/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.10287666]

What are the philosophical foundations of multiculturalism and cultural relativism?

[Anonymous No.10287682]

>>10287666
"The goyim must die" - Shekelberg. Also your demon trips confirm. BEGONE

[Anonymous No.10287747]

>>10287666
He looks like a soyboy

[Anonymous No.10287752]

I hate preppies so much.

[Anonymous No.10287761]

>>10287666
I'm honestly quite unsure, I'd like to blame something in particular, but I don't think it can be. MacIntyre says that the modern ideology comes from 3 philosophers, Marx, Kant and Nietzsche, the first made us believe in distribution of wealth and the big state, the second that morality is independent from religion and is abstract in form of various rights and the third that we ought to reject Christianity. All of these may be said to be malformations of what they actually said and that may be so, but is not important for defecting where they appeared and what made them appealing. This is in his mind all related with the failure of the enlightenment to replace ideology with reason.

[Anonymous No.10287765]

The demons of the goetia.

[Anonymous No.10287767]

>>10287682
Fun fact: 666 is not a symbol of Satan or demons, but rather the number of The Beast of Revalations. Even more intersting... in the original Greek translation of The Bible, this is a symbol rather than a number. That symbol being the symbol of Jesus Christ.

[Anonymous No.10287773]

>stereotypical unpleasant BWL faggot
>a retarded untertan-ish numale
Well, color me überrascht.

[Anonymous No.10287786]

>>10287666

According to the neoreactionaries, it's the Enlightenment itself, but thought it makes sense in some ways I can't quite see that. I'd say the Industrial revolutions and the following wars created the basis for people wanting to merge into a single tribe, mainly due to economical pressure (increasing wealth concentration and productivity is easier if you have a bigger population under your wing) but also due to an overall sentiment of bitterness towards the rest of history; whereas the Renaissance looked at the past selecting parts to exalt and others to learn from, modernism and post-modernism looks at the past with hatred and disgust, wanting not to be any of that, regardless of consequences. This bitterness, greatly aided by capital and by technology, is probably a minor role of what started driving us into globalization and mindless cultural mingling. But the main stage, will always be of capital and the rampant transformation of other kinds of value into economic value.

[Anonymous No.10287787]

>>10287666
Think you need to explain what you mean by those terms first- there are loads of possibilities.

[Anonymous No.10287794]

>>10287666
Hierarchy must be established by a measurement. The nation was once such a measurement. With technological progress, the nation is no longer a valid measurement.

[Anonymous No.10287795]

[Anonymous No.10287797]

>>10287786
>But the main stage, will always be of capital and the rampant transformation of other kinds of value into economic value.

I believe that this lies at the core, albeit hardcore Marxists and pragmatists will probably argue that there is little value besides economic value.

[Anonymous No.10287802]

God I wish he would wrap those lips around my cock

[Anonymous No.10287814]

In my opinion, it's not really founded in theory.

Seems to me more like a coping mechanism aimed at giving moral and ideological value to 1. the international movement of labour that came along with post-1950's capitalism and 2. being the least like Hitler possible (which is essentially the value system of the west).

So, more of a reaction to historical circumstances than an attempt at proactive design of historical circumstances

[Anonymous No.10287823]

>tfw you realise that the alt-right, white nationalism, Trump etc is an entirely logical and predictable result of postmodern scepticism

[Anonymous No.10287835]

>>10287823
I believe these things have more to do with feasible economic realities than anything else.

[Anonymous No.10287848]

>>10287814
Makes sense for multiculturalism, but not so sure about cultural relativism. I'm not entirely sure what OP means by that, but assuming it's something like 'each culture has value on its own terms and they can't be objectively ranked', that seems a pretty logical result of post-Enlightenment scepticism. I.e. When the attempts to produce a 'science' of society and human behaviour obviously failed, you're left with relativism.

