Novella/Short Story Reading Group - Ficciones

[Anonymous No.10623033]

Previous Thread: >>10607854
Reading Schedule:

>PART ONE
Feb 1 - Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius
Feb 2 - The Approach to Al-Mu'tasim
Feb 3 - Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote
Feb 4 - The Circular Ruins.
Feb 5 - The Lottery in Babylon
Feb 6 - An Examination of the Work of Herbert Quain
Feb 7 - The Library of Babel
Feb 8 - The Garden of Branching Paths
>PART TWO
Feb 9 - Funes the Memorious
Feb 10 - The Form of the Sword
Feb 11 - Theme of the Traitor and the Hero
Feb 12 - Death and the Compass
Feb 13 - The Secret Miracle
Feb 14 - Three Versions of Judas
Feb 15 - The End
Feb 16 - The Sect of the Phoenix
Feb 17 - The South
Feb 18 - Final discussion, next book contracted.

Any English readers interested in the Giovanni Translations can find part one here: www[DOT]libraryofbabel[DOT]info/borges/thegardenofbranchingpaths[DOT]pdf

Thoughts on the first story? Any final suggestions for books 2 and 3? I accidentally Al-Mu'tasim last night so I'll be reading pic related today. If you're a day ahead (Feb 2) just subtract a day from the schedule and finish on the 19th. Have fun!

[Anonymous No.10623049]

>reading Borges in anything else but the original language
why fucking bother.

[sin No.10623081]

>>10623049
Living in the southern US has ruined Spanish for me.

>>10623033
The first story is what I would consider Borges's least compelling. It's not "bad" by any means, it's just boring.

[Anonymous No.10623122]

>>10623049
For the philosophy? To find hints of the English authors he drew his style from? Because the Giovanni translations were made with his direct consultation?
El proxima tiempo, lees en Español y cayate.

[Anonymous No.10623128]

I have Ficciones on hold at the library. Hopefully it will be there today or tomorrow.

[Anonymous No.10623135]

>>10623122
"callate."
Díos mío.

[Anonymous No.10623138]

>>10623033
It's the second story I've read by Borges. It is ok. I didn't understand some parts. I'm a brainlet and I don't even know what sophism is and its relation to that part of the story. Care to explain anyone?

[Anonymous No.10623380]

>>10623138
Sophism derives (correct me if I’m wrong) from Ancient Greek Sophists, “philosophers” before Socrates that charged rich kids up the ass to teach them how to argue with the use of rhetoric. Sophist arguments aren’t nescessarily based on knowledge/logic and they can be self serving or deceptive. How this relates to the story I’m not sure (haven’t had time to read the story yet), but maybe I can say more later.

[Anonymous No.10623539]

>>10623138
The philosophy in Tlon was founded on Sophism like anon said
>>10623380
Sophism isn't based on anything solid. This is relevant to the story because by the end of it people begin to believe in Tlon even though the ones writing it are constructing a world that isn't real until it is real through influence.

[Anonymous No.10623549]

Noice

[Anonymous No.10623821]

I really did not like reading this first story at all.
The idea behind the whole thing is kinda cool, but it was just boring as hell to read, especially part 2 where Borges essentially lists extravagant Tlön extensions of various philosophies. I had to stand up at one point because I was getting tired.
It felt like something Borges would've come up with quickly, that lacks a coherent philosophy behind the Tlön world of livig incoherent philosophy.
I want to say it would be better if it were shorter, not that it is very long, but that would be at the cost of depth. Then again, there is really no valuable depth to speak of, just a lot of ideas.
Maybe I'm just a brainlet who can't understand the philosophizing, but I feel like I understood, I just don't appreciate it.
Maybe on a reread the ideas would come together to create a more satisfying read, but I doubt I'll ever reread it.

[Anonymous No.10624052]

Also on the docket for today is selections for books 2 and 3. The Trial got most mentions in the last thread so that’s 2. Conteders for 3 are as follows:
-Lost in the Funhouse
-Something by Calvino
-The Passion According to G.H.
First reply to this post decides book 3 from these options.

[Anonymous No.10624064]

>>10623081
>>10623138
>>10623821
I feel like less of a brainlet now

[Anonymous No.10624075]

>>10624052
I've never read anything by Calvino, so that would be cool. Anyone down to read some short stories by Mishima?

[Anonymous No.10624109]

I started The Trial. Fuck you all

[Anonymous No.10624129]

>>10624109
I'm currently about halfway through the trial and labyrinths(another borges short story collection)

[Anonymous No.10624135]

>>10623122
>el próxima
>lees
>cayate
>>>10623135
>Díos

[Anonymous No.10624182]

>>10623821
I have to agree.

It's the kind of story that puts forward some interesting ideas, but the prose and overall narrative is boring. The moment it mentioned mirrors and Gnosticism, I could predict exactly where it was going.

[Anonymous No.10624234]

>>10624182
I thought the concept to be interesting enough to tide me over while reading. Really enjoyed trying to imagine what that world would be like. I agree about the lacking narrative though.

[Anonymous No.10624241]

>>10623138
>>10623380
>>10623539
>>10623821
>>10624182
>>10624234
>narrative
its an essay.

[Anonymous No.10624251]

>>10624241
Essays can still be engaging.

[Anonymous No.10624310]

>>10623821
>I had to stand up at one point
“stretched his legs”

[Anonymous No.10624332]

>>10624075
Calvino it is. Pic related was suggested. We can do Mishima in the next three.

[Anonymous No.10624340]

The first time I read Tlon it fucked me me up in a good way. What did you guys think about the 'alien' radical way they construe meaning?

[Anonymous No.10624341]

>>10624241
It's a shit

[Anonymous No.10624347]

>>10624109
See you on the 19th

[Anonymous No.10624466]

>>10624241
>It's an essay
Wrong.

[Anonymous No.10624799]

>>10623033
I've read this in the past, the only story I didn't find interesting was "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote". So, he transcribed Don Quixote line by line, therefore he's the author? Thoughts on this story?

[Anonymous No.10625357]

I swear reading it on Spanish feels so much better than reading it on English, it's magical and interesting. His use of the Spanish language feels so academic, refined, even somewhat corny, but the situations feel so normal when he uses them, which I find very interesting.

