/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.10091309]

>feel depressed
>do productive manual labour
>it disappears

Really makes you think...

[Anonymous No.10091314]

>>10091309
Manual labor makes me want to kill myself

[Anonymous No.10091351]

>>10091314
You're doing unproductive manual labour.

Ever built a house of logs?

[Anonymous No.10091384]

>>10091351
no but I've worked in a cake factory full of romanians for minimum wage

[Anonymous No.10091406]

>>10091309
This is why practice is always better than theory for self-fulfillment

[Anonymous No.10091427]

>>10091384
this
>tfw worked in a citrus warehouse with a bunch of punjabi dudes
they were bros, but they were all really old and didnt speak a lick of english

[Anonymous No.10091499]

>>10091309
Most manual labor in a post-industrial society is degrading and inhumane. Everything you do is totally ephemeral and utilitarian, basically just a rote task wiped of all identity waiting to be automated. There is no sense of history or future, there is no sense of community and of value in the act itself, you are just assisting the immediate gratification of the immediate desires of a shifting, faceless, ever growing mob. Compare building a school for your town or picking crops for your village to sorting packages at the UPS plant or stocking shelves at Walgreens. What a disgusting world

[Anonymous No.10091506]

>>10091384
this is alienation, i claim

[Anonymous No.10091518]

>>10091499
Totally this. Also, you are lost in doing. What's impressive about that? When you can labor and be conscious, then you are being. Try reading Eckhart Tolle.

[Anonymous No.10091521]

>>10091499
Brilliant description. We're not all fucking Russian aristocrats who can build a log cabin when we like

[Anonymous No.10091523]

>>10091309
Aka a little exercise once, twice or trice a day keeps the xanax away.
Labour makes it sound like work but that's a whole definition spectrum to discus.

[Anonymous No.10091525]

>>10091309
That's just the release of dopamine in your brain. There's a strong association with seeing 'productivity' regardless of how useful it is and feeling better, the same with exercise, they all release serotonin and yield positive mental conditioning for repetition of such.

[Anonymous No.10091535]

>>10091499
>>10091518
>>10091521

try young Marx

[Anonymous No.10091537]

>>10091525
>dude it's just chemicals
Right but what never gets answered is the question that always comes next: what causes the chemicals?

inb4 "more chemicals"

[Anonymous No.10091540]

>>10091525
kill yourself positivist swine

[Anonymous No.10091548]

>>10091537
more chemicals

[Anonymous No.10091552]

>>10091499
this is why i am NEET, desu

[Anonymous No.10091574]

>>10091525
t. no tertiary medical education

[Anonymous No.10091597]

>>10091535
>young Marx

Overrated garbage, even Zizek calls it shit

[Anonymous No.10091606]

>>10091309
Nazis already figured it decades ago

[Anonymous No.10091623]

>>10091525
Something about this makes me think of people who see no value in experiencing the written word because it's just made up of letters. Or music because it's just frequencies in time. I don't see how understanding the mechanisms of things diminishes their value.

Not saying you're espousing that sort of thing, but that's just what came to mind.

[Anonymous No.10091627]

>>10091309
doing manual labour throughout uni and my teenage years was so depressing, and taught me nothing about myself or the world. it would have been much better to be born rich, intelligence gives you introspective ability and appreciation not slaving away with a bunch of foreigners every night while your rich friends are out partying. people who moan about muh office job don't know the half of it.

[Anonymous No.10091659]

Imagine that, it's almost as if the human body was meant to be physically active and not loaf in front of a computer screen for 12 hours out of the day.

[Anonymous No.10091664]

>>10091309
in many philosophies the goal is to be free from the burden of thought. What do you find compelling about labor? Besides, muh exercise.

[Anonymous No.10091674]

>feel bored
>read book
>boredom disappears

it's magic

[Anonymous No.10091676]

>>10091499
Wouldn't really call that manual labor. Working as a construction worker or tradesman actually does instill a feeling of purpose. For example, repairing someone's air conditioner, installing a central AC system for a neighbor (not fore free obviously), etc.

[Anonymous No.10091728]

>>10091676
>manual labor isn't manual labor

[Anonymous No.10091763]

>>10091499
This is all true but getting all tangled up with the reality of this situation is probably what shifts most people on this board to being NEETs and communist sympathizers, you have to have the ability to create your own meaning and definition in today's world, not dwell on how disgusting it is

[Anonymous No.10091781]

>>10091763
>you have to have the ability to create your own meaning and definition in today's world

Oh shut the fuck up, this means utterly nothing

[Anonymous No.10091792]

I switched out of engineering just because of how depressing the jobs seemed. I'm really hoping teaching provides a more fulfilling feeling.

[Anonymous No.10091797]

>>10091792
Lmao bad move

[Anonymous No.10091800]

>>10091781
It means nothing if you're a hedonistic faggot.

[Anonymous No.10091810]

>>10091797
It's math education, if that makes any difference? Are today's teenagers as bad as they seem?