[Anonymous No.10287938]

>>10287666
I would venture a guess:

The 1960-70s civil rights movement in the USA. See also the abolition of slavery.
The sexual and counter-culture revolution in the 70s. See also vietnam war.
The universal declaration of human rights by the united nations post ww2. See also religious and ethnic tolerance in post-reformation and imperial era (to sustain empires; even alexander the great promoted diversity in order to create his hold over his conquests).
Postmodernist thinking in the 80s and 90s.
The noble savage myth.

[Anonymous No.10287954]

>>10287666
Rousseau
Most modern ideology is based on the flawed assumptions that
1. Man is fundamentally good
2. Men are fundamentally equal
3. Society is a mechanism for corrupting man and creating inequality
4. As man is fundamentally good, man's desires are also fundamentally good

[Anonymous No.10287959]

>>10287954
>man is fundamentally good
what was he drinking?

[Anonymous No.10287963]

Whatever it is that Reagan and Clinton used to justify their policies.

[Anonymous No.10287985]

>I don't understand borders

I wish I could cut a big hole in him and put some maggots in it

[Anonymous No.10287992]

>>10287666
>I don't understand something, therefore it should be removed.

Ladies and gentlemen, the mind of a millennial.

[Anonymous No.10287998]

>>10287666
Karl Popper

[Anonymous No.10288028]

>>10287959
Pure unadulterated Frenchness

[Anonymous No.10288136]

>>10287767
I think the oldest mentioning of any numbers connected to Satan say 616, but I haven't looked closely at that.

[Anonymous No.10288164]

>>10287998
Elaborate.

[Anonymous No.10288175]

>>10287761
>MacIntyre says that the modern ideology comes from 3 philosophers, Marx, Kant and Nietzsche, the first made us believe in distribution of wealth and the big state, the second that morality is independent from religion and is abstract in form of various rights and the third that we ought to reject Christianity. All of these may be said to be malformations of what they actually said and that may be so, but is not important for defecting where they appeared and what made them appealing. This is in his mind all related with the failure of the enlightenment to replace ideology with reason.

Which book of MacIntyre should I read to get more of that good shit bud?

[Anonymous No.10288189]

>>10288028
swissness*

[Anonymous No.10288191]

There isn't a complicated conspiracy. First world nations are attempting to strengthen their economies by importing workers. Multiculturalism is a meme they spread to facilitate the integration of culturally distinct people. The same thing happened in Rome when the leaders talked about the virtue of cooperation between different cultural and racial groups, an economic necessity for them since Rome was a cultural nonhomogenous entity.

Modern multiculturalist policies are an extention of the neo liberal goal. To strip away from all goods resources everything but the raw economic value. Culture isn't important, they tell you. Only the good functioning of markets is

[Anonymous No.10288197]

Nominalism

[Anonymous No.10288201]

>>10287761
>All of these may be said to be malformations
No, it's literally made up shit that doesn't have to do anything with any of those three and whoever came up with this has to have shit for brains.

[Anonymous No.10288202]

>>10287761
>Marx, Kant and Nietzsche, the first made us believe in distribution of wealth

Stop reading here

[Anonymous No.10288203]

>>10288164
The meme of the "open society"

[Anonymous No.10288217]

>>10288203
Popper, however, also warned against “tolerance towards the intolerant” and, in general, was more interested in science than politics

[Anonymous No.10288224]

>>10288217
>"tolerance towards the intolerant"
yeah white people are intolerant we need to get rid of them

[Anonymous No.10288241]

>>10288224
This anti-white drivel is no more than a fashionable rhetoric, adopted by contemporary Tumblr revolutionaries

No serious philosopher advocates this hatred

[Anonymous No.10288247]

everybody should just stay forever in his own goddamn village and fuck his relatives amirite?
fuck yeah!

[Anonymous No.10288253]

>>10288217
It doesn't matter what he argued for in this case, what matters is what his proponents are taking from his works

[Anonymous No.10288270]

>>10287998

If anything, Popper has failed in both his endeavors in life (establishing means for tolerance and liberalism, and re-establishing the scientific method).

People in Academia are grossly positivist, going as far as justifying some kind of twisted "empirical positivism" where data somehow implies ontology.

