corruption, indoctrination in universities, wars.

do you have an essentials reading list?

[Anonymous No.10669639]

/r/economics FAQ on financial crisis for a neutral perspective

[Anonymous No.10669662]

>>10669639
>neutral perspective
>book recommendations. Milton Friedman.

[Anonymous No.10670307]

that was the original book putting fakenews on blast, trumpists should get over the fact that chompsky wrote it and give it a read

[Anonymous No.10670325]

>>10668819
If you only read books because "man, today people suck, I wanna go back when being a conceited shut in was something everyone loved" then please stop posting here. You have nothing to contribute.

[Anonymous No.10670327]

AMUSING OURSELVES TO DEATH

[Anonymous No.10670556]

>>10668974
Read the Kybalion

[Anonymous No.10670565]

>>10669662
Well yeah he's probably the third most important economist in history.

[Anonymous No.10670570]

>>10668749
>I am deep down the rabbit hole
you've pigeonholed yourself within le skeptic community
just what globocorp wants--who do you think prints your books?

[Anonymous No.10670660]

>>10668749
the solution to all of this is to make consumerism unattractive. The exact moment that having more consumer goods ceases to make somebody more fuckable is the exact moment that the system implodes on itself like a supernova

[Anonymous No.10670708]

>>10668913
>feels the need to respond with an angry, berating monologue to two posters
>"Trust me, nobody gives a fuck about what you think."

[Anonymous No.10670810]

>>10670565
doesn't means he wasn't a hack

[Anonymous No.10670900]

>>10668792
Read Culture of Critique

[Anonymous No.10670912]

>>10668823
its /pol/ and /leftypol/'s fault and /v/'s really

you faggots let normalfags in and your owner sold the place to a kikenip

[Anonymous No.10670932]

>>10670307
>trumpists should get over the fact that chompsky wrote it
Nigga that's the first book I use to convert normies into the alt-right

[Anonymous No.10670936]

>>10670325
/lit/ is slow enough, we can't afford to lose 99.8% of posters

[Anonymous No.10671032]

>>10668974
Self-destruction is not the answer. Once you go down that path, they win. This anon >>10669337 offers some good advice. Pursuing a higher truth as you dispel the illusions of the world is a noble purpose. Rene Guenon's Crisis of the Modern World, and The Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times explains the metaphysics which underlie all the existing power structures that are meant to enfeeble, stupefy, and corrupt humanity. I also recommend reading Julius Evola's Ride the Tiger, where he explains how one can live in an irredeemably fucked civilization without having to comprise his being. I am not saying these books will provide the answers you seek, but they will point you in the right direction.
>>10670556
>The Kybalion

[Anonymous No.10671038]

>>10670912
yeah, all the notoriety on the news in the last 2 years was probably the worst thing. newfags arent even ashamed anymore they dont lurk and they don't even understand when you insult them. no going back now though

[Anonymous No.10671065]

>>10668792
Jean Baudrillard - Simulation and Simulacra

[Anonymous No.10671093]

>Manufacturing Consent, Herman & Comsky
>Propaganda, Bernays
>Simulacra and Simulation, Baudrillard
>Industrial Society and It's Future, Kaczynski
>The Society of the Spectacle, Debord

Is there a subversion /lit/ reading chart?

[Anonymous No.10671216]

>>10671093
was going to make one soon

[Anonymous No.10671249]

>>10668749
I think you're not good-looking enough, that's all. Think of all those celebrities, semi-celebrities. Mini cult leaders, Charles Manson for fuck's sake. They all pulled it off. You're just unattractive, and this is the harsh truth. Unattractive and autistic, that's why you're reading books by Chomsky to begin with to be honest, and I am not even trying to be humorous or insult you, just telling the truth. The only thing you can do now is to make yourself conventionally attractive. Luckily for you, there are very few truly ugly people, most can be fixed and brought up to like 6 at least.