[Anonymous No.10091813]

>>10091810
They're great, its modern teaching that's the problem. Hope you get a good school

[Anonymous No.10091821]

>>10091728
You must be an effeminate pussy to consider stocking shelves manual labor.

[Anonymous No.10091833]

>>10091537
>Must we then postulate Divine intervention? Are we to bring in God to create the first current of Laplace's nebula or to let off the cosmic firework of Lemaître's imagination? I confess an unwillingness to bring God in this way upon the scene. The circumstances with thus seem to demand his presence are too remote and too obscure to afford me any true satisfaction. Men have thought to find God at the special creation of their own species, or active when mind or life first appeared on earth. They have made him God of the gaps in human knowledge. To me the God of the trigger is as little satisfying as the God of the gaps. It is because throughout the physical Universe I find thought and plan and power that behind it I see God as the creator.

[Anonymous No.10091840]

>>10091821
You must be half-retarded to not know what manual labor means

[Anonymous No.10091841]

I am in the process of getting a job cleaning a large mall on third shift. Apparently whilst doing the work I can listen to audiobooks or music and the work is extremely relaxed and mostly easy (save for the cleaning of the food court floor which is done once a week in its entirely and general cleaning maintenance is done every day). Holidays are also kind of big, as expected.

I'm kind of excited since I'll finally have a paycheck again, honestly. I enjoy monotonous tasks too thanks to actual aspergers, so I guess that helps. Third shift is also more lenient on the rules since no one will be at the mall so I won't even have to follow the dress code fully (which I will anyway because rules are important). I will not be tucking my shirt in, though.

[Anonymous No.10091846]

>>10091841
How'd you get that comfy job?

[Anonymous No.10091879]

>>10091846

Nepotism, much to my chagrin. A few months ago I was asked by my neighbour if I knew anyone who needed a job, but I turned it down as I was attempting to start my own business at the time so was focusing on that. Her dog came to see my dogs and we spoke the other day and I asked her if she was still looking for someone to fill the position and she said yes.

It was much better than the multiple applications I've sent out and received nothing back for my trouble. I can save for college and get my meme degree so I can feel superior to others despite having no career prospects, and I will have a mostly easy job where I don't have to interact with anyone but a few colleagues.

[Anonymous No.10091896]

>>10091879
Is nepotism how you get jobs? Because of all the applications I filled out, the only callback I got was a restaurant where friends of mine worked.

[Anonymous No.10091901]

>>10091896

Anecdotally, yes.

[Anonymous No.10091915]

>>10091309
On my islands of work amidst seas of NEEThood doing manual labour and monotonous factory shit I was given a lot of time for self reflection and thinking, ironically the opposite of my current NEET state where my mind is always shifting through the mire on this shitty website and what not
Grass is greener though, it was a pain in the arse a lot of the time and all I ever thought about was what I'd do when I got home or when I was NEET again, it's like flipping a burger that never cooks on either side with life

[Anonymous No.10091921]

>>10091896
You could also be cool and attractive, that works well

[Anonymous No.10091930]

>>10091309
>feel depressed
>exercise
>exercise
>exercise
>feel depressed even more while exercising

[Anonymous No.10091972]

>>10091499
Picking crops is utilitarian and one of the shittiest jobs you can have. Increased automation should of freed up labor to enjoy life but wealth will never fucking trickle down and capital will always accumulate in hands of the few.

[Anonymous No.10091987]

>>10091972
basically this. why do we need all of these worthless service industry jobs?

[Anonymous No.10092009]

>>10091930
Story of my life

[Anonymous No.10092027]

>>10092009
But to be fair OP did say *productive* manual labour.
Exercise is just a sign that your life is so empty of any meaningful labour that you have to do some just for the sake of it. Which is why it makes you even more depressed eventually, I guess.

[Anonymous No.10093004]

Manual labor is fine as long as you are your own boss

It's way less fun when you're busting your ass to make money for someone else

[Anonymous No.10093006]

>>10091506
but he likes alienation

[Anonymous No.10093035]

>>10093004
Tbh this is why I became a tradesman. I feel like it's the forgotten alternative to university to have a well paying job. If you contract you are in control of your hours, in control of the jobs you accept and decline, free to accept work from multiple sources, and you can take holidays whenever you want for how long you want. Plus if you are tidy in your work you pretty much have no one to answer to all the while making better money than most people. It's also feels nice to do a skilled job with your hands.

[Anonymous No.10093061]

>>10091309
Manual labor makes you happy, eh?

[Anonymous No.10093062]

>>10093035
As an outsider, tradesman contract work seems like a pretty top tier path

[Anonymous No.10093067]

>>10093061
suprised nobody has posted the Arbeit macht frei meme

[Anonymous No.10093083]

>>10093062
It is if you have the right temperament. You have a lot more responsibility as a contractor than most people have in their jobs. You need to be a relaxed person who is good at what they do, otherwise the job destroys you mentally. That being said I highly recommend it. You can spend six years at medical school to go into a job that actually won't pay that well for a few years plus having the truly massive student debt to pay off, or you can get your trade papers in three year much easier years while earning money and go straight into something with your papers and make great money of the bat.