As for society itself, Popper failed to realize democracy would indeed lead to an "open society" but only insofar as it is completely deterritorialized and absolutely devoid of face-to-face cultural interplay. He envisioned a future of rampant liberalism and globalization yet did not acknowledge this was synonym for a multi-dimensional panopticon where capital engulfs everything under its thirsty eyes. Tolerance for the intolerant is preached selectively in the precise paradoxical and insidious way he told everyone not to be, and the ironically open society closes itself on its edges leaving no direction for anyone to diverge into: the world becomes its own pocket universe of ever increasing entropy, with freedom for the collective becoming totalitarianism for the individual.

It's not that Popper caused any of this to spread, he simply failed to correctly identify his key points as the very things causing the spread, like the moth clinging to the warm of the lamp. But who could stop this development after all?

[Anonymous No.10288271]

>>10287666
Why is his smile a frown?

[Anonymous No.10288282]

>>10288241
>No serious philosopher advocates this hatred
*ahem*

[Anonymous No.10288286]

>>10288253
Popper had little influence in the political sphere

SJWs use poorly understood French post-structuralism to “back” their demands, not Popper

[Anonymous No.10288293]

>>10288286
its more straight up structuralism that the sjws use but yeah

i wonder if they realize that their whole ideology is based on the social science version of astrology

[Anonymous No.10288294]

>>10288271
He can't wait to experience the fascinating cuckold in real life.

[Anonymous No.10288298]

>>10288270
In defense of Popper, he wrote as early as in the 1940s, when dominant paradigms were Marxism and National Socialism, both severely flawed and dangerous ideologies, against which democratic liberalism had to be defended.

In the 2010s, while we still face many problems, the open societies of Popper arguably brought the best results in every sphere of life.

[Anonymous No.10288304]

>>10288282
You never opened a book by Derrida, did you?

>>1028829
Structuralism is one of the best approaches in the humanities tbqh.

[Anonymous No.10288306]

>>10288286
Politicans don't talk about différance or dispositif in their speeches of accepting economic migrants from Africa and embracing multiculturalism, they talk about the Open Society.

[Anonymous No.10288313]

>>10288282
>Derrida
>Serious philosopher

[Anonymous No.10288336]

>>10288306
They use general ideas of humanism and tolerance which predate Popper by centuries and can be found in Locke, Prussian Protestantism and whatnot.

[Anonymous No.10288345]

>>10287666
Why does the elite want race mixing so badly?
Why do they care about boarders when they own everything inside and outside of them?

[Anonymous No.10288352]

>>10288345
There is no broad “conspiracy of the elites”. Its simple economic necessity that caused countries like Germany, the UK, US and Sweden to attract as many immigrants as possible.

[Anonymous No.10288362]

>>10288352
immigration in sweden is such an economic disaster that the politicians can't even talk about supposed benefits anymore, but have had to replace their justifications with appeals to morality instead

[Anonymous No.10288366]

>>10288352
I know I'm not mong. I just want to see what they believe.

[Anonymous No.10288379]

>>10287666
Multiculturalism and cultural relativism are mutually exclusive, though. The former wants to subsume all culture under a post-Protestant hegemony, and reduce cultural differences to innocent private fetishes beneath a totalizing secular humanism. Cultural relativism would envision distinct cultures as genuinely distinct.

In other words multiculturalism envisions multiple cultures in one space, which is destructive to their genuine distinctions, and so is a kind of absolutism.

[Anonymous No.10288387]

>>10287666
Post-modernism and neo-marxism.

[Anonymous No.10288393]

>>10287802
He probably would if you told him you were a refugee.

[Anonymous No.10288401]

>>10288362
Its not as simple as welfare spending and unemployment data. In some aspects, immigration may have had positive results

[Anonymous No.10288406]

>>10288352
>>10288362
Correction. It's to attract as much hardworking and intelligent immigrants as possible so they will not be a burden on the system and contribute in the end. All immigration must be merit based instead of free movement. Europe's problem is that all the "immigrants" are from Africa. Most asians community such as the Viets, seem to integrate very well wherever they may settle.

[Anonymous No.10288407]

>>10287666
He looks rather Jewish.