A pity you can't read him on his native language, even if he was an Anglo-phile and all that, his Spanish writing was way above his English.

[Anonymous No.10625398]

>>10625357
this.

>el espejo inquietaba fondo de un corredor
based
>the mirror bothered the corridor
HURRRr

[Anonymous No.10625493]

>>10625357
There're different English translations. The ones you find online for free are probably the worst.

[Anonymous No.10625606]

>>10625398
>>10625398

there are things that are hard to translate, for example try giving me a good translation of that.

[Anonymous No.10625705]

WTF is this, 30 replies, 3 by me, 2 on topic and it's almost time for next short story?

[Anonymous No.10625713]

This short time between stories encourages piracy.

[Anonymous No.10625739]

>>10625713
>morality
>4chan
someone help this man find his way back to /r/eddit

[Anonymous No.10625762]

>>10625606
>for example try giving me a good translation of that.
theres none, thats my point >>10623049

[Anonymous No.10625802]

>>10625739
This is a christian board what are you talking about?

[Anonymous No.10625942]

>>>>10625762
and heres why: because reading Borges is a purely aesthetic activity, theres no importance to the plot, no importance to the concepts exposed. its not an educational read, because half the sources are made up. theres no moral to the stories either. Borges in spanish (as anon pointed before) has this very specific feel of adventure, but through metaphysical themes, so its a very unique mixture that relies on each carefully selected word to keep that engaging magic. ive read lots of translations, none can cut it.

about the "inquietaba" word, inquietud means to be bothered, also to be not still. Borges meant that the mirror was a space that generated movement in that corner or whatever, a nervous movement shold i add, which involves the viewer of such scene, because the movement is relative to the movement of said viewer. its a kinetic and also subjective element, not about any psychological "bothering".

[Anonymous No.10626112]

>>10625942
I think much of these problems are due to the complexity of the first story. Its translation starts off with an interesting premise but admittedly begins to feel like cheap sci-fi half way through. I think some of his creativity does manage to survive into the English but not enough to make it a fulfilling read.
However I do not believe this is true of Al-Mu'tasim, nor for other stories contained in this collection. The plot of Al-Mu'tasim is more simple and I'd argue that much of its significance is maintained, though I haven't read this one in the original Spanish. To say Uqbar is not educational because half the sources are made up is to ignore the direct citations of the other half that are.
And sure. Things get lost in translation. Dante's poetry is better in the old pseudo-Italian dialect that he wrote it in. But this was the book we agreed to read first, and all this "why fucking bother" stuff should have been more clearly argued before we confirmed this as our first reading. I personally don't find it much of a problem as I like the raw ideas of Borges, fragmented as they may be. This also gives other people here (monomongs) some preliminary exposure to him.
If you guys are really not into finishing this thing then I'm happy to come up with a new schedule for the Trial, or something else.

[Anonymous No.10626400]

>>10625705
Nobody liked the story, so nobody cares to talk about it.

[Anonymous No.10626411]

>>10626400
Do we switch or keep going?

[Anonymous No.10626438]

>>10626400
Because lit us filled with brainl>>10626411
ets

[Anonymous No.10626465]

My copy of ficciones doesn't have the approach to al mutasim, neither does my copy of borges complete stories. I will join you fellas for pierre manrd autor del quijote

[Anonymous No.10626584]

>>10623033
I once recorded myself repeating "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" over and over with my faggy voice as if I could come up with the right pronunciation (if there's any). I wouldn't post it.

[Anonymous No.10626782]

>>10626411
Keep going unless we all hate the next 2 stories.

[Anonymous No.10626785]

>>10626400
>>10626411
>>10626438
I see few posts about Borges everyday on catalog, and now a dead reading group discussion.
Fuck you, retards.
>>10626465
My edition also doesn't have that story so I'll have my day off. I hope that story isn't discussed more than the current one.

[Anonymous No.10626791]

>>10626400
>>10626411
>>10626438
I see several posts about Borges everyday on catalog, and now a dead reading group discussion.
Fuck you, retards.
>>10626465
My edition also doesn't have that story so I'll have my day off. I hope that story isn't discussed more than the current one.

[Anonymous No.10627100]

>>10624241

>It's an essay.
>The book is literally called 'Fictions'

[Anonymous No.10627120]

>>10627100
All of borges writings are essays thinly disguised as fiction

[Anonymous No.10627148]

>>10623033
Pierre Menard is fucking genius and I think about it all the time. I referenced it in an American Psycho copypasta once

[Anonymous No.10627283]

>>10625398
>the mirror disturbed the end of the corridor

[Anonymous No.10627402]

Am I the only one who actually enjoyed the story? It's my second time reading it, and I feel like I got a lot more out of it this time.

>>10623138
This anon is right about sophism >>10623380. Not sure why people here think the world is based on Sophism, when the text says directly it's based on Berkeley-esque idealism. In fact, one of the main purposes of the story seems to be to take idealism to its extreme.

Interesting to note that the "verb-based" language in the story is similar to many Native American languages: http://www.native-languages.org/definitions/verb-based.htm

[Anonymous No.10627419]

>not knowing a pseudo fiction essay from actual fiction
>not enjoying Tlön
>reading Borges at face value when he was a known trickster and postmodern writing incarnated
>not getting SHIT about Borges
holy shit guys im afraid. is this really the literature forum?

[Anonymous No.10627422]

>>10627402
Some of you may want to take a look at these:
https://www.iep.utm.edu/berkeley/#H4
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320833239_Borges_and_the_Subjective-Idealism_in_Relativity_Theory_and_Quantum_Mechanics

There's other secondary lit out there that talks about this particular story but this will be available to everyone and may help put his writing in context

[Anonymous No.10627432]

>>10627419
Yeah, my hope is that people are just new to it :/
I'm no expert but I love Borges. I always feel like there's a million things I want to learn more about after reading any of his stories.

