/lit/ - Literature

>>9903011
Eh put that statues in Civil War museums

There hasn't been a SINGLE threat of burning ANY book.

What books do you believe are threatened?

>>9903021

Probably has something to do with the pic related, innit?

>>9903015
How about no
>>9903021
It will happen, just wait and see.
>Muh misogynistic philosphers r offensiveeeeeeeee

>>9903027

Statues aren't books

>>9903028

Fuck, I thought the slopes didn't open up until winter?

you dont need book burnings when people dont have any idea of what to read besides pop culture

>>9903035
Well, it's slippery anyway.
>Muh raycis statues

>>9903011
See this I don't get. I understand the issue of some black population being uncomfortable attending schools named after confederate leaders. But statues should remain in place to remind everyone of the history of the land.


Or in another case, why not auction the statues?

>>9903011
unironically, I think book burning is super cool.

pic related, my favorite painting about book burning

I've got a few pretty deeply rooted connections to their movement through a multitude of dummy social media accounts. With some work and persistence I could probably get at least one book burning to happen. Any recs for the target author/book? Something that they could easily be convinced is dangerous but seems completely harmless to the rest of the world

>>9903055
second favorite painting of book burning. Also, the scholars are being tossed into a mass grave and buried alive.

>>9903057
Any classic

>>9903021
considering most booksellers are probably liberal, is it really that hard to imagine them someohow blocking disagreeable literature.. i mean let's face it, there is a lot of classic literature that is no longer being taught or in print anymore all because "muh racist" People like Frank Norris used to have an esteemed place in the american cannon now you never here about him at all

First they came for the history books, then the biology books, the philosophy books, all that was laid down they disagreed with.

There ought to be only one theory allowed and dissent was to be snuffed out.

It happened that... the victors not just wrote the history books.

t. Anon

>>9903069

Not Book Burning

>>9903057
To Kill a Mockingbird

>>9903070
>It happened that... the victors not just wrote the history books.

>burning of books
>implying that the masses still read

Books are not what they used to be. If anything, what is far more likely, is the forcing of shutting down certain websites

All could be cleared if Trump takes the stick off his ass. We're reaching moments where the admin would say that the sky isn't blue just because CNN says that the sky is fucking blue. This spiteful shit cannot work.

Tribalism crap is devouring the current political sphere.

>>9903054
It's two fold. The primary reason behind this is summed up by the phrase "fuck drumpf and fuck white". The statue removal, strictly speaking, has nothing to do with the Confederacy, or even slavery. Rather, Slavery is a pretext of the removal of a statue to history involving Whites. We see other examples of this in Sweden, with museums destroying bodies and artifacts for this same purpose: the marginalization, oppression, and elimination of Europeans.

In short, they DON'T want people to remember history. And why would they? The CCP and Indian Marxist parties have demonstrated very well just how powerful the manipulation of history is when it comes to politics.

Coincidentally, it also helps to erase that awkward bit of history that is the Democrat Party's historical (and present) position on slavery and just what their ideal society would look like.

>americans

>>9903072
well considdring every book is online now, a literal burning wouldnt accomplish what book burnings of old times set out to do

>>9903127
Pretty much this. The media is playing a dangerous game of chicken. If the Left tries to start mass censorship all Trump has to do is enforce existing anti-trust laws in which case the Left's only remaining stronghold goes under. Imagine if, say, CNN just went offline as their entire board was dragged off in hand cuffs for running an oligopoly.

It's gonna be a fun seven more years.

>>9903135
>removing confederate statues from the streets = fuck whites

You've been on /pol/ too long.

>>9903021
Mein Kampf

>>9903069
>People like Frank Norris used to have an esteemed place in the american cannon now you never here about him at all
I'd appreciate some substantiation for the idea that Norris was ever so esteemed as you think him to be. It's best to compare him to a modern "best-seller" writer who writes novels of contemporary interest vs. the "great novelists" who write things that still speak generations later. It's not some intentional conspiracy that he's ignored now, he just was never really "great" and his novels became less and less relevant after the Progressive Era ended. I highly doubt anyone now or then put him among the likes of Melville, Twain, and Hawthorne.
>cannon
>never here about him
I mean, if anyone is going to bear the standard of American education, you seem like the guy. Not that these errors alone invalidate your argument, but they don't make it look great either.

>>9903069
The vast majority of booksellers still carry stuff like Hitler and de Sade despite them being outrageously offensive to big swaths of the population. If any books are going to be banned over this neo-nazi issue it would seem like "Mein Kampf" is a prime candidate. I seriously doubt that they would push to ban Lauren Southern etc. before they tried to ban the literal creator of nazism. Sure, there may be some "public pressure" to ban some books but I think most people by now recognize that radicalization happens online, not in bookstores. Kids are way more likely to get pulled into weird shit through /pol/ or other places than by wandering in a bookstore and reading Evola. Nowadays you just get anything you want online and banning the physical copies is barely going to put a dent in the dissemination of ideas.

>implying illiterates know which books to burn
you can't work out the sticky and you're probably as smart as a fed, so i think we're good, brah

>>9903015
Wow, a 'museum' dedicated to white supremacy? I think not.

(see how easy it is this can go on forever they want the statues wiped off the face of the earth)

>>9903158
Removing statues of Whites to erase Whites from history is indeed "fuck Whites". Take your head out of the sand and actually look what the alt-left is saying, m8o.

>>9903069
This is far more likely than literal book burnings imo (though I wouldn't be totally surprised at a few of those either). I think we can expect to see more attempts to cast 'problematic' classics out of the canon.

>>9903172
Lol You mean a .. Civil War Museum? Those confederate statues fit there.

But to leave them on the streets as some sort of symbolic patriotic crap that people admire? Nah, that's just calling for trouble.

>>9903178
Nah, they're removing statues that should not have been statues in the first place. Your argument is like "Germans should leave Hitler's statue..if they take it down, it's obvious they hate whites!" lolwut?

