So what are you to take away from the Book of Job?

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Anonymous Mon Sep 18 23:39:25 2017 No.10042431 [Reply] [Original]

So what are you to take away from the Book of Job?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 18 23:41:45 2017 No.10042439 >>10042431 God's a nihilist.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 18 23:45:41 2017 No.10042451 >>10042431 The problem of evil, while emotionally powerful, is not a very good argument against the God of the Bible.

Anonymous Mon Sep 18 23:46:07 2017 No.10042455

Unironically "God works in mysterious ways; it's all calculated on his part".

IMO, the Book of Job isn't really meant for non-believers -- in the sense that it'll probably turn them off from believing more than anything else. But for believers, it can be pretty comforting to know that one's doubts about God's goodness and justness have been asked before and that, in at least one place, those doubts have been laid to rest.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 18 23:46:29 2017 No.10042456 >And then god spoke: 'give me a hand, Job' really?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 18 23:48:13 2017 No.10042460 >>10042439 I was going to write something very long, but it was basically an extended version of this.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 18 23:48:18 2017 No.10042462 >>10042439 Vanity of vanity, only a pathetic fool wastes his existence through fighting discomfort and pain.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 18 23:52:37 2017 No.10042474 women and children are disposable

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 18 23:54:03 2017 No.10042479 >>10042431 Employment.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 18 23:55:02 2017 No.10042481 >>10042456 GIMME A HANDJOB SKOOKS

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 18 23:55:21 2017 No.10042484 God is a real pos

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 18 23:58:24 2017 No.10042489 God's an asshole and likes to watch you suffer.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 00:01:32 2017 No.10042497 I don't get Gods reply, it seems like a fallacy. "I was there in the beginning". That sounds like fans of a band bragging that they knew about them longer and are therefore more entitled to be "truer fans"

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 00:05:01 2017 No.10042508 >>10042497 KEK

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 00:05:34 2017 No.10042510 >The Book of Job >main character becomes unemployed almost immediately

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 00:09:22 2017 No.10042524
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Guys I need to cut out the religious urge inside of me, the constant study of theological books, Christian writers, watching hours long conferences, reading internet forums on the subject...

I don't even frequent Church and I'm rather atheist, but in the past few months - I've been hardcore studying the history of western world, and came to the conclusion that Christianity - mainly the mind, the operating system I may permit myself to say... allowed the birth of modernism, which is awesome so to speak.
This paired with rational arguments from Pascal, Euler, Duhem, Gödel ( mainly his modular logic argument ) and many others...

What came shocking to me and ONLY hurt me more... is that the human soul is of such complexity that Christian soul can explain it - to a level that if Christian faith is wrong/false the soul became perverted somehow - or this potential of it suddenly looks like a lie for me now.

The study of religion became a time consuming activity, I genuine need help to cut it out - all I want is that you guys suggest me some books that could come as medicine for my sick soul in this matter.

I'm a sad religion addict, that needs help - have mercy on me.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 00:32:51 2017 No.10042607 File: 9 KB, 401x367, jKf7krc.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10042451

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 01:56:50 2017 No.10042849 >>10042497 God is the original oldfag

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 01:58:53 2017 No.10042854 >>10042431 Well, that uncertainty is important. Also, this ties in with the new Milton criticism.

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 02:07:40 2017 No.10042874

The entire lesson is contained in God's asking of Job "Would you condemn me so that you might be justified?"

Just think how absurd and impious it is to hold yourself in higher esteem than God himself. God isn't beholden to you and your personal sense of morality. God is perfectly good, and if you think he does something that isn't good, then you are saying you are better than God and know better than God...which is idiotic.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 02:25:40 2017 No.10042910 >>10042874 Who calls God perfect good? Kids with bone cancer?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 03:03:04 2017 No.10042978 >>10042910 >Judging the righteousness of God by human standards and from human perspectives. wew lad

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 04:07:25 2017 No.10043091 >>10042978 Yea in the end it's just fantasy, why bother or consume energy, billions of souls on this planet barely even heard of Jesus, nor the "truth" of God has any impact on their minds or their societies.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 04:12:11 2017 No.10043102 >>10042431 Life's a bitch and then you die.

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 04:51:23 2017 No.10043211

>>10042978
>made in God's image
>Christians often harping on about God given consciousness and morality

>but dude you don't even understand morality, God's not inconsistent and evil, he's just omnipotent, do as he says, not as He does, it's not hypocrisy, he's just transcendent LMAO

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 04:53:32 2017 No.10043221 >>10042431 The poem is about how God is beyond human comprehension The prose intro and epilogue were probably added later to make it about obedience to God

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 04:57:56 2017 No.10043236 >>10042524 Cosmic Trigger

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 05:07:02 2017 No.10043275

>>10043211
These are not new ideas. Human goodness and morality consists in a likening to that which is Godlike or divine. This isn't achieved purely through reason.

Socrates: Now because it cannot be taught, virtue no longer seems to be knowledge?

Meno: It seems not.

