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/lit/ - Literature

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10577669 No.10577669 [Reply] [Original]

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
"Jesus...grew in wisdom and stature before the Lord"
One of the basic attributes of God is knowing everything and these passages clearly indicate that Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) are not omniscient. Meaning the doctrine of the Trinity is false.
"Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered, and having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him"
If Jesus was God, he would have always been perfect, so he couldn't 'become perfect'
"Today I have begotten thee"
This contradicts the idea that he is "eternally begotten"

>> No.10577676

>>10577669
The same way that Christians deal with everything.

>> No.10577733

>>10577676
"It's all a mystery"?

>> No.10577773

>>10577669
Jesus is divine. You extrapolate Meaning from verses that have been cherry picked and do not support the greater message. One thing that may clarify things for you is that Jesus was not just God in a human suit. I’m coming to earth God placed limitations on his incarnation so that he could be fully beside is in our humanity. But it was a limitation he chose.

It really depends on how you define the Trinity.

>> No.10578074

>>10577773
How do you define the trinity

>> No.10578084

>>10577669
It makes perfect sense if you're a hegelian.
Also Christ is simulataneously divine and human dipshit.

>> No.10578104

>>10577773
I have not cherry picked anything. If you truly believe that the bible is its entirety Gods word you need to explain the meaning of these passages. Citing some other passages in John to show what the "greater message" is is just an implicit admission that the bible is contradictory.

>> No.10578115

>>10578084
If he is in fact both wouldn't he automatically be a perfect all-knowing Human?

>> No.10578131

>>10578115
Nah.

>> No.10578138

>>10578131
So God is imperfect?

>> No.10578144

>>10578138
Nah.

>> No.10578163

>>10578144
But Jesus is?

>> No.10578166

He's fully human and fully God

>> No.10578178

>>10578166
Does God know everything?

>> No.10578192

>>10578178
Yes. As we see the present at once, God sees the past, present, and future at once.

>> No.10578208

>>10578192
I guess that is only one aspect of His infinite knowledge

>> No.10578219

>>10578163
He's the perfect human. You are assuming that the best a man can be is a God but the best a man can be is a man without sin.

>> No.10578247

>>10577669
When God decided to appear as a bush, it was a "burning bush that did not burn out." Isn't that a contradiction? How can it burn if it doesn't?

You can read Aquinas, or...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BQSqHrU7ns

>> No.10578345

>>10578247
Because God can manipulate physical reality as He pleases, but can he violate logic?

>> No.10578351

>>10578219
So you're a unitarian?

>> No.10578381
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10578381

Is the concept of the trinity the ultimate brainlet filter?

>> No.10578384

>>10578381
Only in so far as we all brainlets. Every trinitarian admits they don't actually understand what they say they believe.

>> No.10578390

>>10578351
Not the other anon, but no. I am not. I am a Catholic. One being, three incarnations. The human incarnation is still human. Jesus is the word incarnate. He is the son of God. He IS God, but he IS made of mortal flesh and blood.

>> No.10578405

>>10578384
I can’t fully comprehend a shape with a 1000 sides, does this shape therefore not exist? I can partially comprehend it and it logically adds up, sorta like the Trinity.

>> No.10578407

>>10578390
So do you believe the Holy Spirit is omniscient?

>> No.10578418

>>10578405
I'm not saying the trinity doesn't exist. I'm saying Jesus made things inconsistent with the Doctrine.

>> No.10578425

>>10578418
Sorry for the reply which I admit sounded unjustifiably aggressive.
In what way was he inconsistent?

>> No.10578434

>>10578425
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
All 3 synoptic Gospels contain a statement to that effect.
If only the Father knows the time of the end of the world, then the Son and the Holy Spirit don't know, and are thus lesser beings from the Father.

>> No.10578459

>>10577669
The people at the time identified the Holy Spirit and God the Father as the same thing, so by saying “only the Father knows” he isn’t excluding the Spirit, but choosing not to confuse the people.

