/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.10046971]

>"""Classes""" for writing fiction
>Fucking HUNDREDS of dollars to enroll

Is this a fucking joke?

No, really, people actually pay HUNDREDS of dollars for this shit?

[Anonymous No.10046994]

I wouldn't pay that kind of money, but I would like to learn how to write a story.

[Anonymous No.10047009]

>>10046994

You can't be taught to write fiction. It's something you either pick up after 10,000 hours of practice or you don't. If it isn't in you at the start, no amount of "learning" is going to help.

[Anonymous No.10047016]

>>10046971
reading a lot, writing a lot and accepting criticism is all you need.

[Anonymous No.10047019]

>>10046994

You learn by writing, reading, enduring criticism, and learning to parse the good feedback from the bad. You develop an inner ear and follow it. I believe higher education should be for more than just STEM degrees, but duping talentless, gullible teenagers into dropping thousands of dollars for a degree in writing is asinine. The fact that same-sounding writers are pumped out en masse through MFA programs is also annoying.

[Anonymous No.10047032]

>>10047009
>>10047019
I read a lot, but I've never been able to come up with a story. Like I can appreciate a painting, but can't conceive of how to put oil on a canvas.

[Anonymous No.10048211]

>>10047032
reading definitely helps you get better, but you won't learn to write fiction just by reading it. you pretty much always learn it through writing some yourself while reading other people's work.

at least that's what I'm trying to do atm.

[Anonymous No.10048217]

>>10046971
There are people out there paying "pick-up artists". Think about that.

[Anonymous No.10048227]

The program era has produced nothing but trash, and the problem is the programs themselves.

[Anonymous No.10048704]

>>10048227
its all the shitty rules, I am baffled by the fact that some 18 y/o girl on youtube who has never been published thinks she know the rules of writing. But really all rules suck. Show don't tell? How about I show you my shit stained arsehole?!

Have you watched that ted talk thing, not actually a talk but some info-cartoon where she says how good showing, not telling is and then gives these heinous examples where just telling would be like 6000%+ times better.

Sometimes 'John wasn't happy' is better than 'Johns nob shriveled up in side his groin, his hair was a million worms with aids and he shit himself'

[sin No.10048864]

>>10046971
>>10047009
If one were to claim that writing is as much a craft as painting is, how would you react?

At the very least, a person must be aware of the fundamentals of writing and storytelling, and I think that's what these classes are for. I don't believe that they're pretending to be a "Hemingway in 60 days" sort of deal. I think it's being marketed to people who have no experience whatsoever in formal writing.

The online classes are nearly useless, sure, but the same organization also offers in-person classes in NYC, which are a thousand times better because of workshops that involve other attendees.

I'm only defending these guys because I bought their portable guide to the MFA, and it's actually pretty good.

[Anonymous No.10048905]

>>10048864
>If one were to claim that writing is as much a craft as painting is, how would you react?

Certaintly, but in much the same way that Art School will only make you alright at painint landscapes or portraits, Writing School is only going to make you good at writing essays and Non-fiction.

True Art requires creativity, something you can never just pick up from a school, something that separates the Picassos from the landscape-artists.

[Anonymous No.10048926]

>>10046971
You misunderstand anon, the concept of paying hundreds of dollars for writing classes IS the fiction, you're participating in the single greatest work of meta-fiction ever conceived.

[Anonymous No.10050151]

>>10048926

You say this, but I can't honestly think of a single book where the main plot is the character's fiction writing classes.

[Anonymous No.10050192]

At best, it can only teach you how to write formulaic bullshit that every other sub-par writer out there is writing and not getting publish.

Though....I guess technically it is teaching how to write, just not anything valuable.

[Anonymous No.10050194]

>>10046994
see >>10047009
>>10047019

There's only one similarity between all the best writers in history: none of them write the same. You can't learn someone elses "rules" for writing and expect to make it out well.

There's basics in grammar, discipline, proofing, but pretty much everything else is in the air. Characterization/plotting/time/themes/etc are entirely subjective.

Finnigans Wake and The Old Man and The Sea are both considered great or even Masterpieces.

[Anonymous No.10050201]

>>10050194

yeah, the only way you'll make it as a writer is to find a way to make your own unique style, or viewpoint. What pretentious snobs call a, "voice".

[Anonymous No.10050259]

>>10046971
People pay hundreds of dollars for ghostwritten books... why not pay hundreds to learn to write for yourself?

[Anonymous No.10050292]

I want to start writing

[Anonymous No.10050329]

>>10050292
ok, I give you my blessing

[Anonymous No.10050351]

>>10046971
Son, the point of college is not the material or your shitty degree, that's a worthless piece of paper, whether you have creative writing or computer science. You can learn all the stuff they teach in 1/10 of the time but it's still a better idea to give them thousands of petro dollars because it's all about networking. You want to meet some guys with connections in the industry. Hence you pay for the opportunity.

>>10048704
The point about "rules" is knowing, not following them, and the reason why they are considered "rules" is due the time proven qualities. It's like starting a video game and having the character die randomly for 2h without any tutorials, can work but is unlikely and will be considered bad game design by most, just like breaking "rules" without knowing why, is likely to end up with bad writing. Which isn't even an issue if it's the right amount of bad.

[Anonymous No.10051085]

>>10048704
>How about I show you my shit stained arsehole?!
Do americans really do this, do they really not wash their assholes?
>SHART IN MART

[Anonymous No.10051095]

>>10048905
>Writing School is only going to make you good at writing essays and Non-fiction.
Wrong, they teach you the basics of storytelling like narrative structure, character arcs, etc. Sure, it's really basic stuff that you intuitively pick up by reading a lot, but like the other anon said, this is probably directed to people with absolutely no experience with writing. Still, it's stuff you can get for free on the internet so I don't know why anyone would pay for this.