Socrates: So it is not by some kind of wisdom, or by being wise, that such men lead their cities, those such as Thermistocles and those mentioned by Anytus just now? That is the reason why they cannot make others be like themselves, because it is not knowledge which makes them what they are.

Meno: It is likely to be as you say, Socrates.

Socrates: Therefore, if it is not through knowledge, the only alternative is that it is through right opinion that statesmen follow the right course for their cities. As regards knowledge, they are no different from prophets. They too say many things when inspired, but they have no knowledge of what they are saying.

Meno: That is probably so.

Socrates: And so, Meno, is it right to call divine these men who, without understanding, are right in much that is of importance in what they say and do?

Meno: Certainly.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 05:08:14 2017 No.10043280 >>10043221 I really dislike the cheapened ending. You can tell it was added on.

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 05:14:19 2017 No.10043313

Job is the earliest book in terms of when it was written chronologically, and it is a type or a forecast of the entire bible. By that I mean that the lessons found in the bible were first written in Job.

Job says 'God is just, everything and everyone else is wrong,' which is one of the big declarations of the Bible, beginning to end.

Job's 4 associates invent various perspectives on things, basically inventing reasons for why Job is suffering, related to his own sins, tradition, moral testing, or just arbitrary fate. This is consistent with human reasoning and religion.

At the end God first speaks to Job, saying in essence 'where were you when I created everything?' The interesting bit here is that a lot of the words used are architectural in nature, lending credibility to the proposal that Job was an architect, not just a farmer.

And then God speaks to the friends saying, 'Job will pray for you.'

So to answer OP's question, it's basically the true introduction to the Bible, the first book so to speak.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 05:21:52 2017 No.10043345 File: 38 KB, 530x474, weil in marseilles.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10042431 That we must prefer a real hell to an imaginary heaven

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 05:31:09 2017 No.10043382 >>10042455 this is the pleb tier reading. god's an asshole is the patricians reading

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 05:32:11 2017 No.10043387 >>10042431 God is a sadistic fag.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 05:34:29 2017 No.10043397 >>10043382 "God's an asshole" is the "I never read it or any scholarship on it" reading.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 05:49:08 2017 No.10043437 >>10043091 needing theologists to tell you the correct interpretation is exactly why you're pleb

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 05:51:42 2017 No.10043447 >>10043437 such a pleb thing to do, listening to experts who have spent decades studying the text instead of going with my first impression based on my preconceived notions. haha what a pleb xD

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 05:53:39 2017 No.10043452 >>10043447 exactly, instead of studying the works yourself and coming to your own conclusions you seek the easy way out

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 05:56:20 2017 No.10043458 >>10043452 unlike you we don't work at starbucks with a philo degree. We have actual jobs to do, so we read a bunch of different theologists and come to our own conclusion

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 05:56:25 2017 No.10043459

>>10043397

Indeed, and thus the patrician choice. The patrician doesn't concern himself with the snivelling slave morality of the sexual deviants who derive pleasure (for that is the only explanation for their eagerness to justify) from being dominated and cast into submission by an omnipotent being.

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 06:01:31 2017 No.10043465

>>10043458
When we read, someone else thinks for us; we repeat merely his mental
process. It is like the pupil who, when learning to write, goes over with his pen
the strokes made in pencil by the teacher. Accordingly, when we read, the
work of thinking is for the most part taken away from us. Hence the noticeable
relief when from preoccupation with our thoughts we pass to reading. But
while we are reading our mind is really only the playground of other people’s
ideas; and when these finally depart, what remains? The result is that, whoever
reads very much and almost the entire day but at intervals amuses himself with
thoughtless pastime, gradually loses the ability to think for himself; just as a
man who always rides ultimately forgets how to walk. But such is the case with
very many scholars; they have read themselves stupid. For constant reading,
which is at once resumed at every free moment, is even more paralysing to the
mind than is manual work; for with the latter we can give free play to our own
thoughts. Just as a spring finally loses its elasticity through the constant
pressure of a foreign body, so does the mind through the continual pressure of
other people’s ideas. Just as we upset the stomach by too much food and
thereby do harm to the whole body, so can we cram and strangle the mind by
too much mental pabulum. For the more we read, the fewer the traces that are
left behind in the mind by what has been read. It becomes like a blackboard
whereon many things have been written over one another. Hence we never
come to ruminate;* but only through this do we assimilate what we have read,
just as food nourishes us not by being eaten but by being digested. On the other
hand, if we are for ever reading without afterwards thinking further about what
we have read, this does not take root and for the most part is lost. Generally
speaking, it is much the same with mental nourishment as with bodily; scarcely
a fiftieth part of what is taken is assimilated; the rest passes off through
evaporation, respiration, or otherwise.
In addition to all this, is the fact that thoughts reduced to paper are
generally nothing more than the footprints of a man walking in the sand. It is
true that we see the path he has taken; but to know what he saw on the way, we
must use our own eyes.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 06:04:35 2017 No.10043477 >>10043459 Get off /lit/, you don't belong here.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 06:05:41 2017 No.10043478 >>10043452 >This is your brain without formal education.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 06:08:09 2017 No.10043481 >>10043465 Your pasta is shit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 06:10:38 2017 No.10043489 >>10043481 wow schopenhauer BTFO

