/lit/ - Literature

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>>925649
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>>925653
To be at all meaningful each of your points of discussion would have to occupy their own thread, none of which would be primarily about literature (not that I wouldn't both enjoy and find these threads interesting).

I'm assuming that the intent is to create a meta-thread to feel out the demographic that mainly views and posts on /lit/. Sad to say, I don't think such a demographic exists, most of the people here are just passing by and stay at other, more active boards.

>>925653
OP, lurk moar!

>>925673
You must be posting on every thread , just saying their posts suck. Why dont you make your own thread instead of saying theirs sucks!!

1) Cool by me. Will vote for him again.
2) Cool by me. Women are valuable to modern society.
3) I'm poor, it sucks. Eat the rich unless they're cool like Gates, Buffet or Paul Allen
4) Never owned a gun. Don't care if others do so long as they don't shoot me.
5) Inevitable
6) Large force driving most country's (including America) economies
7) Cool by me. Only a woman can say what goes in or comes out of her body.
8) Stupid.
9) We should probably try and protect/sustain it more. No idea where to start however.
10) Getting better. See black president as evidence.
11) Tragic but what're you going to do?
12) Social health issue, not a criminal issue. Most legal drugs are worse/more addictive than illegal ones. Legalize pot and end War on Drugs, if you can even call it a war.
13) Just as divisive.

Now take this to /new/

Well, I'm not about to comment on each one, so I'll nitpick ones that look interesting.

1. Obama has failed the world. End of discussion.

2. Feminism happened, All three waves of it. Now I'm a guy and i still say it wasn't enough. The media still puts women in a subordinate position as serving man, and we live in a phallocentric society.

3. Class relations is shifting from a wealth problem, to an educated and intelligence problem. The gap between rich and poor is becoming irrelevant in comparison to the gap between intelligent and uneducated.

6. The role of the military (in my opinion) has shifted from national security to local force. The military will be used to control a country's own people, once the we get closer to a New World Order.

7. Abortion should be legal. It helps stem cell research, and we can talk again when a woman gets raped and has to take of the child.

10. I live in South Africa. AA is a load of shit and this country shows a clear example that it fails. If you replace competent workers with incompetent workers based on discrimination and race, shit fails. Example: we suffer power outs because of incompetent fools.

12. Marijuana is a harmless drug. If tobacco and alcohol is legal, marijuana should be. If anything, its better than the other two taxed drugs and would make the world a better place.

>>925681
What? In what way did I suggest I thought OP's thread was bad? I expressly stated that I thought his points of discussion were interesting and worth sharing, even to the point of welcoming them here, offering the suggestion that considering the depth of each topic was so great they each deserved their own thread.

Perhaps you interpreted this when I said that such threads would be ineffective here but I said this because /lit/ doesn't have a primary demographic, not because I thought the thread sucks.

And as far as posting in every thread, how are you people recognizing me? I don't use a trip for posting, I don't even use a name!

1. No opinion
2. Everything is subjective, all is other
3. Fluid
4. No-one should have a gun
5. Anti-war
6. Sad
7. Pro-abortion
8. Anti-religion
9. It changes
10. No opinion
11. Not informed enough to have an opinion
12. What people want to do with their own bodies is a matter of personal choice
13. Less original thought today and a distinct lack of passion

>>925690
You sage every thread and provide unnecessary detail as to why it hasn't met your standards, as if you speak for everyone, which you do not. Or even that you might be correct in the things you say, which you are not.

>>925651
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1. Not American, not overtly interested in politics. He was elected into a set of circumstances unlike those his predecessors had experienced, but the same can be said of all Presidents before him so his legacy remains to be seen, although he's worked quite well as a symbol.
2. They deserve them and not because they're women but because everybody does. In terms of equality we're either stagnant or going backwards and in terms of sexism we're definitely going fucking downhill. I think it's fucking ridiculous for someone to disregard the issues women face by citing the similar issues that men do, although in its warped way at least it's popularised the idea of gender equality overall.
3. Poor people are poor, rich people are rich. Sometimes it's bad but I don't care as much as I should.
4. People should be able to protect themselves. I'm aware it's a very iffy area of the law because these types of things are always so dependent on circumstance but that's too bad.
5. Happens. No doubt we all wish it didn't but it's so ingrained in our society and history that it's difficult to turn away from it and suggest we're better than that, because we're not. It should be respected and learnt from but never idealised.
6. Close enough to 5
7. People should be able to do whatever the fuck they want to their uterus. Its legality and accessibility is very important, but it's by no means a birth control measure.
8. Atheist. Respect other people who, even if they need a God or belief system to do it, are good people. Lots aren't.
Alright I've lost interest

>>925706
Fuck you, he sure speaks for me.

>>925706
Yep, he pretty much said what I would've.

1. Same thing that happened to Jefferson Davis, was expected to fix a country's problems singlehandedly, a task greater than possibly any man could achieve.
2. gb2kitchen
3. america is built for business, but inconsequential businessmen are way overpaid. Those who contribute the most to society should be rich, but the divide should remain in place.
4. moar guns, moar control on trafficking
5. moar war, direct military toward genocidal african governments n shit. but i'm incredibly uninformed here.
6. no opinion, not well read on war and military
7. abortion for those who want it, seems only fair.
8. religion needs to advocate self-control more, especially in terms of jihad and kiddy-touching
9. moar national parks
10. moar equality.
11. holy shit way way way moar attention to mental health disorders and treatments, especially in REAL disorders like schizo and bipolar
12. less meth, more pot
13.politics today are drowned in a sea of uninformed opinions, i don't want to add to the cesspool.

also:
>>925706
what this guy said times x1000

1. Not a bad president, but by Canadian/European standards, he's kind of a conservative pussy. He spends too much time on elegant speeches and not enough on actually acting. I want Joe Biden to take the reins. There's a man who knows how to get shit done and look classy doing it.

2. Gender should not be a significant issue in this day and age.

3. I'm white upper-middle-middle class, so my opinion is probably invalid.

4. Don't own a gun, don't particularly care if other people own them. In a perfect world, the government would say, "Hand over your guns," and the criminals would say, "k," but that's not exactly realistic. Oh well.

5. Should be avoided if at all possible, though it does have its place.

6. I once encountered a group of soldiers around midnight alone. Do you know what they did to me?

They helped me push my car out of a snowbank. Honestly, I think police state alarmists are a tad out of touch with reality.

7. Before the second trimester, go for it.

8. I personally have no use for it, but I concede it can be a force for good.

9. We are far more dependent on it than most people realize, and I think we ought to keep it in the best shape possible.

10. Ideally, race, like gender, would be a non-issue today. But for now, I would support programs that assist minorities in achieving their full potential, so long as it doesn't come at the expense of others. I'd love to see a world in which everyone is judged on merit.

11. What can be done?

12. Please don't overdose.

13. My, what a broad question. They're... different?

1. Irrelavent
2. I value intelligence, not gender
3. Fact of life, there will be the superior and there will be the inferior
4. Weaponry is only a tool
5. Apathetic
6. Influence vs Force
7. Pro-abortion, we have enough degenerates
8. Pointless spirituality which is losing its flavor
9. Important, as it where we live
10. Don't care about race much, intelligence rules out all
11. Euthanize them
12. Too chaotic to control, pharmaceutical companies keep drugs for currency
13. No change

1. President Obama

>>I'm British, he hated on us Brits over the BP oil disaster when it wasn't neccessarily our fault. Happy that it pissed off Cameron though, the oily turd.

2. Women's rights and the issue of sexism

>>I'm all for womens rights, fuck it, why shouldn't I?

3. Class relations

>>I'm pretty much lower class, I've had to work hard for my stuff. It pisses me off when people get everything handed to them, but I guess it just means I know the value of money a little better than them.

4. Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws

>>Weapons, firearms, fuck that. There's no need for them.

5. War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today)

>>I don't know enough about it to speculate, of course I think it's awful and it's humanity at it's worst, but sometimes, maybe it's really pretty got to be done.

6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society


>>There's far more sectors of the military than there was "back then", and as we don't go round trying to expand our empire these days they don't have quite as active a role as they once did.

7. Abortion

>>100% for it. It's a blob of fucking jelly up until the late stages of pregnancy.

8. Religion

>>I'm not religious, but I always thought that as much good has come from it than there is bad.

9. The environment

>>Is there really anything we can do now?

10. Affirmative action and race relations

>>Racism (real racism, genuine hatred) is disgusting. I don't flip my lid at stereotypes and stuff like that, though.

12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise

>>I've had some fucking amazing nights because of drugs. I've had some shitty days after. I was curious, I satisfied my curiousity, now I'm happy with just drinking.

I've missed out stuff I didn't know anything at all about.

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1. Doing the best he can in the situation he is in, which is a pretty bad situation.
2. "I have a dream that my four children will live in a country where they are not judged by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character" - Martin Luther King; content of character is what it is all about.
3. Fact of life (as has already been stated)
4. 2nd amendment isn't doing anyone any good.
5. Mostly unnecessary but should be used in extreme situations (like WW2, UNlike the war in the middle east)
6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society
7. Pro Choice
8. Religion is illogical, i have no use for it.
9. Needs more attention without excuses "bad for the economy" etc.
10. No opinion
11. Breeding a lower class of human has consequences.
12. Legalize cannabis.
13. Nothing happens in today's politics, as opposed to what was the past.

1. A cipher. Extreme liberal, but gives big concessions to conservatives. Inexperience leads him to place too much trust in decision-making to those around him.
2. Merit alone should prevail. IE If a university's physics depart is 99% male, that means more men are interested in physics. Diversity for diversity's sake is stupid and dangerous.
3. Direct govt meddling to 'spread the wealth' fails every time. Equal opportunity for quality education is a key.
4. 2nd amendment, right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms. Not a gun person.
5. The existence of sovereign nations interacting with one another makes it unavoidable.
6. They say they've mechanized the war. Then what the hell are we fighting for?
7. A symptom of an ill society. The immoral branch of a corrupt root.
8. Will always be with us. Dawkins and his ilk won't change it.
9. Carbon credit system will fall prey to corruption immediately.
10. Should be based on class, not race. Plenty of poor whites and asians would benefit.
11. Pharmaceuticals are peddling their chemicals to make money. Restless leg syndrome is a far cry from smallpox.
12. Legalize pot and cut down on excess taxation from overcrowded prisons. Heroin and meth are physically ruinous poisons.
13. Power and conquest are no longer in vogue. They're cloaked in idealism What is to be done with money must be given the form and thrust of an ideal.

>>925653
1. Not a bad President, suffers because people don't understand the inherent constitutional checks on his power. He can't do anything he wants.
2. Gender egalitarianism
3. Rawls' A Theory of Justice -> Inequality can only be justified when it raises the position of the worse off in society. Though Rawls is not without his troubles.
4. Neutral.
5. There is such a thing as a just war.
6.Deterrent, ideally would be stripped down to its original intention of protecting the homeland rather than as an expensive and ineffective projection of power.
7. Legal
8. I find religion to be inane at best, but appreciate the importance of freedom of religion. Would like to see something like France's laicite in the states.
9. We've only got one.
10. Conflicted between legacy of slavery and segregation and the feeling that the black community perpetuates a victim mentality.
11. The pharmaceutical industry loves money, and drugs are an excellent way to pacify a population.
12. It's really no one's business what people do with their own bodies.
13. The past always seems like a golden age.

/r9k/ conservative?

You are no brobot.

1. A good man trying to make the best of a bad situation. People expected a magical negro and were disappointed when he didn't make everyone rich within a year.
2. I believe in equality, but I also feel like some feminist leaders expect higher treatment than what men receive.
3. As a man of too many races with not enough money, but has seen people who have real money-- we really need to tax the rich more. I'm not talking about the "above $250,000" margin, I'm referring to the "I'm an oil tycoon's son, and I make $40,000,000 by doing nothing due to birth." Because that's some bullshit right there.
4. I really wish there were stricter laws on guns, but more lenient laws on fistfights. I really want to kick someone's ass every now and then.
5. I don't know why we agree to fight and die for other people's disputes.
6. I feel like (especially living in a high-military area) the military is no longer a glamorous position. There used to be a sense of pride in serving your country, but now it's just a bunch of jackasses shooting guns.
7. It saves more lives than it ends. Think about that.

>>925881
cont.

