/lit/ - Literature

By reading the Quran. Why did you even ask this?

>>9440274
Which translation do I start with?

The Quran.

I just started it last week, it's extremely beautiful, and touching in a way that Christian theology has never touched me.

I've been using a podcast version, which is nice because it has the Arabic reading then the English reading of each verse.

The focus on pure submission to God is a welcome relief from the protestant moralizing and catholic theologizing that chokes the spirit from the west.

>>9440415
You need to focus on the classical Arabic, because those are literally the words of God in Islam, while all translations are a corruption of his words. Get an audio version so you can here the same words spoken to Muhammad by Gabriel in his cave.

>>9440437
Which podcast? My Arabic is non-existent.

HERE

>>9440478
>Catholicism doesn’t work, that’s because it’s already run its course, it seems to belong to the past, it has defeated itself. Islam is an image of the future.

>>9440437
>focus on pure submission to God
agree with this, but be wary that the simplicity of a religious system isn't necessarily indicative of its quality... you can imagine that this very simplicity is why protestants are so fucking lame these days with Burgerland Theology

check out Eastern Orthodoxy for god-tier Christianity without all the added-on bullshit that no one really believes

but if you insist on Islam, check out the Sufi mystics... mysticism is the most appealing part of all traditions, for me at least

>>9440537
Protestants aren't lame because of simplicity but because of lack of structure.

Protestant kids can't do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKDZKUD1TBQ

>>9440250
if you think Islam has any answers or some secret purity of truth compared to Christianity you're delusional and consumed by propaganda

look outside of the Abrahamic faiths if you want some real insight.
Islam is slavish as hell and a mess

>>9440540
unironically posting this. unironically being an autistic aesthetician. we're done. we're over.

>>9440537
oh, and also check out the perennial philosophy cucks. their stuff is far from orthodox islam, but it might be a nice intro from a western perspective

frithjof schuon is a start

>>9440540
>Protestant kids can't do this:
plenty of proddies can recite scripture

Islam is the ultimate slave mentality

I can only imagine Westerners who unironically wish to convert to Islam as massive weenies

how else can they not see the massive irony in this? and the clear bullshit being peddled by these Imams
read the Bhagavad Gita

>>9440554
seconded

it's appealing not to have to think or worry, and I even think there's truth and value in the message of submission (especially in our culture of self-obsession and hubris), but it's important to realize that releasing cares and shifting them are two different things

t. agnostifag who was drawn by islam for a bit before accidentally redpilling myself

>>9440572
>t. agnostifag who was drawn by islam for a bit before accidentally redpilling myself

Dear god, what is happening to our youth?

>>9440572
I just find it hard to completely set aside everything I know and believe to submit to their god.
compare this to Brahmanism or Buddhism especially, it is so dry and mind numbing in comparison. even worse since Islam functions as a cult.

>>9440551
Except that's an extremely patrician stand to take, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

>>9440537
I'm not talking about simplicity per se, but protestants always strike me as guilt ridden in some way, and painfully self conscious. Catholicism is very agreeable on a societal level (I've never been to a Catholic country that didn't have a markedly higher quality of life, despite the material considerations protestant countries obsess over), and aesthetic as hell, but their theology ranges from insightful to pure masturbation.

With the Quran, every verse is the words of God, full of depth, but without needless pretension. From a purely pragmatic standpoint I've never met a Muslim that wasn't a thoroughly decent person (although I've only ever known upper class Muslims). Catholicism as well seems to produce very good results for society, while burger protestantism mostly seems to produce neurosis.

>>9440587
>>9440572
The thing I found interesting about their submission theology is that it doesn't ask you to believe in Allah, only to submit to his doctrine (which is mainly a set of instructions on how to be a decent and upstanding human being/member of society), and wait for the belief to come.

For someone who's been told for years by all kinds of preachers to "let Jesus into your heart and he'll forgive you for being a worthless degenerate", this is extremely refreshing.

Quran recitals are the equivalent of reciting communist slogans. Say no to brainwashing kids.

>>9440597
>"let Jesus into your heart and he'll forgive you for being a worthless degenerate"

You need to get better preachers cause that's not how the Gospel should be interpreted.

>>9440589
Holy shit

>>9440603
Yes it is. Go back to /pol/.

>>9440579
there is a massive amount of pro-Islam propaganda out there along with anti-Christian rhetoric.

christianity is decidedly "uncool" and not only that is treated with hostility and contempt in much of the West.
I don't think people should just be Christian because they were born into it, but this is a definite trend which is creating a lot of aimless atheists, or slacktheists.

now Islam is shown in the media as being strong, proud, traditional, and most of all vibrant especially compared to the stereotype of the deprecated old Christian. this media presentation combined with very active propaganda efforts by Muslims both online and in real life; for example my university has a permanent "Islam awareness" booth set up in the centre of the main concourse where they evangelize every day. beyond that there is an entire Islam appreciation week and load of other sketchy shit.

now when you have these weak willed aimless people being presented this cultivated image of Islam it is naturally attractive. this is the danger as once you're in you can't leave easily.


what is hidden under all of this however is the rotting foundations of the entire faith, dispute the "vibrant" look about it, Islam is collapsing, the sects are fragmenting and there is massive. very bloody infighting as there is zero agreement anymore on who is a "true Muslim"
Islam is breaking down, and since its entire existence relies on the entity of the "Islamic state" (not ISIS but the general idea of an Islamic nation) but even these nations are in complete turmoil.
the rise of Islamism is the internal recognition of this complete breakdown in the faith and an attempt to rectify it, by force.

I can only see Islam spiralling more and more out of control in the future, as of today they are a hostile cancerous entity in every single nation on earth where they exist as a minority, and in their majority states too.

only through a possible return to strong peaceful authoritarian rule willing to mandate what is and is not Islam; like a new Sultanate, could this spiral be stopped.