>>9903157
>all Trump has to do is enforce existing anti-trust laws in which case the Left's only remaining stronghold
You do realize that it was the progressivists that created anti-trust laws, right? And that the left hates big corporations probably more than you do? I don't understand how big corporations are suddenly an avatar of the left now. If big pharmaceutical companies or AT&T got sued you'd probably see liberals dancing in the streets.
>CNN just went offline as their entire board was dragged off in hand cuffs for running an oligopoly
What is your definition of an oligopoly? That there aren't many competitors in the field? There are way more media organizations clamoring for your attention today than ever. It's pretty weird to claim that some news channel has a monopoly on the market.
>seven more years
Let's wait to see how the next three turn out, Nostradamus. We live in pretty unpredictable times, as 2016 itself proved.

the weird thing is how totally rational people have just been reduced to braindead zombie liberal talking points 'nazi''russians', formerly respectable thinkers just parroting utter trash now. WTF is going on?

Was told my school has 500 000 books on campus. Soon it will be 50 000. They're getting rid of the physical books in favour of a mostly digital library.
What books should I try 'forget to return' that will inevitably be burnt.

>>9903158
Not him but whats the point of removing statue of controversial figures? It doesn't erase what they did

>>9903164
>I'd appreciate some substantiation for the idea that Norris was ever so esteemed as you think him to be. It's best to compare him to a modern "best-seller" writer who writes novels of contemporary interest vs. the "great novelists" who write things that still speak generations later. It's not some intentional conspiracy that he's ignored now, he just was never really "great" and his novels became less and less relevant after the Progressive Era ended. I highly doubt anyone now or then put him among the likes of Melville, Twain, and Hawthorne.
thats the expected response from someone that is successfully brainwashed by current american "canon" and i use that term to represent what you are taught and exposed to throughout your education. you compare him to a bestseller? how about actually reading him his works have far more insight into the american experience than other american naturalists that are taught in schools like crane and drieser...point out spelling errors all you like, but you are the one that sounds like an idiot talking about an author youve clearly never read

>>9903196
You mean removing them from the streets? Why the hell would people leave Hitler, Stalin,etc statues on the damn street just because "muh history". Put that shit in a fitting historical musuem.

Statues on the streets should only be for founding fathers and figures that had legitimate positive impact on the country.

>>9903011
Yes, tearing down monuments to the confederacy is clearly the same as burning books, you dumb racist.

>>9903172
He didn't say Confederate museum you dumbass he said Civil War

Haven't there literally been calls to remove "nigger" from old books (Twain's books come to mind, and maybe To Kill a Mockingbird as well)?

As a blackanon, it is somewhat of a negative "shock" to see it in books, but at the same time, I'm aware of its historical usage. I don't say nigga/nigger/etc. in real life, either, if that's at all relevant. It is interesting to see "nigger" appear in random contexts in nonetheless old books: Within a Budding Grove had a random instance of it (now that I think about it, does "nigger" even translate in French?).

>>9903178
These dudes aren't being erased from history, they're being re-evaluated as no longer positive role models.

It would not make sense to have statues of Hitler around Germany just as an educational tool about white history or whatever. You could read about him whenever you want and he doesn't need a statue to be remembered just so he isn't "erased from history." For the most part statues are supposed to represent some positive civic value, which neither Hitler nor a lot of these confederate statues do.

These statues (or plaques or flags of whatever) still make sense as representatives of that period and could/should be featured in some kind of museum or library (just like Nazi memorabilia are). They don't make sense as the public face of a city, which is what they're currently being used as.

>>9903196
>Not him but whats the point of removing statue of controversial figures? It doesn't erase what they did
>>9903196
I think the question your asking is 'what is the purpose of public art?'. Historically, it's been used by governments and churches to reflect ideology.

So iconoclasm, desecration, whatever you want to call it, the destruction of public art objects, is an ideological aggression. It's an attempt to make visible a shift (or desired shift) in politics. This is why ISIS destroys temples, this is why east european countries tear down statues of Lenin, this is why leftists tear down statues of confederates.

Today's public art tends to be either industrial minimalism or pop art, and that is because it reflects the dominant ideology of capitalism. Pic related, probably the most prominent public art sculpture in my city, Kansas City. I look forward to the day when the mob tears it down.

The problem is ultimately the internet is causing a practically magnetic force in society where people are stuck in their own tribes. Whereas once a shared enjoyment of media and literature helped mediate conversation between different ideologies there is increasingly little communication between each sphere.
America is being split into two nations each with their own notion of history and values and this act of tearing down the statue is part of a far larger strategy of liberals trying to destroy the historic narrative and ideals of America. With nothing to offer in its place

>>9903191
No, you're just fucking stupid.

>>9903158
Lurk moar, they're already calling for statues of Washington, Jackson, Jefferson, Teddy Roosevelt, William Travis (lol wut?), and other whites to be removed. The Lincoln memorial was vandalized the other day. There are calls for the Alamo to be renamed because apparently the Texan war of independence is white supremacy, yes they're going after the Alamo. They even vandalized a holocaust memorial and pinned it on "Gnatsees", even though they did it because in their view, Jews are white and thus, racist. They believe whites are inheritely racist, like original sin. It was a slippery slope. It is about getting rid of whites. I knew that when you give in to leftists they want more, clearly they didn't read "If you Give a Mouse a Cookie" as kids. They started with the controversial statues, and now they're moving onto less controversial. They just hate whites, period. Pic related, how they treat their "allies"

>>9903011
anyone interested in organizing a /lit/ approved book burning? We could burn Harry Potter or something.

>>9903223
We should burn Maps of Meaning

>>9903011
Probably at the same time that Obama takes all our guns and the UN puts us all in FEMA camps.

>>9903194
Well anon what books do you think ISIS allowed? Act accordingly.

>>9903213
>Teddy Roosevelt
>Hitler or Stalin
Good lord.

The fact is there isn't a legitimate argument to leave such statues on the street. Primary reason for such statues (riding horses, standing heroically, etc) are symbols that are meant to be ADMIRED by the ones that see them.