>> No.10578464

>>10578407
The Father is omniscient. The exact nature of the Holy Spirit is more elusive. It is more aptly described as having the nature or quality of divinity and is seen in the Bible as being the culprit of the Father's Will on Earth. For example, Pentecost.

>> No.10578490

>>10578459
Fair enough, but that two would render the doctrine of the Trinity false.
>>10578464
I think you're speaking heresy from the Catholic perspective. "With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified" means the Holy Spirit is God just the same as them, no?

>> No.10578497

>>10577669
They don't. In my opinion, looking at it unbiasedly, more proof supports that Jesus did not want to be revered as God and that the parts heavily focusing on his identity with God were revisions/interpolations/somehow fraudulent. That's the feeling I get reading it. He seems to have been a mystic/prophet who only called himself "Son of God" at times inasmuch as anyone who develops their capacities for faith, hope, and love, as well as obedience to God, can become a "Son of God". In fact, he even says as much -- the kingdom of heaven is within; whoever does his [Jesus's] Father's works is his brother or sister or mother; "Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High", and so on.

>> No.10578502

>>10578490
No they are all unique entities of the same being known as God. None greater or lesser than the other. Different, yet equal. Serving different yet equally important roles of God.

>> No.10578511

Jesus: preaches modesty, denounces corruption of organized religion, tries to show people that they need to worship G-d and not be distracted by idolatry and greed

Christians: ..... BUILD...... HUGE CHURCH???? TO JESUS????? WORSHIP JESUS?????

>> No.10578515

>>10578502
Isn't omniscience one of God's central attributes?
>>10578511
are you Jewish? i don't mind if you are just curious.

>> No.10578516

>>10578434
See >>10578459 on the Holy Spirit not knowing.

As regards to the fact that Jesus didn’t know, this is harder to explain, but i’ll try.

Since God is a Trinity (One God in three persons) it could be he case that the Father knows one thing to himself, The Son knows 10 things to himself, and the Spirit knows 1000 things, but since they are all God God would know all things.

Another explanation I could give is that since Jesus became fully man he would be limited in intelligence, not until the resurrection would he know all things, as it is described by Phillipians 2:7 “he (Jesus) emptied himself”, Jesus willingly severed his connection to omniscience.

>> No.10578538

>>10578459
were people at the time wrong in that understanding?

>> No.10578543

>>10578515
It is one of the Father's central attributes.

>> No.10578551

>>10578538
According to Trinitarian doctrine yes, the Jews believed in one God (correct) but that God was one person (incorrect). In Trinitarian terms it’s one God in three persons.

>> No.10578555

>>10578515
yes but I do agree with a lot of Jesus's complaints about organized religion at the time, imo he seems like he was a genuinely well-meaning person but I just don't believe he was divine. I wouldn't even mind Christians worshipping but it seems a lot like idolatry to worship and build megachurches to some guy who preached humbleness and modesty over the big dude himself.

>> No.10578556

>>10578511
What's wrong with building churches? You're using money donated by sinners to pay honest people a living wage to build a place to worship God.

>> No.10578564

>>10577669
Is... is that Thomas Sowell?

>> No.10578606

>>10578564
yes is that a problem?
>>10578551
So why would Jesus let them persist in their misunderstanding? this interpretation makes his statement seem highly misleading at best.

>> No.10578616

>>10578606
I mean if garbage econimc theory isn't a problem, than Sowell isn't a problem.

>> No.10578620

>>10578606
By coming out with the Trinity Jesus would have been killed on the spot. He would have said that their beliefs were wrong and put himself on an equal footing with God.

>> No.10578623

>>10578616
not really the place for that discussion but he knows much more about economics than you or I.

>> No.10578628

>>10578620
Good point. That's literally what they accused him of anyways tho.

>> No.10578633

>>10578497
fully human and fully divine

>Jesus did not want to be revered as God
He did all out of humbleness, obedience, and love
one example would be His baptism. There is no need for God to be baptized, but Jesus did so out of obedience, being a good Jew. Too, He had a human will; He did the Father's will instead, His divine will (remember He is fully man and fully God).

