/lit/ - Literature

>When did communism become a meme again in the U.S.?

When whitey finally got it as bad as the other minorities.

It will always be a meme until you retards stop calling everything left of democratic party "gommunism".

>>9551361
Ancoms and pic related are literally communists you stupid faggot

>>9551372
Actually i take back pic related
They're just using communist buzzwords, i don't actually know that they're communists

Marxist subversion has been around for decades.

>>9551351
>political philosophy
Lmao I thought this site had an age requirement

>>9551351

have considered that there's been marxist labor movements persistently since the middle of the 19th century and that what you are now perceiving as a :::new meme::: is just your own coming to class consciousness colliding with your own doctrinaire regressive views of politics and history?

liberals will always frame young people getting interested in marx as a "new trend among the youth" because marxism threatens their pop-patriarchal ABC sitcom familial structures locally and their petit-bourgoeis/middle class ideologies globally.

>>9551409
>marxism threatens

marxism threatens every member of the population with unimaginable suffering, up to and including totalitarian thought control, extrajudicial murder, deliberate mass starvation, enslavement, universal penury, and all the other horrors attendant to hard-left regimes

the hardest left regimes in the world today are venezuela, cuba and north korea, look at how well that's going for them...

>>9551458
>the hardest left regimes in the world today are venezuela, cuba and north korea, look at how well that's going for them...

Surely you realize those are not real communism, and even so their difficulties are only due to hostility from capitalist imperialist powers :^)

>>9551458

you seem to have confused marxism with stalinism. try again after you've read a book

>>9551502

It can't be coincidence though that the countries that attempted marxism ended up being totalitarian regimes, surely?

>>9551540

you're papering over historical ignorance with generality. what the fuck does it mean to "Attempt Marxism"

because it is a meme you semenspouting pretentiousfag

socialism, neo-liberal capitalism, monarchal feudalism only acceptable systems of government in the modern era

part 1. spend less time on social media, communism is not very popular in the real world

part 2. never trust a self declared communist who does not work.

most of the people you are referring to, OP, tend to confuse communism with welfare state socialism, and have this bizarre belief that communism is the emancipation of labor. it isnt, if anything a transition to a communist economy would pull most of these people out of their ivory towers and into the farms and factories.

also anyone who says a revolution from the left can come about bloodlessly is wrong.

It's a combination of the great recession and Fox News's inability to go five seconds during Obama's first term without referring to something as socialism.

>>9551351
It's straightforward and has little to do with "lacking an education" desu

>>9551540
It's not read some Nietzsche and you'll understand how it can never work since it conflicts human nature

>>9551351
>a meme again
When did it stop?

>>9551628

what would nietsche know about human nature? he can tell you an awful lot about german, perhaps even expanded to european, nature and society, but those are not representative of overall human nature.

>>9551628

>nietzsche, an autistic syphilitic, has enduring insight into Human Nature™

read some nietzsche and you'll understand how transparent it is that you haven't read any philosophy when you cite him to make claims about a universal ideal like human nature

>>9551577
Note how the only good post ITT has no replies

>>9551663
>anon, a teenage autismo, thinks being edgy substitutes actual arguments
When the fuck do summer vacations start? Fuck off to a containment board with your ebin edgelord memetexts.

>>9551708

reverting to ad hominem declares yourself too much a brainlet to continue the conversation. why dont you fuck off and read a book?

>>9551711
This is the smartest poster on /lit/ guys

We found her

What's your IQ, Miss?

I bet it's like 700!

>>9551711
>literally based his whole ""argument"" on ad hominem towards Nietzsche
>muh ad hominem
Seriously - /b/, /pol/, /r9k/, /tv/. Just take your pick and leave this board for us, brainlets.

>read internet fight
>neither side makes a persuasive argument I can agree with

>>9551409
Actually i was marxist because of my eastern euro cultural/financial background up until about high school
I can't seem to recall Antifa's setting streets on fire in response to peaceful demonstrations until a few years ago
>Inb4 antifa/= ancoms but shut the fuck up they're literally flying ancom flags while pretending they're just there to protest "fascists".

The reason we frame the nuclear family as ideal is because they and their kids statistically perform better financially than broken up families
If you're going to be a postmod cunt saying "u don no if das da bes" then you should at least provide statistics for a functionally preferable alternative instead of destroying what works to put in place what you decided was the best, you insufferable bottom-feeding edgelord

>>9551777
Neck you are self

>>9551719
>>9551721

im not even the guy you were insulting, just an outside observer. your lack of self awareness is astounding.

>>9551780
>The reason we frame the nuclear family as ideal is because they and their kids statistically perform better financially than broken up families
yeah that's how most people form their preferences, by reading statistics

>>9551351
Go back to /pol/

But for a serious answer: since basically the whole washington consensus crumbled a couple of years ago and the last 40 years of economic policies have proven nothing but disastrous.