All this dumbass "y u taking down history?! u must hate whites!" is just that. Dumbass shit. Put the damn stones in a museum - no one is telling you to erase history.

>>9903215
You take that back motherfucker badminton is the sport of Kings!

>>9903223
>>9903227

milk and honey would make more of a statement

>>9903215
General Robert E Lee was not fucking Hitler. He was an honorable man who did a respectable and humane job leading what he viewed as his homeland and when he lost was gracious and wise enough to surrender and lead what was left of his army to peace.
He deserves a statue as much as anyone

>>9903223
>"this book burning is a celebration of good taste"
That would be a hilarious thing to see on the news. And honestly, burning Harry Potter would trigger more people than most books.

>>9903246
Meant for>>9903213

>>9903197
You didn't answer my question and instead just acted like you were too smart to answer it. Come on, help a pleb like me out. Just point me to some source putting him on the same level (of skill, not just having a similar style) as Crane and Dreiser or whoever else "supplanted " him in the canon. I am even willing to reconsider my opinion of Norris if you can just substantiate your claim that he had "an esteemed place in the American canon." No joke, I have an open mind and I am interested in your response.

I don't hate the guy and I never even said he was a bad author. But I don't think it's fair to act like he was shoved out of the canon when, to my knowledge, he was just never in it. There are plenty of decent authors who it's nonetheless strange to compare to the true greats.

>>9903246
not to mention lauded as the most capable man by union and confederate generals alike... i read Ulysses S Grants memoirs he had nothing but good things to say about Lee

>>9903246
I actually think Lee is one of the few confederate who is still worthy of statuification, for some of the reasons you list. I should have used the qualifier of "most" in my original post. Thanks.

>>9903203
Mind you there are countless statues of Christopher Columbus across the country and no one really pays no mind to those, despite what he did to the Natives. I understand that slavery and the race issue is the bigger picture being played here.

>>9903233
>Teddy Roosevelt
I was talking about confederates, which I admit I may not have fully clarified in my original post.

>>9903227
>>9903237
See, I don't particularly care what we burn. I just think book burning is neat.

>>9903270
They don't care about Colombus because even Right Wingers think he was a greedy guinea monster. This isn't about morality its about imposing their idea of society on others. Ideological domination

>>9903279
Poseur.

>>9903256
look asshole, im not gonna write out a fucking essay comparing and contrasting mcteague with american tragedy. i dont know how to show one is better than the other in a 4chan post, id just recommend you read them... And i dont think im smart, you were the one that discounted norris, admittedly my favorite author, as the equivalent of a modern day bestseller

all i'd recommend is to read mcteague. i think you;d like him.

it's pretty naive to think that the canon hasnt been politicized over the last hundred, and that certain works arent included and excluded for reasons other than merit alone

>>9903204
The confederacy fought against what was perceived as an ever expanding and massively centralized government during an era where State's rights reigned supreme. So yes, you can see why Southerners would be upset that the memory of their ancestors would be pissed on and desecrated by the removal of statues. It's far beyond "racism" as you put it.

>>9903223
>/lit/ organizes book burning
>burns some obscure book nobody ever heard of
>books sales go through the roof as people rush to buy and then burn it
>suddenly every random author is self-publishing extremist manifestos so they too can get burnt
And so literature was saved.

>>9903294
>sad frog
but it's true.

>>9903307
Burn your diary faggot

>>9903256
heres something.. i know its not exactly what you meant https://archive.org/stream/menorahvolume00socigoog#page/n40/mode/2up

>>9903011
that looked like shit anyway lol

Most of these statues were erected in the 60s; many as recently as twenty years ago. They are not ancient artifacts. Their raising was an ideological assault. This is the fact of the matter. If you believe they should remain, it's because you agree with the ideology this represent. This crowing about "protecting history" is either uninformed or purposefully crypto.

>>9903332
*they represent

>>9903332
Take your head out of your ass.
What we want is consideration for the community of people to whom these statues represent a sense of pride and meaning in their history. That even in the darkest times there were people of virtue on both sides that we can look up to.
Whether they should or shouldn't have been put up in the first place doesn't change the fact they're here and if they are ever removed it should be after the consent and understanding of both communities not promoting mob justice like fucking chimpanzees.

>>9903332
WTF is this trash? Did Colbert send out a newsletter?

>>9903285
Colombus had some pretty damn strong ideology

>>9903216
>having slaves and being a massive faggot is part of american ideals
disgusting

>>9903332
Thank you! Most of the poor white bastards that fought for the confederate states fought in reality for the interests of rich slave owners. They neither owned slaves nor did they benefit from that institution.

>>9903377
They didn't have their daughters raped by niggers either

>>9903300
I don't deny that the canon has been politicized in some ways, I just don't think Norris started as high as you think he did. Like I said in the last post, I don't think he was necessarily crap in any way, just like modern bestsellers aren't necessarily crap, just not enduring works. May we part in peace, friend. I'm sorry if I was combative earlier.

>>9903319
Thank you for the link. That's a pretty interesting article, mostly the first few pages in regards to Norris's contemporary perception. Interestingly, Lebowich commends Norris for not "degenerating into Naturalism", which is the movement Norris is most associated with (as far as I know).

>>9903212
negre and coco and couple other terms (negre is like nigger, coco often used as "mon coco"/my nigga) in french.
they say nigger in dutch accounts which is a lot more slave trading than the US usually learns about but really interesting (east and west indies companies).

i think you can get an expunged twain. but it really isn't a good set of books to take the word out of.

some instances of it, such as graham greene or evelyn waugh using it, it's just reflective of the time and changing it to whatever the current term is on the PC treadmill wouldn't achieve much because you're already reading a pretty twisted and cynical book.

some things, though, taking that reflection of the age out allows the book to keep the same demographic in the current age. they've changed up enid blyton for children because repeatedly letting kids know black characters are called wogs with no alternative commentary probably isn't standard cultural navigation in most places that read enid blyton any more.
twain on the other hand loses a lot about historical commentary if you don't point out that it used be common to call all the black characters nigger at some point, and he's probably a better way of preserving that point than blyton who doesn't really have much sympathy for the wog characters.

they changed agatha christie's ten little niggers to ten little indians (to be less offensive) and now you'll mostly find it under the title "and then there were none". that makes sense because if you reincarnated agatha christie's original readers now, they'd all drop her for that title and probably stage her second disappearance for her. they know what the original title(s) were and what changed, but they do want the option of the one you can read in public.

