/lit/ - Literature

go on...

Once you "get it", you are already happy.

I personally prefer Patanjali's Sutras, which has a similar vision but also tackles the "action vs. contemplation" duality of the Path.

>>9659976
Patanjalis prose sucks

>>9659705
>paganism

>>9659948
>>9659705
Would you give us a quick rundown about what it is that makes you conclude this?
I only know Taoism a bit through Watts speaking about it and having read (almost) everything of PKD.

>>9660172
Look, and it can't be seen.
Listen, and it can't be heard.
Reach, and it can't be grasped.

Above, it isn't bright.
Below, it isn't dark.
Seamless, unnamable,
it returns to the realm of nothing.
Form that includes all forms,
image without an image,
subtle, beyond all conception.

Approach it and there is no beginning;
follow it and there is no end.
You can't know it, but you can be it,
at ease in your own life.
Just realize where you come from:
this is the essence of wisdom.

>>9660183
Thank you

>>9660212

tfw no jewish gif

dude just stop feeling things xd who cares

Growing up my mom was suburban Buddhist and while all my friends were having their teenage "Buddhism is way better than Christianity, mom!" moments I was having my "Taoism is way better than Buddhism, mom!" moment.
I hadn't even read the Tao Te Ching, just the Wikipedia on it.

>>9660218
Feeling about those things
>see pic
Have a song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j84Z_4IPbHk

>>9659705
>might be

i think youre in for a nice surprise. but go ahead, the fun of it is the path, not its supposed goal.

>>9659705
I doubt it, but Taoism has really helped me in my life. If you're like >>9660228, you really should be reading the Tao Te Ching and the Book of Chuang Tzu though. They're good reads and they'll give you more to talk and think about.

If you are trying to employ Taoism in your personal pursuit of happiness, then you are doing it wrong.

>tfw xiao is the ultimate way to harmonious peace for all people under the heavens

>>9659705
Taoism is great and all, but it's nothing compared to Islam. You should try reading the Qur'an, anon.

Taoism is just an esoteric, blundering Eastern form of stoicism with more focus on faith than individualist freedom.

>>9661693
>Stoicism is just an obfuscating, blundering Western form of Taoism with more focus on abstraction than individualist freedom.

>>9661726

>>9661693
this is plain nonsense

>>9659705
I remembered something like those who speak about Tao knows shit about Tao.

>>9661693
Has anyone here practised Stoicism in a major way?

What do you do when you burnout or did you burnout at all?

Do you just pickup were you left off straight away after burning out?

>>9660183

the star translation is shit, be ashamed

>>9659705
pro-tip: it's not
also: ur gay LULZ

>happiness

you pleb

>>9660218
>tfw no jewish gif

tfw actually getting head once in a while

>The writings of Daoist sages are not concerned with the Dao but with how you can be happy
>The practices associated with the Way are not associated with the Way and the variety of dualities and forms that abide in it but about you being happy
>The endgame of any legitimate form of spirituality is as mundane as 'happiness'
Err...

>>9660144

>Patanjalis """prose""" sucks

I pitty you

>>9659705
I've felt this way for years. But then I'm a slacker who hates the thought of wasting effort.

Taoism is the most practical philosophy I've encountered. I've used profitably as an investing strategy, amongst other applications.

>>9662363
What is it with Jewish girls and sucking dick? I hooked up with a Jewish girl a couple of times and she got me off with her mouth more times over the course of the two days and nights that we spent together than any other girl I've fucked or who has given me head.

>>9662365
t. self-flagellating Protestant who hates the idea of earthly happiness.

>>9659705
I basically don't know anything about Taoism but one of the best Touhou characters is a Taoist so it can't be all that bad.

>>9662379
>protestants
>not autistically focused on the earthly pursuit of happiness
err

>>9660144
I lol'd.

>>9662383
Meet your local neighbourhood protestants.

Don't they look happy?

>>9662492
i think you mean "puritans"
protestant means wasp to me
secular protestantism is more protestant than protestantism itself

>>9659705
>Taoism
There's no such thing, you tard. What you call 'taoism' is a Western new-age invention.