8. I'm a man of faith. I don't give off the "YAAY GOD!" sort of vibe, because I don't feel it's necessary for my beliefs to encroach upon others'.
9. We've got one planet. We really shouldn't be killing it as much as we are.
10. Now here's an interesting one. I've done a term paper on AA, so I'm pretty well versed on the issue. There's definitely some reform in need, and there is no specific set of rules on the matter, even statewide. So because of that, it's hard to say my exact position without a wall of text; so I'll leave it at: I'd rather it not be needed, but the poor and blacks really need a boost in society.
11. I'm really not knowledgeable on the subject, but I feel like we should be doing more than what we are.
12. Marijuana and other "harmless" drugs are fine, but we need far more treatment for the heavier stuff, like meth and heroin.
13. Nobody is straightforward anymore. It is rare to see a candidate running for office and just have on their advertisements something that says "DEMOCRAT" or "REPUBLICAN." There's too much research needed to find out who actually stands for what.

1. Ehhh, not the worst president ever. Small improvement over Bush.
2. Women should have equal rights. Sexism among women is actually more prevalent than sexism among men. Feminism seems to be a pretty sexist movement in which men are filth and shit these days.
3. Don't care.
4. I kind of follow the "If the government allows you a right, then take use of it." I think it's usually not helpful in self-defense as you will be shot before you probably have a chance to get it. But hey, keep one if you want.
5. War is pointless. Kthxbai.
6. Seems to be a pretty big thing these days. We seem to love us some killers.
7. Pro-choice.
8. I'm not religious. I think it's frivolous but let people believe what they want.
9. Uh... It's important? I'm no tree hugger though. To save the environment, I won't produce kids.
10. I think that in general, Affirmative action makes it more difficult for a white man to get a job as compared to a man who is of another ethnicity. At this point, it's pretty much pointless. Racism exists, but it's nowhere near as prevalent as it was back in the day.
11. Since I have Asperger's, OCD, Clinical Depression and Severe Anxiety, uhm... I think it's mostly just doctors making up bullshit and trying to diagnose people and stating you've got something because you have a unique and interesting personality. Most of ADHD cases are bullshit.
12. Legalize 'em all. Let us do with our body as we please. Suicide included.
13. Politics are stupider than ever.

1. Says the right things at the right moments, but as for how he's handling illegal immigration (native Arizonan here) he's being an absolute moron. Health care reform was/is a joke, the problem isnt the insurance companies it's the pharmaceutical companies.
2. The idea of "women's rights" is a joke to begin with, much like the idea of "minority rights." Everyone, regardless of background/religion/color/etc. should be equal (in a perfect world of course).
3. Meh
4. I like them.
5. I think it's a bunch of people getting together and killing each other over petty shit. "HEY FUCK YOU MAN, ALLAH SAYS WE SHOULD PURGE THE EARTH OF INFIDELS" or "FUCK YOU BOURGEOISIE PIG, COMMUNISM RULES!"
6. It's all about epeen flexing without any practicality.
7. If you dont want to have a baby, learn to use some fucking birth control. If that's too god damn difficult, get your reproductive organs removed.
8. I think religions are humanity's way of bringing sense/ethics to our existence. Each one has something to offer.
9. It's so beyond fucked at this point I dont even know what to say.
10. I think it's a concept that has outlived its use. All it does at this point is incite resentment and anger towards the minorities that receive it. I also think reverse racism is bullshit. I also think liberal racism is bullshit.
11. There are probably tons and tons of contributing factors to this, but I like to think that it's nature's version of population control. As for ADHD/ADD I think it's a direct result of the society we live in (instant gratification with EVERYTHING).
12. Make marijuana legal.
13. Our political system is way too large. I really dont know enough about past politics though :-/

>>925653

I have a tendency for self-deprecation, so take in mind that I say everything in this post with the thought in mind that my own ideas and thoughts are meaningless. (I wanted to write short paragraphs for each answer, but I can't. Anyway, my thoughts on my answers have a lot more nuance than may seem apparent from the answers themselves.)

1. If he doesn't start taking some stands, I won't vote for him. I like him, but I'm tired of excuses.
2. I support equal pay (who doesn't?) and think it's a rather shitty fact that women have had the right to vote for less than 100 years.
3. A lot of thoughts on this subject; can't really give an answer. Fuck middle class apathy, though, I will say that.
4. I look down upon people who treat them like play things. OPENLY. Fuck weapons.
5. I don't like war, I don't like people who have the presumption to speak for millions on the matter of war, either.
6. Generally respectful towards the military itself; don't care for the PLACE it has in modern-day society.
7. So tough to give a blanket answer for something like this. I could write essays on this subject.
8. Again, so nuanced; the format doesn't suit this question well.
9. It would be nice if we'd quit acting like we're the only animals on this planet.
10. Dislike affirmative action very strongly.
11. Not sure what to make of it, honestly.
12. I think marijuana should be legalized, but I'm not sure about cocaine, heroin, etc. I don't wish to speak in ignorance on this.
13. Political theater today is driven from the outside rather than from the inside. Politicians are boring, media personalities are more interesting than them, but even they are becoming boring. That's theater though. I think politics itself used to be far more intellectual than it is now, and I think it should return to that.

1. More of a failure than any decision Bush ever made.
2. Feminism is about choice, not force. I support women who want to do anything they want, but not butch lesbians who think that all women are perfect and all men are against them.
3. Education makes class, and since most schooling is free, it's the person's choice on whether they want to make something of themselves.
4. If a law is made against people owning guns legally, the people who own them illegally won't just magically stop shooting you.
5. War has been required in the past. Peace is an impossible thing to attain, and people who believe it is are extremely misguided, overly apologetic, and don't understand the fact that there will always be idiots who are going to blow themselves up for a stupid ideal.
6. The military is doing more than it should. We should be actively patrolling our borders and protecting the country from the inside of the country, rather than lashing out and creating something of an imperialist image.

7. Legalize completely. It helps stem cell research, and it isn't killing anything anymore than a man does when he masturbates. The wasted potential argument is idiotic.
8. Religion, no matter how dumb people think it is, plays a role in culture. And cultural development is extremely important. Plus, charity work helps the poor a ton.
9. The Earth has a very, very long history of correcting its own flaws. The only thing that should be protected to preserve ecosystems are endangered animals. Global warming is crap that has been overhyped by a massive hypocrite.
10. Affirmative action should not exist. It prevents better-trained people from doing things just because they're white or male, and takes priority on women and other races just to give a sense of equality while taking any trace of equality away.
11. Many people with mental illnesses can live at least normal lives. Educators just have to take special care of them and be very literal and concrete in everything they teach. Special education needs better funding than regular education, because it requires a completely different method that needs heavier research.

12. It's a person's right to do whatever they want in their own home. Drug laws are simply another case of the government protecting people from themselves. There should be heavier research done so the government can distribute facts, rather than allowing ad companies to dish out completely false statements. Hard drugs that can actually kill you should still be illegal for obvious reasons, but when it comes to hallucinogens and psychedelics, they're not addictive, and can even have positive effects on people with mental illnesses.
13. Politics have become too integrated with religion. It may be important to culture, but separation of church and state still stands. It may be religious political people taking a stand against the vehement anti-religious movements, but they should do that on their own time rather than bring god and government together. Otherwise we'll just turn into another middle east.

/new/ is the most conservative board on 4chan by far.

1. not to sure however find it ridiculous that americans think global healthcare is socialist (im a socialist)
2. women are clearly equal however all this bullshit feminist readings of everything seriously undermines their cause
3. no comment
4. guns should be illegal. have no problem with defending your family/home however i think guns cause way more problems than they solve.
5. what does this mean? war is often a required evil theres no denying it. modern wars are just for economic reasons (perpetuating fear) and just retarded in general.
6.
7. choice. should be a limit (i think its like 4 months or something in legal countries).
8. seperation of church and state. religious leaders get a right to representation on SOCIAL issues.
9. protection of the environment. renewable sources such as wind/solar/hydro expanded upon. hemp legalised.
10. equality between all races and more emphasis on education.
11. plague of disorders and diseases? aspergers/autism/adhd/ocd are all easily dealt with. i personally think people suffering downs syndrome should'nt be allowed to have children though..
12. legalise marijuana and all psychadelics. narcotics should remain illegal however instead of prosecuting and jailing, far more emphasis on educating and assisting (needle bins, etc)
13. dont really understand this either. i guess my opinion is politics today are a bit of a joke where in the past people truly had something to fight for.

1. Great politician, terrible president. People actually believed in the "audacity of hope", and of course they got fucked in the ass afterwards.
2. There isn't such an issue (in my country at least). More women go to university than men, and adjusted for pregnancy leave they outearn men as well. I think the whole affirmative action thing is bullshit.
3. This is 2010, there are no classes. You can't differentiate between "workers" and "capitalists" like you did 100 years ago. Poor people are entrepreneurial all the time, and pretty much everybody owns pretty large amounts of equity.
4. Haven't really considered it. What about self-defence laws?
5. It's a useful tool, I suppose. With increased globalization and world gdp we will be seeing much less of it, of course.
6. Hasn't really changed, has it?
7. Against abortion, for killing babies.
8. Religious people have mental issues. Again, not an issue in my country. The majority is not theist.
9. Not gonna have kids, so I don't give a fuck.
10. Affirmative action is fucking retarded.
11. There's no such plague. Maybe you should look up those fact things you mentioned. Some conditions are over-diagnosed in some places in the world, though.
12. For full legalization of all drugs.
13. People are equally retarded, and will continue to be so. Corrupt morons will keep getting elected until we restrict voting privileges.

PS. I'm one of those "batshit insane" conservatives. Fuck you.

1. hes the best you're going to get, this is the golden age

1. Doing the best job he can under difficult circumstances. As a european though, I laugh at conservative claims he's 'socialist'
2. All for rights, sexism's endemic though in both directions.
3. Having been born into the working class, most are jackasses, in the UK at least. Fuck them.
4. A man's home is his castle.
5. Shouldn't be entered in to lightly, but sometimes required to remove fascists, when a nice assassination won't do.
6. It's endemic. War shouldn't be seen as glamorous, though it no doubt is..
7. Woman's right to choose.
8. Harmful.
9. We're all fucked.
10. Fuck affirmative action. Seems like discrimination to me.
11. Tragic.
12. Legalise it.
13. It's always been personality driven. Palin's a tad worrying though, seems the idiocracy's in full force.

Disclaimer: European.

1. Annoyingly idealistic, but that's par for the course. Probably better than most alternatives.
2. A non-issue at this point. Younger women are poised to overtake men in many professional fields.
3. I don't identify with any class and don't understand why anyone would. Grew up collecting cans to pay for groceries, but last night a $200 dinner felt about right.
4. Allow handgun bans. Rifles and shotguns, I don't care.
5. War is a natural part of the human condition. It is both awful and incredibly exciting - young men will find it whether or not govts officially create and sanction it.
6. Vet here. I don't believe military service is a prerequisite for politics, but I do believe in it as a prereq for being a fucking hawk.
7. Legalize it.
8. Mostly a bunch of social clubs and feel-good shit these days. Probably always was.
9. Govt intervention ok..."tragedy of the commons" and shit.
10. Go tell a Vietnamese or Hmong immigrant in central CA that affirmative action is fair.
11. More like a plague of diagnosis.
12. Legalize and tax.
13. Same old shit. Read Gibbon.

Who else saw C3P0 from Starwars riding that horse?

>>926292

He doesn't even look slightly like 3PO, what are you even smoking.

>1. President Obama

Better than McCain/Palin. Aggrevates me that people think he's black.
>2. Women's rights and the issue of sexism

Women can't really be equals if they have to be given all of their rights.
>3. Class relations

It's every man for himself.

>4. Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws

I can't stand guns myself but I can understand having a single shotgun or handgun for home defense. Having dozens of rifles/handguns is silly
.
>5. War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today)

Silly. It's nothing short of a wonder that first world countries engage in warfare in an age of diplomacy. It had its uses in centuries past though when weak and indecisive leaders had to be removed.

>6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society
A modern force for homeland defense should be all that is needed for a first world country.

>7. Abortion

Freedom of choice should not be impinged upon because of the whinging of a few religious zealots.

>8. Religion

It's bullshit.

>9. The environment

It should be protected and alternative clean energy sources should be seriously invested in and not just talking points for politicians.

>10. Affirmative action and race relations

Fuck Affirmative action. The best person getting the job is as American as it gets. Giving a person a job solely because of their race is detrimental to society. Asians are the only minority group that I can really tolerate.

>12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise

Marijuana should be legalized and sold and taxed by the government. Put convicted non-violent offenders of harder drugs into rehabilitation and don't jam them into a prison.