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 06:13:04 2017 No.10043495 >>10043489 sorry, pasta formatting*

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 12:43:36 2017 No.10044614 i learned that the Demiurge is a narcissistic sadist

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 12:58:56 2017 No.10044658
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>>10042431

God had a rigged gamble with Satan to prove that Job was the best guy in the universe. He lets Satan slaughter his entire family, servants and all of his animals. Then his friends, who somehow managed to avoid getting divine intervention'd, spend the next few pages telling Job he must have angered God in some way. Then God himself descends upon Job to deliver a righteous verbal pegging. Job decides that he IS a worthless piece of trash (Even though he got into this whole mess by being the best man in the universe) and God says "Work the balls too, bitch" and Job obliges. After Job wipes God's wisdom off his face and neck he receives a brand new set of children, servants, animals and a new house.

>Don't be too good or else God will 'test' you.

>God is a gamblin' man

>God has regular, casual conversations with Satan

>Your wife, children and employees are disposable

>Your friends will just harangue you if you ask for help

>Job has a severe case of battered wife syndrome

>God's explanation for wiping out his entire family is "lol you weren't around when I created the universe fucking faggot get on my level"

>God's other explanation for cruelty is a series of elementary science questions.

>Doesn't matter, God gave him new sons and daughters, and the daughters were HOTTER and possibly even THICCER than the last ones.

Short version: If you're too good god will slaughter your family, but it's ok because god is right since he's older than you and he can replace your family with an even hotter family.

Imagine being one of Job's servants. You bring him food, clean his house, earn a little bit of money and then suddenly you get smitten by god almighty himself while he's trying to prove a point.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 12:59:27 2017 No.10044660 >>10042431 God has a tough job

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 13:10:14 2017 No.10044684 >>10042431 These guys do a great job summarizing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GswSg2ohqmA

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 13:13:55 2017 No.10044697

>>10043221
God shows that poor guy that world is complex, although it is self sufficient and because it's complex God implied why the fuck he should bother with humans :^), snakes and insects are more important to weight in when deciding to cure bonce cancer of a kid or not... but yet again this is just fiction today we know that nature is self-sufficient and God of the gaps has been pushed far away.

Bible and new testament has a lot of inconsistency with reality that will move most intellectuals away from religion day 1, without ever returning back and suffering 0 repercussions of their cognitive process.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 13:16:13 2017 No.10044708 >>10043313 I'm 100% certain that according to the style of that book and scholars consensus it was not written by Jewish culture, rather just borrowed in their literature.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 13:17:53 2017 No.10044714 >>10043465 This is why you memorize what you read not just read for the sake of reading.

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 20:59:33 2017 No.10046518

>>10042978
whose other standards are we gonna use? If we say "God is justified by standards that humans do not understand," we are once-again conceding to human standards of understanding -- the human understanding of the idea of "something humans do not understand." By bringing any of it into human language, it inherently falls under human understanding.

>>	"Anonymous" Tue Sep 19 21:16:42 2017 No.10046571 Zizek's reading of it is that it's catastrophe all the way up. >>10043345 >discover author/thinker >get on /lit/ next day >someone posts them IT KEEPS HAPPENING

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 21:18:50 2017 No.10046578 Job is basically what Plato talks about in The Republic.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 21:33:14 2017 No.10046646 What I got from it is that bad things will happen to everyone, righteous or not. And it's wrong to accuse God of wrongdoing, as his perspective on running the universe is better than anyone else's.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 21:36:36 2017 No.10046657 >>10042431 Man cannot comprehend the actions of God, and theodicy is ultimately futile in light of this. All you can do is worship.

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 21:37:23 2017 No.10046661

It isn't up to the defendant to question the judge, the charge, and the society that created the legal structure. You can dislike the prosecutor, but that's his job. The duty of the defendant is only his actions, and remembering that the judge is just.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 21:39:30 2017 No.10046667 >>10046578 Elaborate.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 21:42:57 2017 No.10046680 >>10043275 Popper was right when he regarded Plato and Aristotle as the forerunner of totalitarianism

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 21:45:34 2017 No.10046687

>>10042524
>the human soul is of such complexity that Christian soul can explain it- to a level that if Christian faith is wrong/false the soul became perverted somehow- or this potential of it suddenly looks like a lie for me now

I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you were saying here at all. Could you break it down for a poor brainlet?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 21:46:40 2017 No.10046692 >>10042451 that's an opinion. an argument starts at propositions that support the conclusion.

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 21:50:42 2017 No.10046709

>>10046680
Wrong.

"The modern view that Plato's completely good city is some form of totalitarian society stems from... his criticisms of democracy and his censorship of the arts. This modern view is much contradicted by Plato's placing tyranny as the polar opposite of his completely good and just city. One has to understand this polar opposition before modern criticism can stick. Plato would have a hard time understanding Popper's criticisms; yes, Plato thought of his just society as anti-democratic, but the direct democracy Plato criticized is far removed from our representative democracies and does not exist anywhere among modern nation states, just as his ideal city does not. The moderns tend to think that if a regime is not democratic then it is totalitarian. Plato's completely good city is the rule of knowledge, not the rule of power, or honor, or wealth, or freedom and equality." (198)

From Gerasimos Santas, Understanding Plato's Republic (2010).