The authentic 道教 is just a souped-up fengshui mostly concerned about gaining health and magical powers by eating magic cereal.

>>9662294
We look but don't see it and call it indistinct
we listen but don't hear it and call it faint
we reach but don't grasp it and call it ethereal
three failed means to knowledge
I weave into one
with no light above and no shade below
too fine to be named
returning to nothing
this is the formless form
the immaterial image
this is the waxing waning
we meet without seeing its face
we follow without seeing its back
holding onto this very Way we rule this very realm and discover its ancient past
this is the thread of the Way

>>9662379
>tfw I fucking hate earthly happiness (specially coming from religious people) yet I'm not religious

How do I deal with this?

What's the difference between Taoism, Zen Buddhism, and Stoicism?

>>9660183
>>9659705
Don't forget the best companion text.

>>9661693
>>9661726
How about you read both and stop bickering over minute details?

Reminder that the Tao Te Ching is an eminently political document that explains how to rule one's subjects successfully.

Also >looking for happiness in a book

Don't forget about the 'hap,' i.e., luck or chance, in 'happiness.' You don't find it; it befalls you, and can just as soon go away.

bumping for based taoism

>>9663049
True, the Tao is even mentioned as one of the essential criteria for victory in The Art of War.

>>9663049

With the legend being he left the capital after diligently serving the Imperial House his entire life, without known reason, it can be argued that it was very clear he was discontent and that the Tao Te Ching is a rebellious document.

>>9660158
>Christianity

>>9663113
>legend

Sure, but we don't even know if he was real.

>>9663241

Yes. Hence the use of the word legend. What the fuck is wrong with you?

>>9660228
They're virtually the same.

>>9663847
Buddhism is to an extent based on a rejection of reality, Taoism is about accepting it.

>>9662379
I don't think you know the first thing about Protestantism or the Doadejing.

>>9662375
Come on, there has to be at least one Jewish girl in this thread who can explain to me why she enjoys sucking dick.

>>9659705

>no might about it bucko.

>>9659705
pagan cuck

>>9660218
Life is suffering.

>>9660218
tfw had a jewish gf
tfw I'm uncut and she didnt want to give me head because of that

was still the best sex I've ever had and also the only sex

I've been practicing and studying taoism for a year now.

I was about to kill myself, couldnt leave the house because of panic attacks and axiety.

It's all gone now, I am happy, I'm enjoying life, I havent had a panic attack or anxiety in at least 8 months

>>9664912
Damn. Do tell how.
I'm a nervous wreck.

>>9665145
Ingesting mercury.

>>9665215
My parents did that as kids and they're probably worse off than I am

>>9665145
I don't know, I bought the tao te ching, read it. Came back to parts that were relevant whenever I needed them.

I also read the Tao of pooh and it helped me quite a lot.

The most important part is the try to apply what you think you understand. Wu Wei was the hardest for me but it was the most helpful. I also stoped listening to music while I walked and started listening to whatever was going on around me, reduced my screen time to a bare minimum, started going to bed at the same time everyday and waking up early (10pm and 6 am) and started doing 10 minutes guided meditation sessions every morning.

I don't know if it will work for you but my life is changed forever.

>>9663276
I'm just wondering why you would even mention a legend as if it was aiding the conversation.

>>9665224>>9665145
Different guy, same results (going from a mess to being content for the first time)

Also, strongly recommend The Miracle of Mindfullness (https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Thich%20Nhat%20Hanh%20-%20The%20Miracle%20of%20Mindfulness.pdf)) - He's a Buddhist, and I can claim to understand the difference between Buddhism and Zen, but it helped me a ton.

>>9666775
Err, can't claim. I know nothing.

>implying you dont vomit after the cumshot
>if you dont think that its a thing you're sorely mistaken

>it's a '15 year old white kid watches an Alan Watts lecture on YouTube and thinks he has a good grasp on Eastern religious thought' episode

Ebin.

>>9662927
What's the difference between Catholics Jews and Baptists

>>9667952
I read the Daode Jing and Zhuangzi.