>>9440617
Islam right now is like Catholicism with the entire church hierarchy dismantled.

Was this guy wrong in abolishing the Caliphate?

May I suggest something? You clearly are fond of "western society", or whatever it once was. Instead of adopting a completely foreign worldview, why not think and try to create something, from within, to overcome the current western state of affairs. Isn't it ultimately irresponsible escapism to turn your back and hope someone from outside can save you?

>>9440663
I personally think he was
Ataturk was awful for both Turkey and Islam.

but Turkey hat lost a lot of legitimacy as "caliphate" anyway
me saying "Islam" is a bit inaccurate
compare Sunni Islam to the far more stable Shia who do have a strong orderly state and clear hierarchy in place.

>>9440589
Wow, you're a complete mess.

The bible is also regarded as the word of God. The stuff you said about there being no Catholic countries without a "higher quality of life" (than where?) and having met no Muslims who weren't "thoroughly decent " is just anecdotal bullshit and I wonder why you posted it.

>>9440663
He did it because he could. Caliph didn't have any influence anyway.

>>9440250
Save us from what? You are even more pathetic than people who are theists because they were born into it. You are the imbicile who chooses to believe in theism because he can't live life without being lead.

>>9440589
Do you legitimately think that the truth of a religion id be based on whether you enjoy spending time in that country or with its members?

Going by that warped logic Mormonism would have a high stake in the truth department

>>9440589
>but protestants always strike me as guilt ridden in some way, and painfully self conscious

Orthodoxy is effectively guilt the religion (not that that should have a bearing on whether it is true or not)

No thanks.

>>9440736
>The bible is also regarded as the word of God.
Not at all in the same way as the Quran. The Gospels are all written by men. The Quran is literally considered to be the word of God handed down by the angel Gabriel to Muhammad.

>The stuff you said about there being no Catholic countries without a "higher quality of life" (than where?)
Than protestant countries. I've lived in America, Canada, France, and South America and from this I've observed the general cultural attitude towards life benefits hugely from having a strong Catholic presence. More acceptance of leisure as a legitimate activity, without all the dread, guilt, and moral judgement of protestant culture.

>and having met no Muslims who weren't "thoroughly decent " is just anecdotal bullshit and I wonder why you posted it.

Because I've befriended a decent amount of Muslims from all over, and moreover, why would I ignore my own personal experience when making decisions in my life? Would you feel better if I posted a mathematical looking graph with a sample size smaller than the Muslims I've met? That's a very protestant way of thinking, I bet you're an Amerifat too.

Fucking brainlets

>>9440679
different person, but if your goal is to overcome Western nihilism and degeneracy, there is no alternative to religious revival and enforcement of religious social norms by a strong state, imo. some form of social control with transcendent justification is needed. the vast majority of people are so stupid that they need to be guided with religious morals and a firm hand. if they're allowed to entertain liberal ideas they will self-destruct.

>>9440829
>without all the dread, guilt, and moral judgement of protestant culture.
What do you mean by this? Catholicism states that humans are inherently sinful, whereas salvation is guaranteed in Protestantism simply by believing in Christ.

>>9440829
You're fucking nuts.

>>9440820
>Do you legitimately think that the truth of a religion id be based on whether you enjoy spending time in that country or with its members?

No, but from a purely pragmatic standpoint a good way to gauge a religion is by observing its effects on society.

Unless you're one of those "spiritual but not religious" pseudo-materialist douchbags

>>9440881
I think this won't tell you the whole story. For instance, the issues in Islamic society don't prove that Islam is bad. The reality is that the Arabs are by and large a backwards, genetically unintelligent group who won't create much in the way of civilization, regardless of their faith, the Africans even more so.

>>9440829
>"there is a catholic/protestant/muslim cultural attitude"
i.e.,
>"there is an actually existing group of hiveminds and mine is the best"
Never, ever post again.

>>9440829

>Because I've befriended a decent amount of Muslims from all over, and moreover, why would I ignore my own personal experience when making decisions in my life? Would you feel better if I posted a mathematical looking graph with a sample size smaller than the Muslims I've met? That's a very protestant way of thinking, I bet you're an Amerifat too.

HAHA right? STEMfags BTFO.

>>9440849
Exactly. Sin ceases to become a moral struggle when it's excepted as a reality, and people in Catholic countries tend to be more accepting of their own human faults and limitations.

Protestants always seem to be more worried about working hard and doing the right thing, about understanding rather than obeying, and about believing without any recourse for the doubter.

The obsession with sin and transgression also lends itself to greater eroticism. Without clear moral lines to transgress, sinning becomes a bland object of despair, and even the most degenerate sexual experiences become nothing but mechanical masturbation.

Also the emphasis on ritual in Catholicism and Submission in Islam help negotiate the problem of faith, so you can have atheist or agnostic Muslims and Catholics. This doesn't seem to work so well with Protestants.

>>9440898
>cultures don't exist and the metaphysical foundations of society don't have any effect on it, I'm so fucking smart lmao

I'm not even from a Catholic country, I'm just posting the conclusions I've made from years of observations.
But from the way you talk, you probably speak one language and I doubt you've ever left your hometown.

>>9440895
This is very true, and it's hard to separate religion from the general culture. That being said, there are many clear differences between the Catholic and Protestant conceptions of life, which can't be ignored.

>>9440903
There's a difference between actual science and being so stupid that you can't form your own opinion but trust anything presented to you in the form of a pie chart. A couple hundred personal anecdotes are a much richer source of information that a couple hundred people filling in a questionnaire, and if you can't understand that then I seriously doubt your IQ is in the triple digits.

>>9440688
>Ataturk was awful for both Turkey and Islam.

There was no Turkey before Ataturk since Ataturk create Turkey, how can he be awful for Turkey? Without him the Sevr agreement wouldn't be canceled and there would be a very small ottoman state with no friends on borders. Which would be invaded by USSR like armenia did, instantly.