[Anonymous No.10627466]

>>10627432
what bothers me most is that the guys are like, yeah i read it, it was sort of boring, next please!

that narration is fucking amazing, theres lots to be talked about, hours of endless speculation on the possibilities that gives understanding the world like that, or a world that works like that, about the psychological nature of language and so on, but there wasnt any discussion whatsoever, just some "what is sophism?" question which i sincerely found bone chilling.

i think Borges doesnt need that much extra knowledge, but certainly an innate interest on the metaphysical, and also having fucking paid attention in school, how in hell you dont know what sophists are, jesus christ.

[Anonymous No.10627488]

>>10626584
This mean understands Borges.

[Anonymous No.10627489]

>>10627402
>>10627422
Here's another article, "Idealism and Dystopia in Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" by John R. Clark from The International Fiction Review. Sorry there's not a cleaner link. It's a direct link to download the PDF

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwiy4a6g2IbZAhUs1oMKHWSqANQQFgg6MAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fjournals.lib.unb.ca%2Findex.php%2FIFR%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F14368%2F15445&usg=AOvVaw0zNpGdQUfikPv8XXsCiwD_

[Anonymous No.10627492]

>>10627422
Thanks!
>>10627419
mandatory translation acknowledgement
I’m finding the overlaps/layers of his stories really interesting. The golden book the protag finds parallels the encyclopedia in some interesting ways. I assume this is one of the defining characteristics of Borges, how every idea/motif/device functions with others on multiple levels in a very compact and complete way, despite the fact that I’m reading in translation. It’s actually p comfy. The next story exemplifies this well, and Borges is even so kind as to make these parallels explicit in his writing. I’ll be reading that one in translation, too.

[Anonymous No.10627532]

>>10627466
Yeah, the general lack of curiosity or desire to try to probe deeper into the text was pretty disheartening. Even if people don't already have the answers, it's still possible to come up with interesting questions. Or to have a deeper reaction than just "I didn't like it, seemed like cheap sci-fi." I was hoping that some people here would have greater familiarity with other texts/authors that are referenced, so we'd be able to use each other as a resource to fill in our personal gaps in knowledge. But I'd be happy to just get a genuine discussion that goes beyond clarifying questions.

I'll try to post earlier tomorrow. Maybe if I can find some decent decent criticism to post it will help clarify things for people and spark some better discussion.

[Anonymous No.10627552]

>>10627492
translation is a whole issue with Borges. he does this mix of academic and poetic language, for instance i have never found a proper translation of this passage:

"El agua de la selva es feliz; podemos ser malvados y dolorosos."

that one is from three versions of judas, which is pretty fucking kino.

just to pick one word, "dolorosos" means primarily capable of hurting, hurtful if you will, but also the potential of suffering, it all encompasses both the notion of making suffering to others and being subjected to suffering, being able of it in both ways. Borges has this compassive way of writing, this mercyful way with the blind and lost human race, only comfyness comes from that.

[Anonymous No.10627611]

>>10627492
>golden book
Just to clarify, you mean Herbert Ashe's book, right? Or are you referring to another story? In my translation it's yellow.
Yeah I'm reading a book by Italo Calvino right now too and both he and Borges are really focused on "layers of reality" within their fiction (maybe even in the real world). What one needs to create a reality, and how different levels can merge with each other.
On a related note, does anyone have info about Borges' religious views? If Tlon is "a labyrinth contrived by men, a labyrinth designed to be deciphered by men," and the real world is ordered in accordance with "divine laws," is God just one layer of reality farther up?

[Anonymous No.10627635]

>>10627552
I wish I hadn't let my Spanish go to shit, a few years ago I would have been able to read it untranslated :(
For anyone in the same boat as I am (i.e. knows some Spanish but not enough to take this on), try getting a Spanish language copy from your library (or online) and reading them side by side. That's what I'm doing and it's nice to be able to read the content in English first, and then read what I can in Spanish to get a more authentic sense of his style.

[Anonymous No.10627725]

>>10627466
Sure, there is a lot to talk about with Tlön, and that's the problem.
It was like watching a really good boxing match, where both boxers are so good that nobody lands any punches. Lots of skill on display, with nothing of value sticking out.
I could delve deeper into anything in the story, but I just can't be bothered to.
>that narration is fucking amazing
Nah
I already read the next story, it's better.

[Anonymous No.10627738]

>>10627725
>I could delve deeper into anything in the story, but I just can't be bothered to
Is everyone on this board 15?

[Anonymous No.10627771]

>>10627738
Most of the posts in this thread made me embarrassed to even be on /lit/, desu

[Anonymous No.10627790]

>complains about the lack of quality discussion
>doesn't even try to offer quality discussion

wow

[Anonymous No.10627800]

>>10627790
Not the only post I've made in this thread, anon

[Anonymous No.10627804]

>>10627800
I'm saying that the posts since the complaining started have all been very surface level.

[Anonymous No.10627847]

>>10627804
Not that anon, and yeah the later posts haven't been super deep, but for me at least I was honestly surprised that there was basically no discussion of any depth going on when I jumped into the thread. Writing some sort of deep analysis/reaction of my own would have felt like shouting into a void, so I thought I'd provide some links in the hope that they would help orient people a little more. Plus I'm not sure I'm really capable of providing truly insightful analysis, I'm just a beginner myself. I had plenty of questions, at least. But people on this board complaining about how the story was hard to get into and saying that it's like cheap sci fi is just kinda sad.

[Anonymous No.10627879]

>>10627847
Well I think everyone will have more to say tomorrow, since then next story is short, and way easier to get to the heart of.

[Anonymous No.10627915]

>>10627879
I hope so! People also may just be adjusting to the writing style, too.

[Anonymous No.10628016]

>>10627422
Props for linking to IEP, because it's probably one of the best resources for philosophy online (only really overshadowed by the Stanford Encyclopedia which isn't really suitable for non-academics).

BUT, that researchgate article is one of the most amateurish things I've ever read. I've seen first year undergraduates with better prose style than that.

[Anonymous No.10628416]

>>10623033
oh boy, I just found this thread, hope it stays alive until I can read the first story later today

[Anonymous No.10628722]

>>10624332
i thought it was if on a winters night a traveler

[Anonymous No.10628727]

>>10623033
Isn't 18 days for a book this short a bit too much?
Anyway, I'll be joining you guys tomorrow.