>>9551780

[citations required]

as it stands you are espousing dogma as proof in and of itself

>>9551708

i'm not being edgy. im just pointing that making some ridiculous, unsubstantiated claim about "human nature" is completely incongruous with the final critic of metaphysics, nietzsche, upon whom your stupid ideas rest for authority. read a book. get educated. learn history of philosophy. it might do you some good.

>>9551600
hmmm

I wonder what happened in 1979?

>>9551780
What the fuck does nuclear families have to do with Marxism or communism? lol

>>9551721

no. the truth of the post was that it's really obvious you haven't read any philosophy if you think nietzsche is ever talking about "human nature"

How do we debate with "self-proclaimed communists"? What should I read?

>>9551821
>argument from human nature
>Nietzsche

Also I love how you imply that capitalism doesn't conflict with human nature since it still requires for people to be honest and respect contracts.

>>9551806
>your lack of self awareness is astounding

Anon I'm shit posting

I win and you've lost

>>9551378
if it quacks like a duck

>>9551826

capitalism in the 19th century required strong male laborers to do back breaking work. this demanded in turn women in the home doing unpaid labor to support them, as well as doing the unpaid labor of reproducing strong laborers in the form of the child. moreover, by the mid 20th century this ideological reproduction of the family revealed its own truth when the family comes to be viewed as a little enterprise in its own, headed by its boss daddy. the nuclear family has always been the concrete site of the reproduction of capitalism, and a lot of critique, both theoretical and practical, has to start there. not all of it, not even most of it, but a lot of it. this, incidentally, is why anti-marxist feminism is a contradiction in terms.

>>9551822

the result of nixons changes to the way our economy functions, that is unshackling the dollar from gold

>>9551841
Also the year Thatcher was elected and one year before Reagan was elected. Really makes you think.

(Also Iranian revolution and Chinese invasion of Vietnam)

>>9551839
The nuclear family is an institution made of a legal status and a material status (the unity of a father a mother and children).

Criticism of its legal status (capital organizes itself in a form of exploitation because the family forms support eg.: both parents can work because grandma takes care of the children) is different from criticism of its material form. In fact many communists were very socially conservative.

I'm not though, and I think that in the case of the family personal freedom come first and the effect on the children is irrelevant.

>>9551839

dissolution of the family is the authoritarian wing of the left who despise independent thought.

Indian or Italian, lads?

>>9551857

yes, taking control of the currency in this way was part of a concentrated effort to establish a new world order and honestly it worked out pretty well, until the reality of eternal growth began to set in. population control is very much on the minds of our benevolent leaders.

>>9551502
maybe one should question why every single marxist regime devolved into stalinism in the first place :^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^)

>>9551830
You shouldn't debate with them
Communists don't believe in property or human rights
They believe that the government should own your body and property to do with as it pleases.
To extend human rights to someone who does not extend those same rights to you is suicide

The only argument that communism merits is /physical removal/

>>9551896

you dont have a clue what youre talkin about. i doubt you even live in a city

>>9551830
you don't have to read Marx, since they haven't either. If they did, they wouldn't be Marxists.

>>9551822
Rocky came out in theaters.

>>9551910
What is the essential Marx to read to understand the core ideas of Marxism? And what must be read after him to understand how we got where we are?

>>9551458
I knew that peterson posted here.

>>9551906
wow /persuasive/

fyi I live and work in San Diego and have lived in multiple other major US cities. Not that it has any bearing on the topic under discussion.

Are you a communist?

>>9551916
>Theses on Feuerbach
>Socialism: Scientific and Utopian
>Critique of the Gotha Programme
>Wage Labor and Capital
>State and Revolution
>ABC's of Communism
>Anti-Duhring
>Synopsis of Capital
>On The Reproduction Of Capitalism: Ideology And Ideological State Apparatuses,
>On Ideology.
for where we are today, well you can try the Frankfurters, like Adorno, Horkheimer, and Marcuse. After that Debord's, "Society of the Spectacle." Marxism pretty much rapidly died off after the 60's though.

>>9551896
Right wing logic: I will just invent my reality so that I can be always right and I'll just keep repeating online because my repellent views have alienated every person that ever loved me and left my life in shambles... now let me tell you why high healthcare costs are a good thing...

>>9552108
now call me a racist

>>9552116
Nah you are just an idiot. Only an idiot would believe that property rights are natural

>>9552142
ownership is a natural extension of territoriality and an ability to defend oneself, a place, or a thing with violence

The only schools that teach right-wing and pro-capitalist materials in political philosophy classes are bottom-tier, 94% acceptance rate state schools and community colleges. It's why blue collar Americans are suspicious of and resent the educational system.

>>9552142
lol

>>9552181
all schools in America are pro-capitalist you clown, they're just neo-liberal.