>13. Politics today vs. in the past

It seems a lot less cutthroat now then it was back then; which is a shame because that all seemed very interesting. Also, the man with the most money and corporate sponsors wins.

I hate survey threads.

1.) Hasn't done anything meaningful yet.
2.) I believe in equality, blah blah blah.
3.) Rich people hog all the money and poor people bitch about it incessantly. This isn't going to change.
4.) I believe a responsible adult has the right to a weapon. If I thought keeping guns away from people would stop violence, I might say otherwise, but I know that's a pipe dream.
5.) Sometimes necessary, but never as often as it happens and rarely done well.
6.) It's as important as ever, but they shouldn't be so big. Militaries today should amount to glorified border patrols in most cases.
7.) I refuse to comment on this. There is no correct answer.
8.) I'm Christian, but if you stay out of my face then so will I.
9.) It smells like nicotine.
10.) It's pathetic that we still need this in this day and age.
11.) Society has always been plagued by mental illness, the difference is that now we call it mental illness instead of demonic possession and get people help instead of stoning them.
12.) Legalize stupid bullshit like marijuana, LSD and other harmless drugs. Keep the hard stuff off the streets.
13.) There's no difference. Never has been. Any politican competent enough to get himself elected is going to be a complete scumbag.

1. I Hate niggers
2. Doesn't effect me
3. Why cant we all just get along?
4. 2nd amendment is a good idea
5. Pointless in all cases
6. I wish it had no role
7. Go for it
8. dumb
9. Important shit
10. I like everyone but niggers
11. Sounds cruel but I think people with serious degenerative and fatal diseases should not be allowed to have children.
12. Should be regulated by the states
13. Politics haven't changed.

>>926371

>Why cant we all just get along?

because niggers, if I read your post aright

>1. President Obama

Didn't turn out to be the liberal I voted for. Very disappointed with him so far.

>2. Women's rights and the issue of sexism

A very real problem exacerbated by feminists who just want matriarchy rather than patriarchy. Real equality is a long way off.

>3. Class relations

I'm a socialist. Need I say more?

>4. Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws

Second amendment is important. The idea of only criminals and the government having guns makes me uncomfortable.

>5. War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today)

Excusable only as a means of self defense.

>6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society

In the past they were used for imperialism, in the present they're used for imperialism. Where's the difference?

>7. Abortion

No one likes it, but sometimes it's necessary.

>8. Religion

Fine as long as you don't try to recruit me.

>9. The environment

Going down in flames and we're never going to do enough to stop it.

>10. Affirmative action and race relations

I don't like affirmative action. I feel like jobs/placements in University should always go to the more skilled applicant and basing the decision on race/gender is a step backwards as far as equality is concerned.

>11. The current plague of mental illness in our society including disorders and diseases such as Asperger's/Autism, OCD, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy etc.
.
I don't know much about this issue.

>12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise

Should all be legal and the legal ones should be cheaper.

>13. Politics today vs. in the past

About the same. Rich liars with corporate sponsorship.

1. FUCK YEAH, though I'll always be partial to eloquent speakers
2. Glass ceiling does exist but we are on the right path to eliminating it in the coming decades
3. Shit trickles down
4. Full registration of firearms, but no restrictions on weapon types (yes this means no one likes me)
5. FUCK YEAH
6. wut?
7. FUCK YEAH
8. FUCK NO
9. Is fucked, though we've still got a couple hundred years
10. Fuckin' Irish
11. Those suck and are why the NIH needs more funding, like a lot
12. Legalize LSD, ecstasy, weed, and shrooms, remove jail sentences for possession of the rest
13. More explicitly divided, no more Senators coming across the aisle to go to a pub and get shit-faced together.

>>926572

>Legalize LSD, ecstasy,

I like the way you think.

We should chill.

>>926575
Sadly I don't partake in any of those. I'm actually getting my Master's in Science Policy and may wind up advocating these things on a serious level. As such I want to be able to stand in front of Congressmen and say my stances are based entirely on science and not personal experiences/beliefs.

>>926590
I think I should respect that you don't plan to do them anyway and just lie about it like anyone else might. Here is my tentative respect

1. President Obama
>average president, though I think people overlook a lot of his faults because he's black and a democrat
2. Women's rights and the issue of sexism
>I'm all for gender equality, but feminism increasingly seems to me an excuse for women to create more drama and get whatever they want
3. Class relations
>I am a member of the human race. I see no reason not to treat everybody with respect, and I also see no reason not to expect people to not act like barbarians.
4. Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws
>The right to defend oneself is a natural one. It cannot be revoked.
5. War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today)
>99.9% barbaric and pointless
6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society
>National defense as opposed to national offense
7. Abortion
>fine, if its before a certain time (I'm not qualified to say when that time is). That people can get abortions in the third trimester sickens me.
8. Religion
>would be better off without
9. The environment
>its the only one we've got, lets try not to fuck it up, yeah?
10. Affirmative action and race relations
>affirmative action is still racism.
11. The current plague of mental illness in our society including disorders and diseases such as Asperger's/Autism, OCD, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy etc.
>Combining Aspergers, ADHD, OCD; and down syndrome, cerebral palsy in the same list.
>Latter are illnesses like any other
>former a symptom of the disease of community-rot
12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise
>my body, my choice, as long as I don't harm anyone else while under the influence.
13. Politics today vs. in the past
>More people are understanding that both sides are shit and this is a good thing

13. Very boring. I miss pistol duels.

1. President Obama - Screwed by an absolutely retarded populace. The idiot (Market always prevails derp) masses not getting healthcare killed all his political capital for no reason.
2. Women's rights and the issue of sexism. Women are different than men, their minds work differently, and they usually dont have the selfishness and greed necessary for excelling at the highest levels big business. To put simply, women have more than equal rights right now.
3. Class relations - this is complex, but in a sense I agree that its the uneducated (the poor) and the greedy manipulative liars (the rich)I have a problem with. I believe in fascism where if you provide good for society you are rewarded and put where you are most fit. A meriticracy of helping the people as opposed to helping the shareholders making more money.
4. Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws - this is a smokescreen issue. Its utterly stupid, and is only important to those legions of idiot gun owners who care more about owning a murder weapon than people starving to death. Those that would literally rather kill poor people in other countries (if they could get away with it) as opposed to have their guns taken.
5. War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today). War has it uses, I believe in war for real principles like we supposedly went to iraq war. My problem with the iraq war and other american wars is not that they failed, or were wasteful, or arrogant. It was that they were created to support capitalism. They were greedy evil wars. Most wars are like that, but if you actually are fighting for something noble I have no problem with war.
6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society - hasnt changed much, although now because of private enrollment you are guarenteed that the military is full of idiots who love their country unconditionally or they wouldnt have joined.

7. Abortion - smokescreen nissue
8. Religion - Read the gun right issue. Fuck you christians, you arent persecuted. Its only important because its hijacked several countries because ungodly hypocrites think its gods will that they run shit and make the rules.
9. The environment - capitalism inevitably kills the environment, it needs to be fixed.
10. Affirmative action and race relations - black people as a whole are more stupid. However i voted for obama. I do believe there are differences in the races, but they dont matter, I believe in a meritocracy. Persecute the stupid and vile.
11. The current plague of mental illness in our society including disorders and diseases such as Asperger's/Autism, OCD, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy etc. Governmont or business shouldnt pay one red cent to accomidate them. its a drain on society. dont let them reproduce either. ADHD and sometimes aspergers are usually made up.
12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise - marajuana is a smokescreen issue. hard drugs should not be legal. Look what opium did to china, you think they are better off with it illegal?
13. Politics today vs. in the past Past was better only because it evolved. New ideas were created instead of DERP capitalism is the closest thing to heaven on earth. Political thought has died, and advancement has died.

I must also ad that it is a sign of our idiot populace that even the so called "smart" ones on lit can articulate their responses to these sometimes complex issues with soundbites and feel ok with it. I am disappoint.

1. Hard to tell. He hasn't done anything that really irked me yet, but nothing especially amazing either. He might just be another decent President, not the best or worst one ever, like everyone wants to call him.
2. Some people stretch it out of proportion, and I hate a lot of the modern day organizations fighting for it. It's a movement that's already accomplished almost all of its goals and is really getting off track now. For instance, why the fuck do I see women's rights organizations lobbying for censorship on the pretense that any piece of entertainment that portrays a female figure negatively or in a negative sexual situation is somehow sexist?
3. Shit sucks, but I don't know what we're gonna do about it.
4. I support the right to defend yourself and to purchase the weapons that enable you to do so. Less big brother government, please.
5. I can't support war in almost any case.
6. No opinion, except that I'd like to see defense spending reduced.
7. Support
8. Atheist, but religion can bring both good and bad things to society, so long as people aren't zealots.
9. Support alternative energy and reducing emissions, but don't give a fuck about the movement to save all the cutest animal species.
10. Affirmative action sucks.
11. Overdiagnosed, and overtreated. If your kid has trouble paying attention, drugging him up isn't the answer. That kind of treatment should be saved for extreme cases.
12. Marijuana needs to be legalized, but the soul destroying shit is right where it needs to be. I'd actually like to see Tobacco banned.
13. Sucks now, and sucks back then. The people who want to rule are rarely the people who SHOULD rule.

1.
i've not followed washington politics enough to judge.
2. common sense
3. class animosity should be a policy issue, especially upper mid class arrogance. oppress them!
4. no right to individual ownership of arms.
5. national-strategic thinking is a self fulfilling prophesy. need pan-human perspective.
6. see 5. the so called "justifications" are self perpetuating. militaries as a whole survive by causing neg. externality for everyone else.
7. hurr
8. cultural evolution cannot be forced or planned. it will be what it is.
9. not an extreme environmentalist. developing world development comes first.
10. yes to aa, however, not a race issue. should be a policy issue where the problem is encouraging general social mobility, i.e. class, neighborhood types.
11. plague? hurr. a lot of abnormal function people have existed, new thing is that people are starting to discover a problem. have not thought too deeply on this one. issue of nurture in society.
12. legalize lifestyle drugs. serious attempt to see drugs as a social problem rather than a moral problem. see chicago gangland
13. institutions with rational (ie cognitive, not the normative rational) content more important. including govt planning, law, corporate bodies etc. plenty of opportunities for people studying policy to introduce a top down revolution, if they are creative and cared enough.

>>926675
> A meriticracy of helping the people as opposed to helping the shareholders making more money.

Are you implying that shareholders are not people?

1 - Corporate Stooge. Looks good because our last president was a joke.

2 - Patriarchy is the proper order of things. Feminist agitation only makes women more unhappy and society more miserable.

3 - Hierarchy is good. Hierarchy based on money lending, financial trickery, and a culture of money worship is a disgrace. Our society hates the poor, our rich hate the poor. The elite have divorced themselves from their traditional duty of providing for the less fortunate.

4 - A man who cannot defend his own person is a slave.

5 - Any war that is not waged in self-defense is unjust. Our war in Afghanistan is just, our war in Iraq is unjust.

6 - Militarism is not an American tradition. It needs to be done away with. We have no need for a standing army during peace time.

7 - free market eugenics

8 - The west is spiritually dead, it is a non-issue

9 - Our way of life is unsustainable, there are too many people on this planet fucking it up beyond belief. All harmful effects of the industrial revolutions of the last 200 years must be undone.

10 - Sink or swim.

11 - A result of the destruction of all traditional values by a combination of consumerism, materialism, and liberalism. We believe in nothing, we have no societal bonds, and we work people do death in unfulfilling jobs. No shit people are mentally sick.

12 - Our policies do not work. End of story. I do not have a ready solution, but government regulation seems the most feasible.

13 - Same shit as always. Politicians are the scum of the earth.

1. bush lite (a bad thing)
2. equality and nothing more
3. free market will fix it
4. all good
5. only for the benefit of a few, horrible for most
6. still pretty bad
7. pro choice
8. personally atheist, don't care about others
9. a real problem which the free market will fix
10. affirmative action is an awful idea
11. all real except for maybe ADHD
12. legalize them all
13. has always been shit

> President Obama
Too early to tell. A great spokesperson that seems genuinely concerned for his country on the surface. Then again I'm a bit cynical when it comes to people in high authority so I'm inclined to believe that he's yet another WASP puppet, simply put there to look all nice and tidy and to cheer you/us up after what they did with Bush and their cronies.

>Women's rights and the issue of sexism
Feminism today seems to be more about looking for battles where there are none to be found while ignoring all the obvious problems that women are often creating for themselves by how they present themselves in popular media.
That said, I'm pro-equality. I feel as both women's and men's rights are taking a backslide these days, and we have no gender to blame but our own.