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 21:53:09 2017 No.10046716

>>10042874

SEE:

Euthyphro dilemma

You're basically saying 'good' is arbitrary because god does not follow the rules, just makes them, where as, if god did good because it is good - like a 'perfect good' would be in categorical senses - then god is pointless outside a judge and policeman.

AND, if you seem to think our senses cant beholden the nature of god, then why the fuck do you feel so confident about your illogical response?

You seem to just be guessing at categories also; so, lets just assume we have the knowledge of categories and logic to guide them, else there is no sense in structurally using our brains as their intended purpose, to ask questions only these parts can ponder - and do.

In other-words, you are beholden to your logic in argument, not god in the material universe, right now. IN that, your answer does not suffice the logical forms we all have access to, yet you seem to believe you supercead on 'god's behalf', lol

Christianity is built on the martyr mentality, and if your not defending it as a victim somehow, you're not a true christian; which explains you acting like Job over here with your 'justified' talk.

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 22:07:29 2017 No.10046768

>>10046709
I'm not even responding to the Republic but ok. Popper's criticism of Plato doesn't even respond to his censure of democracy or the arts. He calls him the forerunner of totalitarianism because he was the first utopian, the first person to suggest restructuring society in the mold of what he deemed correct. Not to mention Plato naturally places himself, as philosopher-king, among the elite of the ideal city.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 22:14:11 2017 No.10046786 >>10046716 SEE: Form of the Good. Christianity answers Euthypros dilemma definitively by claiming that goodness CONSISTS in God. Socrates gives two options in Euthyphro. Christianity is the embodiment of one of those options.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 23:12:43 2017 No.10046967 >>10042439 >>10042451 Both of these.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 23:14:57 2017 No.10046976 That life is horrifying and the universe is indifferent to your suffering.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 23:15:21 2017 No.10046978 >>10042524 Congratulations you're transforming into a non-brainlet. Did you read Aquinas at least?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 23:16:44 2017 No.10046981 >>10043102 that's why we get high

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 23:23:13 2017 No.10047012 The real redpill on the Book of Job is that the Leviathan is Satan.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 23:31:04 2017 No.10047033 >>10047012 Explain Are you talking about the "big and frightening and would eat you but not evil" part or the part where he's a giant sea monster?

Anonymous Tue Sep 19 23:36:10 2017 No.10047049

>>10047033
Leviathan is a symbol of Satan.

Job would've understood; Leviathan was known in those ancient cultures as the enemy of God or the gods.

It clicked in Job's mind that Satan was the cause of his suffering, and that Job had no power over Satan, who is invincible. Only God has any control whatsoever over Satan.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 23:37:52 2017 No.10047056 File: 85 KB, 645x729, 1505878672681.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10047049 I still don't get it

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 19 23:38:54 2017 No.10047058 >>10047056 I didn't even mean to spoiler that

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 01:38:31 2017 No.10047340 >>10047056 Read the last four paragraphs. What don't you get? "He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride" Everyone knows Pride is Satans original sin.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 01:43:13 2017 No.10047351 >>10042431 The creator god is a sociopath and we're nothing but rats in his game.

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 01:44:29 2017 No.10047354

>>10042431
We are toys in the celestial playground, made to be used, abused and thrown away. God is petulant enough to gamble his toys in a bet he already knows he can win. He cares more about his own pride than your well being. Job's reward is incidental in this, though it also clearly shows that women and children are property to be gambled and rewarded with.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 01:51:00 2017 No.10047365 >>10042431 I ain't readin' no fuckin' book of jobs, sheeeiiit!

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 03:07:46 2017 No.10047539 >>10042874 >"Would you condemn me so that you might be justified?" Of course I would. Knowing one's mind and thinking without fear and shame can only lead to this conclusion.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 03:14:21 2017 No.10047555 An unknowable God is indistinguishable from the Materialist-Positivist-Darwinian Cosmos, and equally useful for justifying endless suffering.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 03:14:43 2017 No.10047557 >>10047539 Good luck with that, buckaroo.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 03:15:45 2017 No.10047563 >>10042431 God's fairness and existence is contingent on self awareness if what little we have been given is a blessing from circumstance.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 03:19:36 2017 No.10047572 >>10047555 God isn't unknowable. I mean, he left us an entire Church. In fact, you can actually go see him there every Sunday, anon.