>>9552192
>neo-liberal
meaningless outside economics
keep memeing yourself, bagman

What would you commies do if in real life you were having a discussion where you advocated Communism, and an immigrant who had family died/suffer from a regime overhears and tells you you're misguided? When I was a 14 year old marxist here in Florida elderly cubans let me have it lol. The cold war wasn't that long ago

>>9552207
what all leftists do - take a condescending tone and explain "not real communism lel"

>>9552207

right because a bunch of salty emigraes are your best source for positive attitudes toward former homeland. dumbass, do you ask only atheists to explain to you god, or garbage men to explain physics?

>>9552226
>People who lived under such conditions are not qualified to comment on such conditions

>>9552199
>being this much of an idiot
no neoliberal very well ties in with social and cultural positions, as does Marxism.

>>9552226
so you're saying those "salty emigres" are salty for no reason at all and just decided to abandon their homeland and go through all the trouble of relocating their families for no reason and gommunsim dindu nuffin

gotcha

>>9552243
>>9552232

no im saying youre obviously only going to get a negative attitude, poseur

>>9552226
then it that case you have no right to talk about communism either.
>you ought to be proud and happy that you had all your assets seized by a bunch of psychopathic untermensch, and who would've had your entire family summarily executed
lol, just lol.

Friendly reminder that all socialism is champagne socialism, and Marx's contribution to the ideology was merely a sophistic tool to legitimize the socialist platforms of classes historically unpopular with the working class majority.

>>9552247
you're implying those negative attitudes are illegitimate, which is false

>>9552207
Wealth has been redistributed to the top since ~1980. I don't think anyone believes "communism" would take root in the USA. Most "commies" want a shift away from feudal levels of wealth inequality. Less people opt for radical politics when they're financially secure. A massive underclass es no bueno

>>9552207
>be communist
>meet person who suffered under really existing socialism
>can't be communist anymore
>become pro-capitalist
>meet someone who suffered under really existing capitalism
>can't be pro-capitalist anymore
>become primitivist
>meet someone who suffered in a hunter gatherer society
>can't be primitivist anymore
>become pro-feudalist
>meet someone whose grandparent suffered under feudalism
>can't be pro-feudalist anymore
>become suicidal
>sudoku
>no one can convince yourself you're wrong anymore
the blackpill is the only ideology that works

>>9552270
>Wealth has been redistributed to the top since ~1980

BC?

>>9552247
>no criticism allowed here tovarish, only goodthink!

>>9552270
the funny thing about this is that communism creates an even larger wealth inequality - everyone is underclass except for the party members who make the decisions about the distribution of capital and goods.

the problem is central banking, fractional reserve banking, and globalist policies flooding the market with cheap labor.

>>9552174
So the consequence is that if someone takes it from you with force now it's rightfully his

>>9552276
suffering is part and parcel of the kingdom animalia
we all feel pain, we all shed blood
many of us are constantly engaged in killing each other with our faces and eating their flesh and blood. the ones who aren't engaged in this are primarily preoccupied with killing the animals attempting to kill them.
spilled blood is the eternal lubricant of evolution
in spite of this, limiting suffering to the greatest degree possible is a noble pursuit

>>9552298
Ultimately, yes.
However we exist under a government which recognizes property law, and concepts like theft. Going against the law legitimizes the use of societal-level force against the lawbreaker in retribution for his transgression. However if the thief is clever enough or powerful enough to circumvent this retribution he can, for all intents and purposes, be said to own that which he stole.

are you really so much of a child you don't understand this

>>9552298
also this point
>therefore if communism takes your property or life by force it is rightfully taken
is the point where I stop listening to any arguments you say and start killing you

>>9552298
wow it's almost like the original poster never conflated nature with morality like you did :^)

At this point, if communists want to behave like animals and forsake civilization, then they should be treated as such.

>>9551458

>the hardest left regimes in the world today are venezuela, cuba and north korea, look at how well that's going for them

Explain how these capitalist countries are leftist. Do the workers democratically control the economy in any of the listed? Certainly not Venezuela. Probably only minimally in Cuba. North Korea is essentially a jingoist monarchy.

The working class in Venezuela is rioting next to billboards advertising liquor and you assholes still have the gall to call it a socialism?

>>9551555
>>socialism, neo-liberal capitalism, monarchal feudalism

>Implying socialism can exist with neighboring capitalist countries without the US reagan-ing the region.

>>9552371
>only my definition of socialism is allowed to be socialism
lel, newsflash sweety, if your definition has literally never found its way in practice, then one ought start defining it based off its historical practice; not off your utopian definition.

>>9552371

>>9551628
>since it conflicts human nature

'Human nature' is not real. We have no reason to think that humans are preordained by any factual conditions to behave in any specific way. The only thing that exists is the human condition of total freedom.

>>9552381
>the government was elected to make this the land of milk and honey
>yep
>so this must be the land of milk and honey
>no, retard

>>9552391
>We have no reason to think that humans are preordained by any factual conditions to behave in any specific way.
topkek, I see socialists still haven't opened up an evopsych, or anthropology book since time immemorial.