>>9440956
Are we supposed to believe that you have "a couple hundred personal anecdotes"?
If your idea of science is "a couple hundred people filling out questionnaires" you are simply wrong.

>>9441044
Everyone I've ever met has been of one sort of religious bend or another, so I don't see why that's such a shocking idea.

Do you not understand the difference between actual science and scientism? It's impossible to even apply scientific techniques to the social sciences, so your complaining about anecdotes is pretty retarded, because that's really all anyone has to go off of.

>>9440250
>Western society is lost to nihilism and degeneracy
Western society isn't, you just are.

>>9441076
shut up nigger

>>9440956
>I'm not even from a Catholic country, I'm just posting the conclusions I've made from years of observations.

They're obviously biased observations since you admit you've only interacted with upper class folk. You're just seeing things you wish to see.

>>9441089
If I was a nigger I wouldn't think that you're a retarded degenerate. I'd be one myself.

>>9441106
Upper class Muslims you tard, and even then they weren't all upper class, just most of them.

I've known all socio-economic classes of catholics, protestants, and atheists, and in my experience catholic countries (that is, countries where Catholicism is the dominate religion and influences the public sphere) tend to be much nicer places to live than Protestant ones, regardless of material concerns.

>>9440250
NASA would not exist anymore if the western societies had fallen to nihilism.

Degeneracy? Yes i can completely get behind that.

But not nihilism.

I am on the verge of praying to God himself to curse every single poster in this thread.

Holy Mother Mary, this thread has me worked up. I am on the verge of spitting fire.

>>9441127
If you liked the book, you'll love the sequel brother.

>>9441134
I think Muhammad was listening to some sort of demon or wayward fairy spirit. Islam is not of God, it was inspired by demonic forces, and all "good" Muslims these days are good in spite of the strongest elements of their religion.

>>9441122
You're just a schizo making shit up.

>>9441064
not that guy, just felt I'd point out that personal anecdotes tend to be less reliable simply because your own circumstances tend to give a skew to the data, which is why good surveys are done with very careful sampling if they are to be trusted. You admitted (assuming you're the same guy) that the muslims you met were high class, which is a huge misrepresentation of reality. Higher class people tend to have more education, bigger social circles and more time to contemplate life. You can't compare high class muslims with low class protestants and expect to get any sort of truth.

>>9441226

For a guy who claimed to have traveled and lived all over the world and interacted with many people, he sounds like a fucking teenager.

join ISIS

>All these buttblasted protestants

>>9441226
So how could someone possibly do an unbiased survey to measure all the subtle ways religion effects both someone's personal subjective experience and conception of reality, as well as the fabric of society at large?

The best option is therefore personal experimentation with different religions, or failing that, careful psychoanalytic observation of a handful of people

You said
>I've never met a Muslim that wasn't a thoroughly decent person

then
>Everyone I've ever met has been of one sort of religious bend or another,

Are you saying that you have a thorough understanding of the character of every single person you've met?

Even if you did, it doesn't matter, because that would simply be your subjective analysis of your own environment. It may be helpful to you to navigate your own world but not reliable to for anyone else.

>>9441277
Not at all, but every Muslim I've ever had the opportunity to get to know on an intimate level has struck me as fairly upstanding. Why would I not draw some conclusions from that? Especially when many of the virtues I admire in them are those same ones espoused in the Quran?

>Even if you did, it doesn't matter, because that would simply be your subjective analysis of your own environment. It may be helpful to you to navigate your own world but not reliable to for anyone else.
And why should it be? I'm a thoroughly selfish person, and only concern myself with my own life. There's no objective way to quantify what's being discussed anyways (the effects of religion of someone's character), so anecdotal evidence is all that's available. It seems silly to criticize something for being anecdotal when that sort of information can't exist in any other form.

Bad thread, Islam is a primitive and violent religion. Christianity is vastly extended by theology because we aren't all brainlets satisfied by "I am God" written on a scroll.

>>9441307
wow you're so edgy
now get back to >>>/pol/

>>9441307
>God had his son which was actually him so he let himself be crucified then doubted his existence before he died, but begged himself to forgive the people crucifying him, and also there's the Holy Spirit which makes three Gods wrapped into one, which is why when you eat bread its actually the body of Christ and when you drink wine its really his blood.

>>9440250

Not /lit/.

Sage and report

>>9441332
>God sent a bunch of prophets but their message got corrupted so hundreds of years later he sends a messiah to clear things up but his message gets corrupted too so hundreds of years later he sends another prophet who is also the last prophet ever and is 100% true so never question anything. Also he was a guy who lived in a trading town in a bumfuck nowhere desert for some reason. Also his successors need to conquer everyone else and make a huge empire and tax all the non-believers so they become super rich. Also the religion split over who was the correct successor, good job making things clear God. Also you need to follow the sunnah but we don't know which hadith are reliable so you're basically fucked.

>>9441359
>Man is fallible so God has to step in every once in a while and set them on the right track

What a crazy concept

>>9440589
Where the fuck do you meat your Muslims? Go go a place in a western city with a Muslim majority and stay there for a week, talking to people, you'll change

>>9440597
Why do you hate homos and Hindus so much?

>le terrorist religion

>>9440250
>islam will save western society
It's a shit-tier religion that goes against everything that makes western civilisation so great- freedom of thought, culture, expression- just ask badawi ffs Religion should only belong in art. In the modern world it only serves to stagnate progress- look at any middle eastern country. Unlike Christianity, Islam has yet to mature into moderation with obvious effects. Yes I have met many muslims who are genuinely good people- hell some of them are even good friends of mine- but they are moderate individuals who live in wilful ignorance of the fact that they constantly violate most of their holy "guidelines". Also read the Quran and if you have any measure of critical thinking or at the very least- decency, then it should tell you all you need to know.