>Class relations
Too many incompetent WASPs or their modern day equivalents in power positions that they did not earn and can not handle. The divide between those who have and those who have not is, I think, created by old farts with old attitudes that refuse to put down the reigns and die and their metaphorical and literal offspring that, even when they have benign intentions, do more harm than good.

>Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws
Not against basic hand guns or hunting rifles, but it should be harder than it currently is for a civilian to obtain the former, if only so its easier for the system to spot any ill intentions. Alternatives that should be easier to obtain, such as stun-guns, should be promoted. The way I see it, the problem lies mostly with the scare mongering media that promotes the idiea that killing machines = protection. Automatics and semi-automatics have no place outside a shooting range or a war-zone and should be banned.

>>926711
Yes I am saying that stockholders arent people. 65% of stocks are owned by other companies. The remaining stocks are overwhelmingly owned by rich people. The retirement savings and pensions of the average consumer are paltry compared to the amazing ownership by greedy rich superfluous men

1. Like all presidents, he's got problems. Seems like a decent fellow, though.
2. That people can be sexist for things like hiring someone for a job still boggles my mind. Not even practical considerations but simply that women are somehow unfit. The mindset seems impossible to me.
3. Someone else already answered this rather nicely. It's now more about education than it is a wealth difference.
4. Self-defense is the right of every human being.
5. War is bad. Not sure what else needs to be said.
6. In the past, the military was a tool of conquest. Today, it's a tool of defense. It'd take a while to expand upon that further.
7. Pro-life.
8. Keep it personal.
9. Needs preservation.
10. A touchy subject. See point 2, though, with the necessary words replaced.
11. Aspergers isn't a disease or disorder. You can function perfectly fine with it, if you learn to adapt.
12. What you do with your body is your business.
13. Too long to detail.

>>926781
>War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today)
Humanity at its worst. A way of giving up. There's no just war, even when it's necessary and fought in defense. Dehumanizing and victimizing to all but those who are too far away in their towers to view the situation in any other way than a statistical chess game. But I'm hopeful that its existence is only temporary in our evolutionary process, as I view humanity as a bridge between animal and something greater.

>The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society
The same, even though the justification and the battlefield changes. The empire never ended.

>Abortion
I'm pro, but the state should clearly intervene if an individual is using them as one would use a birth control.

>Religion
Spirituality monopolized. I've nothing against private or open source religion but all forms of organized religion have had more to do with political population control and power games than a genuine desire for good. Religious ideas and philosophy fascinate me, the fascism in which they've been imposed upon us during the ages does not.
Personally, I'm an agnostic atheist bordering on theological noncognitivism but I used to be deeply religious so my fascination lingers.

>The environment
I have a feeling that it's better at adapting to our impact upon it than we'll ever be at adapting to its impact on us, but more care is needed if we want to progress our standards of living.

>>926930

>Affirmative action and race relations
In a better world we'd look at the whole race thing as one looks at a differing hair color. That said, affirmative action should be limited to cases only were it's pretty much clear that the group's rights in question has been violated. A problem arises when used by crusading politician and corporations with ulterior motives other than to progress those who've been wronged.

>The current plague of mental illness in our society including disorders and diseases such as Asperger's/Autism, OCD, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy etc.
I'm conflicted on the issue. As someone suffering from a mild nerve condition that influences my thought process somewhat, I've tasted more anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications than I can name. But those meds had side psychological side-effects that made matters even worse for me. So, a few years back, I decided to quit them. Best decision I've ever taken and I've found that healthier living is more efficient than all thees years of therapy and opiates. That said, I do know people that wouldn't function without them, and it's good to know that I might have options should my mental health deteriorate in the future.

>Drugs, illegal and otherwise
Should be legalized used and cautiously. I'm not against any so called soft-drugs legalization personally but their appeal fail to grab me personally.
I am a social drinker but I'm seriously considering leaving that habit behind since a night of binge drinking has obvious negative effects on ones health.

1. He'll never live up to the hype, but i'd like him to. Not being American, the world feels a lot nicer with him in power.
2. Why isn't our society equal yet?
3. See above.
4. Removing firearms from the populace doesn't remove gun crime, but it makes it a shit-ton harder. People should be allowed to defend themselves, but retaliation after you have defended yourself isn't ok.
5. War can have positive outcomes but is still essentially evil and should be avoided at all costs.
6. The military should be there for defensive purposes and not to assert foreign policy.
7. Pro-choice
8. Live and let live atheist. I have no problem with your faith until it gets in the way of other people's lives.
9. ...preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.
10. Again, why are we not equal yet?
11. Ignoring the fact that learning disabilities and motor and chromosomal disorders are not mental illnesses I don't believe we have a plague of mental illness. Society is simply more aware of these conditions because those afflicted with them aren't shut away in institutions anymore.
12. Legalise, regulate, tax. Turning drugs from an illicit operation into a regulated and monitored business like alcohol generates tax revenue and provides a safe supply to users. It frustrates me that substances are banned on moral grounds rather than health. Outright prohibition does nothing.
13. Twas ever thus.

>>926930

>Affirmative action and race relations
In a better world we'd look at the whole race thing as one looks at a differing hair color. That said, affirmative action should be limited to cases only were it's pretty much clear that the group's rights in question has been violated. A problem arises when used by crusading politician and corporations with ulterior motives other than to progress those who've been wronged.

>The current plague of mental illness in our society including disorders and diseases such as Asperger's/Autism, OCD, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy etc.
I'm conflicted on the issue. As someone suffering from a mild nerve condition that influences my thought process somewhat, I've tasted more anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications than I can name. But those meds had side psychological side-effects that made matters even worse for me. So, a few years back, I decided to quit them. Best decision I've ever taken and I've found that healthier living is more efficient than all thees years of therapy and opiates. That said, I do know people that wouldn't function without them, and it's good to know that I might have options should my mental health deteriorate in the future.

>Drugs, illegal and otherwise
Should be legalized and used cautiously. I'm not against any so called soft-drugs legalization personally but their appeal fail to grab me personally.
I am a social drinker but I'm seriously considering leaving that habit behind since a night of binge drinking has obvious negative effects on ones health.

1. socialist...i.e. in direct opposition to the classical liberalism the US was built on.
2. everyone is equal under the law, and has been for a while now, so the bitching gets old.
3. lolol. the entire metaphor is overrated...most of the rich aren't a fixed class, neither are most of the poor. if you can't make money, it's probably by choice.
4. self defense is a right, it's wrong to ban tools for exercising rights.
5. best avoided, sometimes necessary
6. the same...although historically, todays military is rather small. that's fine, we don't need a big one.
7. if life starts with the mind, abortion prior to it is fine, and after it is probably murder. IIRC, the brain develops near the end of the 3rd month.
8. it can have good effects, but bad ones are more common.
9. FFS, stop dumping shit.
10. the way to stop discrimination is to stop it, not give special privileges to the formerly oppressed.
11. it's not new, we just know more about it. autism isn't exactly a disorder either.
12. ideally, legalize them, but I'd never use anything harder than pot.
13. meet the new boss, same as the old.

>>927006

>IIRC, the brain develops near the end of the 3rd month.

You do not. Brain development begins by week 4-5, around the time of the first missed period. By week 7, basic elements of the brain have already developed, and, by week 9, the fetus already responds to external stimuli.

In short, by the 2nd month or so, the earliest time an abortion can be performed, the fetus already has basic brain activity. It's minor, certainly, but it's still there.

>>927071

The existence of a brain is naturally not grounds for anything. Ants have brains and we kill them all the time. The important thing is consciousness, and that doesn't develop until well after birth, let alone the first months of pregnancy.

>>927106

Babies cry in their native language. Your argument is invalid.

http://www.livescience.com/culture/091105-baby-language.html

>>927117

..and this is relevant how? Naively responding to external stimuli does not constitute consciousness.

>>927071
knew my bio was rusty. of course consciousness and reasoning ability are important, but when in doubt, I think we should err on the side of safety.

>>927006

>President Obama
>1. socialist...i.e. in direct opposition to the classical liberalism the US was built on.

u dumb. pic related

>>927137

It shows that the baby is learning, and remembering, before birth. That's a consciousness, however limited it might be.

Still, if you want to go as far to say that consciousness as defined by self-awareness is the necessity for personhood, doesn't that mean there is nothing immoral about abandoning babies to die of exposure?

>>927149

Yep.

I dont understand why people are defending Obama. He acted like he was going to fix American and all of its problems when he was running, why would you expect anything less of him when he's in office?

>>927937
Because he's not Wonder Woman. Hes just a man, or more likely, a puppet.

>>927221

>doesn't that mean there is nothing immoral about abandoning babies to die of exposure?

Yep.

if by, /r9k/ is conservative/ you mean /r9k/ are a bunch of whiner virgins, then yes

>>927937

Not only is he just one man, but he doesn't write legislation. That's up to Congress. I'm sorry if you expected him to fix everything by his first mid-term, but 8 years of spending like a drunken sailor on two wars and lowering the United States' reputation in the eyes of most of the rest of the world is going to take time to reverse. Especially when unexpected shit like oil spills come up. At least he can formulate complete sentences. That alone is an upgrade from Bush.

>learn how the govt works before you criticize

>>927937

Did he really? The only promises I remember were coming from college kids doing grassroots campaigning for him.

1. Another asshole.
2. I ain't got nothing against women.
3. Bleh.
4. Guns are fun and can serve as a crime deterrent. If you are so dumb that you leave your gun where your kids can get it or you accidentally kill yourself, natural selection has taken place.
5. A group has to defend itself.
6. Same old shit
7. I'm not one to tell someone else what to do with their bodies, enforcing laws against it would do a lot more harm anyway.
8. I have no use for it, others may.
9. I like it.
10. Since I'm white in Texas, does affirmative action work for me?
11. Everyone has problems.
12. See: 7
13. Same old shit.

>1. President Obama
He sucks too much corporate cocks, he is just continuing Bush's old policies. The healthcare bill was shit too, it was just insurance reform.

>2. Women's rights and the issue of sexism
Gender is irrelevant, intelligence is what matters

>3. Class relations
The bourgeoisie control all the wealth and only exist to exploit the working class. They are leaches that must be eliminated from modern society.

>4. Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws
People are so crazy about guns, they can do what they want

>5. War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today)
War is only acceptable if we are being attacked or horrible HORRIBLE atrocities are being committed and must be stopped
Otherwise it is just a tool for few to get richer

>6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society
Military has too much focus. We should be focused on helping our own people, not killing others.

>7. Abortion
Freedom to choose

>8. Religion
You can believe whatever you want, as long as you don't impose your beliefs on others

>9. The environment
If humans want to have a future, we should research ways to not destroy the environment
Not doing whatever makes the most profit

>10. Affirmative action and race relations
Affirmative action is hypocrisy, we should focus on who ever would be best for the job regardless.

>11. The current plague of mental illness in our society including disorders and diseases such as Asperger's/Autism, OCD, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy etc.
We should do more research on the causes and how to prevent it

>12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise
All drugs should be legal. Prohibition just causes more crime

>13. Politics today vs. in the past
We need to more toward the future, what helps people the most
It's not about right and left, it's about moving up and down
We need to move up, improve our previously failed policies

1. Pretty much Bush isn't he? Pro military, pro war on drugs, pro corporate handouts.
2. I like women.
3. Some people make more money, some people are more educated. That's life.
4. Are a tool.
5. Are usually pointless or for despicable reasons.
6. Fuck em.
7. In the first trimester. After that it get's pretty gross and just unpleasant. Withholding any prescriptions.
8. It's not for me.
9. I love nature.
10. I hate niggers, for the most part.
11. I have some of those.
12. I love em.
13. I don't give even the slightest fuck.

1. Obama is just a talking head
2. Sexism is one of the biggest obstacles to human development
3. Off with their heads
4. Guns should only be available for suicide
5. what is it good for?
6. The military has always been a tool of state or elite oppression, this will never change.
7. Abortion should be available on demand, for free
8. Religion was a lot better when it was more mysterious
9. Personally, I welcome the destruction of the ecosystem
10. I don't believe in race, and I think racism is a ''divide and conquer'' tactic, and really effective at that
11. The development of a new alienated class, one that could potentially include everyone
12. I do drugs.
13. Politics are a diversion, and only morons care about politics

1. Got dealt a bad hand.
2. Both sexes should be equal, period.
3. Capitalist society, deal.
4. I don't believe there should be laws on what I can and can't own (within reason, inb4 durr nuclear bombs and ebola).
5. Sometimes necessary, but rarely.
6. The military and "society" should have nothing to do with one another.
7. Pro-choice
8. The one thing holding us back as a species.
9. I try to do my part. Not sure where I stand on laws and regulations concerning it.
10. Against affirmative action, for common decency, which precedes anything to do with race.
11. Big Pharma myths.
12. Legalize it all. The worst things about drugs exist because they are illegal.
13. Mudslinging then, Mudslinging now (with easier access to distribution of ideas).