>the parts heavily focusing on his identity with God were revisions/interpolations/somehow fraudulent

There are like 6,000 early greek manuscripts and fragments of the NT; you can cross reference all of these to point out teachings or verses that would signal revisions, fraudulently.
The proposition:
>that the parts heavily focusing on his identity with God were revisions/interpolations/somehow fraudulent
is either true or false. Just because it's possible doesn't attest to its likelihood or show that it's true. You gotta back up a huge claim like that.

But, main point, Jesus doesn't seem divine in speech partly because His is so perfect. He is perfectly humble, perfectly obedient.
What of the miracles He does? His are much greater than any prophets. He could command demons to leave too, pretty powerful. Resurrection is among one of the greatest events that add to Jesus having a divine nature.
Another big one is the transfiguration of Jesus Christ. That is far beyond any mere man or prophet.

I'm not telling you it's true or not. I'm saying Christians believe that Jesus was divine, and this is where they get that idea from. Besides, OP's question

>How do Christians deal with all the Bible passages showing Jesus is not divine?
is kind of ridiculous. He's neglected to the idea that Christians believe Jesus Christ to be fully God and fully HUMAN. If Jesus is fully human, of course there are passages that give to how he is fully man.

When discussing the divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ, it's a false dichotomy to say that Jesus is either only divine or only human.
Why not both? There no reason why that cannot be a possibility. There can be this either/or, but there also can be the both/and.

Jesus being both Divine and human is a perfectly acceptable possibility, it is just that OP creates a false ultimatum in his assumption in his question—the assumption that Jesus couldn't possibly be divine and human.

>> No.10578638
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10578638

>>10578511
Jesus did found a church, of course.

>> No.10578643

>>10578633
>the assumption that Jesus couldn't possibly be divine and human.
No such assumption was ever made. Retract your strawman.

>> No.10578648

>>10578516
Good post

>> No.10578656

>>10578497
this is exactly how I see it t b H
Jesus was a cool, devout, understanding, and compassionate guy, just not literally divine

>> No.10578660

>>10578516
>Since God is a Trinity (One God in three persons) it could be he case that the Father knows one thing to himself, The Son knows 10 things to himself, and the Spirit knows 1000 things, but since they are all God God would know all things.
So this theory would be that if the Sons Knowledge=S, the Spirits knowledge=H, and the Father's=F, all knowledge consists of S+H+F?

>> No.10578663

>>10578556
>>10578511
yeah, and also, Catholics(ones with the awesome huge beautiful churches) gather for Mass in the kingdom of Heaven. Mass is where Earth and Heaven meet. If we are in the kingdom of Heaven, why not try to make it look like it? Read Revelations, that book describes Mass in Heaven, and we try to put ourselves in that mindset with physical things(churches and more) because obviously we dont have any heavenly things here, only physical. The huge churches and many things is really man's attempt to mimic the Mass in Heaven(as described in Revelations).

>> No.10578664

>>10578628
He came out with it to the Jewish leaders though (“Before Abraham was, I am” and “I and the Father am one”) and they tried to kill him but he slipped through their fingers.

>> No.10578669

>>10578543
Doesn't that make the Father greater than the other two persons? if He knows everything about the final plan for the universe and the Son and Holy Spirit aren't in on it? That seems to make them inferior.

>> No.10578672

>>10578664
Right so
this explanation doesn't jive>>10578620

>> No.10578674

>>10578643
>deal with
His question is loaded. He is under the impression that Jesus somehow cannot be divine because of the passages that reveal Jesus's human nature.

He is either under the assumption that Jesus cannot be divine or he is ignorant that Jesus can be both divine and human

>> No.10578681

>>10578674
>you're just ignorant
lel

>> No.10578687

>>10578674
Is ignorance compatible with divinity?

>> No.10578692

>>10578660
In a sense yes, i’m not a theologian or a philosophy student, just a layman so I probably won’t be able to explain it properly.

What I am trying to get at is how since God is three persons there is a flexibility to be had in the persons of the Trinity. Such as how Jesus is uniquely begotten of the Father and how the Holy Spirit is uniquely proceeding from the Father.