>>9903386
You know it's incredible how well a group of rich elite sociopaths can manipulate poor working class whites into supporting policies so utterly at odds with their own class interests, and all by playing to their delusions that blacks, Mexicans, Jews, or some other despised group is out to get them. You know rape their daughters and all that....

>>9903413
Its especially easy when its true. What you think blacks raping white girls wasnt an issue after the slaves were freed?

>>9903413
Despite what your friends might have told you, anon, Appalachia really isn't that incredible.

>>9903357
I'm not the guy you're responding to but I had a few questions.

>these statues represent a sense of pride and meaning in their history
Can you be more specific here? What do you regard the points of pride to be, and do you think protesters agree with you? Is history less "meaning"ful if it's put in a museum rather than a public, street, say?

I'm legitimately not trying to trap you or anything, I am genuinely curious as to your answers.

>it should be after the consent and understanding of both communities
Fair enough. Do you think that the community would indeed consent to the maintenance of the statues? How would you prefer that consent to be expressed? A referendum, a law passed by a legislative body, or some other option?

>>9903357
Comfortable lies are cowardly. Most importantly they're lies. There is a wealth of inspiring history a southerner can learn from and take pride in, from the massive labor movements that built the unions to struggles that they will fight today.

>>9903359
>B-BTFO

>>9903377
That's exactly why the mythology was propagated. Rapacious expropriators had once again forced the miserably impoverished to fight for capital and against the diminishing profits of a ruling class that is still in power in the South.

Rather than risk backlash against this terrible crime they constructed castles in the air and brainwashed the children of the defeated people from birth for generations.

>>9903429
I'm not him, but as far as I know a lot of the South kind of regard them as their founding fathers? If my country tried to take down a statue of only one side of our civil war, there'd be another fucking civil war.

>>9903429
>Is history less "meaning"ful if it's put in a museum rather than a public, street, say?
Of fucking course it is, its lifeless, Museums are where history goes to die, equivalent of shoving your shit into the attic.
The pride comes from knowing that even if the side your community is identified with is now regarded as being in the wrong that they still had men of great talent and valor despite their choice of cause. That in the future you may have something to offer in turn as they had something to offer. That they were not simply a blight on this planet with no hope of redemption.

I don't care about the technicalities of how the statues should be dealt with, at the very least by legislators who are directly accountable for their decisions.

>>9903057
The Civil War: A Narrative

Say it's only a narrative by a problematic white southerner male's (Foote) perspective.

>>9903445
The men were a blight on the planet. Southerners are not. I love the real culture of the south, texas fiddleplaying and western swing and banjo music and the Allman Brothers and the Matewan strikers, not the false one conjured up by the politicians to run cover for the ideology they serve.

>>9903433
Oh great here's /leftypol/ pasting his prescribed opinions

>>9903466
Hurrrr hurrr durr hir
Fuck off loser

>>9903468
>>9903473
Really made me think lads.

>>9903482
>lads

lol what do you think you are, a Dickens character?

>>9903216
>internet makes opposing ideologies more isolated
>America is becoming two nations because of this
>our interpretation of history is just as real as your fake one

what the fuck are you saying nigger? you cant just post a cool roman picture and expect everything to jive.

>>9903270
People complain about them once year, and then they quickly forget about it. I see three statues of Columbus on a daily basis.

>>9903359
In all honesty, I've seen people making the same point in the same manner in multiple threads. Wouldn't be surprised if someone was trying to push the progressive talking points onto the site.
>>9903466
Let me dictate to people what their culture is. Did I tell you I'm a fan!.
>>9903011
No matter how overbearing the left is at the moment, I really can't see them burning books. If anything I imagine some far right group would start burning books by James Baldwin, Audre Lorde, Herbert Marcuse, and Michel Foucault before the goes as far as to burn any.

>>9903466
>The men were a blight on the planet
not the guy you're talking to, but jfc who died and made you god?
>real culture of the south
>not the false one conjured up by the politicians
...wouldn't that make you more likely to defend the confederates? i mean, the north took west virginia willingly. that's gotta raise some doubts about the lincoln statues' futures and his blight diagnosis.

>>9903489
>real interpretation of history

Nice meme

>>9903011
How do I know liberals weren't behind this post, wanting me to focus my attention on book burning just so they could steal more statues, pass legislation to own a confederate flag, or buy up all available assault ammunition?

>>9903489
Yes you can. Posting an image of classical statues, statesmen, or philosophers signals to the to the /lit/ poster that you identify with western culture and that any unstated reasoning or unclear logic in a post are actually reasonable.

>>9903498
There is no objective reality? Now I see how your camp has gone so backwards so quickly. Keep meming faggot.

>>9903512
bitch ass nigga

>>9903421
adequate retribution for the centuries of slavemasters raping black girls, teebeehache

You guys overestimate the power of lefty ideology. They're still opposition in the grand scheme of things. Trump, Putin, Thatcher, Macron, Merkel are there to prove it, and, outside of certain corners of the internet frequented almost exclusively by very young people, the ruling ideology is still conservative, traditional social and gender norms.

>>9903531
>he believes the slave rape meme

I like how Black historians just assume none of the negresses wanted it

>>9903533
>Thatcher
m8, maggie's dead a long while now. did you miss the parties?

>>9903332
Most of them were erected in the 1920s... You know, when there were still quite a few Confederate veterans alive and organizations like the Daughters of the Confederacy had huge membership.