[Anonymous No.10093126]

>>10091915
not bad, would read again

[Anonymous No.10093132]

>>10091309
>just do manual labor haha
>just go outside dude, go chop some wood for your fireplace in the garden you have tee hee

thanks

[Anonymous No.10093180]

>>10091896
I will say in my recent experience it's a resounding yes. I was on the verge of being homeless and sent out ~15 applications to various places and for pretty much all of them it was a huge waiting game and a series of interviews which would either result in nothing at all or a position with shit hours and shit pay. I finally got a job at a law firm because a position opened up and I happened to know the lady from when I previously was doing courier work.

[Anonymous No.10093221]

>>10091499
>manual labour and what you do for an income is the same thing

I agree with what you said. Certainly most of our work is soulless. But you can do manual labour in your own time too. I'm in the process of making myself a guitar right now, for example.

[Anonymous No.10093223]

>>10091499
>he doesn't elevate menial labour to the level of advanced mysticism by means of constant inner prayer

Legit pleb

[Anonymous No.10093371]

Being a roofer is the most satisfying job I've ever had. I feel like a very useful man, strong willed and physically able man. It also teaches one to be grateful for every moment that you draw breath because you can die any day that you get up and go to work. There's so much to learn to be a good roofer. We have an unspoken sense of fraternity as well because of these things. Construction workers and roofers in particular are a lot more valuable than is commonly imagined. The job is one of the highest physical art forms. Quite literally as well lol

[Anonymous No.10093380]

>>10093371
I'd also like to say that truck drivers are the unsung heroes of the world. None of this shit would work without them. Their intentions may solely be to make money, but they are sacrificing so much by doing their job. Respect them.

[Anonymous No.10093391]

>>10093132
Do it pussy, tap into your primal nature. You aren't just an intellect, you're also a testosterone filled beast.

[Anonymous No.10093403]

>>10093083
I'm interested. Could you recommend me some trades that are low-stress/time? High pay doesn't matter as long as the wages are livable.

[Anonymous No.10093404]

>>10093391
yeah let me just go in the forest i have on my estate and chop down some trees haha :)

what a grand time!

[Anonymous No.10093410]

>>10093404
Condescension is really effeminate. Go physically exert yourself to the point of exhaustion, you'll feel better.

[Anonymous No.10093413]

>>10091309
in the past eight years the only time i have actually felt good about myself and life and felt like i had actually accomplished something was when i helped my father repair the fence.

[Anonymous No.10093416]

>>10093410
yep let me just get my cane i will walk around my vast grounds

i sure hope groundskeeper willis has cleared the paths of brushwood!

[Anonymous No.10093418]

>>10093413
So why haven't you become a fence maker yet?

[Anonymous No.10093427]

>>10093221
>work 200 hours a week of mindless unproductive manual labor waiting for automation (baggage handler)
>so exhausted that spend days off in bed
>Oi me lad, you should also do manual labor on your time off too!
Fuck YOU!

[Anonymous No.10093431]

>>10091351
>this is how romantacucks argue

[Anonymous No.10093433]

>>10091800
You are a hedonistic faggot.

[Anonymous No.10093435]

>>10093416
He has not sir. Last I saw of him he was running off to his quarters with a giddy expression upon his weary yet strong face with that Jessica girl you fancy, she looked quite pleased with herself as well. I'm sorry sir it truly is a dreadful shame that you can't find good help anymore.

[Anonymous No.10093440]

>>10093435
Why did this make me laugh
is not even funneh

[Anonymous No.10093490]

>>10093413
>tfw your MA makes you want to die
>tfw the only time you're happy is when you get asked to do chores around the house

[Anonymous No.10093497]

>>10091972
you do know that people can breed above the replacement rate, right?

nuclear weapons and modern medecine are what ruined us. bring back hoplites, slaves, and infant mortality

[Anonymous No.10093500]

>>10091972
>implying free time and enjoying life are not mutually exclusive

[Anonymous No.10093501]

>>10093371
My nigger. What kind of materials do you roof with? Do you mostly do residential or commercial. When I used to roof I worked under one contractor who was pretty much a bogan. It's amazing how close we became over the years. Also when the big brick/roof tile company in my country would give us a team to help out was always a lot of fun. Being a part of a team like that made the days fly by like they are nothing.

>>10093403
I'm assuming you mean for contracting, if you are on wages you are not in control of your hours. In that regards it doesn't matter too much what trade you do since by its very nature contracting gives you freedom.

