/clas/ - Classical Greek and Roman Literature Thread

[Anonymous No.10287149]

>classics that you are reading right now
>expected future readings
>interesting scholarship you’ve come across, old and new

START WITH THE GREEKS
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0099/17/1503236647667.jpg
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0098/47/1501831593974.jpg

RESUME WITH THE ROMANS
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0080/46/1463433979055.jpg
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0086/97/1478569598723.jpg

ONLINE RESOURCES
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/home.html
https://pleiades.stoa.org/
https://plato.stanford.edu/

THREAD THEME
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6-0Cz73wwQ

[Anonymous No.10287155]

>>10287149

Welcome to the first installment of /clas/. Hopefully, this can become an enduring thing on /lit/!

Possible ways of improving the thread:
>Suggest any idea not related which may make /clas/ better
>Suggest useful links to free sources/scholarship or good websites to learn classical language
>Suggest useful links to free sources/scholarship or good websites to learn classical language
>Suggest links to websites useful for learning Greek/Latin or to study classics
>Learning Ancient Languages Charts
>Greek and Roman Scholarship Charts

[Anonymous No.10287186]

How was he so perfect, lads?

[Anonymous No.10287221]

It includes more than just greek and roman works, but here's a pretty good classical reading list.

http://www.greatconversation.com/10-year-reading-plan

Would also suggest "How to read a book"

[Anonymous No.10287234]

>>10287149
I'd like to read some roman or greek lyric poetry. I tried translations of Catullus, but I'm not sure its what I want right now. Any recs?

[Anonymous No.10287237]

>>10287186

Cicero did nothing wrong.

[Anonymous No.10287304]

>>10287186

>tfw you want to be a comfy philosopher but you also want to save the Republic

[Anonymous No.10287336]

Op isn't a faggot, he is a god among dwarves

OnLine Resources and Translations:

http://www.mqdq.it/public/indici/autori
http://www.attalus.org/info/sources.html
http://www.attalus.org/translate/index.html
http://digiliblt.lett.unipmn.it/index.php (Site in Italian)
http://www.library.theoi.com/ (Translations)
https://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/a_chron.html (Site in Latin)
https://droitromain.univ-grenoble-alpes.fr/
http://www.earlymedievalmonasticism.org/Corpus-Scriptorum-Ecclesiasticorum-Latinorum.html (CSEL)
http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/POxy/ (Oxyrhynchus Papyri)
http://db.edcs.eu/epigr/epi.php?s_sprache=en (Epigraphy)
http://epigraphy.packhum.org/ (Ephigraphy)
http://papyri.info/

Okay. /clas/
I need your help:
Where can I find the Greek text of Aristotles' "History of Animals"?

[Anonymous No.10287361]

>>10287149
how is the Mythology by Edith Hamilton?

[Anonymous No.10287370]

Lets make some charts. What order do you think Plato's dialogues should be read? what other reading do you think are useful for understanding him? Here's the current order i was thinking of:

Group 1: Virtue-Ethics
Read in order:
Euthyphro
Apology
Crito
Phaedo
Then read following in any order:
Ion
Laches
Lysis
Meno

Group 2: The Sophists
Read in order:
Lesser Hippias
Greater Hippias
Euthydemus
Gorgias
Protagoras

Group 3: Intermediate dialogues
Read in any order:
Cratylus
Phaedrus
Symposium
Philebus

Group 4: Harder Dialogues
Read in Order:
Parmenides
Theaetetus
Sophist
Statesman
Republic

Group 5: Later Dialogues
Read in order:
Timaeus
Critias
Laws

[Anonymous No.10287372]

What book/language course will help me achieve a reading knowledge of greek?

[Anonymous No.10287373]

>>10287361

I like Karoly Kerenyi The Gods of the Greeks and the Heroes of the Greeks more.
It may be a bit longer, but I think they are good reads, well-informed and not too difficult.

[Anonymous No.10287386]

>>10287336

Thanks anon, these links are great!!
I have searched for the text a bit, but couldn't find anything on libgen and scihub. Apparently, there is no doi for the loebs... But it may pop up on libgen at a certain point.
Otherwise, do you have access to the TLG or to the Loeb Library via some university resources?

[Anonymous No.10287399]

>>10287370
In this guide can we recommend better versions of texts than the ones already here?
In regards to the Recommended Prerequisite Reading, to make a controversial claim, I agree that Fagles is adequate for a first encounter with Homer.
However, can we replace the Penguin Warner of Thucydides with the objectively superior Landmark edition:
https://www.amazon.com/Landmark-Thucydides-Comprehensive-Guide-Peloponnesian/dp/0684827905/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1511088853&sr=8-1&keywords=landmark+thucydides

Also, The Oxford World Classics First Philosophers is fine, but it would be helpful for a guide for people who want to seriously study Greek Philosophy to at least be aware that the following, far superior edition exists:
https://www.amazon.com/Texts-Early-Greek-Philosophy-Presocratics/dp/0521608422/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1511088914&sr=1-3&keywords=presocratics+cambridge

Big fan of whats happening here, and I'm excited for the future of /clas/. I think that here we could recreate the two Greek Guides linked in OP that frequently circulate /lit/. They recommend a lot of inferior translations, not particularly helpful scholarship and skip a lot of important texts such as Pindar and the Homeric Hymns.

A thread like this could certainly create a far superior chart to the ones currently circulating /lit/ and I would love to help contribute to that here.

[Anonymous No.10287407]

>>10287386
No. I can't access.