That also answers your question.

[Anonymous No.10288421]

>>10288352
>There is no conspiracy of the elites
>it was simple Economic necessity

Tell me, who is going to win, and who is going to lose given the clear alternative option of subsidizing an increased birth rate?

[Anonymous No.10288427]

>>10288282
i really REALLY want to take this bait, but I won't.

[Anonymous No.10288429]

>>10288406
Thats true. Assimilation is a problem Americans don't really experience like Europe does. Our immigrants come from a traditional Roman Catholic background which has its roots in European culture.

[Anonymous No.10288432]

>>10288352
I've read an article in the NYT about Canada's immigration policy which was designed to divide the electorate which until then was basically english and french. Immigrants don't give a fuck about Quebec's sovereignty for instance. The finality of such a move is probably still an economic one (an unified Canada is better for business) but it's still a bit more than "simple economic necessity" in my opinion.
I think there are two camps in favor of such immigration policies: the ones who plan to make money off it and the ones that wants it for ideological reasons (they could be good soldiers for the revolution, refugees welcome, demographic and cultural subversion, etc...). The latter are the useful idiots

[Anonymous No.10288441]

>>10288432
I can more or less confirm this. Quebec has been heavily resisting the English influence of Canada, but in 2017 they aren't allowed to resist Muslim influence lest they be seen as raycis. Canada is essentially colonizing Quebec with refugees and it's working

[Anonymous No.10288450]

>>10288421
The government will. Instead of shelling out with money they don't have to have an increased workforce twenty years down the road, whilst increasing the number of welfare recipients, they will just take in people who are of working age, who need work, and are somewhat already experienced. Oh yea and they will begin contributing tax revenue as soon as they arrive.

[Anonymous No.10288454]

>>10288421
>subsidizing an increased birth rate

Not truly an equivalent, since kids cost the state a lot of money. These days, people only enter the work force at 25-29. Most of them get more in government services than they pay in taxes.

Immigrants, however, immediately stimulate the economy by paying taxes and consuming.

[Anonymous No.10288461]

>>10288432
The motives of Canada differ from those elsewhere. Canada is in the luxurious position of choosing its immigrants. They dont get the illegal Mexicans and hungry African youths, they get well-behaved Azns and highly skilled Indians.

[Anonymous No.10288528]

>>10288429
You mean South Americans?
They also contribute thicc women, food, and latin pop. All of which are extremely popular.

Can a connection be drawn between their cultural basis and their role in America today?

[Anonymous No.10288537]

>>10288528
The truth about the USA is that its the most universal, easiest-to-integrate-into society in the World, because its built upon universal, common denominators: the search for happiness, wealth, pleasure, physical beauty.

[Anonymous No.10288583]

>>10288537
>the amount of brainletism in this post

[Anonymous No.10288601]

>>10287666
why are jewish lips so disgusting?

[Anonymous No.10288603]

>>10288583
Its the truth, has been from the beginning. This is the melting pot mentality.

[Anonymous No.10288607]

>>10288583
he's right though, the US is a culturally barren capitalist materialist wasteland. there are no real values there to adapt to. Just buy stuff and eat.

[Anonymous No.10288618]

>>10288607
>culturally barren
Is that why we've produced the most and best art in the world for the past century or so?

[Anonymous No.10288622]

>>10288607
Its not culture barren, though. In a sense, the “post-Protestant”, utilitarian marketplace of rational, hedonistic subjects IS culture. You dont perceive it as such, because you see it as a given.

[Anonymous No.10288623]

>>10288537
Very reductionist viewpoint mate. Are you american?

[Anonymous No.10288627]

>>10288189
Swiss nationality is a meme.

[Anonymous No.10288636]

>>10288618

>Comprehensive list of american literary writers of worth

Herman Melville

[Anonymous No.10288651]

>>10288636
The majority of art for the past century has not been books.

[Anonymous No.10288652]

>>10288618
The delusion, you produced entertainment not art.