So just to make sure we are on the same page when you contract you either get jobs directly from clients or you can subcontract for someone. When you subcontract they provide you with jobs that you can do though you are in full control of how many hours and what days to do the job unless there are strict deadlines on it. Finding your own work can be very patchy if you don't have a good network and often involves a lot of effort (you have to go to every job and price if when there is no certainty you will even get it). Subcontracting is sort of like being on wages except you have the ability to refuse work they give you which also means you can control how much work you want to do, can subcontract for multiple people, and can take holidays and breaks as long as you want.

However some trades aren't practical to do on your own. If you have your own employees it seriously diminishes your freedom and makes your job more stressful (though providing more money). So doing new concrete or clay roofs is pretty much impossible on your own. Also in my experience there seems to be a negative correlation between stress and time in trades. The more stressful the job the less you have to work with the inverse being true. Being a painter or plasterer is one of the easier trades but you usually have to do long days multiple days in a row. I'm a vinyl layer for floors. It's technical work where it's easy to wastes thousands of dollars of vinyl from simple easy to make mistakes. As such I earn really good money per meter and the days usually aren't that long but it requires a bit of stress here and there.
I'm not bashing painters or plasters by the way. It's a different sort of lifestyle that suites different people. I know a painter who contracts. As I said he works a lot but it's never very hard work, he earns good money and he spends the whole day listening to music, audiobooks etc. So what trade you want to go into should be heavily informed by what kind of person you are.

>>10093427
>work 200 hours a week of mindless unproductive manual labor waiting for automation (baggage handler)
>work 200 hours a week

[Anonymous No.10093962]

>>10091499
marry me
i'm mira whatever btw

[Anonymous No.10093964]

>>10091521
what if i can build a log cabin when i like?
enlighten me about your ways

[Anonymous No.10093967]

>>10091537
heisenberg

[Anonymous No.10093973]

>>10091623
you're just an anon in a sea of other anons, you know

[Anonymous No.10093975]

>>10091659
underrated
>>10091674
no

[Anonymous No.10093991]

>>10091499
Fucking A star post.

[Anonymous No.10093994]

>>10091309
>Feel depressed
>Think of Stalingrad
>Literally nothing I ever face in life will compare to the horrors of the second world war
>Not depressed anymore, filled with hope

People that feel like they are facing adversity today need some historical perspective.

[Anonymous No.10093999]

>>10091499
You could do a skilled manual labor job like being a gardener, a contractor, a plumber etc. There's plenty of manual labor that isn't "inhumane". Being a butcher is actually a skilled profession that most people don't think of too.

[Anonymous No.10094021]

>>10091841
That job sounds fucking fantastic. I work in a storeroom as a stocker and it feels similar but the work is generally hard/fast paced most days. Working for a couple years now has made me realize that the one thing I absolutely don't want in life is a job that is important and requires solving problems. I want a job that is easy and relaxed and basically doesn't matter, not because I'm lazy, just because I don't want people expecting things from me during the work day. I want to reserve all of my free time and passion for my not work, because if I had a job "where you don't have to work", like a professional passion I'd be so crushed by expectation that I wouldn't want to go to work at all. I'd rather be a hobbyist that works as often as a professional but has no professional obligations.

[Anonymous No.10094034]

>>10091800
How the fuck is "wanting to create your own meaning" not hedonistic? Clearly gaining a sense of purpose wards off depression and should make you feel better, otherwise why care about it?

[Anonymous No.10094107]

>>10091499
This is literally the only thing marx was right about

[Anonymous No.10094121]

Imagine being this much of a fucking wageslave.

[Anonymous No.10094130]

>>10093440
Cuz you suck

[Anonymous No.10094141]

>>10094034
Are you that autistic /lit/ poster who constantly posts that everything everyone does or ever did from the dawn of time is inherently hedonistic and it boils down to that everyone is a hedonist?

[Anonymous No.10094146]

>>10094141
If there is no objective principal to live towards outside our own pleasure principal then this is obviously an indisputable fact
Hence why "making up your own meaning" is just self fellating hedonism in denial

[Anonymous No.10094149]

>>10094141
He's probably just a hedonist who gets pleasure out of this

[Anonymous No.10094163]

>>10091537
Outside stimulus you chimp

[Anonymous No.10094228]

>>10094141
I have no idea who you're talking about, but if you're motivation for doing something is to feel better rather than worse, then it's hedonistic. If you restrict hedonism to "mindless addition to instant gratification" type pleasure seeking, then you're not wrong, but that's just clearly retarded.

There are moral paradigms other than hedonism, but most people are dishonest about their actual supposed value.

[Anonymous No.10094231]

>>10091930
weird, heavy weight training and cardio make me feel great

[Anonymous No.10094232]

>have to go to high school again for three (3) years to get a license to do carpentry
Thanks social democracy

[Anonymous No.10094246]

>>10093994
>the point of life is to evade hardship
please leave /lit/ forever

[Anonymous No.10094260]

I want to give up on work and life.