[Anonymous No.10671253]

>>10668889
>bare essentials (toilet paper
nice meme you fucking subhuman
how can you consider yourself an intellectual, probably call someone else barbarian, think lowly of third world, second world citizens, and then unironically smear shit on your ass with fucking paper, then put on your underwear and pants like nothing fucking happened and let literal shit brew inbetween your cheeks for hours until next shower or bath. hours or maybe even tens of hours, because if you subhumans dont wash your ass after shitting you probably dont take showers at least once at least every 24 hours, who knows, maybe you only brush your teeth sporadically when you feel like it.

in short, wash your fucking ass, this alone will make you a higher being than reading james joyce or some other shit.

[Anonymous No.10671274]

>>10668749
Wonderful.

You should listen to the Forum Borealis interviews on the black economy, on YT. I assume you've already read Propaganda and Gulag Archipelago.

[Anonymous No.10671279]

>>10670556
I'll be honest, beyond the surface of political and material and moral and so forth simulation, Gnosticism and Hermeticism is part of the final, Quantum Red-pill.

[Anonymous No.10671291]

I hope you've read this too

[Anonymous No.10671311]

>>10671093

[Anonymous No.10671315]

>>10671311
Why the 4 trial Platonic dialogues, the Ramayana, and the Tao Te Ching?

[Anonymous No.10671334]

>>10671315
Because that’s the real red pill

[Anonymous No.10671340]

>>10671334
Care to explain?

[Anonymous No.10671361]

>>10671311
>Reading these barely related works of political philosophy will somehow make you more enlightened in some vague way

[Anonymous No.10671388]

Prometheus Rissing, and Undoing Yourself have caught my eye for their techniques to deprogram myself from all the (((consumable media))) gobbledygook, but I have been sceptical in reading them since RAW and Christopher Hyatt are fans of Aleister Crowley and employ some of his teachings. After reading Bernays' Propaganda, and learning how saturated consumable media is in every dimension, I am reconsidering these works. Thoughts?

[Anonymous No.10671402]

I was the same. At some point you need to make a decision about your way forward because you can't just keep reading this stuff and live this world view isolated. Do you want to become an activist, a writer, or where do you want to end up? Once you decide you can continue or forego the reading. But you have to decide or you're heading for a wall.

[Anonymous No.10671407]

OP here for a bit before I go to work.

>>10669337
Great post, I especially like this point
>the more meaningless the superficial appearances of people and things become, the greater my appreciation for those hidden truths
This is something that a logotherapist might advise me to do... you can find meaning in any situation.

>>10669511
A world where others have their freedom back, although I don't know what I'd do then...

>>10670570
I'm well aware that the capitalist sells me the rope with which I will hang myself. If I spent all my money on anti-corporatism DVDs and stickers, then went back to slaving away, at that moment they will have won.

>>10670660
Consumerism is the most resilient force in the universe. When people realised it was bad, it found something to make them spend all their money on: minimalism. Your walls may be blank, but now you have to buy new shit every year because you've turned it into a competition of who can have the least items in their house. Oh and Apple products.

>>10670900
I'm aware of Jews but I don't think it's the problem. We can't blame people like Jews, CEOs and politicians. We need to look at the system in which we live.

[Anonymous No.10671411]

>>10671407

[Anonymous No.10671432]

>>10671253
There are literally people out there who act superior to others because their asshole is cleaner. That's right.

These people are either Muslims (known for their aggressive beliefs) and Indians (known for their lack of toilets and paper).

The argument that it's unhygienic is retarded. If you eat a good diet, stool should pass smoothly and all it takes is a little wipe just in case. Whether you scrub yourself and have an enema it doesn't matter, the rectum folds into itself and the butt cheeks shield it. A few hours later (not tens of hours) you shower. Simple.

[Anonymous No.10671440]

>>10671432

[Anonymous No.10671520]

>>10671253
>Either washing your ass or wiping

This is mutually exclusive? I've always wiped and then washed my ass immediately. I've always thought you wipe to get rid of the bulk, so that dirt doesn't get on your hand when you wash it.

Does this make me a higher being than both of you?

[Anonymous No.10671523]

>>10671520
no

[Anonymous No.10671600]

>>10671520
Why not just use fucking wet wipes.

[Anonymous No.10671603]

lmao retractable rectum mate are you a fucking horse?