>>9441802
Freedom of thought, culture, and expression are the problem. These freedoms have only caused a convergence to a degenerate consensus where we aren't actually allowed to freely express ourselves anyway. It is preferable to have freedom of expression controlled by a somewhat intellectual form of religion, that will allow the intellectual elite to flourish while shepherding the masses. The masses, in general, should not have freedom of thought, expression, and culture.

>>9441974
>western society is lost
>western society was the problem

go back to /pol/ famb

>>9441998
In the past, Western society had much more restrictive social norms due to a religious consensus. This would be an improvement.

>>9440250
OP do you like MOABs?

>>9440250
I think you are wrong but if you want to learn about Islam from a Western perspective I suggest you look up traditionalist philosopher and Islamic scholar Tim Winter.

>>9440478
>>9440495
>it's old and therefore worthless
This attitude is what is wrong with our contemporary society.

Our post-enlightenment civilization is built on a primitive belief in science and progress towards universality.

>>9442077
Why would I need more westernization of Islam?

Unbelieveable.

It's Islam it's not the only non western religion, you have alternatives.

>First Prayer to the Maker

Cause of being, Viracocha,
God always present,
Judge that in all is,
God who governs and provides,
What he believes by saying:
'' Be it man, be a woman, ''
Live free and in peace
The being that you put
And you created.
Where are you? Outside,
Or inside, in the cloud
Or in the shade?
Listen to me, answer me.
Make her live many days,
Up to the age when
Gray.
Then lift me up
Take me in your arms
And if I get tired, help me.
Wherever you are, Father Viracocha

>>9440250
I'm thinking about starting a website that gives life guidelines to gamers that have given up on real life. I hope to convince people the importance of overcoming nihilism and negative thinking through video game metaphors. It'll probably crash and burn but who knows.

Islam sounds nice but I doubt it will ever catch on in America. I'm waiting for some guy to write a sort of universe simulation theory based religion, that'd spread like wildfire if done right.

Nearly everyone in this thread is wrong, including OP.

Protestants are wrong the same way Islam is wrong. They are a local culture's fanfiction based in a fundamental misunderstanding of the original canon. The work ethic ingrained in Protestant doctrine creates neurosis, and the submission to the laws of Islam creates savagery. This is not ALWAYS true, only in cases of the uninitiated / ignorant. So nearly all cases.

The hilarious thing is they all say the same thing, but are just tailored to pull different emotional strings. And the theologizing of centuries of autists trying to twist faith into science, of course. Obey the law. Acknowledge God. Keep this faith, and be prosperous.

OP, Islam is fine if that's what speaks to you and moves your soul. But it has unresolved social issues that make supporting it an unethical choice, just as Catholicism does, or Protestantism, or Mormons, or those tiger monks who abuse animals for tourist money. Humans are shit. Don't be shit. Listen to God. Fuck adopting the mistakes of others.

Pic is Pope John Paul II praying for everyone in this thread.

>>9442142
>being this desperate for the certitude of science in one's faith

Have you ever experienced ANY religious feeling?

>>9442165
Yes, the catholic church has never changed and is literally the same as when Paul was preaching

Oh wait it's not

All religions are living things, attitudes change, practices change, interpretations change. Religions are part of society and there's always back and fortb, each influencing the other. A big example is the Catholic church saying Jews still have a covenant with God and don't need to be converted. It's no coincidence this innovation appeared at a time when the church was trying to modernise and the holocaust had made remnants of historical anti-jewish practices culturally unacceptable. It's a 180 from what the church taught before.

>>9442077
at least you can see the law of large numbers in practice unlike your invisible skyfairy

>>9441974
Islam isn't intellectual in any sense. For example, pork is forbidden. Art isn't allowed. How can Islam be intellectual when it has retarded beliefs that go against science? Speaking of science, Islamic countries never made any noteworthy contributions to science in modern times. How can you, when your freedom of expression is suppressed?

The intellectual elite is already ruling the masses. If you're dumb, you won't have much independent thought and expression anyway. You tend to follow whatever's popular.

>>9440563
t. pagan larper

>>9440468
then learn it.

>>9442980
>Islam isn't intellectual in any sense.
Islam created the first university in the world, and there are still tons of Islamic universities. Islam was founded on intellectualism
>For example, pork is forbidden.
it's also forbidden by the Bible, Christians just don't care. and pork is unhealthy and can give you all kinds of diseases, so Muslims are pretty smart to avoid it
>Art isn't allowed.
??? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_art
>How can Islam be intellectual when it has retarded beliefs that go against science?
It's more scientific than any other religion http://scienceislam.com/muslims_science.php
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/feb/01/islamic-science
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-considine/overcoming-historical-amnesia_b_4135868.html
Christians are the unscientific ones
>Speaking of science, Islamic countries never made any noteworthy contributions to science in modern times.
Without Islam science wouldn't even exist, you fucking moron
>How can you, when your freedom of expression is suppressed?
lmao, you're literally making the >'muh freeze peach' argument unironically? please explain how blasphemy being restricted prevents science? (it doesn't). blasphemy is also forbidden in Christianity btw, hmm isn't that restricting free speech?
>The intellectual elite is already ruling the masses. If you're dumb, you won't have much independent thought and expression anyway. You tend to follow whatever's popular.
wow you're so smart, I'm proud of you :) i bet your online IQ test scores are super high! everyone else is just inferior in their intellect! :)

>>9440615
It's not. Only in some American (((churches))).

>>9440563
jesus anon the bhagavad gita is long as fuck why would you curse a fellow autist like that

>>9440615
PSA is bullshit peddled exclusively by proddies

>>9443602
That's not the updated version of that cool, very scientific graph.