>>9552394
socialist regimes never put """"real socialism"""" into practice because of the human tendency to consolidate power through violence

>>9552391
you are beyond retarded

>>9551780
>provide statistics for a functionally preferable alternative

You won't be able to because western global culture has been erroneously founded on the idea of a nuclear family. We assume children belong to one. They are seen as dysfunctional if they are unable to be adopted into a family. How can anyone succeed as a child without a family if all of our institutions require that someone have the support of a family to be even moderately successful? The family was a mistake. Maybe it was alright in a communal foraging society, but suggesting that the family unit is somehow necessary for human development is shaky.

>>9552406
>still provides no alternative
amazing

>>9552419
>not doing something that would contradict the first sentence of the post
>"amazing"

>>9552174
So the consequence is that if someone takes it from you with force now it's rightfully his

>>9551896
>>Communists don't believe in property or human rights
>>To extend human rights to someone who does not extend those same rights to you is suicide

Am a communist. Human rights are a liberal crock. Human responsibilities are where it's at. Also, I do believe in personal property. I just don't believe anyone should hold resources hostage from the workers that actually make use of them.

>>They believe that the government should own your body and property to do with as it pleases.

Communism is stateless. Find me one Marxian theorist who said that a government should control an individual's body.

Is your Youtube University diploma hanging on your wall or is it in the frame shop at the moment?

>>9552207

You mean Miami gusanos weren't ecstatic that Castro's revolution stopped them from selling peasant's-hand-rolled cigars to bourgeoisie American sex tourists?

>>9552442
>Communism is stateless
show me an example of this that has worked

>>9552251

Maybe they shouldn't have collaborated with Batista against the working class. These people aren't some innocent farmers whose assets were seized by Castro. This wasn't a tropical Holodomor.

Sure some innocent people were probably falsely considered counterrevolutionaries. It's a shitty situation. You have to make a lot of hard decisions when singlehandedly taking on a US backed dictator.

>>9552457
More like property owners who had their "means of production seized", and families of those who were killed in firing squads for decent. But hey you mentioned "peasants" and "bourgeoisie" so you must be so woke.

>>9552441
see
>>9552318
>>9552324

>>9552370
He said the right of property comes as an extension of your ability to defend the territory. Hence if you can't defend it you lose the right.

A simple modus tollens.

P -> Q
Not Q
Hence Not P.

>>9552318

So what problem do have with the things you've already mentioned if your political ideas have no normative component regarding theft? If the party steals your grain and gets away with it, why do you think that's a 'bad' thing?

>>9552464
Worked pretty well in Paris in 1871

>>9552477
/helicopter/

>>9552370

It was a reductio, you clown.

Why should I take any communist seriously, when they ignore the simple fact that people like to have MORE STUFF than is available?

sayge

>>9552489
because that's my shit nigger

>>9552490
>lasts all of 2 months
>worked pretty well

>>9552402
>you are beyond retarded

You have nothing else to say. Give me one reason to believe that humans must behave in one way within the same set of circumstances with full constancy. I thought Communists were supposed to be the naive materialists.

>>9552513
it's not that they must
it's that they tend to

you're ignoring reality, hence beyond retarded

>>9552464

It won't until our ability to produce outgrows our mode of production. The reason the communist meme is beginning to crop up everywhere is because this is starting to happen. Almost every communist will tell you that Leninism was misguided because it goals were anachronistic.

>>9552482

Yeah that's who I'm talking about. That's what counterrevolution is. Should Castro have just trusted Batista supporters to hand over their property?

Also, I'd genuinely like you to provide me with citations about the murdering of families of counterrevolutionaries.

>>9552530
our ability to produce will never outgrow out desire to consume

proof: veblen goods

Automation means either communism or machine rape to the death.

Pick one.

You're not allowed to pick, the machines will win.

damn, i thought most ppl got over their communist phase around age 16-17. y'all niggas still ain't matured into syndicalism?

It never went away. They lost the economic argument so they started focusing on social issues. Now that they're entrenched in our education system they're shifting back to economics.

>>9552519

You are ignoring reality. Do you sincerely believe that humans went from foraging communalism to slave society to feudalism to capitalism and now we're just gonna stay here for the forseeable future. Capitalism cannot last forever given its internal contradictions. The two classes that compose it are necessarily at conflict.

What do humans tend to do that would preclude communalism? Live in cooperating groups? We literally spent 95% of our existence as a species in communalist societies. Capitalism is an aberration while we adjust to explosively progressing technics.

>>9552530
>The reason the communist meme is beginning to crop up everywhere is because this is starting to happen.

Yeah this has been "starting to happen" since the invention of communism. It's funny how it still hasn't materialized.

>>9552549

This is not even wrong. In communism as in capitalism workers consume what we produce. In the former we've just removed those that get in the way of greater consumption.

>>9552549
Most of our needs will be digitised though, we'll enter post-scarcity basically for anything but food and medical care.