>>10671600
why not just WASH your ass dumb cunts

[Anonymous No.10671604]

>>10670810
Retard

[Anonymous No.10671606]

>>10671604
triggered commie brainlet

[Anonymous No.10671610]

>>10671606
*thinkingemoji*

[Anonymous No.10671621]

>>10671407
>now you have to buy new shit every year because you've turned it into a competition of who can have the least items in their house
please elaborate. If I want as few things as possible I achieve that by NOT buying shit, not by buying new shit every year.

anyway, try to be creative and enjoy the creative process instead of focusing on the final product

[Anonymous No.10672035]

>>10671621
The new York times has a great article on this. Its titled The Oppressive Gospel of Minimalism.

[Anonymous No.10672088]

>>10672035
>responds to sincere poster
>offers up essay written by insincere consumero-fuckwad complaining about all the other insincere fuckwads around him
as an example, i've behaved like a minimalist my whole life before i even knew there was a word for it. not everything everyone does is ironic or done with the intention of being written about on the latest jew pork rhymes blogpost

[Anonymous No.10672403]

>>10669026
What about Dostoevsky?

[Anonymous No.10672416]

>>10672403
>soviet union
>dostoevsky
your mom ded?

[Anonymous No.10672434]

>>10668792
The Denial Of Death by Ernest Becker

[Anonymous No.10672994]

>>10672416
The USSR was after his time, retard.

[Anonymous No.10673411]

>>10668749
Honest question: are you happier now than two years ago?

[Anonymous No.10673438]

>>10671249
Incel pls

[Anonymous No.10673468]

>>10671249
What the fuck is this lookism bullshit?
Why the fuck has lookism started to shill on /lit/ of all places?
What the fuck do lookism incels even get out of trying to spread their worldview?

[Anonymous No.10673493]

>>10673468
I think that anon was projecting. Don't worry about it.

[Anonymous No.10673526]

>>10668889
Same, I work, read, drink and smoke, rinse and repeat. Although I feel nihilistic at times, I believe it to just pass, and I find my center again. I read and write what I see, I try to get a umbrella view of all thinks, akin to what they promote at liberalist college. Then I shave down to the core and it is only rewarding to me (and this is where my nihilism comes in). But then, as I mentioned previously, it passes and the consolidation of information helps me dig more into my own roots.

[Anonymous No.10673742]

>>10668889
>There are many aspects of modern life that are horrifying
Were said aspects not horrifying in the previous centuries? Were there not other horrifying aspects we got rid of?

[Anonymous No.10673801]

>>10668889
Working at tech startups is surreal, it's almost like being in a cult. The culture is toxic, as you say, but you do learn a lot about people and society by participating for a little while.

[Anonymous No.10673827]

>>10673411
Good question

[Anonymous No.10674422]

silicon valley is the end result of liberal accelerationism

[Anonymous No.10674442]

>>10673742
yes and we replaced them with new kinds of horrors which are less obvious because instead of being poignant and traumatic like torture or disease they’re subtle and transparent like surveillance and skinner-box consumerism

[Anonymous No.10674449]

>>10668792
Propaganda by Ellul.

[Anonymous No.10674475]

>>10674442
>whining about "skinner box consumerism" on a skinner box website

kys my man

[Anonymous No.10674735]

>>10668889
Where do you live that you can afford to live only working 16 hrs? Like rent wise.

[Anonymous No.10674765]

>>10669337
good man

[Anonymous No.10674815]

>>10674475
this is a feeb shill reply, try harder cattle nigger

[Anonymous No.10674874]

>>10672994
yeah, you dumb whoreson retard

[Anonymous No.10674879]

>>10673411
I'm not OP, but I am going through something similar as he is. Since I've realized the extent of the subversive media, I no longer watch tv, nor play any vidya. I have accepted the hopeless state of civilization with no possibility of it getting better, yet I am calm. I still believe there are transcendent truths in this world, and I take solace in knowing I can still save my own soul.

[Anonymous No.10674930]

>>10673468
>>10673438
why are you uglies so triggered? you'd think on /lit/ of all places, people would actually see the truth

[Anonymous No.10675121]

>>10668889
>I consume media very carefully. I read the news but only to analyse it, ensuring I check a variety of sources to avoid the Google bubble.
analyse for what purpose you douche?