>>9443602
>it's also forbidden by the Bible, Christians just don't care. and pork is unhealthy and can give you all kinds of diseases, so Muslims are pretty smart to avoid it

It's not even an issue now because of modern science, but Muslims don't care about science.

>Without Islam science wouldn't even exist, you fucking moron

They just stole all of their ideas from the other cultures. Islam is inherently anti-scientific because Muslims refuse to change their views despite of evidence.

> please explain how blasphemy being restricted prevents science? (it doesn't). blasphemy is also forbidden in Christianity btw, hmm isn't that restricting free speech?

Western nations are more advanced. If you think Islam didn't suppress scientific progress, you're just delusional.

>wow you're so smart, I'm proud of you :) i bet your online IQ test scores are super high! everyone else is just inferior in their intellect! :)

I never made any claims about myself, retard. You're one who first mentioned about intellectuals ruling the masses.

>>9441364
>this post isn't ironic

you can learn about it after we push them out of europe, mhkay

>>9443602
fucking kek dude re-evaluate your life, you sound like a high schooler

Muhammad is one of the most obvious false prophets in history.

The Book of Genesis describes his forefather (and by extension him) as a "wild ass of a man".

>>9443687
He did some good but his moral compass is definitely not acceptable among modern westerners

>>9440589
>From a purely pragmatic standpoint I've never met a Muslim that wasn't a thoroughly decent person (although I've only ever known upper class Muslims).

An old lady I know who grew up around Muslims said that they are nice to your face and then stab you in the back.

>>9443704
His moral compass is not acceptable to God, or to any good man ancient or modern.

>>9443669
>Muslims don't care about science.
wrong and delusional
>They just stole all of their ideas from the other cultures. Islam is inherently anti-scientific
again, you're wrong, and delusional.
>Western nations are more advanced.
that's not because of religion. maybe being bombed by the west constantly has something to do with it?
>I never made any claims about myself, retard. You're one who first mentioned about intellectuals ruling the masses.
I'm not the person you were replying to lmao

>>9443723
>I'm not the person you were replying to lmao

It doesn't matter, you're just as retarded as that person.

>tfw you are a muslim but the ahadith are batshit insane and the cause of most of the problems in islam so you decide to become a quranist and ignore the sunnah but then you realize that muhammad (saw) told his followers to follow his example so then you decide to look into the sunnah and then you realize it is different depending on if you are sunni or shia and then you realize that those are just the two most general divisions in the religion that none of them trust the validity of the ahadith attributed to the other side

this is a clusterfuck bros

ITT babby's first existential crisis coupled with state of the art teenage contrarianism adapted to our times gets you to unironically embrace/consider Islam.

Just five years ago I would have discarded any prediction tangential to what's going on now faster than a Mickey D's employee disposes of her used tampon during her lunch break.

Dear god, what is happening to our youth, we're actually doomed.

>>9440250
Read the gurus and go Sikh

>>9443756
mmm, how subversive

>>9443748
Islam is presented as being some monolith but it's a real mess when you start looking into it. No wonder most muslims just go with what their favorite scholar says.

>>9443765
it is as much a mess as any other church honestly, and quranic arabic is not exactly the most clear either, thats why you get extremely esoteric shit like scholars who felt there multiple layers of understanding of the book, and only elite spiritual individuals were capable of reaching the deepest meanings

>>9443754
yeah what's your alternate plan friendo?
western civilization isn't working

>>9440250
y'all aren't going east enough. what you really need is to cultivate yourselves and follow the way.

>>9443805
western philosophy teaches the exact same shit. be more specific

>>9443790
your "plan" to "save" western culture is to convert to islam, thus destroying western culture?

what the fuck is the matter with you? no society has ever produced this much material wealth for so many people. even if it is degenerate as fuck id rather be able to become a dickgirl than not.

>The one Abrahamic religion whose scriptures are actually considered to be the speech of god
>Not his word, imparted through revelation, but his actual speech, word for word
>Couple this with Muhammad's historical context, the normative ethics that surrounded it, his inseparable warrior, statesman, nation builder identities
>Fundamentalism and Islamism are virtually indestructible due to these two particularities of the scripture, as moderates can always be accused of corrupting the speech of god - if god wanted to impart a more nuanced descriptive framework he would've laid it out differently from the prescriptive nature of the Quran.
>Moderates can barely face literalists and Islamists and if they do gain traction, there is so much infighting and disagreement due to the exact same reason

So yes, there is such a thing as Islamic Exceptionalism. It is the most prescriptive, morally corrupt, intellectually dishonest and repugnant Abrahamic doctrine known to man kind.

>>9443790
I don't know young man, I'm happy to not reflect the crisis around me, even though some of it is reflected onto me. I don't know, but christ, have some dignity.

>>9443816
maybe a little book called the analects?

>>9443821
Not wrong, but wew lad

>>9443868
Nobody here understands Islam

But Islam is pretty shit in most jncarnations

obligatory memeposting

>>9443834
>analects
not applicable to a western mind or community. stop derailing islam thread with your flim flam, white man manbun religion.

>>9443901
Where's the part about setting up orphanages and public kitchens?

>>9443917
this has to be bait

>>9443832
>>9443834

congrats on being condescending

>>9443818
>your "plan" to "save" western culture
i have no intention to save something that isn't working. westernfags are the equivalent of the amish. they aren't the future, but i have nothing but respect for them if they don't pretend to be anything more than they are!
>id rather be able to become a dickgirl than not
i suppose it's all a matter of taste isn't it, once morals fall apart

>>9443632
The Bhagavad Gita isn't even a whole book you idiot it's just a part of the Mahabharata.

Why are people so fucking butthurt that they're considering Islam nowadays?