[Anonymous No.10287409]

>>10287370

Good disposition, I'd just change a couple of things:

Group 1: Virtue-Ethics
Read in order:
Euthyphro
Apology
Crito
Phaedo
Then read following in any order:
Ion
Laches
Lysis
Meno

Group 2: Intermediate Dialogues
Read in order:
Lesser Hippias
Greater Hippias
Euthydemus
Protagoras
Gorgias
Read in any order:
Cratylus
Phaedrus
Symposium

Group 4: Platonic Core
Republic
Timaeus

Group 5: Harder Dialogues
Read in Order:
Sophist
Statesman
Theaetetus
Philebus
Parmenides

Group 5: Later Dialogues
Read in order:
Critias
Laws


I've moved the Philebus because it is among the later dialogues, and put the Republic and the Timaeus together in a separate group because the second starts when the first ends, and is meant to continue its discussion.

I was uncertain to move the Lysias together with Phaedrus and Symposium for a "love dialogues" group...

How about secondary literature? I am studying Plato in Italian, so I know mostly about Italian scholarship... What are good introductions in english? Is the Cambridge Companion series any good? Thomas Taylor Life and Writings of Plato?

[Anonymous No.10287416]

>>10287407

Shit.. I'll see if I can manage to download something, but the Loeb website is a bitch, they don't let you download PDFs, and I'd have to scan the whole thing. :/

[Anonymous No.10287420]

Odyssey/Iliad/Divine Comedy
Any of these still worth reading or do they feel somewhat outdated?
t.Greek philosophy lover

[Anonymous No.10287425]

>>10287399

Great ideas! If you can, just try and do a revised version of the chart

[Anonymous No.10287428]

>>10287234
dude learn Latin and Catullus will blow your mind

[Anonymous No.10287430]

>>10287420

Sure. Divine Comedy is medieval literature, though.
I don't know what you mean by "outdated", but being old texts, they'll require a little bit more of concentration and hard work to get through.
They are great reads in my opinion, and can be very fun and rewarding!

[Anonymous No.10287432]

Also OP could you add a link to this chart in the following OP's? It is very good and probably more helpful than those two more popular ones!
Linked from: https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0086/04/1476211635020.jpg

[Anonymous No.10287440]

>>10287432

OP here, it will be there in the next one!

[Anonymous No.10287445]

>>10287440
Fantastic. Hopefully we can compile a better one as well! Some of the translations there aren't the best and there isn't a flowchart.

[Anonymous No.10287458]

>>10287416
I found the Bekker's edition.
Better than nothing

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101074031186;view=1up;seq=10

[Anonymous No.10287467]

I couldn't have hold of Hamilton's mythology, so I've read the Graves one. Did I miss out on anything?

Plato's Phaedo; is there a more perfect book? This man made me have faith.

[Anonymous No.10287488]

>>10287467

Grave is also a good choice, I don't think you are missing on.

And, in my opinion, there is one book more perfect than the Phaedo: the Symposium! Beautiful language, perfect structure, philosophical depth and drunken Alcibiades - what could you ask more?

On all these aspects, the Phaedo is very close to it. I like to think about them as a couple on life and death - though they are much more than just that! From a literary aspect, they are among the most beautiful dialogues to read!

[Anonymous No.10287511]

>>10287149
Reading Euripides' plays currently. Right now I am in the middle of Iphigenia at Aulis. Which of his other plays are must-reads? I assume Bacchae and Medea are the obvious ones and I already read Hecuba.

[Anonymous No.10287526]

>>10287511

I also very much like Helen, it's a different take on the character. There's this whole idea that she was just an eidolon in Troy which is very fascinating.

Also, Alcestis, for similar reason. According to one of my uni professors, there's a weird subtext going on there, when she comes back from afterlife, so that it seems she is either not herself or is some sort of ghost/copy/eidolon again. It was very creepy reading it that way.

[Anonymous No.10287535]

>>10287511
Trojan women is most certainly worth your time.

[Anonymous No.10287711]

>>10287221
It seems like such a weird concept to me to split some of these works up like that. Why would you start reading Aristotle's Ethics in Year 1, continue in Year 2 and then come back to it 5 years later in Year 7? Read the first part of Don Quixote in Year 5 and then 5 years later come back to finish the second part in Year 10? Plenty of examples like that.
Also I am really unsure how much somebody would actually get out of reading old science books from Copernicus, Kepler, etc. Sure many of the things they did were revolutionary but surely they don't posses that much literary value and for actually learning about science you would be much better of to read a more recent book...

[Anonymous No.10287712]

>>10287399
Thanks, any recommendations on alternative translations of particular dialogues?

>>10287409
I think that Republic is better read after the group 5 dialogues as there are parts in it which benefit from understanding some of the discussions in sophist+parmenides and theatetus. I've always seen Republic as a kind of omnibus of Plato's views, almost as his answer to many of the previous dialogues (especially the virtue-ethics dialogues). Placing Timaeus in a particular order with his other works is difficult as it's so different from all other dialogues, and it's importance (as far as i know) is really only related to Platonism and Gnosticism. I've heard the Cambridge companion is pretty bad for Plato, but i haven't read it myself.

[Anonymous No.10287732]

> No mention of my taoist niggah Heracletus
Fix this mistake please.

[Anonymous No.10287882]

>>10287304

[Anonymous No.10287885]

Isn't this /his/?

[Anonymous No.10287908]

>>10287712
Lurking for interest
Please continue your work!

[Anonymous No.10287931]

>>10287882
The Gracchi did nothing wrong.

[Anonymous No.10288077]

>>10287712

The main problem I have with this is that it does not follow the chronology, and that the Republic has likely been written before all of them.

Moreover, what happens shortly after the Republic is that Plato seems to re-think a lot of theories of the dialogues of the maturity, so that the later dialogues are not only formally but also thematically different (and this may explain why Socrates is substituted by other "main characters" there).