[Anonymous No.10094264]

>>10091309
This is actually so true. I was super depressed as a teenager and then, almost instantly, when I got a job, my life was better. It does make you feel 100x worse when you are bad at your job though.

[Anonymous No.10094299]

>>10091309
I think Gavin McInnes put it very nicely when he said that a cold beer after spending a few hours building and painting a fence is the best beer you'll ever have in your life. My father and uncle, who regularly go out and cut down trees for firewood every year or two, also say that everything tastes better in the woods. Probably, in part, it's because you're doing productive work. But yeah, I find doing productive things make me feel good, even better when it's something productive and physical. Spending a solid hour writing 1500-2000 words feels great, sure, but doesn't give QUITE as much satisfaction as walking to the grocery store and walking back with a backpack and a couple bags of groceries, thereby stocking up.

Purpose, I believe, can be a huge cure for depression and melancholy. Perhaps that's only part of it, after all if you know your purpose then you can make effort to strive towards that purpose. How do you strive towards it? You do something productive to get you there. Perhaps it is productivity, not purpose, that is such an effective cure for being blue.

[Anonymous No.10094314]

>>10093999
Butcher here. I agree, skilled manual labor is über satisfying.
My boss is an old rich butcher (he works with us 10 hours) who does gardening in the free time.
He laughs about his office employees all the time.

[Anonymous No.10094321]

>>10093999
Butcher here. I agree, skilled manual labor is über satisfying.
My boss is an old rich butcher (he works with us 10 hours a day) who does gardening in the free time.
He laughs about his office employees all the time.

[Anonymous No.10094370]

>>10094021

It seems good but to be fair I have not had my first day yet so it could be a living hell. From the description from my boss (who seems to be a communist which I approve of), though, it seems relaxed.

When I do manual labour I pace myself and work pretty slowly. I'm hoping that won't be much of an issue or I will feel comfortable enough in the tasks in order to do them at the speed of my colleagues if they do it faster.

[Anonymous No.10094379]

I work a white collar job and I die inside every day. My hands produce nothing but excel documents.

[Anonymous No.10094387]

>>10094379
yeah but do you excel at your job

[Anonymous No.10094392]

>>10091427
> am I the only /lit/ Punjabi?

[Anonymous No.10094403]

>>10094387
sure, I guess. the financial services industry is incredible mediocre as a whole.

[Anonymous No.10094407]

>>10091537
There is no reason to believe everything must come from something. In fact reason suggests the opposite.

[Anonymous No.10094414]

>>10091623
>I don't see how understanding the mechanisms of things diminishes their value.
It proves them to not be fundamentally unlike other things while value implies distinction.

[Anonymous No.10094419]

>>10094403
I can't make sense of this post. Are you syaing that you work in financial services, do a lot of 'guessing', and this is a good thing?

[Anonymous No.10094446]

>>10094228
>I have no idea who you're talking about
Mention the word "hedonism" in any thread on /lit/ and he will appear. By his reasoning, ANY action one takes is derived from pleasure thereby making them a filthy hedonist. In fact the only way one could not be a hedonist is if one was in a coma, although even there if the body twitches involuntarily it will be in response to some nerve seeking to escape mild pain or discomfort, therefore seeking a more pleasurable outcome, therefore coma patient = hedonist.

[Anonymous No.10094447]

>>10094419
I do work in the industry. I meant that most people in the industry I've come into contact with are not particularly great at their jobs. Most people are just decent. Everyone is satisfied with status quo and doesn't want to try and make things better for people because it's too much work.

[Anonymous No.10094505]

>>10091674
it's the other way around

[Anonymous No.10094517]

>>10091309

I never understood this, I have only experienced true existential grief through working long merciless hours doing manual labor. All that passes through my mind is the fact that I am wasting my days working for a job and a world that doesn't care if I die the next day, how can a man's dignity be that insulted unless he had no intelligence or dignity in the first place?

Tolstoy did not work manual labor, he just wrote all day. What does he know of the laborers life? Manual labor is not an anti-depressant, the depression it creates is a distraction from the drama of the world.

[Anonymous No.10094527]

>>10093490
>mom asks me to dig up the plants that are dying in the garden
>hours of manual labor that left me fulfilled, exhausted, and cleansed

I should be a shepherd

[Anonymous No.10094532]

>feel depressed
>masturbate to sissy porn and eat my cum
>it gets worse

really makes you think...

[Anonymous No.10094537]

>>10094517
>Tolstoy did not work manual labor, he just wrote all day.

Read more

[Anonymous No.10094598]

>>10091518
>>10091521
>>10091552
>>10093221
>>10093962
>>10093991
>any mention of slightly to the left author
>reeeee cultural marxist jew cuck

>guy basically summarizes the marxist concept of alienation
>brillant, best post, wow, so tru

If I didn't know any better I'd say you guys don't actually read the authors you criticize hehe

[Anonymous No.10094612]

>>10094532
How does one eat cum? I always lose all interest in sexuality let alone perversion as soon as I orgasm. It's the ultimate moment of detached clarity.