>>9903542
>m8

What did he mean by this?

>>9903546
mucca

>>9903536
I love how you just assume the white women didn't want it. AYOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BBC! BBC! Say it with me now!

>>9903531
Crap answer, rape is not justified for the sake of revenge (nor in the case that caused the desire for revenge). I know you're just baiting but a bunch of /pol/lsters are probably going to hop on you and say that rape is the true face of leftism, blah blah blah.

>>9903172
The Civil War was not about white supremacy. If you think that, you don't know squat about American history. White supremacy was not in question by either the South or the North in any majority.

In fact, slavery was a relatively small issue in the Civil War, and its importance had less to do with blacks v. whites and more to do with the preservation of the Southern way of life - which had been built by slave labor, and was then dependent upon it. Emancipation was merely a political tool - a way to castrate the Southern economy while bolstering the Northern Army.

There's also much more to a man like General Robert E. Lee, or Sam Houston, or any other famous racist of those times, than their race views. They are multi-faceted and accomplished figures of American history; because of that fact, a black man like myself can find it corrosive that we should remove the monuments of their memory.

It is the action of a shallow, short-sighted government who would wish to judge history by modern political standards, and manipulate or expunge our own connections to the past - something no man has ever had any control over.

is not rape if you enjoy it, desu
t. rape victim

>>9903055
that floating book is trying to convince the stoner guy to save him and the stoner priest is just staring at him like, i'm sure you're a nice book but i'm so high right now

this is why we don't have magic. remember kids, never weed.

>>9903567
>t. rape victim
how do you know the other guy didn't enjoy it?

>>9903533
The most important places and powerful institutions are fully drenched it, but it has shown just how much of it can easily be incorporated into neoliberal systems. The election of Macron and the immediate reaction shows that the threat of the far right can bring anyone left-of-center to gleefully vote for an open neoliberal.

That being said, the disproportionate amounts of power and influence these places have give them the ability to enact their ideology on the entirety of our civilization. Their cultural dominance has even proved to be more important than the institutional dominance of the right in the US.

>>9903332
If this is true, then you are right. I was uninformed, and the statues should go.

>>9903221
You're an absurd caricature

right wing americans burn the quran all the time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dove_World_Outreach_Center_Quran-burning_controversy

one of many many examples

>>9903608
It's not true. Most of the statues were erected from the 1890s through the early 1930s. This was around the time when many Confederates who died in the war were actually being moved to get proper burials in nice Confederate cemeteries instead of shallow graves in fields.

>>9903445
>Museums are where history goes to die, equivalent of shoving your shit into the attic.
I don't really agree with you here. That's explicitly the point of museums: to keep history alive. If you don't visit museums often (and I don't know whether you do) it's easy to think they're just tombs but in my personal experience I've learned a lot from various museums.

>That they were not simply a blight on this planet with no hope of redemption.
Sure, but "not a blight on the planet" is not a strong enough justification for public enshrinement. I think it's easy to take this over-arching argument to extemes: either they were good, and should be enshrined, or bad and should not be enshrined. For me, it's an issue not of just being "bad" or "good" but of being "good enough": standing out from their peers. The vast majority of historical figures are not morally pure one way or the other, but just doing your job well doesn't put you into "public enshrinement" territory.

"He did his duty" is true of the Nazis, too, but I don't think it's a good idea to put up statues of Hitler in celebration of "his devotion to the cause". I mean yeah, Hitler was devoted (by itself actually a commendable thing), but the cause to which he was devoted can't just be ignored. Same thing with the confederates. Some can indeed be recognized as dependable, loyal, etc. but it's also not great that most of them couldn't realize they were fighting for something that was fundamentally unjust. In my mind it is better to erect statues of people who can embody BOTH the "technical skills" you mention (loyalty, valor) and some moral perspicacity as well. Lee, to use an example, fought for the confederates and showed not only honor but a knowledge of the fact that "yeah, slavery is not cool"--that's what makes him outstanding among his peers and worthy of civic elevation.

>>9903621
yes but americans also boost harry potter sales to burn them for witchcraft. concerning oneself with america in general is a bad idea apart from comedy.

>>9903616
You're blind to what's happening.

>>9903631
I'm an American, but I laughed hard to this.

>>9903637
Haha yeah if you die in a war with 250,000+ others who were predominately drafted against their will your graves should be spat on and you shouldn't get any markers or memorials to remember you.

>>9903464
Doubtful. Foote mostly wrote mostly a military history, which is much harder to assail on ideological grounds than an political history, say.

>>9903072
> they don't have to burn the books, they just remove them

>>9903651
> Didn't get a public monument = grave spat on
wew lad
There is room for a middle ground here, my friend.

>>9903574
true that

>>9903652
>like the people who will burn it will actually read it

Plus I can find videos on YouTube right now of him making very moderate and respectable points, but using language like "the blacks." He's a clear neo-Nazi.

>>9903377
Most warriors in history fought for some sort of wealthy elite. How does that invalidate their plight in itself?

>>9903662
Do you seriously think the people who tore down the statue in Durham (dedicated to soldiers by the way, not to Davis, not to the Confederate government, not even to a figurehead like Lee or Jackson) wouldn't spit on the graves of fallen Confederate soldiers if they were standing right in front of them?

>>9903011
>tfw i was driving by as they were taking him down

RIP

>>9903630
>"He did his duty" is true of the Nazis, too, but I don't think it's a good idea to put up statues of Hitler in celebration of "his devotion to the cause
what? are you saying that lee and jackson are like hitler, or that the soldiers who distinguished themselves in battle are like hitler? oh no wait, you want to say lee was distinguished, but the removal of his statue didn't bother you?

if it were any other war would you say, well don't put up people on horses with their hoofs raised, they might know how these soldiers died in battle from the foot placement? of course you wouldn't, because you're assuming that the statues didn't represent equal value to other soldiers who died in similar circumstances. why these soldiers are worth less than other soldiers for you, that you'd made the assumption they weren't equivalent to such monuments to other service members, strikes me as a source of bias.

none of your argument hangs together. you say the statues coming down isn't bad, but lee would qualify for one for public display, but lee is one of the ones of the statues they took which you say you don't object to. you make assumptions about the rest of the soldiers that look like you think somehow are hitler-like. it's making you look like a mealy mouthed idiot who couldn't spot a clear set of moral principles if rode at horse at him. it also makes you look racist, but since you only care about being racist against some people, i'm sure you're fine with that

>>9903673
It doesn't. I think that anon means to say that it is their plight.