[Anonymous No.10628741]

>>10626782
no let’s finish this

[Anonymous No.10629144]

>>10628727
We're taking it slow the first round, this group is meant to be fun and fairly low stress.
Has anyone read the The Approach to Al-Mu'tasim yet? Should we make a new thread for each story or continue working with this one?
I appreciate Borges' laying out an epic for us in 7-8 pages. For those who have read Ulysses: When he talks about the surface level comparisons to it, is he referring to anything specifically? What are your thoughts around the theological theme? Have you ever found yourself in this position, seeking someone important to you with only intimations and a hunch to follow? Do you believe it makes sense for Al-Mu'tasim to function as a symbol of a single deity that unifies disparate religions, even those containing multiple deities? If Al-Mu'tasim is in fact the Hindu that he tried to kill, what are the implications? The protagonist does a fair amount of harm to society/others before beginning his approach; does his quest redeem him at all, or is he still mostly the same person when he approaches the doorway?
That's all I have time for now but I'll be back later today.

[Anonymous No.10629386]

>>10629144
>Should we make a new thread for each story or continue working with this one?
I'd say continue until it hits bump limit. I'd also appreciate if this would become a permantent short story/novella general like /sffg/.

[Anonymous No.10629442]

>>10627466
I'm the one who asked the question. Sorry for asking... Sorry that I tried to improve. I should note that the people in my surroundings (both the ones I choose and the ones that are just around me without my will) know 90% less than me, especially in this field, so there's some explanation for you.
PS: I wouldn't dare to ask if there was a more intricate discussion going on, so fuck you.

[Anonymous No.10629483]

>>10629386
*a permanent short story/novella reading group general

[Anonymous No.10629556]

>>10629144
I'd make a new thread to cater to the attention span shown in this one.

[Anonymous No.10629861]

>>10629556
That's what I was thinking, a fresh start, but I doubt a new thread will really change much. Let this one stand as evidence of our potential for literary growth. Any thoughts on the shitty questions I posed?

[Anonymous No.10630294]

>>10628722
Okay, let's do that one then.

[Anonymous No.10630553]

>>10629861
Not him, but afaik most editions excluded Al-Mu'tasim (mine did), so maybe we don't have many anons today to discuss this story.

>>10630294
>>10628722
Also voting for this.

[Anonymous No.10630770]

>>10629442
r/iamverysmart

[Anonymous No.10631054]

I haven't managed to read the stories as I have been travelling in the past 2 days, but hopefully I'll catch up tomorrow.

[Anonymous No.10631177]

>>10631054
>>10630553
unless you guys are reading in Spanish you could always refer to OP, it's included in the PDF link

[Anonymous No.10631328]

>>10631177
>tfw reading in German

[Anonymous No.10631381]

>>10631328
>tfw reading in macedonian

[Anonymous No.10631740]

>>10631381
nice!

[Anonymous No.10631763]

>>10629442
FWIW, I'm one of the people who responded to you and I don't think you should be ashamed of asking. We've all got to start somewhere. You may get a lot more out of this book if you reread it after having read up a bit on philosophy, though. I'd rather have people asking relevant questions than just complaining about the text.

>>10629144
I think this is another story that touches on pantheism/"a world of mind." He also seems to be interested in questioning the limits of symbolism and literary flourishes - at least that's how I read the reference to Ulysses (which I haven't read). In reality, Borges definitely thought Joyce's works had merit, even though he did have a complicated relationship with his work (I don't know that much about this, just what I picked up from quickly googling it). I will try to come back later with more thoughts, still trying to let it sink in.

Here's a link to an article about Plotinus, who he references in the text: http://www.iep.utm.edu/plotinus/
And a wiki article on the poem the fictional novel was based on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conference_of_the_Birds

[Anonymous No.10632299]

I liked Al-Mu'tasim a lot more than Tlön.
It was much more focused and well presented, which means it came across coherently, and not like a completely made up story serving as the vessel for some philosophical chicken dance, the way Tlön did.
The narrator wishes that the novel he has represented Al-Mu'tasim as an actual person instead of a symbol, this is the same thing the main character of the novel wants, to find a human who embodies the goodness (godliness) he seeks.
As the main character goes on his journey he meets good people who "know" Al-Mu'tasim.
The birds of the poem talked about at the end find that they are what they are searching for. It is the same way in the novel. Al-Mutasim (even if he "exists" as the man at the end, and is the Hindu forgiving the protagonist, it doesn't really matter, because he wouldn't be what is being looked for.) cannot be one person, but is all of the good people, including the protagonist. The narrator wants just one person to be Al-Ma'tasim because he wants to understand God, or at least see that the goodness of godliness can manifest itself, missing the fact that it already has.

[Anonymous No.10632337]

>>10629144
>>10629861
I think the mentioning of Joyce and Homer is to reflect on the idea that one should not simply construe parallels based on the fact that these stories are epics but to focus more on the happenings within these travels. From my brief understanding of the Ulysses that's the subtle connection he is trying to make. This ties into what anon said about pantheism in which reality is divinity:
>>10631763

Would anyone that followed that belief be able to forgive themselves for whatever crime they committed? Wouldn't that person be god themselves? Isn't the person closest to god in this story actually a book seller? Even after a saint? Wouldn't the writer be advocating that knowledge holds more importance than holiness?

[Anonymous No.10632552]

>>10623033
>www[DOT]libraryofbabel[DOT]info/borges/thegardenofbranchingpaths[DOT]pdf

why would you do that to the url?

[Anonymous No.10632829]

>>10632299
>>10632337
What if Al-Mu’tasim is just a stand-in for the good in the protagonist himself? His rise from depravity and his search for goodness are as internal as they are external; perhaps there IS no Al-Mu’tasim, and the people he comes across just become friendlier as he gets closer to the person that he wants to be? It makes me think of TCOL 49, where the Trystero is just a hunch and their existence is secondary to the growth that Oedipa, the main character of the story, experiences. This idea fits in with the bird poem and if I remeber correctly it is the only idea not explicitly discussed. “We are what we are looking for”.