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 03:23:35 2017 No.10047577

>There have been many that have said
>that death is like a deep sleep
>but it is not peaceful and it is not restful
>and the ones that have told you this
>seek only to make themselves feel better
>better about what life is
>but I do not care for your feelings
>because your feelings are meaningless, completely
>and utterly
>meaningless
>weightless.
>Death is a great horror:
>immediately upon leaving the body
>the deceased human being becomes the sole spectator
>of a marvelous panorama of hallucinatory visions
>all things became the cloudless sky
>and a mountain of clearest glass
>opens up from the blackness
>and punctuates the air above it with it’s fingers
>and causes pure death to rain towards him
>and there are no words to describe
>what it is truly like
>you cannot know it
>it as if god himself
>had bled out onto the ground
>and everywhere, everywhere
>is the stain of it
>we are soaked in it
>and it all smells of copper
>but this is false!
>it is a spectre
>it is a phantom
>anguish of a writhing spirit
>reflected against the purest backdrop of nothingness
>because, oh, the death of a god! the pain of his blood!
>that would give meaning.
>But there is no god in death!
>you will not see him, you will not find him.
>god is deathless.
>what use does god have for death?
>that father of all things
>what use has he for a broken toy? what use has he for the shattered vase,
>the broken vessel?
>what use has god for death?
>and what use has god for the dead?
>when you die you pass out of god’s realm.
>you pass from his sight.
>and the spirit stays
>cocooned in the glass mountain
>wrapped in those beautiful un-lights
>until, whispered into his ear
>those cold, nothing words
>shudder downwards in a spiral
>and, like earth spinning into water
>broken apart into pieces unlimited in number
>their very force causes deep lines of fracture
>to appear in the very face of the mountain
>those awe sounds and radiances
>first pitch upwards
>rising screams and calls
>and then finally cease altogether
>the silence echoing everywhere
>lingering in space
>and through every time
>and the visions of the Afterdeath stop
>and in one clean perfect moment
>of absolute, impenetrable nothingness
>everything simply
>stops.

Reminder that this is the likely consequence of Faith.

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 03:34:24 2017 No.10047598

>>10047577
>what use has god for death?
>and what use has god for the dead?

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Article 460:
"For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God. For the Son of God became man so that we might become God. The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 03:56:16 2017 No.10047627

>>10043477

True. This place is full of cunts who are too cowardly to do anything but shitpost ironically, and couldn't string two sentences together about praise even about the things they love the most.

Even worse than those however, are those who proselytize their contrarian pseudofaith on the most degenerate place on the web without realizing that it is a contradictio in adjecto, and who don't even realize that any browsing of 4chan is an expression of acedia, and most of their posts are expressions of wrath, pride and envy. That's four of the deadly sins already. Browsing the internet mindlessly in your fleeting youth, for hours on end, is just about one of the biggest insults to God's creation that you can give.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 04:04:19 2017 No.10047640 >>10046571 synchronicity or God is posting on 4chan. I'm pretty sure it's the latter but I can't prove it.

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 04:04:33 2017 No.10047642

>>10046709

>Ruling class determines who works with what
>Ruling class is the only ones with access to proper (in Platonic terms) education
>Ruling class determines who goes into eugenic reproduction programs and who doesn't get to breed
>It's okay though, they're always "correct"
>knowledge and power are in no way related

Plato believes in radical value absolutism - this, combined with the belief that insight into this absolutism is possible, implies either totalitarianism or idiocracy, by necessity. Plato is quite adamant in the fact that it should be a totalitarian republic, with every aspect determined by the ruling class with access to wisdom.

Is Gerasimos Santas an academic? Because that gives me hope. If they can get published with such easily dispelled horseshit, there's hope for anyone.

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 04:09:05 2017 No.10047654

>>10047627

While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him.When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

On hearing this, Jesus said to them,“It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 04:11:21 2017 No.10047660 >>10047654 >comparing your shitposting on 4chan to the acts of Christ Pride. That's the worst one of them! Nicely done.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 04:12:16 2017 No.10047664 >>10047642 >>Ruling class is the only ones with access to proper (in Platonic terms) education Wrong. Reread Republic my dear man, if you have read it at all, which I now suspect you haven't.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 04:13:30 2017 No.10047666 >>10047660 "For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you."

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 04:20:05 2017 No.10047683 >>10047598 Is there ANY facet of Psychopathy that is not part of mainstream Theodicy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchausen_syndrome_by_proxy

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 04:25:22 2017 No.10047693

>>10047664

It's been a while since I read that dear old fascist, sure. As I remember it, the other ones are sorted from the kings before they reach Plato's conception of intellectual maturity. Thus they're not given access to the higher levels of education. My use of the word access was maybe misguided. I'll concede and say "not given the proper education" then instead, because they're too dumb, kicked out of school in grade 10, and should be cobblers and servants instead.

Even I concede your point, you haven't touched the argument that it implies totalitarianism. Classic /lit/, making comments on haven't having read the book instead of touching the actual thought. Totalitarianism, by definition, is "the political concept that the citizen should be totally subject to an absolute state authority". Do you disagree that Plato's republic implies this? Whether or not it's "true, beautiful and good" is irrelevant to the definition of totalitarianism.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 04:26:25 2017 No.10047695 >>10047666 Would you look at the digits God gave you? Do 4chan Christians believe in divine signs?

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 04:33:25 2017 No.10047714 >>10047695 Spooky.

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 04:48:40 2017 No.10047728

>>10047693
Good post/conversation. Sorry, I'm always on the defensive and quick to dismiss others in this cesspool.