>>10671253
high quality douche

[Anonymous No.10675376]

>>10675121
nice wordplay haha i will choose to believe it was intented my man, thanks btw

[Anonymous No.10675380]

>>10675121
nice wordplay haha i will choose to believe it was intended my man, thanks btw

[Anonymous No.10675394]

Welcome to the desert of the real, OP

[Anonymous No.10676922]

>>10675394
I'd rather die than read those, 100 pages into dirty wars and I couldn't go any further

[Anonymous No.10676992]

>>10675121
>analyse for what purpose you douche?
ummm how else are you supposed to know what's going on in the world?

[Anonymous No.10677020]

>>10668913
Seconding Understanding Power. Amazing how right nietzsche was in his quote and I think Chomsky is one of the best examples of the quote.

"Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity. For the crowd believes that if it cannot see to the bottom of something it must be profound. It is so timid and dislikes going into the water.”

[Anonymous No.10677057]

Go all the way.

Foucault and Deleuze are key.

[Anonymous No.10677149]

>>10668749
Your ability to change this reality is small at best. You either go off and become a revolutionary or you come to terms with it and find your inner peace. Self destruction is a completely futile and illogical answer. Look towards self improvement, and shit who knows what happens next?

[Anonymous No.10677181]

>>10670565
He might have been popular but not prolific. It is like saying Stephen Hawking was better than Einstein in physics.

[Anonymous No.10677251]

>>10677057
Avoid Frenchies. Read Adorno.

[Anonymous No.10677287]

>>10677181
Hang on a second... Stephen Hawking is a popularizer of science, kinda like Neil deGrasse Tyson or Carl Sagan. Milton Friedman was more of an activist, advising politicians and policymakers. That's what makes him important, but it doesn't take away from his actual academic achievements--he won a Nobel Prize.

I'd like to know who you think think is a better economist from the last century.

[Anonymous No.10679038]

>>10677287
>Stephen Hawking is a popularizer of science, kinda like Neil deGrasse Tyson or Carl Sagan
nope. do you even black holes bro? he may have written some popular books, but his research in the field of cosmology will stick around far longer than anything a politically-motivated hack like milton friedman (left or righty, they're all useless faggots) has ever done. the fact that hawking has followed newton and dirac as lucasian prof of mathematics should give you an idea of his bona fides
>better economist
not economists (what a waste that would have been), but john nash or daniel kahneman have probably done far more to advance our understanding of economically relevant decision making beyond the "muh all encompassing ideology" level that dudes like friedman are stuck on
also,
>unironically mentioning nobel prize in economics

[Anonymous No.10679450]

>>10679038
>john nash or daniel kahneman have probably done far more to advance our understanding of economically relevant decision making beyond the "muh all encompassing ideology" level that dudes like friedman are stuck on
`
Look, behavioural economics is interesting, but hasn't really made observations that are close to being close to 1% of GDP. Friedman's ideas, however, have smoothed the business cycle considerably.

[Anonymous No.10679508]

Can someone make a rabbit hole reading chart? I want to go as deep as possible, step by step into the abyss from whence there is no return.

[Anonymous No.10679519]

>>10671311
what a fucking hodge podge of a chart

[Anonymous No.10679551]

>>10679450
>observations that are close to being close to 1% of GDP
i honestly have no idea what you're saying here dude
>Friedman's ideas, however, have smoothed the business cycle considerably
how does one even validly and reliably measure the influence of ideas on the "smoothness of the business cycle"? i'm assuming there's no empirical basis to this claim, so if i'm ignorant, feel free to enlighten me.

[Anonymous No.10679557]

>>10669026
it gets even worse when you realize this about the entirety of history, and then come to the ultimate conclusion that absolutely nothing is truly real because the world is based on fiction and you realize you're suddenly a postmodernist even though you lived your whole life as a skeptic in constant search of the truth but it's okay because everything written about the greeks might be completely untrue

[Anonymous No.10679578]

>>10679508
There already is sort of one.

[Anonymous No.10679585]

>>10679578
Here's part 1 for reference.

[Anonymous No.10679592]

>>10679557
how much of what you hold on to as true, is held on to as such because to deny its truth would bring about your realization that everything you have been taught is a lie?

[Anonymous No.10679641]

>>10679585
>>10679578
these suck and aren't about what's being discussed in this thread at all