[Anonymous No.10632833]

>>10632552
Because some links are blocked on 4chan and because I was too dumb to test it on another board before posting.

[Anonymous No.10632903]

>>10632829
This makes a lot more sense and somewhat fits with one of the more overall philosophical ideals that Borges seems to be touching upon based on the last two short stories. Borges admits to being heavily influenced by Schopenhauer and seems to be drawing a lot of expression from "The World as Will".

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/schopenhauer/#4

These themes are somewhat present in Tlon as well.

[Anonymous No.10632944]

>>10632903
Thanks for linking these articles, I’ll set aside time for them if I can.
Tomorrow (today) is the weekend, here’s hoping for more valuable responses and insight into our next story, Piere Menard.

[Anonymous No.10633753]

>>10623033
BUMP

[Anonymous No.10634348]

>>10633753
So what did you all think of Pierre Menard?

I enjoyed this absurdist "exercises in futility" theme. How does it refelect Borges own stance on literary criticism? Was he mocking over-interpretation of literary works, or did he (or only the fictional first person narrator) just acknowledge that "truth" is merely "created" by interpretation?

[Anonymous No.10634562]

>>10633753
>Quixote
Kill yourself

[Anonymous No.10634616]

No list of short stories is complete with a little Lance Manion

[Anonymous No.10634622]

>>10634562
>Quichotte

[Anonymous No.10634673]

>>10634562
>Quiboate

[Anonymous No.10635299]

Favorite story so far. More later

[Anonymous No.10635321]

>>10634348
He translated Don Quijote so well that he wrote the book as it already was? He transcribed it basically? lol is Borges trolling us?

[Anonymous No.10635839]

>>10635299
Allow me to explain myself.
>>10635321
Although the quotes given from the text and the translation are the same, I didn't imagine all of the writing being that way. The picture I had in my head was of two very similar books that tell the same general story, but not in exactly the same words throughout. I imagine the excerpts given were just meant to demonstrate how two identical passages can have entirely different implications when written by two different people. I might be wrong here but I like to think that the translation is a close (but not exact) replica, perfect and beautiful in its own right (maybe even more profound for its futility and almost assured lack of importance). It's like art for art's sake I guess, the guy did it for the love of the craft. It's pointlessness adds to the cerebral challenge and maybe brings a reward of more personal growth which, in the light of postmodernism, is about as sure as anyone can be about the merit of their creation.

[Anonymous No.10635880]

OP, how do you even manage to find books on libraryofbabel? All I find seems to be gibberish. Also, just read the story for the second day. Have to say, philosophical thoughts hidden behind a review of a fictional book is quite an interesting concept, I would have enjoyed it, had it been more essay like, with the whole concept of divinity within every human and every human within divinity had been developed a bit more. Some of the ideas suggested in here Al Mutasim being the projection of good within the protagonist are also interesting, but with the inclusion of the birds story in the notes I believe the main idea is rather the former.

[Anonymous No.10635961]

>>10635880
It should come up as a pdf? I just googled “Ficciones Giovanni Translation” and it was like the first link. Try it without the [DOT] fuckery: www.libraryofbabel.info/borges/thegardenofbranchingpaths.pdf

[Anonymous No.10635972]

>>10635880
and yeah I agree, in some ways it adds nuance but in others it’s kind of a round-about way to present the idea. Maybe he’s tricking plebs like me into being interested in Philosophy. Anyhow, glad you enjoyed it.

[Anonymous No.10636083]

>>10635880
Just use libgen.io they have everything

[Anonymous No.10636467]

>>10635961
I made a sharethread 3 or 4 years ago. If you manage to find it, it had all the Giovanni translations.
Not sure if they were better copies than Libgen's.

[Anonymous No.10636640]

>>10635839
>>10635321
No, he doesn't translate it, he writes it in the original 17th century Spanish.

"El estilo arcaizante de Menard —extranjero al fin— adolece de alguna afectación"

"The archaic style of Menard--foreign after all--suffers from something of an affectation"

And of course all of the story is the same, that's the whole point. He composed THE Quixote. It's exactly the same, but one reads it differently because it was written by a modern man and not by a man in the early 17th century. How could you read the story without getting that?

[Anonymous No.10636747]

>>10636640
I meant transcribe oops
>The archaic style of Menard--foreign after all--suffers from something of an affectation
to me this implies that there are actual linguistic differences in the text

[Anonymous No.10636781]

>>10636640
Sorry, I read it in Spanish when I was like 15. Just talking out of my ass here.

[Anonymous No.10636819]

>>10636640
im a retard, i dont get it. Is this story a joke?

[Anonymous No.10636921]

>>10636747
He's saying that reading it, knowing it was written by a modern man, it reads like it's affected because it's not his natural way of speaking.

To use the Giovanni translation, look at this line "As vivid is the contrast in styles. Menard’s, deliberately archaic -he was a foreigner, after all - is prone to certain affectations. Not so the style of his forerunner, who uses the everyday Spanish of his time with ease."

I know it seems like he's saying the texts are different, but they're actually the same. He's just reading them differently, as when he thinks the line "truth, whose mother is history" has a different meaning when Cervantes says it to when Menard says it. Think of it as a joke.

>>10636819
Yes, it is a joke, like many of Borges' works. Perhaps not exactly a joke, but a philosophical concept taken to a ridiculous extreme

[Anonymous No.10637003]

>>10636921
Oh, I should add a part where he mentions that it's the same word for word

"His ambition, an admirable one, was to produce a handful of pages that matched word for word and line for line those of Miguel de Cervantes."

’Should I confess that I often find myself imagining that he finished the book and that I read Don Quixote - all of Don Quixote - as if it had been Menard’s brainchild?"

[Anonymous No.10637357]

>>10637003
I guess part of it was wishful thinking. Like it would take more work if he took the time to learn the archaic language and write down the same ideas in slightly different words. To me this would keep the philosophy and make the guy appear more like a serious intellectual and less like a joke. But whatever, it retains value either way.
On a separate note, I rented the Spanish version today (I have tried this before with limited success) and struggle through it, so all you MUH TRANSLATIONers can just shut your traps.