The Statesman depicts a "second best" to the philosopher-king ideal - therefore you need to understand what a philosopher king is.
The Sophist is usually read an evolution of the "standard" theory of Forms (assuming that there is something like a "standard" theory of Forms) which is still the one he's likely adopting in the Republic.
The Parmenides has a similar problem: the first part is a critique of previously presented theses on the Forms which still seem to be used in the Republic.
The Theaetetus is really its own thing, it seems to go back to the form of a Socratic dialogue and the political mission of the philosopher seem to be not that relevant ("the philosopher does not know the way to the agorà", says Socrates).

These are all dialogue which, in my opinion, require a reading of the Republic before being properly understood. The risk of reverting the chronological order and of reading, let's say, the Parmenides before the Republic, is that one risks to read Plato's dialogues as a system, and risks losing the differences between different stages of his intellectual developements and the refinement of some ideas (e.g. the One in the Parmenides is, in my opinion, an attempt to make a step beyond what has been said in the Republic about the Form of Good).

So, I'd stick to the chronology as much as possible.

Some changes are ok - e.g. putting the Phaedo among the firsts is good, even if it is likely a mature dialogue, because it serves as a good introduction to the "Platonic" Plato of the middle period as different from the "Socratic" Plato of the first dialogues.

[Anonymous No.10288080]

Have you ever come across a blatantly mistranslated edition of a Greek or Latin classic?

[Anonymous No.10288098]

>>10288080
>a much turned man

[Anonymous No.10288099]

>>10288080

I've had a lot of difficulties with Plotinus' translations. But Parmenides' Publishing now is releasing good ones.

[Anonymous No.10288107]

>>10288098
By the gods, where did you find such abomination?

[Anonymous No.10288115]

>>10288107
The first translation of the Odyssey by a woman. There was a lengthy discussion a couple of weeks back with some faggots trying to argue how it was correct while I took the position of the correct translation being "crafty" while keeping an eye out for the possible usage of a pun by Homer (or whoever).

[Anonymous No.10288403]

>>10288080
Fagles

[Anonymous No.10288408]

>>10288403
Proof that Odysseus was black.

[Anonymous No.10288445]

>>10287149
Why the fuck there's not Lucretius in the Roman charts guys

[Anonymous No.10288449]

>>10287234
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpwH0i0l0po

[Anonymous No.10288452]

>>10288445

OP here, I also think the charts should be improved. I'm working on it, but in the meantime, if some anon produces some good chart, I'll include it in the next /clas/ thread!

[Anonymous No.10288467]

>>10287149
Is this the endgame of greco-roman history?

[Anonymous No.10288473]

>>10288098
how the fuck would you render polutropos? Not like it really works in English, now, does it?

[Anonymous No.10288488]

>>10287221
That list was built by a mental retard who has ass burgers

Anyone of you newfags better not fall for this.

[Anonymous No.10288554]

>>10287467

Otherwise, if you want to study myths starting from a primary source, I really like Ovid's Metamorphoses. This is also an overview of almost all mythology, it is beautifully written (though a bit chaotic) - and possibly my favorite text about mythology by an ancient author.

[Anonymous No.10288563]

>>10287149
These "Resume with the Romans" charts are hot garbage. Here's a real Romans reading list. "Mandatory" authors are starred, but all are worth spending some time with. Vaguely chronological order within genres.

Epic:
Ennius - Annales (fragments)
Lucretius - De Rerum Natura
*Vergil - *Eclogues, *Georgics, **Aeneid
*Ovid - **Metamorphoses
Lucan - Pharsalia
Statius - Thebaid
Silius Italicus - Punica

Drama:
*Plautus - *Pseudolus, Miles Gloriosus, Amphitruo
*Terence - Andria, Hecyra, Phormio, *Adelphoe

Non-epic poetry:
*Catullus
*Horace - Epodes, Odes, *Satires/Sermons, Ars Poetica
Tibullus
Propertius
*Ovid - *Amores, *Heroides, *Ars Amatoria
Juvenal - Satires
Statius - Silvae
Martial - epigrams

Prose fiction ("novels"):
Apocolocyntosis
Petronius - Satyricon
*Apuleius - Metamorphoses/Golden Ass

Rhetoric:
*Cicero - *In Catilinam 1 & 3, **Philippic 2, Pro Milone, Pro Caelio
(if interested in theory as well:
Rhetorica ad Herennium, Seneca the Elder's rhetoric handbook, Quintilian)

Historiography:
*Caesar - Comentarii
*Sallust - **Bellum Catilinae, Bellum Jugurthae
Livy - as much as you want / until you get bored
Res Gestae divi augusti
*Tacitus - Agricola, Historiae, *Germania, **Annales
Suetonius - 12 Caesars
Ammianus Marcellinus - again, just what you want

And I don't care much about philosophy, but if I did, it would go here. If it would really help to make one of those dumb charts, I guess I could.

[Anonymous No.10288576]

>>10288473
>>10288115

[Anonymous No.10288604]

>>10288576
I would understand "clever," but "crafty" is a Greek epithet normally for women. Doesn't really fit in this case. Also, any dictionary in the world is going to point you to the fact that πολυτροπος means both someone turned-about a great deal (by his long journey home) and someone with many turns (i.e. clever or tricky).

"Much-turned" is about as close to the Greek as you can get without injecting bullshit into the translation (like "Crafty" would). You arguing that it's wrong is just politics, and you know it.

t. classics PhD

[Anonymous No.10288609]

>>10288563
Good list tbqh
>These "Resume with the Romans" charts are hot garbage
Agreed

[Anonymous No.10288617]

>>10288604
>You arguing that it's wrong is just politics, and you know it.
Oh no man, no politics, but really translators should put a TN saying it has many different meanings.
It is translated as crafty in a couple of translations in Modern Greek too.
But what did you mean with "politcs"?