>>9903221
Do you have a picture with, like, more pixels, my dude? The 128x255 is illegible.

>>9903682
racism doesn't exist

>>9903651
so where are the statues and monuments for those who fought for the Nazis?

>>9903695
well nothing exists, but that's a different thread

>>9903188
Idiots like you are just calling for trouble and with perseverance, they end up finding them.

>>9903697
They were banned by the jew-appeasing cowards in West Germany and by the Judeo-Bolsheviks in East Germany.

statues are made to venerate. we shouldn't venerate confederate soldiers whose reason for prestige lies in an ugly part of our past.

>>9903015 has the good idea. move them into a museum where they can be studied as a historical object rather than a venerated object. this satisfies both side of the argument. if you insist on having the statues on public grounds you might be more concerned with the racial aspect than the historical.

>>9903697
japan has a monument to all the people who terrorized china and korea in ww2 and it's frequently visited by the japanese pm, can you imagine if that happened in germany holy shit

>>9903721
Man, you Nazi loving fags get triggered so easily

>>9903727
As an apology to China/Korea? Whats the exact context of the monument?

even if you're some kind of redpilled alt-right dickhead why should the united states have statues of people who tried to overthrow our government? do you think if the revolution failed the british would put a bunch of george washington statues all over the place?

>>9903697
There are a few, actually.

But clearly you understand that the Germans held a vastly different mentality after that war than Southerners did after our war.

After the Civil War it was a serious task to reconcile North and South. It truly was like brother against brother, as often as that trope is used. That reconciliation depended on a compromise: That the South admit that it was probably for the better than the Southern states were not permanently divorced from the Union and that the North admit the South put up a strong, honorable and courageous fight, considering how outnumbered they were and how behind they were on industry and resources. Pound for pound, the Rebel soldier fought harder than the Federal soldier, and that's a fact.

The North (and today liberals on both sides of the Mason Dixon line) are violating this compromise.

>>9903054
the statues aren't just to remember the history of the land. they were built decades after the civil war when the kkk was making a resurgence with the intention of celebrating the confederacy and its heroes. we shouldn't honor traitors who took up arms against our country with statues.

>>9903730
Anon asked a question and he received the answer

>>9903735
well it's shrine for all the people who fought for japan in the war including people who were convicted of war crimes, and the japanese pm will go and "honor it" usually when they want to piss off china during some negotiations or something, how have you not heard of this?

I presume the people saying removal of art for political reasons is actually fine would reach the exact same conclusion once mass book bannings start happening.
I can already picture the Mein Kampf comparisons as Heart of Darkness is banned.
Who says /lit/ isn't full of curious and free spirited minds.

>>9903742
I'm not deft to Asian relations

>>9903682
>what? are you saying that lee and jackson are like hitler
Clearly not, and I think a calm reading of my previous post would confirm that. My point was: "Devotion and loyalty are not 'good enough' virtues for civic escalation." I used the Nazis as an extreme example to show the differences between the concepts of "loyalty", "sacrifice", and "moral rectitude".

>none of your argument hangs together. you say the statues coming down isn't bad, but lee would qualify for one for public display, but lee is one of the ones of the statues they took which you say you don't object to.
This sentence is hard for me to follow because it's formed on a misconception of my post. I never said "I approve of all statues being taken down" or "I approve of every govt. action taken since the protests" and clearly in my last paragraph I said that Lee was a good candidate for civic escalation. I think you are assuming that I'm fully aligned with some preconceived notion of protester but I'm trying to cut my own path and make sense of everything in light of my own principles. You're saying my post is contradictory for the very reason that you're assigning a bunch of statements to it I didn't make and then saying those clash with the ones I did make.

>it's making you look like a mealy mouthed idiot who couldn't spot a clear set of moral principles if rode at horse at him. it also makes you look racist, but since you only care about being racist against some people, i'm sure you're fine with that
This is just you trying to bait me.

I know 4chan is like, the worst place in the world for any serious discussion. But I'd encourage you to step away from the computer for a while, then come back and read what I wrote in my previous comment without assuming any sort of preconceived ideology etc. on my part. I think it will read much differently. Or, better yet, just step away from the computer and then don't come back to 4chan. Heaven knows this place isn't doing you or me any good and I should have stepped away a long time ago. Have a nice night, assuming it's night where you are.

>>9903738
violating my ass, you lose fucking faggot get over it

>>9903743
the irony is the nytimes had a story in favor of the statue removal and in the same issue had an article critical of indonesia for covering a guan-yin statue

>>9903736
They were erected in the spirit of reconciliation, many of them at a time when there were still many Confederate veterans alive, and many sons and daughters of Confederate veterans who had grown up in the scarred post-war South and who had heard their daddies' war stories.

Also, the South never tried to overthrow the government, they seceded, which they thought they had every legal right to do, as nowhere in the Constitution did it ever mention it was forbidden.

>>9903742
So it's a religious symbol? Germany does have monuments to remember all of those who died in the war, German soldiers included. https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser-Wilhelm-Gedächtniskirche

>>9903763
yeah, in the spirit of reconciliation, let's erect statues of dudes who directly or indirectly murdered thousands of american soldiers.

>>9903738
>implying the North didn't fight as bravely and as honorable.

people want to be outraged. 'on all sides, on all sides'. That doesn't mean the outrage is wrong, but it makes me question the demands that come with the outrage. Does anyone actually want resolution? What will we do when we can no longer demonize jews and nazis? At what new categories will we direct our anger?