>>928047
Contradictions, contradictions everywhere.

1. President Obama
>He's like every other politician. He proposed more than he could possibly achieve because he knows the public thinks that the president has more power than he actually does. See: Health Care.
2. Women's rights and the issue of sexism
>I think patriarchy has had its time and the sun and it's time for equality. We have evolved beyond sheer brutality and war as a means of expressing a need for change. We should listen to what women have to say. We've done our best to oppress them and still they have flourished.
3. Class relations
>This is tough. I think all people are equal, but I know that everyone has a different opinion on this, and mine is no more right than theirs. Taxation should be more fair when it comes to what is a realistic max number of profit a person or company can make. Money doesn't "trickle down", the poorest people are the ones who do the most common and needed jobs like construction, cleaning, manual labor, etc. No class should be "better" than another, just different.
4. Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws
>I love guns. I think anyone who has shown they are responsible (through taking classes, kind of like drivers ed, and maintaining a peaceful police record) should have every right to own however many guns as it pleases them. Once you show any sort of aggression or malice, say a battery charge by a girlfriend or road rage, you lose every right to owning a firearm though. If you can't control your anger, you are not responsible enough to own a gun.
...

>>928072
Ah I see you subscribe to the notion that human beings should have the least amount of dimensions possible, so that we can be easily categorized and exterminated.

>>928078
>On self-defense: if someone hits, hurts, or threatens you with intent to seriously harm you, you should be able to defend yourself in any means you feel necessary. If that's gouging out their eyes and slicing their guts open, so be it.

5. War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today)
>It should be obsolete. Violence is barbaric and should no longer be given into as an urge. Why is it when we kill each-other it's a crime, but when it's "other" people, it's a heroic act? There are better ways to solve conflicts than war.
6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society
>I think the military is seriously overpopulated in the United States. It's also concentrated far too heavily in certain areas, creating a military-industrial complex propping up local economies. There are entire industries based off of war profiteering. It is unpatriotic and sick to kill American men and women for the sake of empire building, revenge, or greed.
7. Abortion
>The most common surgery in the US? Of course it should be completely legal. Why would I want a woman, who doesn't want to have a child, to become a mother? They would fucking suck at it most likely and their kid would grow up with issues. There is already a serious population explosion issue, there are far too many people in the world for Earth to sustain. Abortions for whoever wants them, and it should be like any other surgery.

>>928084
8. Religion
>Not for me, but I don't mind it when it is aimed at the betterment of humanity as a whole. When people like the Salvation Army collect money for the poor and have soup kitchens, it really warms my heart. Things like homophobia, racism, ignorance, misogyny, and other general prejudices are mixed in with religion it really is upsetting. Sects who directly follow thousand-year-old texts word for word seem odd to me, as people have changed so much since then, but I'm not an expert on religion by any means.
9. The environment
>Vital to our survival, obviously. We should do everything we can to sustain, protect, and rebuild the environment. Especially in the US where we have 4% of the global population yet use 25% of the total energy. It's insane! For people who don't like being at the mercy of the local grid for their power, or don't want city water, it's a great way to not only save money but achieve their other wants. If the environment is taken care of our health is better because pollution is lower, the price of energy is cheaper, it's easier to produce food, and it's just more beautiful so people are happier.
10. Affirmative action and race relations
>Racism has to stop. It is a ridiculous issue. The color of your skin has nothing to do with your culture besides who your ancestors were. People need to see each other as just that, people. Terms like "African-American" are stupid because it implies that black people are not just "Americans",

>>928090
11. The current plague of mental illness in our society including disorders and diseases such as Asperger's/Autism, OCD, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy etc.
>They've always been here, we just didn't have the science to separate them, study them, and theorize how to work with them.
12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise
>Rehabilitative services should be everywhere and viewed positively. A recovered addict (of any kind) should be treated with respect for their ability to beat an addiction, not treated like a shady individual. I think there needs to be far more government and third-party done research on all of them on their affects and medical uses. I personally think all drugs should be avaliable by prescription for medical use, and ones with only non-lethal properties should be avaliable by government production. If you have only one production source, the government, you can assure the non-lethal properties and safety of the plants and chemicals. Also avoiding any drug trafficking violence.
13. Politics today vs. in the past
>Politics have always been dirty but I do hope that they will become less polarized as human society tries to progress. I think women and inter-cultural society can really help with this. The less we "otherize" each other and the more we appreciate one another, trying to improve us all, the better off we will be. We must progress as a whole.

>>928080
The Alex Jones is strong with this idiot.

>>928101
Dorothy, you shouldn't hang out with strawmen so much, it is holding you back. you could possibly give me a refutation, perhaps. I don't mind discussing this.

>>927988
Immigration reform, health care reform, pulling troops out of the middle east, etc. etc.
>>927976
How do complete sentences do anything for America? I didnt expect anything from Obama when he went into office.

>1. President Obama
I hate him almost as much as I hated Bush. Maybe even more.
>2. Women's rights and the issue of sexism
Most women are naturally submissive to men and there's nothing wrong with that.
>3. Class relations
What do you mean?
>4. Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws
I haven't made up my mind yet.
>5. War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today)
Most war is evil but there is such a thing as a just war.
>6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society
Which past society? Which modern society?
>7. Abortion
Completely opposed
>8. Religion
I want to be Roman Catholic (my familial faith) but I don't have any "rational" certainty about its tenets. I want to believe in it firmly but I don't, and I'm not sure if I ever will, and I don't know if God is okay with that or not.
>9. The environment
I like it just fine.
>10. Affirmative action and race relations
Opposed to affirmative action. 'Race relations' is vague as hell. All of your questions are vague as hell.
>11. The current plague of mental illness in our society including disorders and diseases such as Asperger's/Autism, OCD, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy etc.
They've always been there, we're just better at finding them now.
>12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise
Recreational psychoactive drugs are a waste of time and we'd be better off without them. Modern pharmacology is fine and dandy.
>13. Politics today vs. in the past
What does that even mean?

/lit/ - politics

>Abortion
>Completely opposed

>>928121
>>928078
>>928084
>>928095
>Pro-equality
>Loves Guns
>Hates War
>Loves the Environment
>Pro-Abortion
>Not Anti-religion

>>928131

It's sort of important to have a leader that people will listen to and respect when he opens his mouth.

And in regard to the other things you've listed: Health care reform was passed. Not perfect, but he has done more to get the ball rolling than any of his predecessors.

He's at least taken responsibility for the War in Afghanistan, acknowledged his part in determining the fate of the troops to the soldiers and removed almost all of the troops from Iraq.

And immigration reform will come to a head when the Arizona law comes before the Supreme Court. In that regard, he's elected 2 justices that will get that shit done. Those two will also be pivotal when Prop 8 and Marijuana reform face the high court. All the while he's had to deal with the other party obstructing almost every one of his party's measures and people labeling him everything from a nazi to a socialist. This week the Democrats will push through a law that creates a regulatory force from the Federal Reserve, tasked with keeping their eye on investment bankers (something Regan did away with in the 1980s)

That's actually pretty impressive for the Executive Branch. Is it perfect? No. There's a lot more that he could be doing. Guantanamo is still open, the bailouts were necessary but most likely mishandled, and I wish he'd grow some balls and tell Republicans to stop crying all the time. But overall, he's more impressive than any of the other schmucks to hold the office in my lifetime.

"Let us realize the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice." -MLK

Whole systems don't change overnight. Except in revolution and trust me, 4chan, for all of it's braggery and toughguy attitudes online, wouldn't last a day in armed revolution.

tl;dr Obama's not that bad. Stop being dramatic.

>>925653
>By "conservative" in both cases I of course mean "batshit insane" and "in pure denial of obvious facts."

Why, you sound well-informed and totally not underaged!

>>928302

I think he's referring to the "trollololol" brand of conservatism you find on /r9k/ and /k/ (and /new/ and /int/ and /b/).

>>928300
It's more important to make decisions that reflect the wants/needs of the people you represent. If Bush hadnt been able to read, but he made good decisions, who would have cared?

Health care reform: Not perfect? How bout 100% necessary? How bout the fact that it still doesn nothing to control the ever increasing costs of prescription medication (pretty much the prime factor for elevated costs in the health care industry).

That's great and all, but what he promised and what he delivered were two very different things. And lets not even bring up the McChrystal fiasco.

Zzzz dont even get me started on this topic. He's ass fucked himself on the whole thing. Suing the state of AZ? Not backing AZ politically? Oh that's right, he doesnt want to be too controversial because he has another election to try and win.

I'm not saying he hasnt done anything, I just totally disagree with how he's done it. It's a lot of crowd pleasing speeches and then very little or very different actions.

>>928631
>It's more important to make decisions that reflect the wants/needs of the people you represent.

No. The U.S. is a republic, not a democracy.

/v/ is also pretty liberal, believe it or not.

1. eh... I won't lie. I had high hopes, but now that I look back I understand that there was no reason to believe that he would be some kind of savior. It's been a nice respite from Bush though.
2. I think we've got a lot to do in this area.
3. I hate rednecks.
4. While I don't think that the 2nd amendment should be taken literally, I don't see what's wrong with owning a gun.
5. War is something that happens, someone like me can't do a thing about it. I support my nation in times of war, I guess, but I don't support war.
6.The more I think about it the more I feel as though it's all the same shit.
7. I think it's wrong, but a woman should have the rights to her own body.
8. I'm a Christian, but please for God's sake don't be such pricks. I'm looking at you fundies.
9. Biodiversity is important. We need to stop acting as though we own the planet.
10. Affirmative action is baloney but I almost think that we still need it in our present state.
11. I don't really know what to think of this. I think that our incredibly swift social evolution as a species has led to some issues in our lives.
12. I don't do drugs or alcohol but a person should be able to do what they want.
13. It's all the same shit, 'cept now there's nukes!

It's funny. /v/ is like /b/'s younger brother, but /v/ is liberal and /b/ is REALLY conservative.

>>928818
It's a much younger generation of /b/tards.

>>928818

/v/ and /b/ are not liberal or conservative, they're fifteen-year olds who think racism and mysogyny are the source of all humor.

They don't hate anyone on ethical grounds, they hate anyone who they perceive as responsible for their failures in life, i.e. blacks, women, etc. That's why they are largely non-homophobic, even though being conservative would traditionally imply that they are.

War is how great leaders such as Genghis Khan, Frederick the Great, Alexander the Great, Napoleon, and the emperors of the Qin dynasty have unified and strengthened nations.

If people have to die so be it.

>>926712
>Militarism is not an American tradition

America was founded on militarism.

1. He's an alright guy, he isn't great but he is doing what he can.
2. They still aren't truly our equals, it is a sad fact. We're working on it though
3. I strongly believe in the separation of classes. Not for any moral reasons but just because I personally like it.
4. FUCK GUNS, GET RID OF THEM.
5. It's good, it's bad it's in between. Overall it tends to be counterproductive. I don't like it. It isn't ever necessary
6. To house our under achievers.
7. Choice
8. Un needed, I hate religion, i'm becoming a little less hateful towards it, but i still don't tolerate it's bigotry
9. I don't know enough to truly have an opinion about it.
10. TENSE MAN
11. Yeah, i don't know what the fuck happened between the 90's and now but the world is full of aspies now.
12. Make harmless drugs legal, keep the harmful ones illegal
13. No one really cares anymore :/

Visit /new/, shit brix.

>>929394

>I don't know what "militarism" means

>>929422
>visit /new/
>never go back

>>929394
DOHOHOHOHOHOHO. Most of the founding fathers didn't even like the idea of standing armies.

"America" was founded on slavery.

>>929476
America was founded on killing Injuns.

Abortion should be last choice, imo. I'd rather find parents for the kid like Juno. Stem cell research tho, should ttly be legal.