There are a few reasons why I don't want to call Kallipolis a prelude to totalitarianism.
1. The citizens have more rights than the rulers.
2. The process for choosing rulers is based on an educational meritocracy.
3. Reason precedes power in Kallipolis, not vice versa.
4. Your definition of totalitarianism is a strange one. "The political concept that the citizen should be totally subject to an absolute state authority". Isn't every citizen subject to absolute state authority, whether that authority rests in a polling booth, the nays and ayes of a Senate, monarchical decrees, the proclamations of a tyrant, or in the letters of a constitution?
There is a misunderstanding between us on this point. If that's your definition of totalitarianism, then it seems to me that every system of govenrment is totalitarian except for anarchy, which is not a system of govenrment at all.

So I, or we, need to reach a better mutual understanding of totalitarianism.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 05:02:56 2017 No.10047754 >>10046571 Lol I've been spamming Weil for a few months now. She's fantastic.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 05:22:54 2017 No.10047802 >>10042524 Dick's VALIS trilogy and Eco's medieval epics won't cure you, but they will give you different perspectives while satisfying your hunger.

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 05:38:26 2017 No.10047833

>>10047728

>So I, or we, need to reach a better mutual understanding of totalitarianism.

I took the definition off of Merriam Webster. I think the key lies in "totally subject" and "absolute". There's no alternative to the philosopher kings in Plato's republic. That's the absolutism. And the kings decide on very central aspects of the citizens lives, most prominently work and reproduction - that's at least part of the "totally subject". While I'll agree that there can be a spectrum of authoritarianism in this regard, I think you'll agree that these particular aspects of Plato's republic take it further than most other political systems. Far enough to warrant an accusation of totalitarianism, at least in my view.

This isn't even touching upon the state censorship of art/culture and the noble lie, two other aspects that make me very reluctant to call the republic anything other than totalitarian. But these four aspects, (work, reproduction, culture, noble lie) are just the tip of the iceberg which are explicitly dealt with in the republic.

I agree that reason precedes power in Plato, and was a bit too shitposty in my initial greentext. Still, I think that the original argument holds. Plato believes in radical value absolutism - something is right, something is wrong. Wouldn't this apply to all aspects of human life then? There's is a class that has insight into what is right and wrong, and of course, they make sure to enforce that every aspect of lived life is right. Hence the totally subject to authority - in the ideal state, there is no alternative life to the correct one. The fact that the ruling class is composed on educational merit doesn't really detract from the charge of totalitarianism, in fact, I'd be inclined to think it strengthens it. The citizens have no alternative than to be ruled by those with natural aptitude. This natural aptitude is ability to gain insight into the value absolutism. Thus, the rulers are all gonna be alike, hence, no alternative ruler.

I do enjoy being able to have a proper conversation on /lit/ every once in a while, so thank you. If I were to step back from being polemical, I think that the real issue here, for me at least, is that if you're not a value relativist, and believe that some values are just true, you're going to be politically in a dilemma of being either an idiocratist, where you believe that people have a right to be wrong and express that politically, or a totalitarian, where you believe that the right values should be enforced.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 07:37:04 2017 No.10048043 >>10047666 >tries to compare himself to Jesus >is smitten by the lord Hallelujah.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 08:03:16 2017 No.10048113 >>10042524 Sounds like you are a brainlet with patrician interests. Salvation can only be obtained through Christ, attend Tridentine mass and get baptized. Reject all Novus Ordo Vatican II shenanigans.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 08:18:26 2017 No.10048154 File: 1.99 MB, 250x158, shawn-michaels.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10042524 >lets the Holy Spirit in >wants it to stop I got bad news for you buddy...

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 08:32:30 2017 No.10048184 >>10047666 Get behind me Satan

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 09:40:03 2017 No.10048334 >>10043382 no, that's definitely the pleb's reading. doesn't mean it's wrong, though.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 11:46:42 2017 No.10048692 >>10047577 Sauce on this memorable poem?

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 11:50:58 2017 No.10048718 >>10042431 If a person doesn't bounce back from hardship they deserve whatever happened to them obviously.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 11:58:02 2017 No.10048748 File: 171 KB, 800x800, 1464644157304.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] daily reminder /lit/ is a christian board and no amount of nihilist postmodernists will change that

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 12:38:04 2017 No.10048887
File: 38 KB, 357x500, forever.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

You guys are busy trying to be so edgy that you're missing the point, which is, basically God saying: "Don't try to be edgy with me. I'm God and you are beneath me."

You want a paraphrasing of the entire book? Ok, here goes:

>You think you know right. You think you know wrong. Philosophy, art, culture, the pinnacle of human achievement will never be able to fathom how God measures these things, much less attain a measurement of any validity. So how can you determine what is good? If you could, how could you use your measure against God. God is the measurement of what is good. If not, there is no God. So either there is God, and you should clap your hand over your mouth lest question him, or there is no God and you're life is a tragic waste of consciousness, eventually spiraling into a cold lifeless void of lonely nothingness.