[Anonymous No.10288656]

>>10287666
There are no multiculturalists or relativists, relativism is just a mask for liberals/lefties when they want to play a conservative game. Go over to India and argue against castes and you will see all of the multicultural relativists tell you that you're "violently imposing western notions on our culture" or whatever.

[Anonymous No.10288669]

>>10288618
European film is superior. European painting is also superior but not by much. American music is the best, I'll give you that. Dunno about literature.
>>10288652
Please go spout your 15yo fake deep platitudes somewhere else.

[Anonymous No.10288672]

>>10288652
If it's not entertaining, it's not art. We produce art and copious amounts it annually along with Japan.

America > Japan > Europe in the art department. Deal with it.

[Anonymous No.10288676]

>>10288622
>rational consumer meme
>in america of all places

[Anonymous No.10288685]

>>10288672
dumb weebposter

[Anonymous No.10288692]

>>10288607
>the US is a culturally barren capitalist materialist wasteland
dude you have serious problems with your worldview if you write off a massive nation with over 325 million people because they enjoy one of the highest standards of living of all time

[Anonymous No.10288699]

>>10288669
>European film is superior.
lmao

[Anonymous No.10288700]

>>10288669
>dunno about literature
Welcome to /lit/ ;)

[Anonymous No.10288704]

>>10288685
I don't think you know what weeaboo means.

[Anonymous No.10288705]

>>10288692
America has a fascinating high culture, with some of the very best movies, books, comics originating there, but the popular culture with overblown sports, Miley Cyrus and consorts, superficial communication and dating is simply cancer.

[Anonymous No.10288715]

>>10288700
I meant "I can't really tell which is superior because they're both very good and I don't know enough about american lit so I don't feel confident in making a judgement".
Ok?
Ok
>>10288699
lmao xd btfo lol rekt

[Anonymous No.10288720]

>>10287761
This doesn't make any sense at all. Marx was not the first to propose redistribution of wealth (and nigga do you even know what fucking ABSOLUTISM was? Marx was arguing for THE END of the state), Kant's whole morality depens on a immanent source which is for all intents and purposes god and Nietzsche was not the first at all to reject christianity (idk who it is but I don't think even Spinoza qualifies).

[Anonymous No.10288722]

>>10288705
This. I forget that Europeans probably think when Americans talk about their culture they're referring to the trash pop social media culture. Thing is, trash culture is still culture even if it's trash (and sometimes trash is enjoyable, like trash genre fiction) and that's just a testament to exactly how multilayered America is culturally.

[Anonymous No.10288730]

>>10288669
>>10288672
Go be mad somewhere else. America's artistic production is just a gigantic meme. It's dumbed down forms of arts designed to appeal to as many consumers as possible.
The early 20th century was okay for America but it was also the case with most european countries. Cinema didn't wait for americans to be great and while americans did produce some great movies it all went to shit pretty fast once Hollywood became a quasi monopoly. They also still can't into literature, something Chateaubriand noticed 200 years ago.
America dominates now that non american countries do not produce anything of worth, that doesn't mean american "art" is quality art.

[Anonymous No.10288732]

>>10287797
I very much doubt any marxist would disagree with that, a huge lot of marxists have made the exact same point. It sounds like you've never dealt with materialism outside of biased sources and your very own imagination.

[Anonymous No.10288735]

>>10288699
t. pleb

[Anonymous No.10288738]

>>10288722
I would say that in Europe, more people (percentually) are interested in the high culture at all, while in the US, its a rarity to have intellectual interests

The existence of the continental philosophical tradition probably makes us (Europeans) feel smarter as well

[Anonymous No.10288741]

Deterritorialization.

[Anonymous No.10288746]

>>10288730
>dumbed down
It's optimized for a society with a stronger military than yours. Get it straight.

[Anonymous No.10288752]

>>10288705
>high culture
>comics
maybe /lit/ is too advanced for me

[Anonymous No.10288753]

The strongest argument for American anti-intellectualism is their President and their political "culture" in general. Zero content.