[Anonymous No.10288645]

>>10288115
>>10288617
I meant that post where you called people who (rightfully) defended much turned man "faggots" for supporting a woman's translation.

Maybe I'm just on edge because on /pol/'s prevalence here now. I'm just sick of seeing their bullshit

[Anonymous No.10288646]

>>10288563

If someone could make this into an actual chart, it would be great!

[Anonymous No.10288655]

>>10288563
>>10288609
thx mate

On second thought, Lucretius, Lucan, and Juvenal should be starred and Sallust should have 1 star, not 2

[Anonymous No.10288660]

>>10288645
>I meant that post where you called people who (rightfully) defended much turned man "faggots" for supporting a woman's translation.
We are on 4chan after all, how am I supossed to argue otherwise?
I have talked to other Phd holders, the opinion seems to be divided. IMHO it's a pun that was meant to provoke such discussions.

[Anonymous No.10288770]

>>10288660
fair

[Anonymous No.10288783]

>>10288770
Kazantzakis just straight up left it untranslated to give you an example.

[Anonymous No.10288933]

>>10288604

>and someone with many turns (i.e. clever or tricky).

much-turned doesn't get that meaning across tho, at least not as presented here, a single phrase plucked from the passage

a man of many turns would hit both

not a fan of crafty either, but of course it does deal the second meaning

[Anonymous No.10288987]

>>10288604
>>10288645
>modern academia phd
>a flaming PC faggot
like pottery

"a much turned man" is a shit translation that doesn't mean fucking anything in english

all the puns should be covered in notes and the introduction with tricky/crafty/clever/etc(based on how other similar words are translated) used when it comes up

and yes a woman's translation is innately inferior to a man's translation

[Anonymous No.10289043]

>>10287186
>literally begging some guy to include him in his history

[Anonymous No.10289046]

>>10287149
SPQR /thread

[Anonymous No.10289068]

>>10287149
>Start with Homer
>End with some Plato and complete works of Aristotle
This is the dumbest advice tbfqh desu. It completely depends on what people would like to learn. I'm a philosophy major, so it's not important for me to read Homer at all, and I haven't finished Odyssey all the time I've owned it since I was 16. There needs to be more Plato and other philosophers.

[Anonymous No.10289088]

>>10287149
I'm taking advantages of all secret friend parties i have been invited to ask for seneca, the tragedians, plato, aristotle, and ovid, as i plan to start in january the education that i was never given due to my upper middles class upbringing. Wish me luck, bros.

[Anonymous No.10289092]

>>10289068
>Phil major
>Has never read Homer

Is your uni curriculum mediocre, or is it just you?

[Anonymous No.10289101]

>>10289092
Modern philosophy doesn't care about the Greeks, let alone Homer - who has nearly no philosophical importance. Stop putting it out on a pedestal just because it's old. Why do people mix up philosophy with classics majors? They're the only ones who have to be reading Homer.

[Anonymous No.10289108]

>>10289101
If the subject is Plato, a full understanding of Plato is not complete without Homer. And with that said about modern philosophy, why are you making this argument in a classical literature thread?

[Anonymous No.10289124]

>>10289108
>why are you making this argument in a classical literature thread?
I'm telling you my uni curriculum doesn't teach Greeks because they're myopic when it comes to the Greeks. It's just too much to teach people anyway, but I want to do it. I'm going to teach myself Latin then Ancient Greek soon.

I'm saying there needs to be more phil because "Start with the Greeks" is a meme about getting into philosophy, yet the reading list had nearly no philosophy on it.

[Anonymous No.10289146]

Ehi, >>10289068

Anons over here are working on a Plato chart, >>10287409 >>10288077 - do you mind giving us a hand? :D

[Anonymous No.10289156]

currently reading the Cambridge companion to Homer and half of it seems to go over my head, suppose that comes with the territory of being a brainlet
I'm aware of how important reading secondary material is with the greeks but it does feel a little like I'm cheating myself, I don't want to end up just parroting the thoughts of others over such a work
then again I probably wouldn't be able to achieve more than a surface level understanding of Homer just relying on my own mental capabilities

thanks for reading my blog

[Anonymous No.10289188]

>>10289156
>I don't want to end up just parroting the thoughts of others
Do you go to university? The reason why they get you to do research essays is because it teaches you how to present conflicting interpretations and either agree with someone else, or synthesise a new one. It's probably impossible to "interpret" a piece of anything if you don't also find out what the discourse around it is, otherwise you can't contribute anything. I suggest that if you're an autodidact, you try to find stuff online and maybe ask someone with university access to give you the journal articles you want. If you go to uni, use your access. Either way, definitely try to find different interpretations and write an essay yourself. It's holidays now, so you can do it. Doesn't have to be long. Like 2000 words will do, and set yourself a question.

[Anonymous No.10289205]

>>10289124
A philosophy undergrad program at any university is just 4 years of skimming over major philosophers and skimming over the less ones. I agree with you with the misinterpretation of "start with the greeks", those flowchart images in the OP are atrocious. "Start with the greeks" is the way I got into classical studies as a whole rather than only philosophy. I started with philosophy (and Homer), but I realized quickly that the scope of "the greeks" is much wider than philosophers. People should recognize this as well, they are only making themselves pharisees if they purposely strive for a superficial understanding of "the greeks".

For learning Latin/Greek I recommend reading Loeb Classical Library books since the text is printed in the Latin/Greek original and english translation. I learned the Greek alphabet that way pretty quickly.