[Anonymous No.10051131]

>>10051095
You can get any type of knowledge for free on the Internet, it's just not very time efficient for most people who aren't good at finding information (most) and lacks the motivational aspects. Kinda like a gym. You can get fit without even leaving your room, gym still has obvious advantages.

[Anonymous No.10051653]

>>10050194
How can you talk about "the best writers in history" if it's all "entirely subjective"?

[Anonymous No.10051945]

>>10050194
Woke
>>10047019
Beyond Woke

[Anonymous No.10052015]

>>10051085
>arse
>american

get real chump

>>10050351

>The point about "rules" is knowing, not following them

I'm a very dogmatic man so maybe thats my problem

[Anonymous No.10052095]

>>10047032
Start small. Write a story where the joke is how bad it is. Or write a children's story. Or write a summary. Or even a single line of dialogue.

Don't worry if it sounds stupid. Just do it.

[Anonymous No.10052397]

>>10051653

The same way you understand what's trash and what's not when you walk into an Art Museum

[Anonymous No.10052725]

>>10052397
How very informative.

[Anonymous No.10053242]

>>10052725

Need me to tell you why you shouldn't put your hand in a fire too?

[Anonymous No.10053252]

>>10052725
Are you actually autistic?

Art isn't math, you can have people being brilliant in different styles, every great artist of whichever craft was unique on its own way. If everybody was the same it would be boring.

[Anonymous No.10054816]

>>10046971

>yfw the "rules of writing" are actually red herrings to keep plebs out of the buisness

[Anonymous No.10054844]

>>10054816
Not really. If you're a beginner and follow them all (ignoring the contradictory stuff) your work is bound to have some base level of quality. A beginner not knowing any of the rules, is much more likely to mess everything up.

It's just eventually you'll have to break them to write something that stands out, and hey, it's still preferable to know them. Writing is just communication and there are ways that improve communication, basic shit like looking at your audience instead of looking away for example, UNLESS you want to communicate your aloofness.

[Anonymous No.10055456]

>>10047019
MFA programs don't really teach you how to write. You don't get in if you don't already have the basics down and at least a polished sampling of stories to show. Really it's more of a way to get decent feedback, which is the way every writer--even the ones who never take a class--learn and get better.

And if you're smart, you'll only do it if you don't have to pay. Hard to be down on 2-3 years of funded writing with editors provided to you.

[Anonymous No.10055578]

>>10047009
>>10050194
Writing isn't black magic, it is a skill like any other. It just requires work. Getting published is another skill. Both are not to be mixed up, they are not the same.

[Anonymous No.10055589]

How do I get better at writing?

Please don't suggest that I just write. That's like saying to someone who has never driven before "just drive".

[Anonymous No.10055590]

>>10046971
this is the modern version of victorian era elites paying for private tutelage or patronizing artists
it's not to get good, it's to show off to your rich friends that you can afford an artist / the time to pursue a leisure pursuit

[Anonymous No.10055592]

>>10055589
don't crash

[Anonymous No.10055600]

>>10055589
But you should just write, nobody can get good just by theorycraft, you need to put your hands into your craft, a lot of stuff is only learnable through actually doing it. Besides writing takes a shitload of willpower and concetration.

If you insist in live in some fantasy where everything you write is 100% perfect and flawless, just have a huge quality control and only show people the best of your best.

[Anonymous No.10055867]

>>10055589
>That's like saying to someone who has never driven before "just drive".
Simulators are a thing. Besides, writing is closer to other arts like drawing or music, no matter how much you read about these, you won't really improve before you write shit, realise that it's shit and rewrite it into a tiny bit less shit version.

Also follow mah girl on YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCS_fcv9kBpDN4WWrfcbCrgw/videos
Just never take any writing advice too serious. Everything you read and hear about writing are suggestions to consider, not rules set in stone to follow.

[Anonymous No.10055981]

>>10055867
>Following shitty e-celeb
>A fucking chick on top of that

Get skin cancer and die

[Anonymous No.10056131]

>>10055867
Girls don't write good books though. That's like taking driving lessons from Paul Walker.

[Anonymous No.10056151]

>>10056131
Girls don't do nothing as good as a man except taking a dick

>inb4 muh sexism
At least not modern ones

[Anonymous No.10056166]

>>10055589
1) Read
2) Write
3) Print out what you write
4) Ask others to read it and for their feedback
5) Read it yourself after a break
6) Take in all the criticism, re-write, re-focus, re-architect, re-write, etc.

It's important to print out what you write so that you can make a lot of notes really fast about what you like and don't like. This is like somebody writing software actually compiling and using the application they've developed, or a musician playing back something they've written.

It's important to put time between the writing and re-working of a thing, so you can let go of those awesome, special phrases you think are the bomb, and see them for what they are.

It's important to re-write what you write, and finish what you write.


We also live in a society where endless entertainment can be had at the click of a button. Right now, I could watch pretty much any movie or TV show ever made. This takes a toll on the reward system, which is constantly being rewarded and becomes jaded. Part of your toolset should be the ability to unplug from the world and focus on more wholesome, engaging and long-term activities.

[Anonymous No.10056220]

>>10055589
Don't listen to this people telling you to write, just see yt videos and you will be fine

[Anonymous No.10056237]

>>10056131
All the advice is universal, might as well hear it from someone not painful to look at. She didn't even follow the stuff she said in her books, but again, it's not really the point.

It's more like having Paul Walker read road safety tips. The messenger might as well be an animated turd if that's more to your liking.

>>10056151
>implying you know any modern women sans your mother

>>10056220
>having the reading comprehension of a 4 year old

[Anonymous No.10056342]

>>10056151
Absolute cringe