>>9552574

What are these internal contradictions of capitalism?

>>9552582

Lay off the science fiction.

>>9552546
They don't exist because the regime didn't record keep the executions. That in itself should tell you everything

>>9552588
We're a species that went from horse buggies to nukes within two generations. Lay off the unwarranted conservatism.

>>9552570
>Now that they're entrenched in our education system they're shifting back to economics.

My dude I said the pledge of allegiance to the United States every day from K-12. The only thing I learned about Marx was that he "invented Communism." My history textbooks got stats from the Victims of Communism Meme-orial Foundation. I grew up thinking that Stalin was worse than Hitler because, according to the Black Book of Communism, every Slav that slipped on a banana peel was personally targeted by Joseph Stalin.

If you're talking about higher education, maybe the simpler explanation to the leftism of the educated is their status as 'the educated'.

>>9552588

Is technology just going to stop advancing?

>>9552442
>Communism is stateless.
Not even Marx himself said that, Marx himself never even defined socialism/communism as anything, but the most hand-wavy bullshit in existence.
> Find me one Marxian theorist who said that a government should control an individual's body.
Marx himself, done. Wow that was hard.

>>9552574
>What do humans tend to do that would preclude communalism
live in large groups that desire to consolidate power

i dare you to defect from a nation and try to start a communalist society in defiance of the legislation of the nation whose soil you are on. Bet you won't even last two months.

>>9552601

Schools don't indoctrinate kids into becomes communists by teaching them about Stalin. They do it by imprinting the idea that it's the governments job to solve every problem.

>>9552600
>>9552605
>implying you can predict the future of technology

>>9552605

When has technology or access to goods ever sated the demand for more?

weak: being a communist and wasting brain cells thinking about shit you will never change
peak: blowing up banks with truck bombs

>>9551351
The only valid answer is sjw's. They showed time after time what a communist society would look like.

>>9552597

That just tells me that they were literally reorganizing the government essentially from scratch.

>>9552621
try to take my shit and I'll reorganize your central nervous system, commie scum

>>9552617
I'm not sure you ever had to do with real people, but most humans around the world are satisfied with having a house, food and booze and entertainment.

Eliminate the need to work and you will eliminate a lot of status competition and the desire to signal it through excessive consumption.

Ever since I got rich and I stopped working I don't fucking care about owning anything beyond the few things I have.

>>9552629
if you'd ever spent any time around niggers or women you'd know this is false.

>what are air jordans
>what are rims
>what are grillz
>what are fancy dresses
>what are mansions
>what are giant fucking diamond rings

>>9552620
Most of them are centrists you dumb asshole.

>>9552629

This is relative. What satisfies you doesn't satisfy society. Horsebread used to satisfy medieval English peasants but with advances in technology I'll have nothing less than Tuna for dinner. Further advances will not change this on a macro level.

>>9552606

>Marx himself, done. Wow that was hard.

Give me the fucking passage. You just said Marx never described communism and yet he had a whole lot to say about how communism 'ought' to control everyone's body. Marx never said communism 'ought' to be anything.

>Not even Marx himself said that

Marx isn't the final authority on anything, but Engels literally coined the term "Withering away of the state."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withering_away_of_the_state

Why are you on /lit/ if you don't want to read anything? What good does it do you to pull shit out of your ass in an internet argument that took me seconds to refute? Admit that you haven't read more than ten pages of Marxist or general socialist literature.

>>9552642
sjwism is literally wealth redistribution away from whites towards colored people
centrist my fucking ass

>>9552600
>>9552605
How do you propose to digitize say shelter or clothing? What about the physical media on which digital information is stored? Certainly this stuff is going to go on being produced by slaves and near-slaves at home and abroad. Even if 30 years from now everyone is plugged into some VR network and spends all day every day fucking anime characters and being fed through a tube, does that really satisfy say the deeper psychological needs of a person? Technology won't save us or bring about some post-scarcity utopia on its own. We need to change our way of thinking and interacting with the world

>>9552650
>We need to change our way of thinking and interacting with the world
protip: the only times in history this has ever happened are as a result of disruptive technology

>>9552640

Ever wondered why those are desires held only by the popular american classes and basically derided by every middle class person around the world?

The us is an alienated country of people that live in the middle of nowhere with no community, no culture, no education, nothing beyond the ability to numb the pain by the dopamine discharge of buying things.

>>9552648
Nigga you dumb

>>9552648
No it's not. SJWism is a vague ideology of controlling language, giving money back to blacks, and making sure that rednecks/racists are punished. Most communists want to improve education so that racists don't exist anymore.
Their entire movement is based around capitalist marketing.
Why did so many of them vote for a right leaning centrist like Hillary Clinton?

>>9552647
>Give me the fucking passage
Gotha Programme, and the DotP, or the communist manifesto in regards to the "bourgeois" family.