A statue, a monument, is a challenge to history. 'Here is a man. He may be gone, but this visage remains. I dare you to kill him again'. Every statue and monument is built with this assumption, this defiance, and an unconscious knowledge that nothing can last.

>>9903742
yeah it's impossible to not have heard of this.
fag

I think a monument to all the suffering of any people who were soldiers serving the illusion of nationality is worth honoring. I like the idea of the monument. What's it called by?

>unironically wanting statues of losers taking up public space around your country
Cucks.

>>9903769
Whether you like it or not, both the Confederates and the Federals were Americans.

>>9903772
some day when america is split between mexican catholics and various muslim groups and all the whites are long gone all the holocaust memorials that got put up in the last 50 years will be removed in a similar fashion

>>9903779
b-b-but we take pride in those losers, you liberal cucks! their defea-- i mean, heroic bravery is at the very core of southern culture!

>>9903771
Of course they fought bravely and with honor. But their sacrifices weren't as tragic, since they won.

>>9903784
that makes what they did even worse.

>>9903778
>http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-08/15/c_136528783.htm

the yakushuni shrine, even the nytimes covers it every time some japanese dickhead visits it, what's the point of being bluepilled if you're not going to read the new york times man come on

>http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/26/world/asia/japanese-premier-visits-contentious-war-shrine.html

>>9903809
separate dude, I don't know what you're implying about bluepilled.

>>9903769
Or we could carve them into the side of a mountain.

>>9903799
And what exactly did they do? They had full intentions to secede peacefully. Under their interpretation of the Constitution, once they seceded, Fort Sumter was no longer territory of the United States. Lincoln could have brought the soldiers there home, and no war would have ever been fought.

>>9903011
>take down monuments and restore the names of cities which commemorated Stalin and the soviet regime due to its terrible atrocities and the country's readiness to reject that former ideology
wow sounds great everything's good here
>take down monuments for leaders which supported treasonous secession of half the country thus condemning hundreds of thousands of Americans to die in a slaughter just so the 10% of people who were wealthy landowners could keep human beings as objects of unethical illegal labor
*autistic screeching*

>WE WUZ slowly becoming WE WUZNT

>>9903827
yeah do u ever get this sneaky feeling that the richest wasps are trying to disappear into the background and let the jews and asians take all the heat? what rich white people? white people are just hillbillies and theyre a minority anyways, hey look everybody, a rich jew!

>>9903813
The Crazy Horse monument is the dumbest thing ever
>How can the government carve a big monument into our holy mountains?
>I know what'll show them, let's carve an even bigger monument into it.

>>9903682
>it also makes you look racist, but since you only care about being racist against some people, i'm sure you're fine with that
do you think the confederates were racist? yes or no question

>>9903011
The general populace already doesn't read books, burning them won't change a thing.

>/pol/ is pissed that confederate statues are being taken down
>meanwhile they have no problem whatsoever with the removal of Soviet statues in Eastern Europe since 1991

Really hushes my puppies.

maybe I've been reading too much french philosophy lately, but the people who are outraged by this join the droves of people who seem to be ignorant about what the USA really is, symbolically, in the present day. The US has never been about preserving any kind of history, in fact, we annihilate any trace of it, pave over its gravesite, and build amusement parks on top. That's the American way. We aren't about tirelessly preserving artifacts from the past in defiance of contemporary fashion or trend. We are not European in this way. The US is one of the few truly progressive nations because of this fact alone. just talk to the local man in your town who's been working at the same gas station or meat market for 60 years. ask him how much has changed, how unrecognizable his home has been rendered by the indomitable American spirit of building on the ashes of what was there before. ask him how many landmarks from his childhood have been replaced with shopping malls. nothing will ever stop this unhistory of America. not even 9/11 did.

to an extent I sympathize with the protestors. I have a deep reverence for America's abhorrent, violent past. but only because we are such a great nation. there's no sense in reconciling the two facts. horrible things had to happen to achieve the utopian dream of these United States. however it's not in America's interest to preserve that which it has deemed unfashionable for its image this season. loud-mouthed, underdog outsider Trump was more fashionable than hawkish political dynast Hillary, that's why he won. but honoring the history of the lives lost to defend a state's right to allow slaveowners during the most trying times of our nation? not so much. we elected a niggar, racism is over, time to bulldoze any trace of that conflict and replace it with gender diversity sleep-away camps. this is America. God bless it.

>>9903221
They treat their allies like ants?

People like Lee, Grant, Joshua Chamberlaine, Nathan Forrest, etc. should be remembered as national legends and part of the mythos of our country, not a north/south divide.

>>9903857
All of America's "culture" is simulation

>>9903631
Liberty, free speech and guns.
America is actually superior.
t. Yuropoor.

>>9903931
damn right it is. a near perfect one at that. that's the whole point!

>>9903922
>Nathan Forrest
Whoa, hold your horses. America has a hard enough time accepting Lee and Stonewall. An early member of the KKK and possible Grand Wizard isn't going to fly.

>>9903057
Heart of Darkness, Infinite Jest, Middlemarch

>>9903951
It's a shame because he was one of the most interesting figures of the war. I wonder if shitlibs heads would explode if they realized that white supremacism was the defacto position of everybody in the Western world prior to WW1. Will they want to tear down WEB Dubois statues because he thought that 90% of blacks were dead weight?

>>9904009
>Will they want to tear down WEB Dubois statues because he thought that 90% of blacks were dead weight?

but democrats think 90% of white people are deadweight aka deplorables so why would they be opposed to that?

>>9904009
Shelby Foote uses the term genius for only two men involved in the war. Lincoln and Forrest.

>>9904018
Even the Union generals recognized his genius.
>>9904015
Blacks are just a protected class to shitlibs. Booker T Washington advocated for segregation and you won't hear anyone talking about pulling down his statue. Like someone else said earlier in the thread, these statue removals are just ISIS/Arab Spring/Color revolution tactics. It's not going to end well.