>>10289156
I've read that piece, some of the essays are incredibly hit and miss (see: Gender and Homeric Epic), most are informational and intended on elaborating on Homer, his themes, his metre, language of the poem, etc etc. Reading Homer and then going into that Cambridge Companion seems jarring for a beginner that hasn't caught onto the nuances of Homer. I would recommend you instead Simone Weil's Poem of Force essay and Seth Benardete's Homeric Heroes essay, these essays will give you a direction when thinking about Homer. Then I highly recommend reading the Iliad and Odyssey again for a second time. Keep reading until you understand.

[Anonymous No.10289366]

>>10287373
>Someone asks about Edith Hamilton
>Doesn't answer about Edith Hamilton and talks about some other book.

[Anonymous No.10289384]

I'm learning Latin right now and "reading" Tacitus and Plinius jr. Really I'm translating, but still.

[Anonymous No.10289487]

Ok faggots It's time to settle it once and for all.
What's better: latin or greek?

[Anonymous No.10289528]

>>10289487
Greek sounds like someone choking on seafood but Latin is too gay. "Maxima cum loud" lolol

[Anonymous No.10289768]

>>10289188
Yeah I'm an autodidact, fair points though thanks. I'll definitely consider the essay idea

>>10289205
I feel like I'm still getting some value from the companion but I suspect you're right that it's a bit advanced for me. I'll check those essays out thanks.
I might read some of the dramatists and historians before I return to Homer just so I don't go crazy

[Anonymous No.10290053]

>>10289487

I like greek better, but it's mostly because of the sound.

[Anonymous No.10290196]

>>10288563
>Plautus
>Terence
>Drama
>Not Comedy

>Livy
>non-asterisked
Other than that. Not bad.

[Anonymous No.10291344]

>>10288488
You just called Mortimer Adler, the man who wrote that book, and helped compile Encyclopedia Britannica's Great Books and that list, a retard with aspergers.

[Anonymous No.10291723]

The Ancient Historians by Michael Grant gives an excellent overview and selection from the classical historians. Highly recommended.

Oh, and read Tacitus, you plebs.

And Celsus too, christcucks.

[Anonymous No.10291729]

>>10291344
Assburgers' is pretty much a requirement for philology and compiling encyclopaedias, anon, or didn't you get the memo?

[Anonymous No.10291847]

>>10289487
I say Greek although I am a bit biased

[Anonymous No.10291936]

>>10291723
Good.

[Anonymous No.10292104]

Hei, can someone tell me what is the best translation of Aristotle's Poetics? Is it the loeb?

[Anonymous No.10292191]

>mfw I thought I did well on my last Latin test
>mfw I conjugated a verb in the present instead of the perfect

[Anonymous No.10292490]

>>10290196
I was originally gonna include some fragmentary Roman tragedies but no one cares about them.

And I've never met anyone who enjoyed reading Livy in translation, so I don't star him.

[Anonymous No.10292511]

Hello /clas/,

Assuming one wishes to learn both languages, what do you think is an easier direction:

Ancient Greek -> Modern Greek
Modern Greek -> Ancient Greek

[Anonymous No.10292544]

>>10292490
Livy gets bogged down by the repetition of books 1-10, primarily 1-6, with passages detailing the great men of Rome, such as Camillus, Corvus, Torquatus. Books 21-30 are the best of Livy as it describes the Hannibalic War. I enjoyed that work above all others. I read Oxford's translation, and read through that. If anything of Livy's history should be starred it is that and maybe to book 45, although I think his complete history is great (but books 1-10 could be supplemented with Plutarch's Lives).

[Anonymous No.10292602]

>>10292511

Maybe modern to ancient... I've heard it is easier for Greeks to learn Ancient Greek than it is for others.
But still, there is always the risk that it becomes confusing, and that you end up exchanging the grammar of one for the other.
If you want to read ancient texts in the original Greek, I'd just go with Ancient Greek first, and then learn modern for fun (it is also supposedly easier, since you can talk to modern Greek spearkers)

[Anonymous No.10292705]

>>10292602
>it is also supposedly easier
It is. Has less grammar than ancient

[Anonymous No.10292741]

I have the Butler translations of the Homeric poems, are they fine or should I try to find a different translation?
I mostly got it because it was both poems and a nice looking hardcover for my bookshelf

[Anonymous No.10292757]

>>10287149
flowchart 1
>knwoing

flowchart 3
>senetor

[Anonymous No.10292769]

>>10288563
What about my boy Persius? Also I think Lucretius should definitely be starred
>Aenadum genetrix...

[Anonymous No.10292845]

"much-turned man" is terrible but how about "man of tortuous way/path"?

[Anonymous No.10292882]

I'm getting mixed messages here; just tell me where to start with Plato

[Anonymous No.10292908]

>>10292882
Euthyphro

[Anonymous No.10292916]

>>10288473
I would render it into familiar English terms the daily vernacular of the Greeks implied.

much tossed or harried
OR
misfortune-spun

[Anonymous No.10292936]

>>10292908
thanks, going with that

[Anonymous No.10292940]

>>10287370
>>10287409

Despite current academic statements that Alcibiades is not written by Plato, the neoPlatonists recommended that it should be the first work read. Their reading list went as follows:

First Alcibiades (Introduction)
Gorgias (Ethics)
Phaedo (Ethics)
Cratylus (Logic)
Theaetetus (Logic)
Sophist (Physics)
Statesman (Physics)
Phaerdrus (Theology)
Symposium (Theology)
Philebus (Conclusion)
Timaeus (Physics Perfected)
Parmenides (Theology Perfected)

They didn't read the Republic or The Laws due to length.

[Anonymous No.10292954]

>>10292602
>>10292511
Okay, so for clarification, you actually have four choices:
Homeric, Attic, Koine, and Modern.
It is best to learn Attic, as it has enough of the old stuff that you can get most of Homeric, and fill in the rest with dictionaries and footnotes about grammatical changes. Attic simplifies into Koine, making reading Koine a freakin' breeze. Modern Greek, which I do not know much about, is probably still a simplification (via Demotic. Also see Wikipedia's 'Greek Language Question').