I've read more Marx then you have, my autistic friend, and I've read anti-duhring too. It seems like there exists a clear divide between those who understand Marx (me), and those who don't (you).

It's quite fucking hilarious that you bring up Engels "withering away" of the state, yet he never outlines exactly how that's going to happen, and why in fucks name that those who make up the DotP would ever want their power to wither away in the first place. After all, are Marxists not materialists?

>>9552617

Right now. If I am satisfied with the simple life that I have without needing a yacht or a slave, I can easily assume that others are capable of the same. Speaking of slaves, when has access to labor ever sated the demand for slaves? Maybe read the Greeks and you'll find out what happened to that idea. After that it was serfs. Now it's wage laborers. But I'm sure this is the status of human civilization that's just going to stick around until artificial demand for resources fries our planet.

Some of the easiest socialist literature: Manufacturing Consent. Can any of you be arsed to read even these pleb-tier footnotes to actual critiques of capitalism?

>>9552655
stay jelly

>>9552648
Nah sjwism is ideological camouflage of capitalist mechanics through tokenism.
Give the appearance of justice to keep an unjust system.

All of the "i'm with her" sjw are in fact against single payer healthcare, in favor of syrian intervention, pro saudis, and against rising the minimal wage... or any redistributive policy.

They want Obama getting paid by wall street so that they can say "see? the system is ok, america is great again, we deserve our priviledge because we earned it" that's what they are

>>9552663

Can you be arsed to read what I wrote? How you personal live your life is irrelevant to the discussion.

Forget it. I lost interest in talking to you.

>>9552620

Oh yeah I read about all those SJWs in Nicaragua who were slaughtered by US funded Contras.

>>9552627

We don't want your shit you dumbass. If you are a worker we want to give you what's coming to you - a full share in the economic activity that you take part in. Nobody is coming for your body pillow.

>>9552657
>Why did so many of them vote for a right leaning centrist like Hillary Clinton?
because she's a woman and muh patriarchy muh trump said pussy

>>9552665
I live in new york.

>>9552686
nah I prefer supermarkets to breadlines and eating rats

>>9552695
Nah, that's because they are centrist who want to keep their money

>>9552695
Right, so they don't want communism. They want a corporatist whore. You should try having a conversation with these people, and bring up certain ills of capitalism, and you'll see how uncomfortable they become. Most of them were rich kids who just wanted some stupid bitch to pander to them about "social justice" without having to give up anything. They could've voted for Bernie, but a lot of them didn't.

>>9552643

>This is relative. What satisfies you doesn't satisfy society

Every metric of satisfaction is relative. In that case, why ought I to acquiesce to the capitalist idea of material satiation. I happen to think mine is the product of expunging neuroses that force us to consume in order to distract ourselves from material alienation. You can disagree, but so can I. My argument therefore is of equal weight as yours which is why maybe we can talk about the merits of obsessive consumption. I think there are none.

>>9552696
aka not america

>>9552707

Nice question begging. I prefer a psychically adjusted world population over ISIS and squalor in the third world.

>>9552721
If I wanted to live in the middle of nowhere with shitty beer and big car I would move to Latvia... at least the internet connection would be better and the women hotter.

>>9552695

More evidence that you've never had any exposure to communism or really any element of culture that wasn't sieved through layers of obnoxious dead memes.

>>9552713
communism wasn't an option during the last election

and actually, bernie sanders was the most popular candidate among the left and he is an out-and-out socialist. The only reason he didn't get the nomination is because Clinton had been doing shady backdoor shit for decades and basically ran the whole DNC
>you should try having a conversation with these people
bro I live on the west coast, I live in a sea of these stains
If you bring up the """ills of capitalism""" they just virtue signal and go "oh i knowww it's soooo terribleeee"

literature

>>9552726
you prefer to take refuge in unsubstantiated theory and pie-in-the-sky theory rather than face reality

>>9552736
No, communism wasn't an option, but having a social democrat in power would have caused an improvement in education and health care, which could eventually lead to communism.

>>9552743
>which could eventually lead to communism
you HAVE to be trolling

>>9552747
If everyone is well educated, automation takes care of the majority of production, then yes, people would be smart enough to push for communism.

>>9552751
>social democratic policies would lead to communism in the us despite never doing so anywhere else

>>9552743
and I'm telling you that wasn't an option, because Clinton was running the whole fucking show

Bernie won the nomination, Clinton pulled strings and influenced things so that he would pull out and encourage his base to vote for her.

also your wrong about bernie improving things. He would have only indebted us into insolvency

An Cap: "state power never did anything right"

Buddy, state power kept capitalism alive for thousands of years...