1. He's not Bush. I feel like he's genuinely trying to do what he thinks is best for the country. People give him too much shit for not being a miracle instant-cure for everything.
2. I think a lot still needs to change. More radical "feminists" (really most of them are misandrists misappropriating the term) have set the cause back a great deal by giving feminism a bad name. People should be people first, not men and women.
3. I'd need a more specific question.
4. Right now I'm of the opinion that, to own a firearm people should be required to be trained and licensed, just like you need a license to drive a motor vehicle. True, criminals and the like will get their hands on weapons regardless of bans/licensing/etc, but I feel like requiring some sort of training would at least ensure that (legal) gun owners know how to keep their weapons safely.
5. I don't like it, but it's not going to change any time soon.
6. Haven't thought about it enough.

>>929486
7. Should be legal. Even if I don't think I could make that choice myself if I were ever put into such a situation, it's not my place to make that decision for others. I do feel like many of the late-term bans make sense, but are often abused by religious groups and the like.
8. Organized religion is a cancer on our society, but I doubt humanity in general will ever be able to fully abandon it.
9. Needs fixing, but I think the approach to environmentalism needs to be rethought. Explain efficiency and saving energy in monetary terms and Americans, at least, are more likely to bite.
10. I feel like affirmative action just patronizes minorities, saying "there's no way you can compete with white men, so we have to give you a leg up." But at the same time I'm not sure what other options we have to help alleviate some of the inequities in the system as it is.
11. Insufficient data. Though autism isn't caused by fucking vaccines, goddamnit.
12. I have no interest in drugs or alcohol personally, but I think legalizing something fairly harmless (as far as I understand it) like pot could provide an economic boost for the country.
13. Dicks, all of them.

>>929479
Europeans killed Injuns... then Americans offed the rest of them after already having been founded...

1. Bullshit personified, but it comes with the office. I thought it was cool that he smoked and was fit though.
2. Yeah man, equal rights. Girls I know generally seem to be more productive than guys anyway.
3. We'll let the classes dictate their own relations. I do get class envy when I'm in the good part of town though.
4. I prefer them to be very very lax. I just really like my enfield. It's got this classic appeal, and is hypothetically useful.
5. Sometimes it's necessary, but usually it isn't. I subscribe to "jus in bello" but not so much "jus in bellum".
6. I probably romanticize this too much to give a legitimate answer, which may also apply to number 5.
7. Do it.
8. Do it. (or don't) I value it very much as an integral part of culture.
9. Protect it above (almost) all else. Humans are more expendable than biomes.
10. I have a relatively diverse friend group, and several of my friends who are minorities are at least as able/ intelligent as my white friends, so I find affirmative action sorta offensive.
11. Mostly a product of Western society having degraded into self-centered hypochondriacs whining and being weak and getting fat.
12. They shouldn't be illegal, for practical and moral reasons. I will occasionally indulge in their use.
13. Today the bullshit is far more refined/ subtle/ layered/ obfuscated/ complex.

I guess I couldn't say since I've no idea who this gentleman is, but he seems more conservative, what with that stern look and all.

>>925653
>Hey, /lit/, I spend a lot of time on /r9k/ and /k/, which seem to be two of the more conservative boards on 4chan
>/r9k/
>one of the more conservative boards on 4chan

I'll admit it, I am also a regular of both /r9k/ and /k/ but I still lol'ed.

and for the record

1. Nigger. Shouldn't be in office.
2. Sexism is natural, women shouldn't be able to vote.
3. Too general.
4. I believe all adults should have easy legal access to firearms.
5. A fundamental part of humanity.
6. Not specific enough.
7. Murder, should be illegal.
8. Not very religious myself, however believe all people should be able to practice any religion they wish.
9. Needs to be preserved but I don't give a fuck.
10. Eagerly awaiting the coming race war.
11. Babies born so severely damaged that they will not be able to function on their own should be killed as in the past. Letting them live is doing them no favor and parents are selfishly requiring the rest of society to care for their monster. Things like ADD are very minor in comparison to the other malfunctions you listed.
12. All drugs should be legal.
13. Fucked.

My bias: 18 y/o, American, Female, Upper Middle-Class, Jewish / Eastern-European Descent.

1. He could be doing more, as a blanket statement. I'm reserving judgement until his second term. He's a'ight.
2. I support the feminist cause, but I hate modern feminists. Dickhate =/= feminism, ladies.
3. Reaganomics done gone fucked it all up. I think we need social program reform.
4. On one hand, the right to carry a weapon is a constitutional freedom. On the other hand, if guns were universally banned, nobody would need to. I think we need to enforce the gun laws we already have, see where that goes, and adjust accordingly.
5. Necessary evil. Sometimes justified, sometimes not.
6. I think people look down on servicemen simply because they're supporting an unpopular conflict / are poor / are minorities / whatever. I find that absolutely abhorrent.
7. I wouldn't get an abortion, but I don't think it's right for the federal government to regulate what women can do with their bodies.
8. As long as it's not supported by taxpayer dollars, I don't care much. I have my beliefs, everyone else can have theirs.
9. So many of our problems could be solved by switching to ethanol. I believe oil companies have far too much power.
10. Affirmative action is unfair, but I can't argue against its abolition. White America got where it is today thanks in no small part to slave labor; until racism is completely eradicated, there will always be that debt to pay. Whites are as a group more 'qualified' for certain jobs than blacks, simply on the basis that more money in neighborhoods -> better public schools-> college -> edumacation.
11. People are as crazy as they've ever been, there's just a different standard for diagnosis now.
12. Legalize marijuana; I don't smoke, but there's no valid reason not to. All amphetamines and hallucinogens should remain illegal.
13. Same shit, different people. See also: Alexander Hamilton vs Thomas Jefferson.

1. Not terrible as far as US politicians go. Which still doesn't make him good.
2. People are people, no matter their layout downstairs.
3. After the 80s, well and truly buggered.
4. Guns should only be carried by soldiers. Nobody else has any need for them and they're lying if they say they do.
5. An extremely unpleasant part of civilisation that I don't think is ever going to go away.
6. Ideally should be for homeland defense.
7. Pro-choice.
8. Kinda religious, and religion is a very good thing unless taken too far (which it often is, sadly).
9. I seriously wish we'd stop fuckin this up so much.
10. Affirmative action is bullshit. Positive discrimination is still discrimination.
11. A by-product of society being so self-obsessed and so determined to be unique, mostly.
12. I don't do them, but if they were legal there would be a lot less interest in them.
13. Same shit, different spoon. Now everything is done for "the future" or "for change" instead of for flat-out nationalism/imperialism.

>>929799
What about those Asians? They sure are suffering as a minority. Errrr, wait a minute.

1. Totally unqualified, not a good leader. I think he expected things to just work out for him, and doesn't know what to do when they don't.
2. Women have the same rights as anyone else - the ones they can talk people into respecting.
3. Poorfag butthurt is eternal.
4. Seem to be moving in the right direction, not that I'd obey the laws if they changed.
5. People enjoy it. It will continue.
6. It's a much less vital and central institution compared to the past. Don't know if that's good or bad.
7. Don't care.
8. People enjoy it. It will continue.
9. Will be fine with us or without us.
10. If people want to hire a black dude out of guilt for what their great grandpa did, then that's their business. Just don't force me to do it too.
11. People have always been crazy, there just hasn't always been a name for every kind of crazy out there.
12. Don't care.
13. Hasn't changed a bit.

>1. President Obama
From the standpoint of a leftist, a total disappointment. I voted for Hillary in the primaries.
>2. Women's rights and the issue of sexism
The fact that women still make 70 cents to every dollar a man makes DOING THE SAME JOB is a scandal.
>3. Class relations
Americans do not realize that class is more important than race. Oprah gets her power from being Middle Class, and it's assumed by her (mostly white) audience that Middle Class-ness is more important to Oprah, because she'd have more to lose from slipping. That being said, the black underclass has no bigger enemy in America than the black bourgeoisie. Also, read Paul Fussell's book.
>4. Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws
The Heller decision was horseshit. I hope someone pops a glock in Scalia's mouth and makes a brain slushie. I speak, of course, arguendo, in case Nino is browsing /lit/.
>5. War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today)
If we'd listened to Eisenhower and dismantled the fucking military-industrial complex, I feel like the nuclear standoff would have rendered war obsolete. It is not a "necessary" condition of human society. It could be abolished, were it not for entrenched financial interests.
>6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society
The miltary has gone from "glory" and "valor" in past society to becoming the Walmart of Modern America. The employer of last resort, except your job might entail getting your ass shot off. Don't forget this. I have zero interest in militaristic values.
>7. Abortion
Being male, I'll never have one. For women I think it should be safe, legal, and rare. We should have realistic teaching about contraception. A lot of women who HAVE abortions are truly shaken by the experience.

>8. Religion
What passes for religion in America nowadays is bullshit. Mostly because you can't forcibly integrate a church. Churches should be taxed at this point due to their interference in politics. I'd be a Roman Catholic if there were still Catholics like Dorothy Day or Mother Cabrini. But there ain't. Instead we get Scalia and Mel Gibson.
>9. The environment
Overstated problem. I want to ask Al Gore what he thinks of the Maunder Minimum. I know I'm out of lockstep with the left on this one.
>10. Affirmative action and race relations
Affirmative action has done its job at this point. Most of the racism in this country comes from black people who hate white people, not vice versa. Also, blacks are 13 percent of the population---don't we waste way too much time thinking about them, and listening to them complain? The Jews were slaves in Egypt once. Guess what? They got over it. A new generation of black scholars, however, is backing away from resentment and approaching realistic solutions. Read "Acting White: The Ironic Legacy of School Desegregation" by Stuart Buck.
>11. The current plague of mental illness in our society including disorders and diseases such as Asperger's/Autism, OCD, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy etc.
Aspergers and Autism and ADHD are overdiagnosed. They probably come from overexposure to television. OCD is a reaction to societal pressures, I suspect. Downs Syndrome and CP are genetic conditions.

>12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise
All for blanket legalization, and then regulation. For example, weed should be legal everywhere for those of an age to buy tobacco. Whereas I think you should have a license to use smack or meth, and you'd have to buy it at the Post Office, which has perfected the art of driving customers away.
>13. Politics today vs. in the past
Same old same old. Richard Hofstadter anatomized Glenn Beck's paranoia 50 years ago. Americans care more about minute issues of social status (and overreaction to perceived rising or falling in status) than they do about creating a viable society. But I get my own utopian kicks from John Rawls's Theory of Justice, so feel free to disregard me, I suck cocks.

>more of an emphasis on education

lol

>>929799
>money
>better public schools-> college -> edumacation.

Nope.

>"In 1985 a federal district judge took partial control over the troubled Kansas City, Missouri, School District (KCMSD) on the grounds that it was an unconstitutionally segregated district with dilapidated facilities and students who performed poorly. In an effort to bring the district into compliance with his liberal interpretation of federal law, the judge ordered the state and district to spend nearly $2 billion over the next 12 years to build new schools, integrate classrooms, and bring student test scores up to national norms.”

The judicial branch ordered the legislative branch to spend money, and told it exactly how to do it.

>"Kansas City spent as much as $11,700 per pupil - more money per pupil, on a cost of living adjusted basis, than any other of the 280 largest districts in the country. The money bought higher teachers' salaries, 15 new schools, and such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room, television and animation studios, a robotics lab, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary, a zoo, a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal. The student-teacher ratio was 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country."

How did that turn out?

>"The results were dismal. Test scores did not rise; the black-white gap did not diminish; and there was less, not greater, integration."

>>930497
>>athens

HOLEE FUCKING SHIT

Why do you not post on /new/ anymore?

>1. President Obama

Cretinous nigger savage, black nationalist leanings, deficit spender, doesn't understand economics, worse than the cretin Bush.

>2. Women's rights and the issue of sexism

Employers should be able to hire whoever they want for whatever reason they want. 'Women's rights' is just codeword for abuse of property rights through coercion.

>3. Class relations

Doesn't exist as a concept except in the minds of leftist professors living comfortable lives in taxpayer paid tenure.

>4. Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws

100% for all of them. Especially castle law.

>5. War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today)

Bullshit and costly. Part of the human condition but unprovoked wars to set up client states in the mid east are just.... all kinds of retarded.

>6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society

Should be scaled back.

>7. Abortion

Agree with it so long as it isn't taxpayer funded. Hospitals/Clinics shouldn't be obligated to provide it/not provide it though.

>8. Religion

Humans construct narratives to understand their actions and that they don't understand, religion is just one part of this. I'm agnostic though.

>9. The environment

Fearmongering, promotes wasteful subsidy and regulations that harm thousands of entrepreneurs and workers. Environmental solutions come through capital investment in technology, not from Governments.