[Anonymous No.10288754]

>>10288636
Henry James too. Though he basically counts as British
>>10288651
>implying anyone still listens to jazz

[Anonymous No.10288759]

>>10288730
Please explain how stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll3CMgiUPuU is "designed to appeal to as many consumers as possible". I'm not the guy saying that American high-culture has been the best for the past century but it's undeniable that they have produced a lot of good shit.

[Anonymous No.10288775]

>>10288738
Europeans are generally more old school. Lots of Europe has not been graced by the touch of modern American society yet (the social structure of the cities on the coasts and in Texas). This is why the philosophical tradition is stronger in Europe and without a doubt superior, and on average you have more literary-minded people there. However, the "literary-minded" are becoming a relic, and will eventually be consumed and made obsolete entirely, because the American way is stronger and dominates other cultures (and science of course will contribute to this fate as well). Within the value system of American culture, high culture is not synonymous with the European literary culture, and American culture is not wrong, it is simply different and values strength above all. It would benefit from absorbing that European literary culture to some extent but would be reduced if the vice versa happened.

[Anonymous No.10288777]

>>10288722
I like how you guys often try turning a shit property into a good one by adding "a testament to" in front of it.
>our country is infested by niggers
It's a testament to diversity!
>our economy features third-world rates of wealth distribution
It's a testament to american spirit!
>our society is a deeply fragmented on almost every intellectual plane and shares little to no common ideals beyond love for excess and saluting the flag
It's a testament to multilayerness!

[Anonymous No.10288778]

>>10288759
Because it's only american lower culture that dominated the 20th century and the current century, not american high culture

[Anonymous No.10288782]

>>10288775
>American culture is not wrong, it is simply different and values strength above all

Social Darwinism, basically.

[Anonymous No.10288787]

>>10288777
>our military is stronger and we produce more and better art
It's a testament to all those things working, even if some could be improved.

[Anonymous No.10288790]

>>10288753
>zero content
Backdoor collusion, populism, and television news headlines are contemptible but they aren't something you should just ignore either.

The U.S. is a big place and you would be better off by learning the many nuances to regional politics instead of dismissing it outright.

[Anonymous No.10288794]

>>10287666
Kikes

[Anonymous No.10288795]

>>10288775
>Europeans are generally more old school. Lots of Europe has not been graced by the touch of modern American society yet (the social structure of the cities on the coasts and in Texas)

What is the specific social structure there you refer to?
I have also noticed this difference in philosophical approach. I would say that American culture is more about "having", European culture more about "existing". Americans see their life as complete as soon as they have everything they want; Europeans ruminate about what existing means at all.

I find this distinction fascinating, because, at the end of the day, Americans are basically ancestors of Western thought, of liberalism and Protestantism.

Where did we grow apart so much?

[Anonymous No.10288823]

>>10288787
>our military is stronger
whatever helps you sleep after getting pozzed by a nog in the jail, amerimutt

[Anonymous No.10288826]

>>10288795
>Where did we grow apart so much?
Since the very beginning. The pilgrims that came to the Americas fled Europe to escape the Church, which at the time was the dominating intellectual elite. Not wanting to subjugate themselves to an intellectual elite that they felt did not improve their standard of living, they rebelled and sought to found their own nation. From the start, the US was based on an anti-intellectual attitude.

There are positives and negatives to that. The positives being of course that we are stronger militarily. More adaptive, more practical, also more creative. But that makes Americans stubborn and short-sighted. Hence why there's many sociopolitical issues in the States these days.

[Anonymous No.10288828]

I just don't understand the push for multiculturalism. I mean, I'm not a hateful person, but it seems pretty reasonable to think that almost everyone prefers living within their own culture and doesn't just want everything to be multiculutralized.

[Anonymous No.10288829]

>>10287767
I feel different......
I
I feel.... A S C E N D E D

[Anonymous No.10288836]

>>10288826
>There are positives and negatives to that. The positives being of course that we are stronger militarily.
pretty sure that america is stronger militarily because you've got a population 2/3rds the size of europe and an unspoiled country bigger than europe, alongside a cultural affinity for brain drain, plus now the reliance of europe on big brother USA to take care of military matters so they're barely trying