>>9666808
Zen in a nutshell is a more hipster version that tried to spice things up by wearing a scarf. A shit analogy I know, but that's just my western perspective

>>9667952
I read journey to the west. Am I in the same boat?

>>9667996
The complete Zhuangzi? Multiple translations of each? Any of the other contemporaneous schools of philosophy? Any other texts aside from those two?

You're kinda proving his point.


"I know about Christianity. I read Genesis and Paul."

>>9661676
Islam is pretty fucking cool and everything, but you should try reading Donald J. Trump's Tweets. This shit is mind blowing.

>>9662046
Awesome indeed.

>>9664912
>>9665224
>>9666775
I'm with you guys.

1/ Read the Tao Te King
2/ Compare all available translations
3/ ????
4/ Profit!

>>9668260
Trumpism is very cool men,but have you tried coming to Mexico?
Shit is next level

In addition to this >>9668081

Daoism splintered off into some weird, nonsensical cults. I took a course on it and the farther we got from the early texts the more it became ridiculous, though you have to take into account the time period, of course. But at that point you're reading purely out of interest and it has very little beneficial content.

Westerners can't 'get' Taoism. Taoism is little more than a channeling of primitive Chinese religious traditions into a more substantive and doctrinal form that was invented in the first millennium BC when other competing philosophies were being developed in China. Taoism is much less a philosophy than an outlet for the Chinese tendencies towards magic and dualism and so on, that the Confucian philosophies could not provide.

>>9668551
So why can't Westerners 'get' it? Seems like there's not anything to 'get.'

Try as we will to take the “cure” of ineffectuality; to meditate on the Taoist fathers’ doctrine of submission, of withdrawal, of a sovereign absence; to follow, like them, the course of consciousness once it ceases to be at grips with the world and weds the form of things as water does, their favorite element—we shall never succeed. They scorn both our curiosity and our thirst for suffering; in which they differ from the mystics, and especially from the medieval ones, so apt to recommend the virtues of the hair shirt, the scourge, insomnia, inanition, and lament.
“A life of intensity is_contrary to the Tao,” teaches Lao Tse, a normal man if ever there was one. But the Christian virus torments us: heirs of the flagellants, it is by refining our excruciations that we become conscious of ourselves. Is religion declining? We perpetuate its extravagances, as we perpetuate the macerations and the cell-shrieks of old, our will to suffer equaling that of the monasteries in their heyday. If the Church no longer enjoys a monopoly on hell, it has nonetheless riveted us to a chain of sighs, to the cult of the ordeal, of blasted joys and jubilant despair.
The mind, as well as the body, pays for “a life of intensity.” Masters in the art of thinking against oneself, Nietzsche, Baudelaire, and Dostoevsky have taught us to side with our dangers, to broaden the sphere of our diseases, to acquire existence by division from our being. And what for the great Chinaman was a symbol of failure, a proof of imperfection, constitutes for us the sole mode of possessing, of making contact with ourselves.

>>9668674
Deliverance, if we insist upon it, must proceed from ourselves: no use seeking it elsewhere, in a ready-made system or in some Oriental doctrine. Yet this is often what happens in many a mind avid, as we say, for an absolute. But such wisdom is fraudulent, such deliverance merely dupery. I am indicting not only theosophy and its adepts, but all those who adopt truths incompatible with their nature. More than one such man has an Instant India and supposes he has plumbed its secrets, when nothing—neither his character nor his training nor his anxieties—prepares him for any such thing. What a swarm of the pseudo-”delivered” stares down at us from the pinnacle of their salvation! Their conscience is clear—do they not claim to locate themselves above their actions? An intolerable swindle. They aim, further, so high that any conventional religion seems to them a family prejudice by which their “metaphysical mind” cannot be satisfied. To convert to India, doubtless that is more satisfying. But they forget that India postulates the agreement of idea and act, the identity of salvation and renunciation. When one possesses a “metaphysical mind,” such trifles are scarcely worth one’s concern.

>>9668651
Let me put it another way: non-Chinese can't understand it because they were not brought up with the traditions of which it is a part of. It only makes sense as a religion or whatever, if you have a very specific cultural heritage.