[Anonymous No.10292963]

>>10292954
If he learns Attic, the rest should seem pretty easy really.

[Anonymous No.10292969]

>>10292882

It doesn't really matter

[Anonymous No.10292983]

I left SWTG incomplete at the start of this year, reading the Illiad. I can't wait till I finish this semester so I can take up Homer again and start afresh.

[Anonymous No.10292984]

I'm reading Appian - The Civil Wars right now. It's a fun read, but it is taking me forever because I end up looking up things, and falling down sidetracks for hours.

[Anonymous No.10293002]

>>10288098
>>10288115
She actually translated it as 'complicated'

[Anonymous No.10293007]

>>10293002
It isn't wrong, but really?

[Anonymous No.10293053]

Are there any good podcasts about Greek or Roman history/literature/philosophy? Preferably not too lowbrow

[Anonymous No.10293100]

>>10292845
There is nothing "torturous" implied in the word or the line, and then you completely lose the pun of tricky/forced to wander. Awful

[Anonymous No.10293112]

>Podcast recommendations

I'm working my way through the Greeks and wanted to know if anyone recommended some Podcasts on Ancient Greece to supplement.

I've got long periods of time at work where i'm sat in front of a laptop creating diagrams with headphones in, so if anyone has any recommendations by people that don't sound like they're about to chortle "Smell ya later!" i'd love to know.

t. britbong

[Anonymous No.10293116]

>>10292916
>daily vernacular
Homeric Greek was never spoken. It was a stylized composition of languages, not daily vernacular. Look up "kuntsprache" it you want to learn more.

For an easy example, tell me, why would you want to render something like Joyce in "daily vernacular?" You kill its power.

I know you all think you're smart because you read fiction, but this is literally the most studied book of all time (barring maybe parts of the Bible) and you're throwing out ideas like cocky undergrads. Just read some secondary scholarship and criticism and be a bit more humble so you quit sounding so dense

[Anonymous No.10293136]

>>10292769
I've only ever seen Persius as kinda a footnote to Juvenal, but you're probably right. And Lucretius should be starred, yeah

[Anonymous No.10293140]

>>10293116
>t. classics PhD

[Anonymous No.10293152]

Has anyone here read the Anthony Verity translation of the Iliad? If so, how is it?

[Anonymous No.10293275]

>>10291680
Help me learn Attic Grik, /clas/.

[Anonymous No.10293339]

>>10292940

This could be its own chart for someone who's really into LARPing as a Neoplatonist.
I still think it would somehow be effective... But it is thematic rather than chronological - and it assumes Platonic dialogues add up to a system, which is very debatable.

[Anonymous No.10293369]

>>10293053
You can find some recordings of In Our Time in youtube. I've listened to the ones about Euclid, Thucydides, Xenophon, and Heraclitus. They're pretty good, albeit a little bit too general because of time restrictions.

[Anonymous No.10293779]

>>10292511
Probably ancient to modern, but they are basically as different as Italian and Latin, so it may confuse you as well as help. Ancient languages are just mindbogglingly harder (Homeric and attic, in this case) as we've totally changed our grammar--case to word order, conjugation to helping verbs, death of moods, etc. Whatever you do, don't start with Koine, unless the Bible is your endgame

>>10292544
Fair. Sounds like you like it more than me, and Livy probably deserves a star regardless; I just get bored.

>>10292882
Don't worry about progressions. The Republic, The Apology, and The Symposium are the most fun. Start there and enjoy!

>>10292916
That's ridiculous. See above: Homeric Greek was never any spoken vernacular. It was as old to ancient Athenians as Shakespeare to us. It was as old to the Hellenistics as Chaucer. (dates are off, just comparing for linguistic convenience). By koine's takeover, it was like Beowolf. Don't tell others to get better; get better yourself.

>>10292940
Why would you want to be a Neo Platonist

>>10293275
You don't need help; you just need to commit. Get flashcards and intro readers and just read all the time.

[Anonymous No.10293788]

Epictetus' Discourses and Enchiridion are basically ancient self-help.

[Anonymous No.10293924]

>>10293779

>tfw no mystical union with the One.

[Anonymous No.10293929]

>>10293779
>By koine's takeover, it was like Beowolf.

I was under the impression that the Hellenistics already spoke Koiné. Perhaps I do need to read a history of the Ancient Greek language.

[Anonymous No.10293960]

>>10293929
No no, you got it--they spoke Koine but still wrote often in Attic and even Homeric. By "takeover," I meant when attic and Homeric basically fell out even of formal writing and sometimes even in poetry

[Anonymous No.10294223]

>>10287149
I'm reading the Eurythpro right now. I have nothing to say about it.

[Anonymous No.10294228]

>>10293960
Oh, ok, thanks for clarifying that.

[Anonymous No.10294234]

>>10287428
Odi et amo

[Anonymous No.10294237]

>>10287234
Guy lee translation was recommended by my uni

[Anonymous No.10294255]

>>10292104
Loebs are rarely the "best" translation in my experiences, often too archaic and leave things out
>source: currently studying latin lit

[Anonymous No.10294262]

>>10292191
O i
S isti
T it
Mus imus
Tis itis
Nt erunt

Learn your tables pleb

[Anonymous No.10294450]

>>10294255
The ones from the 20s are like that, but the more recent ones (1980 and onwards) are less prudish, if at all.