>>9444554
They're accepting /pol/-tier arguments about degeneracy and western decline for emotive reasons. This kind of narrative always has proponents because it's a seductive idea to reduce all society's problems down to a moral decline without looking at specifics. It also promises a unitary solution to a unitary problem. In OP's case he sees the strict moral rules of Islam as a solution. /pol/ are too xenophobic for that and think national socialism is the solution (although Hitler expressed his admiration for islam, funnily enough).

>>9444554
Because it's the shittiest AAA religion there is. It has produced nothing, but shit.

>Needing religion to not be a nihilist

>>9440250
Just look at what materialism is doing to Palestine and you think your weak religion stands a chance.

>>9444554
Will to power mentality.

Ex-Muslim living in a Muslim country here. Stop getting your informations about Islam from /pol/, its literally a shit religion that even islamic countries dont rule with it anymore.

>>9440468
Islamhouse dot com is what I listen to

>>9443917
It's right before the part about fucking nine year olds.

>>9440749
>believes that being pathetic is bad and must be avoided
Ironic, considering that your view is based on what other people think.

>>9443821
This ia true and the hard problem of Islam ITT. It's exceptionally anti-intellectual and resistant to any form of engagement with philosophy and secularism. Very hard to build a coherent vision around Islam (due to the two reasons anon mentioned >>9443821 and a hierarchical clergy).

The thing that bothers me is the ideological colonialism through marriage restrictions for women. It's growing like the plague and frankly I wouldn't want my children to grow up near it. Certainly not in its present form, but I see it as exceptionally resistant to any form of thoughtful reformation.

>>9445409
Lack of a hierarchical clergy* that is

>>9440250

lmao OP since when is fucking goats not degeneracy and nihilistic as fuck

>>9440250
Quran.

Islam is inherently flawed like all religions because it is man made.

There may be a divine power that rules this universe, but it most certainly doesn't care about men eating pigs or women not covering their heads.

All religions are the noble lies plato speaks of. We need to change ourselves in such a way that there is no need for a lie for the development of a peaceful, moralistic society.

>>9440550
>>9440554

thanks for quality content

>>9441382
>live a week amongst lower class ghetto niggers
> true christians suck

>>9445569
>Being a retarded fucking proddy

This is exactly whats wrong with society today.

Don't you think everything would be so much better if instead of people stupidly moralizing while being blind to how much their own selfishness and blindness plays into it, and just agreed to, say, help orphans and travelers, love their spouse, feed the hungry, exercise humility, and not eat some unhealthy food. Hell, even if some of it seems unnecessary, doesn't it make more sense to submit to a moral doctrine that sets a strait path then to be blown about like a small boat on the torrents of your passions and desires? Have you really never caused evil with good intentions before, or made a wrong decision before? And isn't it better to humbly submit and live a morally righteous life now, today, then to constantly try to change yourself to be a little bit better?

It might sound like a noble idea, to take the world on your shoulders with total honesty, but the worlds a big dark place that will chew you up and spit you out. Man needs to chain himself down to the good, not give every siren's song it's fair consideration.

>>9445589
not that anon, but I've lived a couple of years amongst upper-middle class (by western standards) ghetto sand-niggers.

Some of them are decent people, but the same could be said for many people regardless of their theistic identity - there always is and will be a divide between professed belief and actual beliefs. Whether it's uneducated Muslims, or sophisticated ones, it is still not clear to me how their religion informs their morality. They all seem to take it as prescriptive and only engage in apologetics and interpretation for those tenets that are simply incompatible with any civilized culture. Most apologetics are fedora-tier: poorly rehashed Christian ontological arguments for 'muh existence of god'. They are incapable of coming up with secular arguments that enforce their theology and are either very confused or have no idea whatsoever as to how faith informs their worldview.

>>9445602
>Advocating for submission to anything as the cure for babby's existential angst.

This is the best Islamist internet-shills can come up with. Luckily, you're all brainlets, we'd all be doomed if your dysgenics was supported by intelligent sophistry.

>>9440250

>2017
>Falling for the "Islam isn't degenerate" meme

>2017
>Unironically becoming a Reactionary in the face of modernity

>2017
>Preferring to deceive yourself into adopting a primitive belief, rather than addressing these problems with the proper courage

That said, Islam is perhaps the least terrible of the Abrahamic religions - but whatever way you look at it, there's no escaping the fact that God is dead. That God's corpse looks somewhat 'better' under Islam, is no reason to submit - he is still dead.

>>9445619
> Islam is perhaps the least terrible of the Abrahamic religions

the one relevant contribution you could have made was to expand on "perhaps".
Agreed on the reactionary nature of embracing theism. We have fedora-Christians now. Still prefer them to Muslims. The internet is an angsty adolescent though. This too shall pass.

>>9445613
not an argument

>>9445602
Thats exactly what's wrong with religion you blind retard. People stupidly moralizing. Helping people is good, but islam also advocated some questionable stuff, like beheading blasphemers, or stoning adulterers. Are barbaric rituals like that moral? Not at all.

If you had read my post properly, without being the fucking brainier that you are, you would have seen that I realize the importance of a moral society. But when devotion to a divine being is the highest good, it leads to some actively immoral stances.

Take the lynching of Mashal khan, an alleged blasphemer who was violently beaten to death. That can be considered moral according to Islam.

Yes, morality is necessary. But when the source of that morality creates more problems than it solves, it's clearly flawed and needs to be replaced. Preferably a system with no lies and deceit as the foundation of its morality.

>>9445602
> people stupidly moralizing while being blind to how much their own selfishness and blindness plays into it

This is the definition of Pharisee-ism, spiritual pride/hypocrisy.

The problem with Protestants is that they that they don't understand the scriptures. They read about the prophets standing up to bad kings and corrupt priests, and they read John the Baptist and Jesus Christ chastising the Pharisees, and then they stupidly go around shouting at everyone as though everyone were as spiritually corrupt and responsible as the Pharisees.
The fact is that the prophets never went around hassling the common man with loud threats, and Christ was always gentle to the crowds, because these people are mostly ignorant and therefore not as culpable. But Protestant preachers shout at the Lord's lost sheep as though they were all wolves, and this is their sin.