>>9668674
>>9668679
This is a good piece of writing. The thought he tries to convey, not so much. Did you write this?

>>9668699
>It only makes sense as a religion or whatever, if you have a very specific cultural heritage.
So does that mean that anyone who isn't a pre-Revolutionary Chinaman should just pretend that Daoism doesn't exist? I'm not sure what you want me to take away from this.

desu it doesn't seem to me to be the kind of thing that even involves 'understanding.'

>>9668899
I think he is meaning to say that Taoism implies a certain structuring of the universe that, coming from a western cultural heritage, may be difficult for Westerners to understand and fully internalize. I disagree with him, but that seems to be his argument.
I also disagree with your continued assumption that there's "nothing" to Taoism. It's a pretty rich religion with a lot of interesting concepts that are indeed complicated to truly understand.

>>9668907
>I disagree with him, but that seems to be his argument.
Then take it up with him, not with the person who knows what he's saying and also disagrees with him.
>I also disagree with your continued assumption that there's "nothing" to Taoism.
That's not what I'm saying, you illiterate faggot. I'm saying that it isn't a religion based around a rational understanding of dogma and that emphasizing an 'understanding' of Daoism is missing the point altogether. It's Chinese folk alchemy, not a math problem.

>>9668899
What I'm saying is that it's an indigenous (non universal) religion, similar to various types of shamanic, animist etc. religious traditions. The major difference being that it was put into a doctrinal and textual tradition. Like Shinto I guess (for want of a better comparison) it has little to offer for the non-native, and it does not make sense to approach it as a philosophy. I agree that it is not something that involves understanding.

>>9659705

Its a cool and readily accessible form of divination-like entertainment

I like the idea of how slim the odds are of any particular reading

The fact is that Western thought is ultimately about getting a one up on reality. What they might call a 'loss of control and understanding' is quite the opposite. I think if we all take a step back at what we really control, what we really choose, where we are really going, we'll realize it's not quite so comforting to live with the weight of reality pushing back at you.

When Taoist thought talks about doing what's natural, that's how I interpret it. We'er all 'victims' of entropy. It's not about 'giving up,' it's not about 'not feeling,' it's not about 'IN-action,' it's quite explicitly stated it's about 'UN-action!' The lack of action. A place where action isn't even an option. Everyone's so scared to give up on something that isn't going to happen. But I guess that's ultimately a matter of faith one way or the other. I myself will gladly forfeit my opportunity to become God-King if it means my days are peaceful.

>>9668948
>and it does not make sense to approach it as a philosophy.
Why not? I've taken classes taught by native Chinese who treated the Daodejing as a text that can be interrogated using the tools of philosophy--not as just a philosophy book, mind you, but certainly not as something 'outside' of the purview of philosophy.

>>9668945
>It's Chinese folk alchemy

OK, let me clarify. My point in saying that Westerners can't understand Taoism is that it is a misunderstanding of what Taoism is to approach it as a philosophy or a religion. In other words, we're in agreement on this whole thing.

>>9662375
Why only 2 days?

>>9668945
>It's Chinese folk alchemy,
Maybe in its formative stages, but it has advanced past that considerably into a religious internal and cosmological alchemy

>>9669036
We just haven't talked much since then, we still reply to each other on Twitter and favorite each other's tweets. We talked about seeing each other again but the summer we hooked up was also the summer I started posting on /pol/ so aside from my normal fears of rejection I'm also aware of differences between Jews and non-Jews now that weren't as clear to me before, and I know enough about her personally to know that she might be a toxic addition to my life Jewry aside. We have mutual friends and part of me just wanted to fuck someone from my friend's hometown to say that I did it. And then there's the fact that my penis didn't fit inside her vagina, because of the angle of my penis (it points straight up toward my head when erect) or the angle of her vagina (I didn't inquire into this because if a girl has a weird vagina then it's not something that I want to point out in bed). We tried a few positions and it didn't work out. So even if I hit her up again and we got together, we probably wouldn't be having sex, which kind of puts a damper on things. We spent 2 days and 2 nights together because the first day and night we didn't try to have sex and stuck to oral. After the second time we met up a few weeks later I just felt weird about not being able to have sex and the fact that she's probably kind of unstable on some level. I want a stable relationship at this point and I feel like she wouldn't be right for that, especially if sex is something that matters to us both, which I think it is.
But I haven't gotten laid in 13 months. I might talk to her again, but like I said I have a fear of rejection.