[Anonymous No.10637362]

>>10637357
I will struggle through it* fuck me now I can’t speak English either.

[Anonymous No.10637799]

>>10637357
I don't think it would keep the philosophy. To me, the whole point of the story is that the text is the exact same, but the fact that someone else wrote it gives it a different meaning to the reader.

[Anonymous No.10638308]

-------------------------------------------
All above this line^ = Pranked by a frail blind guy.

Holy shit guys not again. The guy is superclear and concise, but you insist in accomodating the narration to your own wishes of "how it should have been". Why i dunno fucking why. Menard wrote literally word for word the Quijote. Exactly the same. The monkeys with typewriters stuff. He prefigured death of the author in 1939, how cool is that? Also it has some miraculous (in the christian sense) connotation, the impossible becoming possible via replication. Its like someone being born again today and living the same life as a guy that lived 200BC. But all in all a joke, one destined to stretch out your mind.

[Anonymous No.10638389]

>>10638308
this has been clear for hours, but your condescending contribution is appreciated.

[Anonymous No.10638650]

I just finished this. Bummer.

[Anonymous No.10639779]

>>10623033
BUMP

[Anonymous No.10640781]

>>10639779
So, I hope you guys are still around. How did you like The Circular Ruins?
Why did Borges choose Zoroastrianism?
Is there any significance to the two different approches the dreamer made to "create" a human being?
Were you surprised by the ending or did you foresee it?
What do you think of the approach to subjective idealism as compared to "Tlön"?

[Anonymous No.10641258]

>>10640781
Does this story allude to Platos cave?

[Anonymous No.10641278]

>>10641258
I didn't start with the greeks. What makes you think it does?

[Anonymous No.10641406]

>>10641278
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE3hgz_8Yhw

It'd be fun to think he was playing with the reader in that sense. At this point I wouldn't put anything past Borges.

[Anonymous No.10641533]

>>10641406
The themes are overlapping, but I think Borges is going even further here, alluding to the phenomenum of infinite regress, as if the guy who ascended from the cave suddenly finds out that he's in fact only anscended one story in a cave whose real extent he might never be able to measure.

[Anonymous No.10641764]

As much as I love this story I’m gonna have to sit this one out. Enjoy a day free from my half-baked analyses!

[Anonymous No.10643108]

bump

[Anonymous No.10644115]

>>10641533
Riffing off this:
>From time to time, he was troubled by the feeling that all this had already happened, but for the most part his days were happy.
Around here I started thinking about how the author himself dreams a man in writing his fiction. He crafts a character in his mind, making him as perfect and as real as he can, similar to the way the Christian God made man in his image. Borges, perhaps himself "dreamed" by The Man, is essentially dreaming a man who is dreaming a man, and maybe this story explores the implications of such a creation. It asks some questions similar to those posed in Shelley's Frankenstein.
Looking forward to the next reading, I hope to get into my Spanish copy if time allows.

[Anonymous No.10644346]

>>10644115
I agree, and I hope more anons will join in again today.

[Anonymous No.10644398]

Anybody have a .mobi or .azw3?
Just saw this post so have a lot of catching up to do.
I hope we can continue this until the end of this year.

[Anonymous No.10645180]

>>10644398
Just jump in on the next story!

[Anonymous No.10645390]

The Lottery in Babylon is probably my favorite in this collection. I'll share my thoughts on this one after re-reading tonight.

[Anonymous No.10645551]

>>10645390
So far, it's favorite stroy as well. IMHO noone should use the corny phrase "thought-provoking" before reading Borges.

[Anonymous No.10645673]

>>10645551
*my favorite story

[Anonymous No.10646609]

bump?

[Anonymous No.10646623]

>>10624064
i don't need to hear a lisp to know if someone's a faggot

[Anonymous No.10646893]

>>10623049
Because it has more to do with the cosmological meditations than the prose. Its not like Borges uses a lot of poetic devices in the first place.

[Anonymous No.10647573]

>>10646893
Inb4 muh revolutionary Spanish prose

Just finished the story for today. I'm in an epistemology class this semester and reading these stories is a helpful introduction into what is otherwise a totally foreign subject to me. I like the concluding thought of this story and want to talk more about it if anyone else does. I also like this bit:
>A slave stole a red ticket, which, when drawn, en- titled him to have his tongue burned This was the same penalty the law imposed for the theft of a lottery ticket Some Babylonians argued that the man deserved the ex- ecutioner’s branding iron because he was a thief; others, more generous, because it was the luck of the draw.
Hope your reading is going well, might have some time to try the Spanish tonight. Any recommendations on what story has the best prose out of those we've already read?

[Anonymous No.10648392]

bump

[Anonymous No.10649057]

>>10625398
From which story is that?

[Anonymous No.10649130]

>>10649057
Tlon

pic related is today's discussion. Arguably one of the most talkable ones yet and all you fucks can say is an empty "ITS MUH FAYVERIT STORY"

[Anonymous No.10649244]

Did you all notice to reference to Kafka?
I thought of this story as an allegory to "man's search for meaning" (not the book) in complexing societies and also social change in general.

>>10649130
Well, then why don't you share your thoughts dipshit? Get a discussion started.
>>10647573
I struggeled to understand what this specific part is trying to convey.

[Anonymous No.10649829]

Was the Company meant to symbolize a God that influences the lives of man in one way or another? How come than at the start did the Company not influence the lives of all, but only those who could afford it. Could it perhaps be that they were the only "believers" and with time new people started believing in it, the "God" started to influence them too. Maybe the "understanding" of the lottery is meant to represent the impossible quest of man to understand his fate and why do things happen to him when in fact it is all a game of chance. Very interesting story, I feel like my thoughts are confused at the moment and I cannot express myself properly. Will have to think about it.

[Anonymous No.10649954]

>>10649244
I think that part, as many bits in his stories, works best as a kind of absurdist joke, you kind of ruin it by explaining it. It’s funny to think of it in terms of means and ends. The end result of the thief’s punishment is ultimately the same, but the way it is perceived and the way he is perceived is a social construct. For some people he is a justly punished thief, for others a revolutionary, the first of a lower caste to participate (unwittingly) in the draw. This is why this moment is an essential turning point in how the system functioned, because no matter for which reason the thief would be punished/rewarded, the die had been cast, the lower classes would always see it as a precedent, so the Company and society in general might as well roll with it.