>10. Affirmative action and race relations

AA is not only ethically unjust, it doesn't work (see Richard Sander's report on it). 'Race relations' is just codeword for mollycoddling niggers.

>11. The current plague of mental illness in our society

Psychiatrists trying to make a quick buck. It doesn't exist. Breakdown in the traditional family has caused some degree of psychological problems though.

>12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise

Legalize them all, don't tax them. Doesn't mean an endorsement though, they're generally for retards and bums who think acoustic guitar is a good instrument.

>13. Politics today vs. in the past

Better in the past. All historical states were minarchist by our standards. More of a sense of natural order and no democracy disease/universal suffrage shit.

>>930510
I do on occasion, libs on there are soooo easy to rile up.

1. I'm Australian, but from over here it looks like he's doing okay at an impossible job.
2. Should be a non-issue - there's no good reason why women shouldn't have equal rights.
3. I'm generally for abolishing classes and an equal society and shit like that.
4. No strong opinion, except that the average American is clearly too fucking stupid to handle one.
5. Too big a topic to really cover. In general it would be nice to not have any?
6. Mixed feelings, but generally in favour of non-aggressive, non-interventionist military used for defence only.
7. Should be legal.
8. It's shit.
9. It would be nice to still have one, and if people have to make less money for that to happen that's cool with me.
10. No strong opinion.
11. I'm sure this 'plague' has been going on since forever - we just diagnose it correctly now.
12. Legalise them - prohibition doesn't work and just funds organised crime.
13. I don't think things were significantly better in the past, but I don't think things are much worse either. But y'know - I live in a sane nation where not much happens.

Polite sage.

1.He had promised many things, but he's a politician in the end. Still need to work on Asia a little more though.
2.Equality is all well and good. Femnazis need to learn that men and women cannot be truly equal. They can have equal opportunity but they still aren't equal.

3. The middle class needs to stop trying so hard. Buying all the stuff they can't afford is going to put the economy into the shitter.
4. The most important thing about weapons is not whether you can legally use them, but whether you can use them correctly and efficiently. Once everyone has got that down, there would be no gun-owning dumbass who leaves his pistol in a closet and free for his dumbass kid to take.
5. War is means to which a country acquires land and resources. It is tragic and natural.
6. The public’s opinion of the military is largely negative. As opposed to “You literally live another day to fight for your country”, it is now “Only meatheads are in the military”. It’s tragic. Such noble men and women deserve more recognition than this. Also, DADT is bullshit.
7. A loss of potential life is tragic, yet it’s not logical for every impregnated women to have their babies with the current abundance of people.
8. If it gives people something to hold on to during hard times, it’s worth keeping. If it give people the self-entitled right to hurt another human being, it’s worth dropping.
9. It isn’t such an issue compared to the unequal distribution of resources.
10. Affirmative action only seems to strengthen racism. Racist jokes aren’t funny. No exceptions.
11. Since there’s technology to cater to our every whim, people with birth defects and disorders live as opposed to being wiped out by some damn animal. Natural selection is no longer working for us.

>12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise
Government controlled and sanctioned drugs = More revenue.

>13. Politics today vs. in the past
Same bullshit.

>>929436
To put this in a less confrontational manner: militarism as I refer to it is our military-industrial complex, where the government and corporate interests feed off each other and build our army and look for reasons to use it.

Our nation was founded on the idea of a conscript army. People would be trained via militia, and then conscripted into the army in times of need. this is how a healthy Republic functions.

Our rulers discovered in the 1960s that conscription means that the population won't put up with bullshit colonial wars, so they set up our current system.

But yes, bothering to learn the meaning of "militarism" would certainly help.

>>930651
WW2 was basically the beginning of our troubles, however. It was the beginning of our permanent army presence and the connection with industry.

>>930651
It's not like idiots like you have any problem with huge government in general, you're quite happy with huge government for entitlement programs.

>>930655
I don't believe the "size" of government is relevant. There is no going back. Government size has been growing since the 1600s, at a steady pace. Those who claim to be for "small government" are liars and hypocrites. They never reduce the size of government when they come to power.

>>930658
>growing since the 1600s

Ahahaha, no. It actually remained at between 2-5% of GDP until the 20th century. Democracy is what engenders big government.

>>929135
I don't think you're familiar with /v/.

Like, at all.

>>929135
Racism and misogyny ARE funny though, anyone who says they aren't is either butthurt or simply doesn't have a sense of humour.

Funny thing is.... They're rendered even MORE funny because people like you get so incredibly irate about it all, it's fun to rile up self-righteous people.

>>930663
I didn't have spending in mind, merely power.

>>930669
Spending -is- power. People were far more free under the liberal constitutional monarchies of the early 19th century than they are today. If the state controls more of the economy, it follows that it is more powerful.

And that's not even counting the fact that until the democratic age, Kings and their noble councils/parliaments hardly ever issued central legislation (comparatively speaking as most law was based around common law) in stark contrast to today.

>1. President Obama
Meh. Another US president.
>2. Women's rights and the issue of sexism
I think women's rights was a good thing to fight for, but they won years ago, there's no need to keep pushing.
>3. Class relations
I wish we could eliminate the very bottom classes (homeless etc) ie find ways to help them get back into society properly.
>4. Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws
I've never found myself in need of a gun so I'm naturally suspicious of anyone who claims they are.
>5. War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today)
I don't like it.
>6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society
Cash drain, still, suppose it's better to be safe than sorry.
>7. Abortion
Nothing wrong with it.
>8. Religion
I don't follow any.
>9. The environment
Considering what our planet's been through, I find it laughable to think our actions have any real impact on it.
>10. Affirmative action and race relations
Only serves to fuel racism.
>11. The current plague of mental illness in our society including disorders and diseases such as Asperger's/Autism, OCD, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy etc.
As a high-functioning autistic I take offense at Asperger's "Syndrome" being considered a disease.
>12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise
I don't use them, but I don't have a problem with other people using them. I do hate drug addicts who think everyone ought to take drugs, though.
>13. Politics today vs. in the past
Not much has changed.

1. President Obama: Too sold out to Wall Street, as much as Bush was sold out to the Oil Industry.
2. Women's rights and the issue of sexism: all people should be treated with equal respect and honour. women are people, so that answers that question.
3. Class relations: the united states is today divided into rich and poor as at no time in history.
4. Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws: in the states, the right to bear arms should not be infringed. people are generally good people, and owning firearms doesn't make you a bad person. restricting handguns to people with licenses and a background check and ID is a good idea, since handguns are what criminals use. That's not to say that all people who have handguns are criminals, but it makes prudent sense to keep track of the ones that we know about.
5. War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today): is hell - but sometimes a civil war is necessary to overthrow a tyrannical government.
6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society: better the military answers to civilian government than the other way around.
7. Abortion: should be legal and covered by public health.
8. Religion: freedom of religion is up there with freedom of the press.
9. The environment: it's the only one we have, and our great grandchildren will need it as much as we do today.
10. Affirmative action and race relations: if there were no more racism, I'd be happy. unfortunately, there's always going to be some dumb assholes out there.
11. The current plague of mental illness in our society including disorders and diseases such as Asperger's/Autism, OCD, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy etc.:
12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise: many illegal drugs should be made legal. the sale of addictive drugs should remain illegal outside of medical practice.
13. Politics today vs. in the past : in the states, YOU ALL GONE CRAZY ALL THE SUDDEN.

>>930654
Connection to industry isn't as inherently problematic as people make it out to be. There are basically two kinds of defense contractors (and some will overlap) - vendors of materiel and vendors of services. Shenanigans on the materiel side usually come from congress - not the vendors (we're gonna make a jet the military doesn't need or want because it will create jobs in our district). The services side is basically just providing certain functions for cheaper (due to a more scalable work force). If you want the military to do less overall, that's fine, but as long as they are operating at a current size the private sector participation just makes things cheaper.

>>930670
Well, judging from your earlier post I think you are under the impression that I'm a big fan of inefficient liberal democracies, which isn't true.

The thing is, I am very wary of "free market" talk, because corporations are not strictly speaking products of the market. They are government sanctioned and legally protected. There is a large amount of hypocrisy and I don't favor replacing one form of tyranny with another.

Old regimes had traditional forms of social control. Local society, the church, etc. These forms of control started breaking down over 200 years ago, we can't go back because unless someone drastic happens, we will never be an agrarian society again. Rather than being pleased with the state of affairs, I am just wary of changes that could be for the worse.

>>930521
>Employers should be able to hire whoever they want for whatever reason they want. 'Women's rights' is just codeword for abuse of property rights through coercion.

God I love libertarians. It's more of a moral outrage that any form of regulation is being placed on business than a business owner denying employment based on racism or misogyny.

I still don't get why people find Obama a bad president.

>>930677
I agree with you, but regulations and shit like that only hurt small business. Look at how zoning laws drive up the cost of commercially zoned land so it makes it hard for local businesses to
compete with huge conglomerates for example. Being a small farmer has been rendered virtually impossible because of such regulations, like, literally impossible.

There are good corporations, no doubt about that, I'm not going to demonize them, they deliver a service people want. But the corporatist monolithic state we have at the moment works against the interests of small businessmen.

>>930678
God forbid people should be allowed to do what they want with their own property eh?

>business owner denying employment based on racism or misogyny

Do you know anything about law? Do you realize how much fraudulent employment tribunals cost the taxpayer every year? Consider: the government reports that job discrimination complaints against private employers increased 4 percent in 2009, to a total of 103,312, the highest level in seven years. Those filing complaints took in $510.5 million in monetary benefits. The cost this has as far as capital investment goes is staggering.

Do you realize it's virtually impossible to 'prove' discrimination one way or the other?

Do you realize you have absolutely no empirical evidence that wide-ranging employment discrimination based on race of sex exists? Oh, and no, unequal outcomes don't count. You have never even demonstrated that employer discrimination is a widespread phenomenon to begin with, not that there's anything wrong with it.

>>930678
The funny part of this is that most employers of well-compensated professionals and prestigious (i.e., income-boosting) academic programs actually make much more of an effort to promote diversity than any regulation currently requires.

>>930684
Indeed. The situation with farming is beyond fucked up.

I simply think that the military (as another poster correctly pointed out, pork barreling in Congress is a HUGE part of this) situation is not acceptable.

>>930686
Do you have any proof of this? Because as far as I was aware, the auto-industry did -not- want to be forced into using minority owned subcontractors as a matter of law, and they protested this (the SBA agreement).

If you're so convinced that diversity is spontaneous, then you wouldn't need the iron force of legislative law, regulation and the threat of coercion behind it anyway, so you inadvertently work against your own point.

>>930684
Zoning laws fuck up communities too. Means an end to the kinds of local stores you can just pop round the corner to.

>>930689
Totally agreed. Military should be downsized, brought back home and used for border protection.

>>930691
Yep, that too.

1. don't believe a single word he says. How can I trust the media to give an honest view on who he is or what his intentions are?
2. Sexism is an issue that I don't care for because I'm not a woman.
3. Well I'm middle class, so I think I got fucked on my end. Rich or poor, I won't consider you.
4. If I want a gun, then by damn I should be able to have it. Fuck your morals and fuck your ideal world.
5. War has one positive effect: death. The world is very much overpopulated, so the more stupid men willing to kill themselves over their pitiful ideals and the for the sake of war profiteers, the better.
6. They oughta rename the military to mass scale mercenaries, because that's all they are. A group of men made to carry out the needs of desires of their wealthy client by means of force.
7. If you don't want a baby, you don't have to have it. This whole argument is stupid. A fetus is not even sentient, it's technically a life but it doesn't even perceive. If you have a problem with abortion you should have a problem killing plants or bacteria, you hypocrite.
8. Keeps our pathetic species from progressing and finding real answers Fuck religion and fuck anyone who follows it.
9. Don't care. I'll be dead before shit were to even really get out of hand.
10. I don't care if you're black or brown or yellow or fucking cheese colored, you're most likely a sniveling little shit either way.
11. What is a disorder? I think the retarded ought to be put away just for the sake of saving time and allowing us to progress. I don't consider anti-social behavior a disorder in any way; if you aren't emotionally bound to others then you have one less holding you back. I don't see anything wrong with the autistic or those with asperger's; social intelligence is the lowest form of intelligence by far.
12. It's my head, I do whatever the fuck I want.
13. bullshit yesterday, bullshit today, bullshit tomorrow

>>930695

Your mother should have aborted you.