>>9552755
You don't even know what sovereign debt is lol

>>9552751
>if if if if if if
solid argument m9 u sound like the bastard child of obama and nostradamus

>>9552754
Here are some policies that worked in the past:
-Taxing the rich
-Public spending
-Forming unions and striking
-Riots in the streets

Here are some policies that didn't work:
-Lowering taxes
-Dismantling governments
-Using war debt to jumpstart the economy
-Deregulating markets

>>9552769
regardless of whether they 'worked' they didn't lead to communism

>>9552775
I think that in the vernacular of the internet communism is not abolition of private property but a state of justice in the Rawlsian sense where everyone contributes to their ability and receive in accordance to their needs

>>9552794
that doesn't change the truth value of >>9552775

>>9552799
No it doesn't, I'm just saying that its the wrong question to concentrate on the bottom line ("when it has ever happened") instead of seeing that we have an understanding of practices and policies that have consistently led to increases in general welfare are rejected and impeded by a bunch of powerful interest groups.

Who cares if communism ever happened, I don't even want it, but in the meanwhile let's install singlepayer which works well everywhere.

>>9552821
>>it might lead to communism
>no it won't
>>the question isn't whether it will lead to communism

>>9552838
I'm not the same anon that said it might lead to communism

Sorry for not specifying first. I was just at odds with the direction of the conversation.

>>9552324

>therefore if porky takes your property or life by force it is rightfully taken

is the point where I stop listening to porky and garrote him/her with the rope he/she sold me.

>>9552821
>lets install singlepayer
how about no
the united states has the highest standard of medical care in the world

when wealthy folks in countries with singlepayer need surgery and don't feel like waiting for 6 months on a NHS list, they fly to the US

the US system provides better access to care for people of all economic stripe for both minor and major medical needs than single payer systems.

Not to mention the vulnerability of single-payer gov't controlled systems wrt hacking; see the recent NHS ransomware attack on the UK (which happened because the gov't is too paralyzed by bureaucracy to actually update its OS lol)

>>9552868
this is why i said you dont debate communists, you physically remove them

>>9551389
maybe you're just retarded, and that's fine, but in case you're not, please don't mistake McCarthy for anything like a hero.

The problem of communism in the US was that it was one of the only impermissible ideologies. People like McCarthy prevented communists from organizing through legislation like CCA that stripped communists of citizenship, took passports and banned organizing.

I don't have to tell you, /pol/, that something you're not allowed to think is incredibly enticing to think. Especially to young folks. Predictably, the young people today, 15-30, have almost no recollection of even the aftermath of the Soviet Union. And because Communism was never allowed in the public discourse, there's no representation of it in US civic life, it feels to the youth like something they can find a voice in.

The rise of communism in today's America is exactly as predictable as the resurgence of rightwing racialist ideology. Any time an idea is repressed, it finds purchase in the new generation.

>>9552610

>i dare you to defect from a nation and try to start a communalist society in defiance of the legislation of the nation whose soil you are on. Bet you won't even last two months.

So the fact that capitalist power would kill me for revolution is argument for what? We both understand the status quo. What we're arguing about is whether it is determined by a "human nature."

>live in large groups that desire to consolidate power

Do the groups desire to consolidate power or is it individuals in a group? In the first case would it not make sense for the working class to consolidate their own power? If the second, explain the transition from fiefs and monarchies to republics.

>>9552695
>>9552736


just admit you're retarded and go back to frogposting

>>9552870
>wealthy folks
don't deserve better healthcare than others
>the US system provides better access to care for people of all economic stripe for both minor and major medical needs than single payer systems
citation welcome

>>9552612

>They do it by imprinting the idea that it's the governments job to solve every problem.

Good lord. Communism has invaded our schools but somehow weren't able to teach you actual idiots what communism even is. Where did you read that communism is government control of everything. Was it it high school? Are you one of those people that blievve that "big government liberals" are socialists? Capitalism thrives when the workers depend on the state. The state is what enforces the ruling-class control of private property. Communism is anti-state.

Question for myself: Why am I arguing with a fourteen year old who believes fox news talking points?

>>9552629
>>9552655
wrong. can you not be so wrong, please?

>>9552885
>So the fact that capitalist power would kill me for revolution is argument for what
it's a demonstration of the tendencies of human nature

>>9552662
>Gotha Programme, and the DotP, or the communist manifesto in regards to the "bourgeois" family.

What specific passage from either?

>After all, are Marxists not materialists?

Okay wait. How would you define "materialism" in the context of this discussion?

>>9552870
If by highest standards you mean a middling one and the highest levels of expenses compared to the actual service you get.

Also the us has a third world pregnancy mortality rate lol.

>>9552907
if you think a state will ever voluntarily 'wither away' you are beyond stupid
"stateless communism" is a carrot dangled before naive idealists as a pretext for a political elite to seize power

>>9552920

How is a certain human behavior evidence of any essential driving force behind that behavior. Also, respond to what else I wrote. Do individuals or groups of individuals have it in their 'nature' to consolidate power? Is that consolidated power of the individual or the collective?

>>9552930

>if you think a state will ever voluntarily 'wither away' you are beyond stupid

And why is that. Humans lived without a state for literally near 100% of our species's existence. Your pithy insult sure shook me to my ideological core.