[Anonymous No.10094616]

>>10093223
>tfw no Weil-tier waifu

[Anonymous No.10094617]

>>10094612
flip legs up and walk them down the wall behind you cum in your face

you can just cum in your hand and eat it off your fingers too

to avoid the regret just ruin the orgasm. as soon as you feel the cum moving through your dick, just let go and dont touch your penis at all. it still feels good and you stay horny after so no regret. you can keep fapping and get more orgasms

[Anonymous No.10094629]

>>10093994
Moron, I'm op and I would love to join them.

[Anonymous No.10094632]

>>10094598
you are an idiot, it's not the same thing
im tired and dont want to explain this to you

it's like saying people hate conservatives here because they tell /pol/lacks to fuck off

[Anonymous No.10094645]

>>10091810
They're just kids.

[Anonymous No.10094672]

>>10094228
Do you classify every positive feedback as pleasure?
If I choose to abstain from an earthly delight, I may feel healthier, have a free consciousness, feel more focused, be proud of my restraint, etc. But it doesn't seem right to call those ''good'' feelings pleasure, I mean, hedonism through asceticism? Actually that's starting to sound like some Lacanian stuff...

Anyway, I just think there's more to the human experience than ''feels good''. There's a plethora of positive emotions and sensations we can experience but not all of them are what we usually associate with the word pleasure. If you're going to reduce hedonism to the pursuit of happiness, then nothing distinguishes it from any other ethical philosophy.

I'm not arguing against hedonism, just against the ''everything is hedonistic'' reduction.

>>10094632
It's not the same things because, contrary to /pol/tards and the memes they adore, authors like Derrida, Foucault, Deleuze, Adorno and so on are actual good representatives of the left and warrant respect. If right-wingers wanna talk about Evola, Schmitt, Mill, etc then they're taken seriously, we do talk about these guys all the time, they're only shushed when they shitpost Kermit and infowars nuts.

[Anonymous No.10094684]

>>10094672
>If you're going to reduce hedonism to the pursuit of happiness, then nothing distinguishes it from any other ethical philosophy.

Brainlet

[Anonymous No.10094691]

>>10094684
Please enlighten me anon, what exactly did I get wrong there?

[Anonymous No.10094696]

>>10091499
>have worked shitty manual labor for years
>all the company cares about is profits.

If theres one thing ive learned in capitalist society is to take as much as you can from your company because they will take everything they can out of you

[Anonymous No.10094702]

>>10093999
This. I was an auto mechanic in high school and found it very enjoyable and I learned a lot but ultimately decided it was for me. I then got into carpentry and now I really enjoy going to work everyday because I get to create things with my hands and problem solve. You guys just need to learn to do something both physically active and mentally engaging for a living

[Anonymous No.10094709]

>>10094691
All you're doing is arbitrarily declaring a difference between "happiness" and "pleasure" without establishing what the actual difference is then showing a lack of awareness of even the idea of ethical systems which do not operate on a naive utilitarian basis
You're both ignorant and stupid

[Anonymous No.10094711]

>>10091406
They don't have to be held as mutually exclusive though. Theory lays the framework to more meaningful practice

[Anonymous No.10094733]

>>10091841

I'm actually an immigrant with a college degree that right now is worthless in my new country of residency. Resorting to blue collar jobs makes me deal with pathetic feelings of indignity and humiliation, but also a sense of freedom from my old professional responsibilities (health care).

[Anonymous No.10094744]

>>10094733
that's not a suicide attempt you dip he's trying to scam insurance money, which is why those dashcams are there in the first place

[Anonymous No.10094758]

>>10094709
Please don't call me names anon, I know you are smarter than me, you don't need to rub it in.

>a lack of awareness of even the idea of ethical systems which do not operate on a naive utilitarian basis
Okay, well...
>Utilitarianism
The utile = maximum happiness.
>Aristotelian virtues
Eudaimonia is happiness.
>Cynicism
Happiness is living like a dog!
>Stoicism
Happiness is to overcome passions!
>Ethical egoism
All that matters is your individual happiness.
>Kantian deontology
I guess that one doesn't fit the bill as easy.

Cultural relativism, Nietzschean ethics, etc don't factor in because they aren't prescriptive.
But it doesn't even matter if hedonism becomes indistinguishable from *all* normative ethics if we accept this premisse. If there is no difference between happiness and pleasure, then what actually distinguishes hedonism from utilitarianism specifically? It's a real question, how about actually responding it instead of coming at me with empty rhetoric?

>a difference between "happiness" and "pleasure" without establishing what the actual difference is
Historically, there has always been a difference. Pleasure is taken to mean satisfaction, gratification, and most of all desire fulfillment. Happiness is a much loftier, more abstract concept, the path to which usually involves abdicating from quenching certain desires, or desires in general.