God's telling you not to bother pulling on that thread. It's a sign that you can rest easy. You're only human. Accept that, and your limitations. Breath. Everything is going to be ok.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 12:50:38 2017 No.10048921 >>10048887 >you can rest easy. You're only human. Accept that, and your limitations. Breath. Everything is going to be ok This doesn't really fit with "Hello I'm God and I may smite your house any second for reasons you can't comprehend haha"

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 12:50:45 2017 No.10048922 >>10048887 See: >>10047683

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 12:59:27 2017 No.10048939

>>10048922
>>10048921

Yeah, God would be a psychopath if he were human. In fact, many psychopaths attribute divine importance to themselves. The thing is, God isn't human. He's God. You're trying to fit Him into the box of what you think He should or shouldn't do. The entire point of Job is to explain that is a fool's errand. Are you going to try to diagnose God as evil by human standards? That's like my dog thinking I'm evil when I have to put him down. If I were a dog, sure, but I'm not. I'm a human. I'm above him, morally, psychologically, etc. I'm beyond him. God is like that, only infinitely. The book of Job is God telling you to take your standards and shove them up your ass. If I were God, I'd say the exact same thing. So would you. I'm not going to explain to my dog why I do what I do. It doesn't mean I don't love my dog, it just means that my dog won't always agree with or understand my decisions. I still require it's obedience. You're extremely lucky that God's love for you is beyond that I have for my dog, which isn't insignificant. Thinking otherwise is either atheism or petulance. If it's the former then why debate the morality of God and instead just say it's all made up. If it's the latter, again, who the fuck are you?

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 13:00:28 2017 No.10048942 >>10048887 /thread

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 13:04:13 2017 No.10048960 File: 93 KB, 467x496, 1475761595212.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] How do y'all like the multiverse explanation? http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/03/15/answer-to-job/

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 13:08:45 2017 No.10048971

>>10048960
>God must operate within my understanding of the universe.
>God must

Nope. God is quite a bit beyond physical requirements. It's more likely that if the universe were perfect, we couldn't choose to be imperfect. If we can't choose to be imperfect, then we couldn't choose to be perfect. If we can't choose God, then we are mindless slaves to perfection. That's not love.

Hence, love necessitates the ability to forsake. The ability to forsake yields imperfection. Imperfection yields pain.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 13:08:49 2017 No.10048972 >>10048939 Such an entity could just as easily be perfectly Evil. See also: >>10047555

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 13:09:10 2017 No.10048974 File: 478 KB, 680x689, Job.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10048960 Childish. http://www.dhspriory.org/thomas/english/SSJob.htm

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 13:14:09 2017 No.10048983

>>10048972
Let's do this mathematically:

God = Good
God != Evil

Then you come along and are like:
If God = Good then God = Evil. If that's the case then Good = Evil. What you are basically arguing is that there is no such thing as good and evil. I would buy that, if there was no God. If there is a God, then God = Good. Whatever God is, is good. Whatever he isn't, is Evil. It's not that there is good, and God adheres Himself to that. It's that there is God, and that what good is is based on what he is. Repeatedly, throughout the Bible, God is the measurement of what is good. To argue the opposite is to argue against the idea of God entirely. You are postulating atheism, by putting the cart before the horse. For your dumb ass: the horse is God and the cart is good.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 13:17:28 2017 No.10048994 >>10048983 The entity that has condemned you to abjection will never stop.

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 13:19:32 2017 No.10048999

>>10048971
You here are also assuming that God can't or won't violate the alleged rules of free will you've outlined; he doesn't just create a square circle universe where free will exists without suffering. That's no different from saying he can't or won't violate the computational theory of identity (I don't know if that's something the author made up, can't find it anywhere).

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 13:25:21 2017 No.10049022 >>10042524 read the Greeks, much more sophisticated metaphysics that will bring you to realize the paucity of the Christian view of life.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 13:29:38 2017 No.10049040 OP these kinds of questions are inherently Jewish. Jews (mis)interpret the Bible, we open our hearts to it.

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 13:31:45 2017 No.10049046

>>10048994
I guess. But then, He's God. That's kind of His perogative. Being God and all. Hence, the book of Job. It's circular logic. If you could force God into a legitimate debate then you could call Him out on that, but you can't, because He's God. Again, hence the book of Job. He doesn't have to play by your rules. You understand that. You can ask any questions you want, or point out any flaw, and the answer is "Yeah but He's God". Why can't you guys get that through your thick heads?

>>10048999
I'm not saying He can't or won't. I'm saying that He didn't, and that he didn't explain why He didn't. Hence, the point of the book of Job. He doesn't have to create the universe by your standards, which is why He pointing out that you weren't there when He created the universe. He doesn't have to explain it to you. He did it how He did it, and He didn't feel the need to answer for it, and neither do I. Does that bother you? You aren't entitled to these answers.

You aren't entitled to any answers.

The abridged version of the book of Job:
You aren't entitled to any answers.