>>9669044
>Folk implies the opposite of internal or cosmological
hmm

>>9669078
Oh, cool. Just don't post on /pol/ and you'll be straight.

>>9669096
Yeah I mean post-Trump they're unbearable even for getting a perspective on the news, which was what I was doing there for the past couple years, other than learning about conservative and right-wing ideology. I don't post there anymore anyway. Still, like I said, there's more to her than just being Jewish, there are a few other red flags, and we might not be able to fuck because of the angles of our genitals. That would be a deal-breaker and I think it's already understood to have broken a deal. I don't know. If I ever see her again I'll talk to her about where we're at, anyway, just for clarity at least.

>>9668949
You're thinking of the I-Ching

>>9662848
Stop being a piece of shit?

>>9668699
>Don't start with the greeks.
>Everybody should just read his own diary.

>>9660172

Tao is shorthand for unified cosmic energy that drives existence, chinese psychobabble version of "go with the flow"

>>9665224
>waking up early (10pm and 6 am)
very good, try even 4am

>>9670800
That's qi. The tao is an interdependent cosmological web of processes being undertaken.

>>9668950
>>When Taoist thought talks about doing what's natural, that's how I interpret it. We'er all 'victims' of entropy. It's not about 'giving up,' it's not about 'not feeling,' it's not about 'IN-action,' it's quite explicitly stated it's about 'UN-action!'
what is the difference between inaction and unaction.

>>9671003
That would be my goal but I work until 9pm, I need more than 6 hours of sleep

>>9671073
It's about action without striving for or clinging to results. Effortless action.

>>9670800
"Go with the Flow" is a song by Queens of the Stone Age from the album Songs for the Deaf, released as a single in 2003.

Hell yeah man. The tao is as good as it gets.

Be like water friend.

>>9671674

"Water, that which benefits the ten-thousand things yet contends none" This line has stuck with me. Unironically, being like water is a good ethos. Good life meme to follow.

>>9659705
Isn't daoism for like old people and stuff?

>>9660158
even christians read the tao te ching. it isnt strictly paganism.

>>9671706
precisely
cool old people

>>9671744
this
perfectly compatible

>>9672030
you mean cool old people doing kungfu?

bump

>>9669082
Folk implies non institutional which is untrue as fuck

>>9659705
fuck your happiness worship

>>9668335
> Hasn't been to Afghanistan

Please just kys

>>9668699
Please just stfu

>>9668674
1.This is retarded
2. Your so obviously excited to think you know something that your willing to be avsolutely wrong about a subject you don't even know to say something you have just begun to feel.
3. Besides your vocabulary, you come off as a director at the Theater of the Absurd with Antoine at your heel and Beckett asking on himself next to Dolly Parton.

>>9673146
>Folk implies non institutional
This is news to me. It implies a lesser degree of institutional organization than, I don't know, 'high' as a prefix of 'culture' but it doesn't imply a lack of institutions. Have you never spent any time outside of a city?

>>9673226
Stop using that word then, because it is used to used to denote religions and practices distinct from doctrine. Within its various organized sects, Taoism has a high amount of regulation by institutional bodies. You are thinking of Chinese Folk Religion.

>>9668679
You remind of the kind of writer that I would frequent in my youth. Bored me to death and because I was unread I supposed that my misunderstanding you was on account of my "lack of education". Now , seeing you for what you are, a puppeteers wardrobe designer, I can't help but feel like I want to murder you for these crimes against language. ie I fucking hate you

>>9673241
>Stop using that word then, because it is used to used to denote religions and practices distinct from doctrine.
"Doctrine" means the same thing as "institution" now? Are you moving the goalposts on purpose or are you just too stupid to realize that not all words are synonyms?