[Anonymous No.10094776]

>>10094744

>Trick your insurance company by going for the wheels and not the hood.

[Anonymous No.10095155]

>>10091309
I'm currently a mathematician and I'm considering quitting to become a butcher or longshoreman or some kind of manual labor job. Anyone have experience doing the same?

[Anonymous No.10095170]

>>10095155
>I'm currently a mathematician
do you have a phd?
what is your field of work?

[Anonymous No.10095171]

>>10091499
>Everything you do is totally ephemeral and utilitarian
>utilitarian

It's not even utilitarian. I mean it is but only for the perpetuation of suffering.

[Anonymous No.10095181]

>>10095170
I have a masters in both philosophy and mathematics and right now I'm basically just a cryptography shill for the NSA. Prime areas of focus right now are number theory, cryptography, and complex analysis because I'm working on a paper that is at the intersection of those areas.

[Anonymous No.10095190]

>>10091309

There is no such thing as production. Nothing has ever been produced.

[Anonymous No.10095192]

>>10091606
Underrated if really terrible post. 10/schlemiel.

[Anonymous No.10095294]

>>10095181
Go on..

[Anonymous No.10095384]

>>10091499
society is too big for meaningful labor at the bottom ranks

[Anonymous No.10095467]

>>10093497
>modern medicine ruined us
I'm not dying of polio at six because people want to larp as greeks

[Anonymous No.10095553]

>>10095294
Do you want to know more about why I want to do manual labor or my math research?

[Anonymous No.10095556]

>>10091840
The definition is lacking. Maybe 'real' manual labor is more rewarding than the stuff that just barely skirts under the Wikipedia definition.

[Anonymous No.10095583]

>>10091930
I know how you feel. The solution is progressive calisthenics, done in private, every day for a short time. Treat it like a chore similar to taking a shower and it will never feel like anything worse than a chore. It's funny to see fitness authors show up fitness authors over and over again. If you looked into Rippetoe's SS, skim through Bronson's Solitary Fitness (it reads like a parody), ignore both and just do what I said.

[Anonymous No.10095673]

>>10091674
>Read book
Im trying to reduce my boredom, not increase it.

[Anonymous No.10095682]

>>10095673
Bookfags on suicide watch

[Anonymous No.10095683]

>>10095553
Both but also, what relations do you have to the NSA? Badge number perhaps?

[Anonymous No.10095717]

>>10094709
Not the anon you are talking to but you are the one who is arbitrarily tying pleasure and happiness so closely. They have for almost everyone in the west for the entirety of its recorded history been separate.

Epicurus may have for the most part lived a subdued life void of most active pleasures but the whole point of his live was still to maximize pleasure. If there was a pill you could take which would make you feel amazing all the time he would take it an abandon his philosophy. He abstains from alcohol because of the ill heath effects and hangovers. He agrees they give pleasure but over the course of a life it is outweighed. Ever decision is still about pleasure.
A stoic or Aristotelian by contrast aims to maximise virtue which might nessecirly means living a life where one might have to sometimes forgo any sort of pleasure with no negative sort of pleasurable counter-effect (like choosing to allow yourself to be captured, tortured and then killed to save your children).

[Anonymous No.10095737]

>>10091499
good post m8, sounds like you're an actual writer at heart

[Anonymous No.10095752]

I work part time at TK Maxx and I actually really enjoy it. Treating every customer with compassion and dignity really helped be at peace with retail

[Anonymous No.10095873]

>>10091499
>picking crops isn't the most ephemeral and utilitarian occupation
It's literally about keeping starvation away.

[Anonymous No.10095880]

Read Sun and Steel by Mishima. Him at his most crazy but it's an interesting memoir of an intellectual becoming cognizant of what the body can offer the mind.

I don't know why we have been cursed with consciousness.

[Anonymous No.10095883]

>>10095873
>people pick crops to fend off starvation in the western world
I feel like you didn't read anything in this whole thread except for that one sentence.

[Anonymous No.10095887]

>>10091606
>tfw it wasn't meant literally
They were freeing Them of their material chains and helped an entire people reach enlightement

[Anonymous No.10095971]

>>10094447
yeah to me it seems that would only apply if you don't live in the big city

[Anonymous No.10095976]

>>10095181
what do you think of cy twombly

[Anonymous No.10096336]

>>10093223
Where do I find a qt like Weil? Should I just remain single if I'm interested in mysticism?

[Anonymous No.10096408]

I work as a neet I suffer all day long but I try not to bother anyone.

[Anonymous No.10096450]

>>10096336
>>10094616
>pic related

[Anonymous No.10096695]

>>10093501
Thanks for the info. To make sure I understand this correctly, contractors seek out clients on their own and earn all the profit, but they can hire subcontractors to perform the work for them, which expands their potential income but also the amount of stress/work involved. However, some professions require subcontractors since the work can't be done by one person alone. Also, contracting gives you freedom to work only as needed, whereas a subcontractor must follow a schedule. Do I have that right? And does the latter group only work for single projects, or do their contracts extend for much longer?