Typical that you guys immediately being questioning everything. God isn't a science experiment for you to prove or disprove, or an entity for you to diagnose. That's vanity. He's God. If He exists, then swallow your pride and accept what He does. If there is no God then don't waste your time. Either way, your questions are pointless. Pointless.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 13:45:09 2017 No.10049089 >>10048043 >Doesn't even know what 666 really means.

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 13:46:43 2017 No.10049093
File: 172 KB, 1440x946, watermirage.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10049046

It's only circular if you choose to ignore the conclusion that you are worshiping Schrodinger's God, in terms of the Good-Evil and the True-Illusory axes rather than the Real-Not Real one which is silly and useless, and if you choose to ignore the conclusion that such thinking and eventual deliverance onto such a God could just as easily maintain or even increase your misery. And if you choose to ignore that there are other ways of thinking and means of deliverance onto other Eschatons, some of which supersede Schrodinger's God.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 13:47:25 2017 No.10049094 >>10048921 well, that's life

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 14:27:25 2017 No.10049241 >>10042510 K E K

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 14:37:48 2017 No.10049277 File: 159 KB, 255x255, 1504967644630.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10044658 MY SIDES

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 14:57:43 2017 No.10049351 >>10043459 >snivelling slave morality Why does every little edgelord who's heard of Nietzsche think he's not among the herd?

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 14:58:23 2017 No.10049354
File: 27 KB, 205x39, 1505700852679.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10046661
But that's completely wrong. The judge isn't necessarily just, not being convicted relies on analysing the charge and its validity, and an unjust society should be questioned

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 14:59:35 2017 No.10049357 >>10046786 >goodness consists in God Prove it

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 15:02:12 2017 No.10049365 >>10047572 Ok go there and get him to explain theodicy and the book of Job to me, thanks

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 15:03:29 2017 No.10049371 >>10046687 not him, but that basically means that if the religion/ideology that shapes the culture is flawed/misunderstood, people will suffer.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 15:04:00 2017 No.10049375 >>10047666 I wonder who could be behind this post...

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 15:05:04 2017 No.10049378 >>10047354 >women and children are property to be gambled and rewarded with They literally were until very recently, dumb atheist.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 15:11:07 2017 No.10049397 File: 584 KB, 1400x2700, demiurge.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Christianity sounds like some real cuck shit.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 15:15:09 2017 No.10049410 >>10048887 >if not, there is no God Doesn't follow even remotely >muh atheism is nihilism Read nietzche and kys >>10048983 >God = Good Citation needed

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 15:23:22 2017 No.10049445 >Damn God, what an asshole, just doing whatever he wants. >Fucking Christian slave morality, keeping me from doing whatever I want. I would be a god if I wasn't held back like this! Wow, atheists is just edgy pseudo-Christians.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 15:27:55 2017 No.10049464 >>10042524 The Brothers Karamazov, go go read it!

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 15:34:55 2017 No.10049503 >>10044658 Underrated Ay weon te pasaste

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 16:36:25 2017 No.10049764 >>10049357 What is Goodness is perfect. What is perfect has no lack. What has no lack is non-contigent. What is non-contingent is God.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 16:56:22 2017 No.10049849 >>10049764 Get out with this sophistry.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 17:07:16 2017 No.10049901 >>10043465 Shut the fuck up, Schopenhauer. Go find a hooker.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 17:51:06 2017 No.10050096 >>10048748 Hey I've seen porn of your image lmao. Also aren't woman considered subhuman in Christianity?

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 17:56:43 2017 No.10050117 >>10043465 He's right y'know

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 20:43:55 2017 No.10050752

>>10050096
>Also aren't woman considered subhuman in Christianity?
No? You'd have to have absolutely no knowledge about Christianity or the bible to make such a ridiculous claim. One of the main tenets of Christianity is that all are made equal in Christ, and I struggle to think of another holy book that depicts women in such a positive light as the bible does, with people like ruth, esther, Rahab, martha and mary and of course the virgin Mary, who's obedience to God is what allows salvation history to come to it's conclusion in Christ. And that's just off the top of my head.
I suppose there may be another holy book which gives women such an important role, but I can't think of one.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 20:51:47 2017 No.10050771 >>10050096 wtf

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 21:09:10 2017 No.10050822 >>10046692 you are both wrong and sound like you were vaccinated a lot as a child

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 21:10:33 2017 No.10050830 File: 664 KB, 2870x1111, chaos.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Yahweh is a probably a Chaos god.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 21:22:51 2017 No.10050876 >>10050096 Catholics literally worship a woman

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 22:22:18 2017 No.10051075 >>10050830 Not over 11 years old.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 20 22:23:27 2017 No.10051082 >>10042524 Ouspensky In Search of the Miraculous.

Anonymous Wed Sep 20 22:45:49 2017 No.10051132
File: 25 KB, 259x239, mary.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10050096
The only sexist thing in Christianity is that in a marriage the woman is submissive to the man, but only marginally, and only a misogynistic man would cause this distinction to have any negative consequences.

The fact that Christianity considers it a woman's duty to be a mother is construed as sexist by some, but it's ridiculous. Parenthood for either sex is clearly the highest ideal.

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/lit/ - Literature