This is inevitable because Christ HAS instituted a priesthood (the Catholic priesthood) who are endowed with the charism to preach, and the Protestants are spiritual usurpers. So to even be a Protestant preacher usually involves a certain amount of pride and vain self-presumption in that you are taking it upon yourself, without any real supernatural calling or the sacrament of ordination, to speak on God's behalf.

>>9445619
>God's corpse looks somewhat 'better' under Islam, is no reason to submit - he is still dead.
Nicely written sentence, if a touch edgy.

>>9445643

I would change it slightly: "through the lens of Islam"

>>9443917
oh, you mean the part about burning orphanages and destroying public kitchens? sounds more realistic tbqh

>>9445299
Sure but why are people feeling this way all of a sudden? To me it seems like a lot of the /pol/ mentality is rooted in resentment towards sexual liberation, but I don't know.

>>9445684
>having strong opinions about a book you've never read

Spotted the retard

>>9442096
Underrated post.

>>9440250
>converting to the pedo jizz stain religion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwhq31Vj0aU

>>9441802

>>9447694
By the way, "charishes" is written "cherishes".

>>9443602
>Islam created the first university in the world, and there are still tons of Islamic universities. Islam was founded on intellectualism
No it didn't. Universities are the result of High Middle ages Catholic Cathedral schools.

>>9440437
scum, i hope some Christian neo crusader ends you.

>>9445684
You have no idea what you're talking about. Compared to most rulers of the time Mo and the Rashidun's were benevolent conquerers

>>9440274
just, not enough

Islam isn't really defensible. This seems like a waste of time.

Why not forge your own destiny?

>>9443902
i see it as way more relevant than "statecraft: beduin edition", but whatever you say buddy.

>>9440478
>michel huehuehue
who?

>>9440688
>>9440663
in 13th century. there were 3 different khalifa.
nobody gave a shit about what other guy saying.
in 16th century, yavuz took the power by force.(whick power is also memluks took from abbasians, and abbasians took the power from emevian racist. ant they took the power by killing muhammads greatsonsand and followers) so yavuz fought against the khalifa.
in 19-20th century, arabs fought against turks even tho khalifa said it's against religion.

so, no. he did the right thing. when you have power, it's chaliphate power is helpfull you to get rogue. but if you are not, you are everybodies enemy

>>9441307
do you know what "cahiliye age" means retard?
after prophet died, they took over again and killed prophets grandsons and followers

>>9440537


Why do /pol/fags have such a hardon for Slavic bullshit?

Orthodoxy is dumb. don't try and be some sort of contrarian and just go Catholic route ffs.

>>9442142


>universe simulation theory based religion

wew lad brainlet detected. First of all, the nature of reality is inconsequential to the experience as it's nonfalsifiable. Second of all, that just sounds like pop-nihilism.


I'm pretty sure you're fucking retarded famodachi.

>>9443786

What? Catholic dogma is pretty clearly lined and shit senpai. I don't think that's much of a mess.

Islam is all fucked.

>>9444145

your moral guidelines are arbitrary and are manifested by your general malaise towards most people and this post is derived from your desire to A. have contention for the sake of contention/be a fucking contrarian or B. trolling.

>Western society on the verge of achieving the individual's ultimate freedom
>moralfags want daddy mohammad to make the scary liberation go away

>>9440437
Islam is for non-whites

>>9450129
I'm all for the individual's ultimate freedom but it might very well be at odds with the interests of society at large. More power to the independent individual means less incentive for co-dependence like the family and community inclined living. Not a bad thing in itself but it will undermine the cohesion within society, create a more divided populace that is easier to control because the people are too divided among themselves to unite against things being imposed on them by power structures.

If you are not a person who can rely on his own merit or self-sufficiency your next best bet is to be immoral and to only act in your own interest with utter disregard to the consequences for others, if all social-cohesion is removed from a society it isn't likely to end well.

>>9450170
no worries fampai, even with all the existential angst that describes the West right now, rest assured we will unite against Islam if it strives to become an influence. We may be confused as a civilisation, but we won't pretend we know so little about the world as to not stand against Islam.

>>9450185

>rest assured we will unite against Islam if it strives to become an influence

Famous last words :^)

>>9443602
>>9447952
>Islam created the first university in the world
You could argue that between the conversion to Christianity of the Roman Empire and the creation of the first universities in Italy, there was a long, violent and materialistic dark age of German kingdoms domination.

>>9447952
Wasn't the first University Plato's Academy? Or is that a meme.

>>9450214
No that was the academy

>>9440663
too based for our poo country he thought he could save us btw i know its about islam currently but if you want to learn why erdogan and (( Political Islam )) is born look to Kenan Evren coup.

an islamic europe could be interesting to see, but I really don't see any reason to convert to the autistic, resentful modern version of islam

maybe if it had it's golden age right now, but it seems essentially dead right now

I visited istanbul a few years back and maybe this is just being blinded by opulence, but the contrast between the wonders of the sultans palace and the trashy gold-plated ferraris you see the saudi sheiks throw around is rather striking

>>9450822
or in other words, islam seems just as "decadent" as the west or even more so, just more conservative (which isn't the opposite of decadence)

i used to think islam could be acceptable until i read Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and was blindsided by his coverage of the rise of Islam, which being written in the 18th century, had none of the careful political correctness and search for "equivalence" of neoliberal globalism, and I was like nope nope nope that shit needs to be defeated fuck that shit straight to hell

>>9445946
Sexual liberation is destroying society, so rejecting it is pretty sensible.