[Anonymous No.10294498]

>>10294450
Agreed, loebs sre not totally invaluable and are very beneficial with the latin alongside, but rarely are they the best translation

[Anonymous No.10294826]

>>10292544
>>10293779
>Livy gets bogged down by the repetition of books 1-10, primarily 1-6, with passages detailing the great men of Rome, such as Camillus, Corvus, Torquatus.
My apologies, my mind got ahead of me; what I meant to say is that books 3-6 (on reflection) are repetitive because of the pattern of plebeian-patrician conflict interrupted bu war to distract from that domestic problem, with the highlights being the great men of Rome.

[Anonymous No.10294893]

>>10294450
From what I know Loeb has been retranslating a lot of stilted older editions recently.

>>10294498
>loebs sre not totally invaluable

lol. The translations might not be what you're looking for, but loebs are absolutely indispensable even if you're only going to read the English half. There is a huge amount of ancient lit that is only in modern publication by loeb. You literally can't find a lot of it anywhere else. Sure you can find Plutarch's lives from oxford, penguin, modern library; good luck finding his Moralia from anyone but Loeb (or a similar publisher in another language, like the french Bude collection I think it's called).

Get deep enough into antiquity and you have no choice but to start buying loebs.

[Anonymous No.10294915]

>>10294893
>From what I know Loeb has been retranslating a lot of stilted older editions recently.

That's correct. The problem is the pace. They release 2 or 3 new translations every year. At this rate, by the time they finish the retranslations we would be already in need of new ones.

[Anonymous No.10294922]

>>10294893
>Get deep enough into antiquity and you have no choice but to start buying loebs.

I still find it terribly strange that they have not released Loeb editions for the Orphic Hymns or Aesop's Fables.

[Anonymous No.10294943]

>>10294915
So learn Latin/Greek if you care so much. I don't know of any currently in print Loebs that are heinously bad; at worst they're a bit dated and frankly will probably never be updated because nobody fucking reads most of them.

>>10294922
No idea about the hymns (never heard anything about them besides half-mentions in myth or whatever), but I think the problem with Aesop is a problem of not knowing how many to include, which variants, repeats, etc. Oxford has a tidy collection of I think 600 fables in their Aesop, and IIRC made no pretenses about having collected all of them.

I think it's sort of a Greek "1001 nights" situation where so many are mixed with general folklore that it's hard to pin down authorship/a definite body of work.

[Anonymous No.10294952]

>>10294943
>So learn Latin/Greek if you care so much.
That's what I'm doing. You don't have to be so confrontational, it's not like I care that much either. But their publishing pace is an actual problem, especially considering some of the old translations can't be acquired that easily anymore.

[Anonymous No.10294956]

>>10294952
Never had a problem finding a new loeb and I have like 80

[Anonymous No.10294961]

>>10294943
The problem with the Orphic Hymns is that the only other bilingual edition in English is basically impossible to find, and if you do find it, it's going to be obscenely expensive. And for a publisher who prides itself in its unique catalogue, the absence of the Orphic Hymns is very strange.

[Anonymous No.10294968]

>>10294956
Maybe if you are in the US or the UK. In other countries it's not as readily availabe, even on the internet.

[Anonymous No.10294984]

Amazing, an actual quality thread on /lit/. Pic related (Homer: A collection of critical essays) is what I'm reading at the moment. I'm probably going to have to spend more time on Homer than I first imagined, he is way deeper than I expected. In fact, at this rate I'll probably have read upwards of 10-15 books and collections of essays on him before I move on to other Greek work.

There is a slight problem in the absolute wealth of material out there. There's a large variation in quality, and thought of Homer has varied quite a lot, even in as little as the last 50 years. You could spend a lifetime studying Homer, and as a layman it's a bit difficult to know when it's "enough".

Anyhow, another book that I just finished reading was "The Mortal Hero: An Introduction to the Iliad". Not much of an introduction, but a brilliant, comprehensive, and convincing set of interpretations of the Iliad. Highly recommended.

[Anonymous No.10295005]

>>10294961
Feels good to be in a country full of classicsfags (for once)

[Anonymous No.10295367]

>>10294984
Yeah mate, this is why Classics exists. Stop when it stops being fun and rewarding. If that doesn't happen, well, you've got a great life

[Anonymous No.10295842]

>>10294968
If you ever need a loeb ebook just start a thread on lit, I have like 450 of them as PDFs and will gladly share any that I have if they're requested

[Anonymous No.10295851]

>>10294984
pls post table of contents of that book

>as a layman it's a bit difficult to know when it's "enough".

I agree with >>10295367 that you just tap out at some point. Once you start thinking "wow why am I even reading this" you're done. Knowing when to stop is a skill.

[Anonymous No.10295883]

>>10295851

[Anonymous No.10295915]

>>10295883
Looks good, I'll probably pick it up, myself.

As for the 10-15 books on Homer you plan to read, I recommend not reading them all at once. By all means get a big chunk under your belt (maybe 5 books), but take care of the others one at a time over a series of months. It'll help your retention, you'll be coming to the table with a clear and excited mind, and you'll have had time to digest and independently mull over what you've already read.

Reading everything about a given author/work in a single clump makes it too easy to forget what you've read. Also you should consider jotting down some notes/basic reflections at least on the essays you particularly enjoy.

[Anonymous No.10295930]

>>10295915
The essays are a bit hit and miss imho. Some of them are really good, e.g. Odysseus' scar, although it deals mostly with a comparison of language in Homer and the Bible, but also with the concept of "directness" or "lack of background" in Homeric text.

The very first essay by Tolstoy is just him saying how Shakespeare is shit and Homer is good.

> Also you should consider jotting down some notes/basic reflections at least on the essays you particularly enjoy.
I'm considering doing this, it's probably a great idea. However, with the amount of insight I've gained I'd pretty much have to write an entire essay on Homer to contain all my reflections on him, and even then I'm bound to miss stuff.