>>10649829
I think there’s a similarity between this story and Tlön, in both we have a secret society trying to invent or reinvent the world, make it conform to new rules, and the two stories are like two sides of the same coin. Both societies ‘succeed, but in an ironic way each time: in Tlön, the fictional world starts taking over the real world, and once the transformation is complete, in a way the society has ‘succeeded’ in creating a new world ruled by the logic of man, not God, but not as an alternative to the real world, but as a replacement (for better or for worse). In the Lottery, the Company succeeds in taking over, controlling society completely, but the rules of the game become so byzantine, confused and overlapping that there may as well not be any rules at all; as it says towards the end of the story, some people’s actions are seen as hidden acts guided by the company, some are intentionally random or wrong (this itself is an irony), and whether one believes in the existence of the Company or not, the randomness of life manifests itself anyway. You can just choose to believe it’s the company’s doing or not, but the effects are the same (notice here the connection to the thief’s punishment, whether you believe in the ‘game’ or not, his punishment/reward is the same.

In this sense, the story feels like an allegory of the history of religion, and the history of culture, with the end of the story being ‘modernity’. We may believe in God or not, we may believe in the truth or righteousness of hhe system we are part of or not (be it capitalism, communism, democracy, etc., insert favourite ideology here), but ultimately if we accept playing the game (being part of that society), we internalize it, normalize it, the game becomes inextricably linked with our life, it is our life.

[Anonymous No.10650263]

>>10649954
Good post.

[Anonymous No.10650606]

Went a couple of days back and read The Circular Ruins. I don't really feel as if there is much to discuss regarding it. Together with Tlon it can be considered a basic literary introduction into the philosophy of idealism dealing with the mental construction of reality and its frailness.

[Anonymous No.10651396]

>>10623033
BUMP

[Anonymous No.10651762]

>>10651396
>Still more unconventional is Quain’s ‘retrogressive, branching novel’ April March, whose third (and only) part appeared in 1936.
>Even the title is a feeble pun. It does not mean the ‘march of April’ but literally ‘April, March’.

Exceptionally great story imo. Many times genuinely funny. And just before you think "well this story is rather uncomplex for Borges" he slaps the reader in the face with
>Since few of these would-be writers had any capacity for invention, most would have to make do with mimicry. For these ‘deficient writers’, whose name was legion, Quain wrote the eight stories in Statements. Each foreshadows or promises a good plot, which the author then deliberately sabotages. One or two - not the best - hint at two plots. The reader, carried away by vanity, thinks he has invented them. From the third tale, ‘Yesterday’s Rose’, I was ingenious enough to fashion ‘The Circular Ruins’, a story which appears in my book The Garden of Branching Paths.

[Anonymous No.10651998]

>>10649954
>You kind of ruin it by explaining it.
That's our job!

Thanks for outlining the parallels between the lottery and tlön, the idea of god/nature replacing man's world and man replacing god/nature's. I think there's more options to this dynamic, I wonder if Borges will explore them in the subsequent stories to this collection.

A general (and maybe obvious) observation, but I like the way the title of this collection works with the ideas that are explored. Pairing the literary genre of fiction so closely with the fictions that are created and destroyed (either by us, god, or other agents) is helping me to learn about writing and the world simultaneously (like good fiction would) but in a kind of hyper-concious way. It's like I ate somebody's spinal cord or got trepanated. Anyway I'll shut up now until I read today's story.

[Anonymous No.10652018]

PLEASE DON'T DIE I JUST FOUND THIS BREAD

[Anonymous No.10652707]

>>10652018
Ok

[Anonymous No.10652744]

>>10649954

nice, this post actually made me think about the story in an interesting way.

[Anonymous No.10653614]

>>10651762
I coulda come up with that.

[Anonymous No.10654707]

bump

[Anonymous No.10655365]

So, a little note on Herbert Quain since I didn't have time to post yesterday:

As with the others, it's again kind of a joke-story or game-story, evidently self-reflexive in the way the structure of Quain's 'April March' is a 'garden of forking paths', the title of Borges' volume, and the title 'The Secret Mirror' is, in itself, a joke.

I think the theme of the death of the author comes up again when Quain says that 'every European is a writer', and is a slight dig at readers trying to interpret and 'get' every story they read, especially the kind of complex storylines Borges likes to put together that may be read in many ways rather than one 'corect' way.

Finally there's of course a direct reference to The Circular Ruins, a story about creator and creation, and layers of reality. Herbert Quain is perhaps another layer, another side of Borges. Or, of course, considering the way The Circular Ruins ends, maybe Quain is the one writing about Borges.

I'll do another post about Library of Babel since it's one of my favourites.

[Anonymous No.10655620]

Why are the authors that Borges writes so odd and apparently irrelevant? Why are their works so fragmentary? Pierre Menard is described as sort of a nice guy who will fade into obscurity, partially due to the maltreatment of his legacy but also due to the fact that he does weird shit like burn all his drafts and only get through three chapters of a story that is already written. Quain is similar as he too has a partially completed manuscript and is described as being too eager to excite. The only author who is safe from this so far is the author of The Approach to Al-Mu'tasim. Is Borges making a joke of his own failings and shortcomings?
Also if there's so many intelligent little jokes in this collection then why aren't I laughing?
Enjoy today's story.

[Anonymous No.10655624]

I really like the idea, but choosing this work was a big big mistake. Why not start with a classic short English novella. Instead you open up this can of worms on the first try.

[Anonymous No.10656010]

>>10655365
As I was saying, Library of Babel is one of my favourite stories in the collection, and a story with many facets, so, a few thoughts. The first thing to mention is that I find it easiest to make sense of the story from a semiotic perspective. Our universe is made of referents, while our language is made up of symbolic signs (that is, there is no meaningful relationship between the word or the sound 'dog' and a real dog, we just all agree that's what we'll call it).