>>9671481
Correct

Now if only the Dao Nothing Meme could end

>>9673249
Institution replicates and regulates practice in respect to doctrine. You have clearly never read even basic intro into religion books.

>>9673263
Could you clarify exactly what your point is supposed to be? I'm having trouble following the thread of your argument because of the way you treat words like 'institution' and 'doctrine' as if their meaning is self-evident and often synonymous.
I don't understand what your point is--that 'folk' spirituality is spirituality without doctrines, or without institutions that govern doctrine?
As for your last offhand comment, what is 'intro to religion?' Is it a class that atheists force their kids to take instead of sending them to Church on Sundays like good parents do?

>>9673296
Okay. Folk religions are practices that exist outside official doctrine as regulated by institutional bodies. Therefore, folk religions have no clearly defined institution, and no defined set of practices. Taoism has a clear institution, and those institutions clearly define what is doctrine, outline practices, and justify those practices in respect to doctrine. Taoism is not a "folk religion", but Chinese Folk Religion is influenced by and in some ways influences institutional religion.
>sending them to Church on Sundays like good parents do
Perhaps you are misconstruing Taoism because you are looking at it from a preconceived notion of what an official should look like.

>>9673337
>Therefore, folk religions have no clearly defined institution, and no defined set of practices. Taoism has a clear institution,
>Taoism has a clear institution,
Does it, now?
> Perhaps you are misconstruing Taoism because you are looking at it from a preconceived notion of what an official should look like.
How is that not what you're doing? Your entire argument is that, like any religion, Daoism has an authoritative and obvious institutional body determining what is and isn't doctrine. You've posted no evidence supporting this claim. All you've done is give us a template by which to identify religions for the sake of clarifying what Daoism is, and then tell us that the template actually doesn't work with Daoism and that everyone but you is an idiot because they aren't seeing the clearly defined Church of the Dao as clearly as you are.
What is this Daoist institution?
>Taoism is not a "folk religion",'
You're the first person claiming to be an authority on this matter to tell me this, actually. I never called it a 'folk religion,' by the way, I called it 'folk alchemy.' Maybe you just don't know what alchemy is.

>>9673350
>Does it, now?
Yes it fucking does. It can be found in Taoist temples, with hierarchies of monks acting as arbiters of practice and who lead routine ritual worship. Folk Religion does not have this.
>How is that not what you're doing?
Folk religion is an academic term used to make sense of religion outside administrative bodies. Its definition of institutional religions is broad enough to encompass many if not all religions under its definition. I am against the misuse of this term.
>Daoism has an authoritative and obvious institutional body determining what is and isn't doctrine. You've posted no evidence supporting this claim
In Christianity, we go to church and are told by our priests how to interpret the Bible, how to confess our sins, how to pray, ect. The Church is an institution of religion. The Priest is regulating practice and outlining doctrine.
In Taoism, you do a similar thing to your local temple.
This is opposed to a folk practice, like the worship of a saint that isn't canon, and the pilgrimage to his alleged shrine which is not regularly maintained by any type of association.
>they aren't seeing the clearly defined Church of the Dao as clearly as you are.
>What is this Daoist institution?
There is literally a fucking Taoist Association that administers activities in its member orders. Outside of this, each individual order administers its own temples. Although lay practice may involve folk religious actions, Taoism is distinct from this.
>by the way, I called it 'folk alchemy.' Maybe you just don't know what alchemy is.
Nice goalpost shift. I was arguing against the "folk" label, which implies non-institutional. It also is primarily a religion, though its practice involves internal alchemy.