>> No.10578700

>>10578669
Not necessarily. Maybe because you are human and you prize knowledge you cannot have you see it as a greater power. Never forget to account for one's own subjective judgement.

>> No.10578711

>>10578692
What do you make of this passage?
"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered."
Seems to me that omniscience on the part of the Father is the implication.

>> No.10578717

>>10578672
Let’s back this up a bit before I get muddled
In the instance of “only the father knows” (Matthew 24) Jesus was privately alone with his disciples, so there would be no threat of being executed. To avoid confusing them he avoided using Trinitarian language.

>> No.10578747

>>10578711
I fail to see any sort of implication here.
Jesus was talking to a crowd of thousands, a crowd of Jews raised in the one God as one person. Jesus being a very down to Earth guy told them that God (The Father) knows every hair on their heads but doesn’t rule out his own omniscience.

>> No.10578755

>>10578717
This explanation seems rather bizarre to me. Jesus was constantly doing and saying things that confused even his closest followers. Surely this would have been an opportune time to explain the Trinity to them. If the Holy Spirit does in fact know these things, his statement seems in retrospect highly misleading.
>>10578747
The Gospel's explicitly deny Jesus' omniscience elsewhere.

>> No.10578756

>>10578687
wat
I was refer to OP, sorry for the confusion

>> No.10578760

>>10578681
>doesn't know what ignorant means
>runs to the colloquial definition

lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular

>> No.10578766

>>10578760
yes and to others, you're the ignorant one because they believe you're the one who lacks the real info my man

>> No.10578796

>>10578755
They did find out. It’s called Pentecost.

And the omniscience is due to the fact that Jesus willingly separated himself from the Divine source when he became man.

>> No.10578798

>>10578669
Imagine being Stephan Hawking without your fancy chair. Does it really matter how much you know at that point?

>> No.10578799

>>10577669
WTF IM an agnostic atheist now
OP, this has got to be the least intelligent post in the history of /lit/

>> No.10578821

>>10578796
>And the omniscience is due to the fact that Jesus willingly separated himself from the Divine source when he became man.
I thought he was the Divine source.

>> No.10578823

>>10578755
Also is the fact that Jesus knows things that only he knows “His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself”(Revelation 19:12). So God doesn’t know the name written down?

>> No.10578828

>>10578823
Revelation is not meant to be taken literally friend.

>> No.10578835

>>10578823
>no one knows but he himself
>he doesn't know
literally what ???

>> No.10578836

>>10578821
Jesus is begotten of the Father so no. God is three persons, these three persons are connected to this divine source so to speak and hence are God, Jesus willingly separates himself from this source when he became Man.

>> No.10578839

>>10578104
if you're a true Christian (Catholic) then you believe in a divinely guaranteed interprer

>> No.10578845

it doesnt say anywhere that God isnt a man capable of evil always irks me when people bring up fucking terminal illness or some fuck does god care if you die painfully?

>> No.10578848

>>10578828
Revelation isn’t literal but it conveys truth, and in this one person (Jesus) has a name only he can read. So since God in you view cannot read it doesn’t this mean God is not omniscient?

>> No.10578859

>>10578828
So the resurrection of the dead (as professed in the Apostles and Nicene Creed), and the ultimate triumph of God over evil isn’t meant to be taken literal?

>> No.10578923

>>10578848
The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are the same God, do you get that?

>> No.10578967

>>10578859
Big, overarching truths of the faith that also have foundation in the teaching of Christ himself can be taken at more of a face value, but this is hardly the same discussion as using a small passage with poetic imagery as an attempt to prove that the holy Trinity is inconsistent. Bit of a red herring don't you think?

>> No.10580198

bump

>> No.10580205

>>10577676
Yes, total obfuscation. But moreover we all do it, its part of being a mature adult.

>> No.10580206

>>10577669
Jesus only went full divine after the resurrection.

>> No.10580232
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10580232

>>10578859
Yeah, that's right

>> No.10580485

>>10578967
Mark 2:5-7
John 10:30
Matthew 28:19
These are more than just red herrings.