What I immediately like about the story is that it proposes a world where the symbols are the referents, the universe is made up of code, as a virtual world might be. From this leads an interesting idea: the librarians developed a language from the matter of the universe itself. There is such possibility in our universe - it would be like if we would communicate by lining up a bunch of objects, and you could only say 'I'm sitting down on a chair' by sitting down on a chair, referring directly to the referent, as it were. This, of course, is exactly what is pointed out by the author when he writes towards the end that everything he is writing in his story is already in a book somewhere, he says: 'The certainty that everything is already written negates or makes phantoms of us'. This is the logical extreme of writing in a world where symbols are referents - writing is meaningless because all that could be written already exists. The librarians might as well not exist, since any of their thoughts, ideas and writings already exist as part of the books, the fabric of the universe. I can see how some may read this as a sort of nihilistic take on things, where people's acts are meaningless in a universe that exists for its own sake. But I don't think that's the case, rather it contrasts well with our universe where the human mind can be a beautifully creative thing, coming up with concepts that currently do not exist, willing them into existence.

Finally, here's something that Borges doesn't get into, but that I think is an interesting thought experiment within this universe: what if instead of developing a language made up of the same symbols as those inside the books, the librarians would only communicate by creating paterns of books on the floor of the hexagons? This would be closer to a symbolic system as we know it, the librarians creating a system of communication that is completely separated from the 'mattter' of their universe. I don't have an answer or further explanation for this, it's just something that crossed my mind.

[Anonymous No.10656298]

>>10655624
>Choosing this work was a big big mistake.
Making this post without reading those above it was a big big mistake.

[Anonymous No.10657169]

Let this fucking thread die.

[Anonymous No.10657340]

https://libraryofbabel.info

[Anonymous No.10657679]

>RK9000 the book
What do they eat in there? Eachother? An infinite number of rooms would mean an infinite number of books, but we don't know if there are repeats I guess.
This is my meagre contribution— if anyone else reads today I'm happy to talk.

[Anonymous No.10657698]

>>10657679
Hold on. There's only so much space on the shelves and only so much space in the books so with only 26 letters they would have to be either finite or repeating.

[Anonymous No.10658519]

Has somebody read Funes El Memorioso?

[Anonymous No.10658528]

>>10658519
¿Es mañana, no?

[Anonymous No.10658676]

>>10658519
Yes, what a sweet story. It's a relief to see the labyrinth in its every detail and not be thrown into it for once. What are your thoughts?

[Anonymous No.10659665]

>>10656298
I have been reading a lot of posts complaining about Borges

[Anonymous No.10659676]

Was Borges a Hermetic mystic? Can I get some secrets of the universe by reading his works?

[Anonymous No.10659852]

>>10659665
In the preceding thread and in this one Ficciones was almost unanimously agreed upon as our first reading. Where were you then?
This reading group asks that you read a story a day, usually no more than ten pages, and only if you have the time. The "classic short English novella" will be considered when interest is shown and commitment demonstrated. If all that seems too overwhelming I'd check out /sffg/ or r/eddit.

[Anonymous No.10659868]

>>10659676
>fall off your horse
>achieve perfect memory and god-like insight
Yes.

[Anonymous No.10659951]

Read three stories so far, are the books mentioned within real? If so, this is more of a collected book reviews than collected fictions.

Should have chosen a different book to begin with. The idea is great, but I think you should announce the schedule in advance.

[Anonymous No.10660238]

>>10659951
No, the books and their authors are fictitious, though many other names mentioned are not.
We don't want your advice, only your corroboration; this is meant to be a trial run. We were going to read The Trial and Calvino next, but at this rate it seems like short stories are all we can manage.

[Anonymous No.10660909]

How come the library is infinite when there is a finite number of symbol combinations? This is the part which I don't understand which I also believe is the key to truly getting to the core meaning of the story.

[Anonymous No.10661006]

>>10630294
>>10628722
Much better book than The Nonexistant Knight

[Anonymous No.10661109]

>>10659951
>The idea is great, but I think you should announce the schedule in advance.
Have you read the OP??

[Anonymous No.10662224]

Anyone read today's story yet?

[Anonymous No.10663265]

>>10660909
Because is ciclical, all the possible combinations are going to repeat over and over.

[Anonymous No.10663434]

>>10662224
No time unfortunately, will join again after the weekend. Hope some guys are still aroung then.

[Anonymous No.10663840]

>>10663265
I do understand that it is represented as cyclical, but why would it be cyclical. When there is only a set number of possible combinations why would they repeat themselves over and over again? Would this not amount to mere repetition of what has already been written, hence the library would once again be finite in its contents, but infinite in the space that the contents are set out in.

[Anonymous No.10663861]

>>10663840
I think this ties back into the death of the author concept. A different copy in a different place at a different time deserves an entirely different interpretation. Something like that.

[Anonymous No.10663910]

>>10663861

>I wondered how a book could be infinite. I came up with no other conclusion than that it would have to be a cyclical, or circular, volume - one whose last page was the same as its
first, and with the potential to go round and round for ever.

This quote from The Garden of Branching Paths made me answer my question I believe. I was faced with the same issue as the Englishman. And I believe the answer to both questions are similar, in the same way in which the last page of a book is the same as the first the first volume of a library can also share the same page with the last volume of the library thus making the entire contents cyclical. Seeing that the library is universal every single page contained in any of the books in the library is both the first and last page of some other volumes, therefore, it does not matter which volume you take as a first, there will always be a last that always ties in to the first. This is the cycle that I had trouble understanding, but I believe I do now.

[Anonymous No.10664310]

Can somebody share a Giovanni translation of the second part?

[Anonymous No.10664823]

Borges is awesome and it saddens me reading this thread that a lot of plebs don't get him.

If you read Death and the Compass and it doesn't blow your god damn mind, then you just have straight up awful taste.

[Anonymous No.10664835]

>>10664823
borges is not a begginer read.

[Anonymous No.10664918]

>>10664310
Let's bribe his wife's lawyer to send us the pdf

[Anonymous No.10664924]

>>10664918
dox him**

[Anonymous No.10664926]

>>10664835
Not beginner in what sense? It doesn't take much background knowledge to appreciate his work.