>>9673412
>It can be found in Taoist temples, with hierarchies of monks acting as arbiters of practice and who lead routine ritual worship. Folk Religion does not have this.
[citation needed] for both aspects of this claim.
>Folk religion is an academic term used to make sense of religion outside administrative bodies
>I am against the misuse of this term
I DIDN'T USE THAT FUCKING TERM YOU TRIPLE RETARD
>In Taoism, you do a similar thing to your local temple.
I want to castrate you for being so fucking stupid. You're trying to tell me that this is all there is to Daoism?
>This is opposed to a folk practice, like the worship of a saint that isn't canon, and the pilgrimage to his alleged shrine which is not regularly maintained by any type of association.
Are you seriously implying that no Daoist has ever deviated from the official doctrines of a set council of Daoist elders who make Pope-like proclamations whose defiance means excommunication from Daoendom or something? How fucking stupid are you? A minute ago you were saying that my rigid non-Chinese conceptions of religion are getting in the way of my understanding what Daosim is, now you're saying that Daoism is organized just like Christianity but with a different set of doctrines. You're a fucking idiot.
>There is literally a fucking Taoist Association that administers activities in its member orders.
OK, nice--what does it do and who lets it do it?
>Although lay practice may involve folk religious actions, Taoism is distinct from this.
So particular forms of Taoism aren't actually forms of Taoism? I'm confused, now.
>It also is primarily a religion
What does the word 'religion' mean and why do you assume that we all understand it by one rigid definition?
Congratulations on thinking that you understand what the word 'folk' means, you've done a poor job of convincing me that you understand anything.

>>9673446
>I DIDN'T USE THAT FUCKING TERM
Then fuck off and say that at the start instead of claiming Taoism has no fucking institution, asshole.
>Are you seriously implying that no Daoist has ever deviated from the official doctrines
No, but like any other religious schism, they went against an accepted body of practices/official doctrines to outline their own school.
>now you're saying that Daoism is organized just like Christianity
I didn't say that you autist. I was dumbing it down so you can understand that they both operate similarly as institutions of religion.
>You're trying to tell me that this is all there is to Daoism
That's called fucking practice and yes. Cry me a river. Would you expect some Chinese guy who read some translated Augustine, never went to church, and walked around thinking he was doing God's will to be considered Christian?
>So particular forms of Taoism aren't actually forms of Taoism?
No, particular practices that do not derive from Taoism may be present alongside doctrine-justified Taoist practice.
>What does the word 'religion' mean
I usually operate on Lincoln's definition, in response to Assadian critique of Geertz.
>(1) A discourse whose concerns transcend the human, temporal and contingent, and that claims a similarly transcendent status.
>(2) A set of practices whose goal is to produce a proper world and/or proper human subjects, as defined by a religious discourse to which these practices are connected.
>(3) A community whose members construct their identity with reference to a religious discourse and its attendent practices.
>(4) An institution that regulates religious discourse, practices, and community, reproducing them over time and modifying them as necessary, while asserting their eternal validity and transcendent value.
Go fuck yourself.

>>9673446
Also if you seriously believe there are no Taoist temples then kill yourself you

>>9673466
>Then fuck off and say that at the start instead of claiming Taoism has no fucking institution, asshole.
You butted in at the conclusion of a long fucking argument, you can fuck right off.
>>9673467
>Then fuck off and say that at the start instead of claiming Taoism has no fucking institution, asshole.
You have the reading comprehension of a fetus.

The issue of institutionalization in the history of Daoism is pretty thorny. I was recently at a Daoism conference where an authority on Early Daoist Scriptures said that without the intermittent centripetal force of Daoist-oriented dynasties there would be no Daoism to speak of. So you guys are butting up against a valid and interesting point.

On the other hand, the history of Daoism is extremely anarchical, and despite several redactions of the Daoist canon over the course of a millennium, there was never anything remotely like the doctrinal unity evident in the history of Catholicism.

And unless you're reading scholarship from the 1970's, the differentiation between philosophical and religious Daoism, or the pure Daoism of Laozi and Zhuangzi and the dark impure Daoism of Chinese folk religion, is a spurious survival of jesuit polemics (the origin of western conceptions of Daoism), Hegelian philosophy of religion, and unilineal anthropology. It's way more complicated, as any book written in the last 15 years will show.

>>9673688
>I was recently at a Daoism conference


Stopped reading there

>>9673694
You wouldn't be reading this thread at all if you were as profound as you want us to infer from this post.