[Anonymous No.10096775]

>>10096695
>contractors seek out clients on their own and earn all the profit
This is correct.

>but they can hire subcontractors to perform the work for them
As a contractor you hire people to be on wages to work for you, not other contractors. This means that the people working under a contractor are not subcontractors. Subcontracting is when you as a contractor reach an agreement with a business where they give you work to do for them where they get a cut off the total profit.
A subcontractor has complete power to turn down jobs they don't like and to complete in whatever days/hours they want to.
If you go through your post and replace the the word subcontractor with wage earner then everything you said is about them is correct.

>And does the latter group only work for single projects
It happens. A company is super busy, don't have the manpower to do an important job so they get you to help out for just that job. Usually what happens is you start accepting work from a company until either one of you don't like the arrangement anymore at some unspecified point in the future.

>And does the latter group only work for single projects, or do their contracts extend for much longer?
This is where it gets a little tricky. legally there is nothing stopping you from working with other firms at the same time/finding your own work but it comes down to how the person you are subcontracting to feels about it. It's a give and take. If you turn down too many jobs and except a lot of work from other people they might just stop giving you work altogether so they can give the jobs to someone else. That's also true with taking long holidays often. They might get sick of it and stop giving you work, pay you less for work or give you the shit jobs the other contractors won't touch.
The great thing about the relationship though is that they aren't your boss, you are both equals, you are both business owners. If they shaft you there will be other people willing to give you work because what you do is valuable. You have actual freedom and power.

[Anonymous No.10097689]

>>10091351
>building a house of logs is somehow productive just because it creates a tangible physical output
Why don't you build a fucking Lego instead and save some time

[Anonymous No.10097710]

Is it too late to do A season on trawler in Alaska? 16 hour days of lifting fish is where its at white boys

[Anonymous No.10097752]

>>10091537
I've nothing original to contribute, but this:
>>10091540

[Anonymous No.10097897]

>>10097689
What is your logic here? A well made log house provides shelter which is necessary for living and that is of the same value as building a house of lego bricks?

[Anonymous No.10097899]

>>10097897
a lego house does the same thing

[Anonymous No.10097914]

>>10097899
less painful to walk inside a log house

[Anonymous No.10097978]

>>10093223
self-delusion only goes so far.
As long as you're aware you're doing it, it's not the same as the genuine thing.
So basically you're arguing you'd have to be actually insane to enjoy menial labour

[Anonymous No.10098196]

>>10094537
Does raping peasant girls count as manual labour or white collar work?

[Anonymous No.10098205]

>feel depressed
>Work
>read/study
>start running
>Improve yourself
>still feel like utter shit

[Anonymous No.10098224]

>>10091499
This is too real, and I'm not even a commie.

I worked in fast food for two years, and whenever I tried to tell myself this is honourable work, that it's better than unemployment, some asshole of a manager or customer would bark at me for no good reason, and just as soon remind me that I am nothing more than a utility.

The fast food work environment serves 'immediate gratification' well because the degree of care put into food preparation is irrelevant so long as the customer's most basic, decadent cravings are satisfied. And, by the extraordinary chance a customer is actually unhappy with their food, they can gleefully exercise their right to remind the staff of their responsibility and, speaking more broadly, their place in society. It's a win-win situation either way (though maybe I just think too poorly of other people).

The only reason anyone would tolerate conditions like these is if they could be assured the fruits of their labour would certainly make themselves evident in the future, in the form of raise, or promotion, or a better job. That this is not guaranteed makes participating in the post-industrial workforce tantamount to slavery.

[Anonymous No.10098230]

>>10093223
Wasnt she that well to do sickly girl who wanted to work in a factory so a friend of her family made up a job to work so she wouldn't get hurt and even that proved to be too difficult for her?

[Anonymous No.10098246]

>>10093994
>Implying suffering is not relative
Read Civilization and it Discontents

[Anonymous No.10098267]

>>10091314
No - thinking makes you want to kill yourself, bitch.

[Anonymous No.10098739]

>>10098196
it's not rape if the parents of the girl consent

[Anonymous No.10098850]

>not monitoring your emotional and mental state 24/7 and having set up defense systems which detect oncoming affects, neuroses and feelsies from miles away
Do you even help yourself?

Start with the stoics and meditation.

[Anonymous No.10098902]

Historical materialism and classical marxism are literally the most illuminating frameworks to understand the modern world. Marx's economic work has been incredibly vindicated by history, and all the 20th century attempts to "humanize", in other words neuter Marxism by disassociating it from its proletarian character have proven to be short-sighted and unwise. Neoliberalism needs a straight hardline communist response, since it has fully integrated liberal post-Marxism into its academic hierarchy.

[Anonymous No.10098923]

>>10096775
Neat, thanks for clearing it up. I'll start looking into a trade soon.