>>9904043
personally i think southern states are doing it to try to get northerners to go to the south and revive their shitty economies, the south is the least developed area in the united states, but seeing a bunch of nuklan jackasses marching around with torches sure as hell isn't going to get any yankees to move to your backwater

>>9903726
so you're never having a statue of another american til you clear the fuck out of those third world countries you're raping? good.

>>9904009
Dubois has a statue? Huh

>>9904065
Theres one at Fisk University

Thing really are going to shit lol

>>9904009
>WEB Dubois statues because he thought that 90% of blacks were dead weight?

It's amazing how nazis just lie with impunity. Don't worry, you'll get yours.

>>9904048
You would have a point if this was 35 years ago. The South is doing pretty well, economy wise. It's much more attractive to businesses than it was a few decades ago. And all the Yankees have been moving en masse to places like VA, NC, SC, and GA for awhile now. Seriously, northerners must make up 50% of the people living in NC's Research Triangle.

>>9903748
>Clearly not, and I think a calm reading of my previous post would confirm that. My point was: "Devotion and loyalty are not 'good enough' virtues for civic escalation." I used the Nazis as an extreme example to show the differences between the concepts of "loyalty", "sacrifice", and "moral rectitude".
Your assumption that they didn't distinguish themselves in the same fashion as every other soldier's statue over the world again strikes me as out of nowhere. I don't believe you have any reason to assume they deserve those less, especially since many, unlike Lee, got statues which indicate they died in battle or from wounds received in battle. Your assumption that fallen soldier statues of that kind were not deserved in their cases, but is in Lee's, shows another bias for authority's veneration over the non-political soldier you claimed should be venerated above politicians.

It's not that my reading isn't calm, it's that you assumed a lot of men who died in battle are a special case who deserve no memory because they are part of a group you have unfounded biases about. Your morals are that fucked you need to obliterate your enemies and assume they do not deserve the honours they came by as any other group of soldiers would.

If you were against all war memorials, then I would buy it's not because you're biased and have a consistent moral system. But you're not, which is why you assume the soldiers must have been wrongly honoured. I am being very seriously when I say that's morally weak. You would shit on the dead because a special interest group told you another special interest group deserves no memorial. I bet you'd call for prosecution if someone removed one of their grave markers or defaced honours they earned from paramilitary activities. I don't think that makes you moral, I think it makes you a lying panderer who insults the dead and presumes the guilt of the victim. If you were doing this defense for Nazis because Nazis took down a Holocaust memorial, I would consider you the same form of scum.

>>9904048
nailed it. people are trying to politicize in a country where politics is a farce. anons like this
>>9904043
are grossly mistaken. this is about the almighty dollar. the fired factory cletuses and niggars sucking on state tit aren't going to bring the south money like the numale tech sector can. how many times must you be reminded? follow the fucking money. buying power indivisible under God.

>>9904093
Absolutely right. Nashville is virtually it's own Yankee city state due to the influx of businesses and development.

>>9904065
Oh, so it's not anywhere important to all people like a city centre? Shame, more statues of intellectuals should go up

>destroying sculptures of a long conquered nation/culture
so brave, so revolutionary

>>9904091
He explicitly says it brah, I'm not misrepresenting the truth at all. But sure, LARP as Captain America all you want.

>>9904143
>defending cheap statues put up after the war is lost
so counterculture, so rebellious

>>9904105
What are you even trying to say? Do you think the protesters are crisis actors or something? I think youve got it confused, I'm talking about an entirely different subject.

Destroying physical history is literally mid-east terrorist tier. Regardless of one's stance on the Confederacy, destroying these statues and monuments is a terrible idea.

>>9904167
Something a racist white male would say.

>>9904091
>>9904153
And here you go, try checking the facts before you embarrass yourself next time Mr. "Antifa".

>>9903015

This is honestly the best thing you could do. The statues are better served in a museum about the confederates role in the civil war. There at least they can be explained what they meant and stood for. They are a curious piece of history now and should be served as reminders of what happened in the past.

>>9904161
Why would they erect them during the war, dummo? I never said anything about defending the statues either, I couldn't be more foreign to America's political games. I just found it so strange watching all these young protestors wailing "we ARE the revolution" while destroying monuments to an army and a people who have already long since been subjugated and pacified. "we are the status quo histrionically reasserting itself" would be more appropriate.

It's a culture war thing that has nothing much to do with the South or the Confederacy, I think. Trump is a New Yorker. The alt-right nutzees seem more Middle American and North cosmopolitan to me than Southern. Younger Americans are just not very discerning in their symbolism. They have an anime mindset, and fewer categories with which to understand the world they live in. Evangelion-brains.

>>9904167
Nothing wrong with the winners tearing down the monuments of the loser.

>>9903533
>He doesn't realize that political power and the power to lead (or mislead) the public is in the hands of the colleges/school systems and journalists
>He doesn't realize that both of these establishments are nearly entirely Left

>>9903944
How do we escape? CRTL+ALT+DEL

wait til they find out it was northern unionist democrats who removed their rights to vote and introduced one drop rule segregation kek

>>9903736
>who tried to overthrow our government?
u wot m8

book burning was an attempt to stop the flow of information. if the book is gone, no one can read it.

the 21st century equivalent happened recently with the actions taken against the daily stormer. those assholes had it coming, but it's tough not to see the parallels. if the website is gone, no one can read it. also note that during the korean crisis people were calling for twitter to ban trump's account.

i think the new morality is that it's ok to control populations, people, ideas, and reality as long as it is conducive to your narrative. not that every ideology doesn't suffer from cognitive dissonance, but it's weird that the alt-left is being so brazen about it this time. as a conservative who isn't a fucking racist, this is a dangerous time to be alive. implication of being a white supremacist = social death.

>>9903042
This
I don't think the average normalfag would go on a rant about Schopenhauer misogyny