>>9673701
Not profound, just another talking ape getting touch with the powers of virtuality

>>9673712
YES
YEEEEES
YEEEEESSSS
DEEP
DEEP
DEEP
PROFOUND
YES

>>9660218
There's a jewish .gif right above your post, dumb frogposter

>>9673715
Kek

>>9673688

Chapter 2

>This is why sages abide in the business of nonaction,
>And practice the teaching that is without words

>>9659705

For you maybe, but for the general population I'm not so sure.

You have to be pretty intelligent and have some measure of wisdom already to simply read the tao te ching and then use that to enter a blissful state.

To most people the book probably seems like a collection of tranquil but ultimately forgettable proverbs. The last thing that you'd expect the average westerner to be able to do is to read it and then reach true happiness through employing what they learned.

In order to get their gears going the average person needs to join some sort of strict religious order or attend some sort of retreat or participate in some some of ritualistic or initiatory ceremony and can't just access that state by reading a Daoist text.

Which brings us back to the question - if Daoism is the ultimate way for only a niche of the population can it still justifiably be called the ultimate way?

>>9673860
Where would Daoist texts like the Daode Jing and the Zhuangzi fit on this chart?

>>9673860
>tolkein, huxley and orwell in the same level as king and clancy
kys

>>9673860
You're probably the biggest pseud ITT.

>>9673476
>You have the reading comprehension of a fetus.
>> Your entire argument is that, like any religion, Daoism has an authoritative and obvious institutional body determining what is and isn't doctrine. You've posted no evidence supporting this claim.
>>What is this Daoist institution?
Backpedaling on your part. If you can't even comprehend your own statements, better throw that insult back on yourself.

>>9675006
Well, what is the Daoist institution in question? You named one "Daoist society" and left it at that. Come on, faggot, you must know that that isn't good enough, not when contemporary China is what it is (i.e. a totalitarian hellhole that is in the process of reterritorializing every inch of itself).
Aside from all that, like I said, you're butting in after the conclusion of an argument that didn't involve you. You're a retard.

>>9675031
Define institution for me please, because I have given both local and overarching examples.
>not when contemporary China is what it is
Taoism has little to no practitioners outside of China. In Taiwan, the most prevalent administrative body is the Way of Orthodox Unity school.
>you're butting in after the conclusion of an argument that didn't involve you
Your argument that Taoism isn't a religion? That sure was an entertain and strong thought you had there.

>>9673860
Anybody have a chart like this but for philosophies and religious thought?

>>9659705
>taoism
>happiness
Maybe you should read that again...

>>9675058
true happiness is getting your new iPad from the UPS guy, opening the box, peeling off the plastic cover, and feeling okay for fifteen minutes

>>9659705
It's just lightweight stoicism

>>9675044
>Define institution for me please
Not until you tell me what your idea of a 'Daoist institution' is and why it isn't just a projection of Western ecclesial structures as found in Christianity or Judaism onto an Oriental spiritual tradition. Which is precisely what you're doing by asserting that Daoism is centered around communal congregation in local temples. While I do not deny that this is a prominent element of the religion, it is misleading to point at this and say "See? It's an organized institutional religion just like Christianity!" instead of looking at the factual discontinuities between Daoist practice in antiquity and in the present.
God damn it, you're an idiot.
>Your argument that Taoism isn't a religion?
I'm not going to respond to you after this post because it's clear that you could even follow the argument that you decided to jump into.
>Taoism has little to no practitioners outside of China
I don't understand what this is supposed to mean, you fucking idiot. My point is about the strict regulation of religion within Communist-ruled China. You're a dense motherfucker or a chink propagandist.

>>9675300
The temple itself is an institution you dunce.

>>9675311
lol fucking kill yourself, you fucking idiot

>>9675328
Good argument, buddy. Get some sleep.

>>9675169
based reviewbrah which one of his videos is the gif from?

>>9675339
something about last shortwave transmission from some station

>>9675339
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH9ouo8-Dww

>>9675345
who films him?

>>9675345
I wonder who filmed, did he get one of his parents to do it or did he pay a random bum?

>>9675352
>>9675354
probably has a mate film him

>>9675359
>reviewbrah
>having friends

>>9675365
shut the fuck up