>>9450855
sexual liberation is destroying the birth rate, but other than that i don't really see what the big deal is

>>9450855
if sexual oppression made societies stronger then islam would be dominating the world, instead islamic countries are third world shit holes used as playthings by israel and the cia

>>9450865
Promiscuous women make for bad mothers and partners. Kids raised by single mothers tend to have problems. I'd also argue that 'sexually liberated' people are less happy and tend to focus on things in life that increase neither their wellbeing nor that of society.

>>9450873
It depends on how you define success. If your notion of success is 'nation states that dominate militarily and economically with no regard for its citizens nor long term effects on the state itself and the world in general' than the USA is obviously winning.

If you think in terms of long term social structures that provide a bedrock for a functional society then secular materialist societies are failing.

Also, Islam is deadset to become the dominant world religion in the next few decades.

>>9450897
you just sound like the conservative version of one of those liberals who "fell in love love with islam" after 9/11, either that or you're mad that your mom is a whore, either way, not my problem

>>9450855

If you think you can have a post-industrial, prosperous society without sexual liberation you're deluded. All strictly "traditionalist" countries are either primitive shitholes or outrageously wealthy due to natural resources (i.e. sheer luck) and are neck-deep in pretension and hypocrisy.

>>9450897
>Also, Islam is deadset to become the dominant world religion in the next few decades.

islam is also about to run out of oil in the next few decades which is basically going to finish off the only thing that made them relevant at all

>>9450916
exactly, when the oil dries up do you really think all these arabs who rely on slave labor and whose wives never had a job in their life are suddenly going to develop a judeo-protestant work ethic? not likely

>>9450897
>Also, Islam is deadset to become the dominant world religion in the next few decades.
and its countries will still be a playground for western powers

>>9450957
Demography is destiny, Western nations will no longer be Western.

>>9451024
sorry that doesn't really apply in the age of industrialization

>>9451029
It does, Muslims have higher fertility rates than non-Muslims even when adjusted for education and income. Islam gives that extra .3 kids.

Leave the simulation run long enough and the entire world will be Muslim.

>>9451049
so do africans, leave your simulation running long enough and the whole world will be black, do you actually think that's going to happen? and if it did do you think jews, christians, koreans, and japs won't totally dominate their economies?

>>9451060
>so do africans
I said adjusted for education and income.

>>9451060

Africa is like half Christian half Muslim.

>>9451049

Applying "ceteris paribus" arguments to things like fertility is pretty stupid. Imagine how stupid it would've been to extrapolate the birthrate of the post-WW2 baby boom. Even Saudi Arabia has a rapidly declining birthrate, now that their women get educated at increasing rates.

>>9451084
yes, i know this, do you have a point or do were u just letting us know that u can skim wikipedia?

>>9451087
>Even Saudi Arabia has a rapidly declining birthrate, now that their women get educated at increasing rates.
So their birthrates drop because they are becoming less Islamic.

>>9451049
it mattered in the ancient world when you had to fight man vs man against a horde of germanic mother fuckers flooding into your city, but once Richard Gatling come up with a gun that can fire 200 rounds a minute, the old flood of barbarous bodies rushing your position just wasn't as much of a problem any more, sorry but trying to outbreed the whites is a stupid strategy for world domination, which is why the chinese did the one child policy, fucking yourself into poverty does nothing to increase the prowess of your civilization

>>9451100
My point is that not even a filthy rich fundamentalist theocracy is immune to secularization.

>>9451108
Why lay siege when you can just walk in and make yourself at home?

You don't breed to rush them, you just walk into their societies which they allow because they have become decadent and weak ('tolerant). Then you start outbreeding them locally, which they support and applaud because of their weakness.

Western civilisation is welcoming this.

>>9451130
That's true, bot a filthy rich liberal democracy is obviously not immune to Islamisation either.

>>9451132
>turn the other cheek and welcome them into your permissive and free society

the west is up to it's old christian tricks again, but since your religion is founded by a macho warlord you blindly stumble into the trap...

i think nietzsche put it best when he said "the priest is the most deadly enemy, not because of his strength, but because of his weakness"

>>9451132
degeneracy is a result of power
to make an analogy, the west is some sort of ancient cool sci-fi technology that still manages to function after 200 million years of accumulated grime has covered it and clogged up it's interior, below which stand the "non-decadent" machines which need to be polished to a mirror sheen to function, and below which stand the truly degenerate machines, rusted husks in the scrapyard

the west still rules the world, I see no sign that anything is at threat here except the comfortable lives of the cow-like western citizens which live like a microbial coating on the surface of the unstoppable engine of dominance that is the west

>>9450163
Muhammad was described as being white.

>>9440415
Pickthall is the most accurate english translation.

>>9440550
Christianity
>"and thou shall eat the flesh of thy sons and the flesh of thy daughters"
>"I do not come to bring peace, but the sword"
>"the women should remain silent when they enter the temple"
"I don not come to reject the law but to uphold it"
>literal fucking human sacrifice

Islam
>Almost every surah begins with describing God's mercy and compassion
>women are equal to men
>"the white is not superior to the black nor the black to the white; nor is the Arab superior to the non-Arab nor the non-Arab is superior to the Arab."
> "O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted."
>"Whoever saves a human life, it is as if they saved all humanity, and whoever murders a human life, it is as if they murdered all humanity" (paraphrased)

>>9441359
The Qur'an criticizes Muhammad several times. The religion doesn't teach that the final prophet was 100% perfect, he was just very, very honorable and good. This isn't even according to the religion, but to eye witnesses at the time. Muhammad was basically Mr. Rogers if Mr. Rogers had to go to war to defend his people from persecution and oppression.

>>9451397
>>"the white is not superior to the black nor the black to the white;

wow considering "whiteness" is an idea constructed in the lat 19th century it's amazing that it would be mentioned in a 1300 year old document! i guess god was sending him messages from the future! either that or you're reading a bogus translation meant to be palatable to sjws and african americans