>>9552930
Well the Marxist definition of a state is an apparatus that allows one class to dominate another so once class ceases to exist so will the state.

>>9552380
Tell me more about the beauty of the libertarian free market anon :^)

>>9552870
I'm not a communist, but I don't get this viewpoint on singlepayer. Aside from the points in your post where you confuse the NHS with singlepayer, I just think you're arguing against most people's best interest. Singlepayer doesn't mean the hospitals themselves stop being privately owned, or the doctors work for any branch of the government. It just creates a national insurance policy that everyone subscribes to through taxes.

There are many, many things for which a market system is the best way of allocating resources. That doesn't mean every problem we face needs to be solved with that same, core tool. Something like the Military is by definition not able to be solved through anything like a "marketplace of militaries". It would undercut the very nature and value of the military.

The class of problems which aren't handled well by markets are usually existential. The reason, obviously, is money loses meaning in the face of death. What would you pay to keep your Dad alive another week? What if it's not *really* your money, but an HMO's money, or even something you'll just get as a bill later to negotiate with the hospital over. Healthcare pricing will never function efficiently. We're not haggling over pork belly futures, it's scared patients unable to think clearly, having assets extracted from them to the tune of 22% of the US's yearly GDP.

So... when communism wins, who gets to use this and why?

>>9552943
>And why is that. Humans lived without a state for literally near 100% of our species's existence.
we also lived near 100% of our species existence without guns, but you can't uninvent guns and stop gun crime, just like you can't uninvent government and stop the abuses of the state.

any "stateless society" will be crushed by any society which elects to have an organized state, and that state will take the stateless society's resources for their own.

>>9552939
you don't need to understand "essential driving forces behind behavior" to talk about human nature. If you're getting hung up on the verbiage then pretend I never said "nature" and replace it all with "human tendencies"

the rest of what you wrote was irrelevant bullshit

>>9552943
You are an absolute retard if you think that there hasn't been a power structure in place for all of humanities existence. Local warlords 10,000 years ago, chieftan 20,000 years ago, alpha male 500,000 years ago. All of these are forms of control and forms of state, even if on a smaller scale.

>>9552989
organization/governance =/= a state

>>9552967

Politburo members.

>>9552967
Depends on what you mean by communism

The realest answer in terms of historical communism is that it would get turned into a public, non-residential building. The autocratic/bureaucratic classes in communist societies through history have had easier, richer lives than the non-bureaucratic classes, but something like that place, a purely private pleasure palace, never really existed for most of the Soviet leaders.

Stalin, of course, had Kuntsevo Dacha, which is pretty, and big. But it was meant to host foreign delegations and be the site for large meetings.

If you look at a true vacation home like Mysra dacha, it looks like a suburban dump, a home for a dentist in a boring midwestern suburb.

Simply put, Communists would likely take existing palaces and mansions such as those and loot them, burn some, turn the rest into boring museums or barracks, then build poor imitations: dumpier mansions for their bureaucratic elite to live in.
In a more idealistic conception, perhaps mansions like that would go the way of those big, empty london mansions that people squatted. People would actually live in them, so a 20 bedroom mansion would actually have 20 residents instead of two owners who visit twice a year and a full time staff that lives offsite.

>>9552998
>alpha male 500,000 years ago

>>9552998

We just need all be set on the right goal and ideas and then kill those who don't, it is for the greater good.

>>9552925
>The bourgeois family will vanish as a matter of course when its complement vanishes, and both will vanish with the vanishing of capital.
>Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.
right from the 2nd chapter of the communist manifesto.
>Okay wait. How would you define "materialism" in the context of this discussion?
as Marx had outlined it, which he realized with the writing of the German Ideology, that communism has no actual basis in present reality, it's a mere illusion that people chase. The withering away of the state is pure idealism at its core, and its completely stripped of any attempt at trying to analyze the class antagonisms that would arise from those in charge of the institutions of the state, and those who aren't. Lenin idealistically said that those in the vanguard would've been removed and called forth by the masses will (see how well that turned out for the SU).

I can't see any future for Socialism, or leftism of any kind so long as it hangs onto the spectre's of Marxism and 20th century thought.

>>9552601
Communists have always tried to masquerade as patriots. Just listen to old Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie music.

>>9551378
So if you would see a conversation were the expressions "ethnic cleansing", "cultural marxist" and "kike" are used, you wouldn't assume they're nazis?

>>9551351
>Is it because people lack an education in political philosophy? Or is it more an obliviousness to economics?

Both. Also, decades of propaganda.

Why is this still up it's not even pretending to be about literature.

>>9551906
Elitism? From a communist? How is that even possible! O my gaaawd

>>9552142
Yes, I mean, people who think private propriety should Be are such monsters. They think they can have something for their own, I mean, of course all people they ever knew left them.

Get off your pc, autismo

>>9552650
Why cares about fleshcucks being comfy you cuck