[Anonymous No.10295939]

>>10295930
>The essays are a bit hit and miss imho
Yeah that's always gonna happen even with big name essay collections like cambridge companions.

>I'd pretty much have to write an entire essay on Homer to contain all my reflections on him

[Anonymous No.10295940]

>>10295939
fuck didn't finish my comment

Was going to say there's nothing wrong with writing an essay of your own, or at least casually noting different insights you hadn't considered/particularly enjoyed discovering.

[Anonymous No.10295951]

Just finished Odyssey (Fagles translation). I read it and the Iliad while traveling - on a cruise ship and around Asia. Not a bad way to do it. I also read Edith Hamilton first. While the Odyssey was enjoyable I think the Iliad left more of an impression on me. It drilled into my mind so many badass images of men arrayed for battle, standing in valor against hordes of enemies, striking enemies suddenly like a mountain lion pounces upon its prey - there were a fuck load of mountain lion analogies. The onslaught of Agamemnon, also of Diomedes, was a high point. And of course Achilles' exploits in battle once he joined the fight. Spearing men left and right at that river, skewering them one after another like strips of meat.
Best part of the Odyssey was just seeing those fucking suitors get destroyed. Also seeing how Odysseus would craft deceits to suit every occasion.

[Anonymous No.10295957]

>>10292104
Joe Sachs is a great Aristotle translator imo

[Anonymous No.10296097]

>>10295005

Italy is the best country to buy classics, hands down. You can have fairly updated translations with the original text for 10 euros.
A poor country with a rich soul. :D

[Anonymous No.10296287]

>>10289068
You can't fully understand Plato without reading Homer. Even if your curriculum doesn't require you to read Homer, you should do it anyways. Don't be a speedreading brainlet.

[Anonymous No.10296291]

>>10287420
Books are only added to the Western canon if they have timeless relevance. They are not outdated.

[Anonymous No.10296531]

/clas/, is there a tragedy or something written about Lucretia? Seems like the perfect subject for one. Any other literature on her is welcomed too, I just love the story.

[Anonymous No.10296590]

>>10296531

You probably already saw this, but in case you didn't check the "In literature and music" section of this wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretia

>tfw brainlet using wikipedia

[Anonymous No.10296632]

[Anonymous No.10296635]

>>10296531
Are you a dog?

[Anonymous No.10296731]

>>10296635
What a fucking bitch

[Anonymous No.10296790]

>>10293112
Bang: http://www.thehistoryofancientgreece.com/

[Anonymous No.10296843]

>>10296632

Loebs are great, but how about buying the whole moralia with the original text at 60 euros? ;D

[Anonymous No.10296875]

What execution method was the writer purposing to describe in Pope's Odyssey, the one with the plank and rope? It was severely ambiguous.

Did they bind the limbs of the victim to the beam then dropped him with the other end of the rope held, to fracture and let him die by exposure?

[Anonymous No.10297086]

>>10296635
what's her name I want to Avenge

[Anonymous No.10298540]

>>10287372
I heard good things about Athenaze.

[Anonymous No.10298922]

>>10288646
just read please

>>10288563
* martial please :(

[Anonymous No.10300158]

>>10288563
>Petronius - Satyricon

Just finished this. I know it's suppose to be a comedy but damn some of the views people had were bananas compared to today.
>Two stories about an old tutor who was paid to live with a rich family and teach the young ones. He decides to molest them in various ways and it's written in a playful manner like it wasn't a serious crime? ahhh.
>Female Hostel/Bar owner insists their new friend deflower a child and they all watch from a peephole drooling.
>Main story about two guys in their 30's in a love triangle with a 15 year old boy.
>One of the very first mentions of werewolfs in history( I think only one other work mentions it? Herodotus? but this was clearly a werewolf O_O ).
>Mgtow story about how women are always traitors, I guess nothing changed.( Including pic of it, really interesting.)

Anyone know other ancient books like this? not the pedo stuff, just the weird stories stuff.

[Anonymous No.10300170]

Has anyone here read this? Is it worth getting?

[Anonymous No.10300174]

>>10300170
There's a PDF in libgen. Check it out and see if you want to get it physically.

[Anonymous No.10300731]

Just checking in to recommend Pierre Hadot's works on the Greeks. Especially the Inner Citadel on Marcus Aurelius.

[Anonymous No.10300873]

The book is all about self control, which reminds me of my devouted Muslim grand mother, which is why I love it. 8/10 comfy and good read

[Anonymous No.10300905]

>>10300158

Go with the Golden Ass from Apuleius, if you have not checked it out already. It is weird, genuinely funny, and it plays funny games with structure.
It is a slightly different kind of weirdness, though, more picaresque and less chaotic. I guess part of the pleasure of the Satyricon is the fact that you try to put the fragments together - you don't have that with the Golden Ass. It's still a very good read, though, I loved it!

[Anonymous No.10300913]

>>10300170
I've read it. Some of it is interesting, some very boring. If you have a good understanding of the poems and the context in which they were composed I don't think you'll get much value out of it. If you know nothing about them aside from them being composed by Homer, and maybe you've only read them once or twice, it's worth it, IMO.

[Anonymous No.10301246]

[Anonymous No.10301397]

>>10300170

The Cambridge Companions tend to be kind of bad in my estimation. You can sometimes find them used for very low prices though. Worth getting in those cases. Useful for getting a sense of the interpretive frameworks that dominated a generation ago. These are not cutting edge books. They also fall awkwardly between too scholarly and not scholarly enough at times.

[Anonymous No.10301679]

>>10301397

Agreed. Best thing to start with is an edition with good introduction and good notes.

[Anonymous No.10301832]

>>10296635
nigger