>>People were far more free under the liberal constitutional monarchies of the early 19th century than they are today.

"People were far more free". Ahhh, those lovely liberal constitutional monarchies of the early 19th century. If I recall, the model liberal constitutional monarchy--the United Kingdom--didn't abolish slavery until 1/3 of the way into the 19th century. 1833. Clearly people were FAR more free, just like you said.

Far more free! Tell that to the fucking Irish, under the "liberal constitutional monarchy" that forced the 1800 Act of Union upon them in the wake of the 1798 Wolfe Tone Rebellion.

Where do you get this horseshit view of economic and political history? Glenn Beck and Cleon Skouzen?

>>930708
Being a slave to debt and incapable of self-sufficiency is not freedom.

>>930691
I should have been more specific; I am talking about individual career opportunities. I can't argue with your auto industry example (and I know the same thing goes on in defense subcontracting) as a valid counterpoint to what I said.

And no, nothing is spontaneous, but schools have their own ideological reasons to push diversity, and for the businesses I am familiar with (consulting, marketing, finance, and legal firms) diversity is useful for PR (marketing) and recruiting - not just compliance.

>>regulations and shit like that only hurt small business. Look at how zoning laws drive up the cost of commercially zoned land so it makes it hard for local businesses to compete with huge conglomerates for example. Being a small farmer has been rendered virtually impossible because of such regulations, like, literally impossible.

Who smoked what crack and told you this bullshit? Tom DeLay? Being a small farmer is virtually impossible NOT because of "regulations". Being a small farmer is virtually impossible because of AMALGAMATION AND FUCKING CAPITAL. "Agribusiness" is what killed the family farm, not fucking government regulation.

Blame corporations like ConAgra and Monsanto for killing the old agrarian American idyll. That's not called "government regulation", you moron. That's called unrestricted capitalism.

Or, as people like you would prefer to term it, Schumpeterian "creative destruction".

Until eventually we're all eating Soylent Green produced by John Galt, and shot unless we enjoy it too.

>>930708
Funny thing is, with the Irish, the potato famine could have been prevented if Europe had had real free trade at that time.

He's generally right though, I mean, for all their flaws Monarchs generally took care of a nation's capital stock to a very high degree. Democratic Republics tend to have no such inclinations because there is no incentive for them to do so, they're simply usufruct controllers of a nation's capital stock (i.e. temporary caretakers) so they exploit it far more maliciously and without regard for its long term value.

I agree with strains of antidemocratic thought that emphasize this because the facts bear out what they've said and claimed, Bastiat was right on the money when he talked about how the idea of legal plunder becomes commonplace under a democracy. Moreover, the perversion of justice proceeds even faster. Instead of protecting pre-existing private property rights, democratic government becomes a machine for the redistribution of existing property rights in the name of illusory 'social security.'

I'd challenge anyway to deny this because the results are there for you to see with your own eyes. Tax rates under this system of universal compulsory democracy make the economic load endured by serfs seem modest. Government debt has risen to breathtaking levels. Gold has been replaced by Government manufactured paper currency with a continually diminishing value. Every detail of private life, property, trade and contract is regulated by ever higher mountains of paper law (legislation). In the name of social, public or national security our caretakers 'protect' us from global warming and cooling, the extinction of animals and plants, from husbands and wives, parents and employers, poverty, disease, disaster, ignorance, prejudice, racism, sexism, homophobia and countless other public enemies and dangers.

>>930715
You think those corporations could crush their small opposition without government enforced agencies, tariffs, and subsidies?

>>930715
>Being a small farmer is virtually impossible NOT because of "regulations".

See:

http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/2003/Everything-Is-Illegal1esp03.htm

He -is- a small farmer, he disagrees with you.

> That's called unrestricted capitalism.

lol, with the largest subsidies in the western world?

It's amazing how people like you take an example of a government created problem and ascribe it to the market every single time.

Of course, you'll have large farms in any event under a free market system, because yeah, conglomeration and the ensuing economies of scale are generally a good thing for consumers. But you certainly wouldn't see the complete destruction of small farmers without the regulations mentioned in the above link and massive agrasubsidy.

>>930714
>but schools have their own ideological reasons to push diversity

Schools have been self-segregating ever since the early 70s bro. Government introduced forced bussing to try and 'overcome' this.

So yes, racial agglomeration is perfectly spontaneous, Government efforts to somehow try and socially engineer diversity however, are not.

>diversity is useful for PR

It may be so. But are you even aware of the four fifths rule and what that means for companies?

>>930716
Environmentalism is a perfectly valid concern. The 19th century ruined our rivers, and the 20th century filled our air with poison. Having largely reversed those particular problems is an unconditional boon. There are still things going on that are of great concern.

Global warming is of course apocalyptic fearmongering that does nothing to highlight the source of environmental problems.

>>930728
>and the 20th century filled our air with poison.

Eh, I'd disagree with this.

You're aware the first clean air laws came into being in 1970 right?

But from 1950 until 1970, the amount of volatile organic compounds and carbon monoxide in the nation's air fell by more than 20 percent, even though total vehicle-miles traveled in the country rose by 120 percent, from 458 billion to 1.1 trillion. The level of sulfur dioxide in the air began falling as far back as 1920, and the total amount of airborne particulate matter has been reduced by 79 percent since 1940.

See: John Merline, "How Deadly is Air Pollution?" Consumers' Research (February 1997)

>>930733
Well that is heartening, if true, as it suggests that government regulation is not necessary to ensure improvement.

I just take exception to throwing in environmentalism with social "isms". Industrialization did some horrible shit, and we still are doing damage, if not as brutally.

>>930737
Well if you're a real propertarian, then you believe somebody polluting somebody else's property, i.e. fucking up a farmer's fertile land through negligent practices if you neighbor him is a violation of his property rights anyway. So you could establish clear liability between the entrepreneur and the farmer for the latter to gain compensation for any damages incurred.

I can't be arsed to follow it, but I have to say, I'm amused that Athens is engaged in what looks to be a serious argument.

>> for all their flaws Monarchs generally took care of a nation's capital stock to a very high degree.

Yes, and it's those FLAWS that bother most people about monarchy. To use present-day examples: King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, or the Sultan of Brunei, or the Emir of Kuwait, may manage their nation's "capital stock" very well indeed. TO WHOSE BENEFIT? To that of the very small ruling class who---as far as I can tell---are hereditary.

>>I agree with strains of antidemocratic thought that emphasize this...Bastiat was right on the money when he talked about how the idea of legal plunder becomes commonplace under a democracy.

As opposed to economic conditions under the current Saudi Arabian monarchy? Wouldn't you call that "legal plunder"?

>>Instead of protecting pre-existing private property rights, democratic government becomes a machine for the redistribution of existing property rights in the name of illusory 'social security.'

Ah, I see. "Private property rights" are your chief concern. Well then, I think you'd be very happy in Saudi Arabia, provided that you were a member of the royal family. Whereas we can see where the lack of redistribution under such a monarchy leads....to the radicalization of the vast majority of the population, and the breeding of religious terrorists. I'd say social security is not so illusory a thing as you think. Or it's easier to damage with deranged economic ideas like yours, that have real world consequences like, say, Osama Bin Laden, or Wahhabist Islam in general.

>>Tax rates under this system of universal compulsory democracy make the economic load endured by serfs seem modest.

Yes, but at the same time, the IRS is not likely to come and beat me to death. Whereas serfs tend to run that little risk.

Also: Why do you people always see taxation as such a wicked onerous burden? Even Jesus fucking Christ told people to pay their fucking taxes. Even Ben fucking Franklin said that nothing in life was certain but death and taxes. Suck it up.

I'm sorry, but as best I can make out, your ideal political economy is fascism with a puppet monarchy? Or a monarchy that adheres strictly to the economic tenets of fascism? Either way, you fucking terrify me.

>>930723
Compare CA university admissions (and the stats for admitted students) with the prevailing legal requirements - which technically ban affirmative action. And the four fifths rule is pretty easily skirted in most cases with good lawyering and practices like not allowing job applicants to include photos of themselves in the first place.

I think we are talking around each other. I don't personally give a rip about diversity one way or another. My original and only point is that crying for more regulation doesn't make sense given that many of the pathways to greater income already promote diversity beyond legal requirements.

>>930745
>To that of the very small ruling class

Saudi Arabia has a flourishing middle class, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here.

>Wouldn't you call that "legal plunder"?

Well yeah, but it's far less plunder than democratic republics loot from their subjects.

>I'd say social security is not so illusory a thing as you think.

So the purpose of entitlement programs in the US and Europe is to..... prevent wahhabist jihadis from gaining a foothold? lol.

>the IRS is not likely to come and beat me to death.

No, the principle is the same though, force or coercive force - It's still force. And it's still a barrel of a gun that is its ultimate guarantee.

>fascism

Fascism grew out of democracy, not monarchy. Fascism had widespread popular support and was elected in overwhelmingly.

>economic tenets of fascism?

Er, no that's corporatism. Fusion of state and business.

Do you even understand ELEMENTARY political theory or economic theory?

You fucking tard, stop getting overly emotional. Are you a girl?

>>Compare CA university admissions (and the stats for admitted students) with the prevailing legal requirements - which technically ban affirmative action

Uh, you might want to check out Sandra Day O'Connor's opinion in Grutter v Minnesota, you're wrong.

Also, CA has a state university system, and is therefore bound by Grutter v Minnesota.

But in the meantime places like Harvard and Yale are going to be engaged---as private institutions--in a kind of social engineering one way or the other.

I think what you're terrified by is the rise of Meritocracy, and how it will take the place of the Fascist Oligarchy you dream of. But you can't exactly stop that.

And besides, I went to Yale, and although I was admitted (I hope) on my merits, since I come from a working-class family, I can tell you that it's very easy to buy your way in if you're part of the transnational oligarchical overclass. You might have to buy a building, but your kids will end up getting their vanity degree so they aren't embarass themselves by having to go to a state school someplace.

>>930755
Universities are not private businesses though, and I'd be interested in a source on that claim. I know Richard Sander has criticized UCLA practices as far as AA go anyway, they simply don't work as most recipients drop out in the first year.

>lawyering

Which is a cost in of itself.

>crying for more regulation

Huh?

>greater income

I don't doubt we'd see token hiring under a free market system for the purposes of good PR, but we certainly wouldn't see anything like the state mandated requirements we have now.

ITT: /lit/ gets trolled by a lolbertarian

Again.

>>930778
>lolbertarian

>>930781

>implying I'm arguing with you

>>So the purpose of entitlement programs in the US and Europe is to..... prevent wahhabist jihadis from gaining a foothold? lol.

No, it's to prevent a replay of the economic conditions circa 1890 - 1940, which were the direct cause of the POLITICAL conditions of that half century. Some of which you might recall. The radicalization of the European and American working class, widespread popular unrest, regular assassination of political leaders, and eventually global conflagration.

>>Saudi Arabia has a flourishing middle class, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here.

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/table2_7.pdf

Here's the World Bank's statistics on income distribution. Considering that Saudi Arabia---being a monarchy with a centrally-controlled economy---provides them with no statistics whatsoever, I'd like to know on what basis you assert that Saudi Arabia has a "flourishing middle class".

>>Well yeah, but it's far less plunder than democratic republics loot from their subjects.

So you still find Saudi Arabia's economic system preferable to "progressive" taxation in the USA (after Reagan's and Dubya's tax cuts)? Has Grover Norquist offered you a glass of kool-aid recently? Did you drink it?

>>Fascism grew out of democracy, not monarchy.

Kaiser Wilhelm and Vittorio Emanuele, not to mention the Mikado Hirohito, would be surprised to learn this.

>>Fascism had widespread popular support and was elected in overwhelmingly.

Fascism grew out of failed states---ones which had collapsed economically due to the policies pursued by those liberal 19th century Monarchies you admire---and filled the gap with armed bands of thugs and militant nationalism. Then they permitted monied and manufacturing interests to carry on with business as usual---much in the style of a 19th century Monarchy, like you'd prefer to modern democracy.

Are you seriously the only person besides Goebbels who believes Hitler was "democratically elected by a broad majority"? So was Saddam fucking Hussein.

I feel like I'm being trolled by Joseph de Maistre.

>>930788
>economic conditions circa 1890 - 1940

You mean... rising real wages, falling work week hours, increased ownership of consumer goods, increased home ownership and so on?

Or do you mean the state intervention in central banking that led to the great depression, and the new deal that prolonged it by an entire decade?

>I'd like to know on what basis you assert that Saudi Arabia has a "flourishing middle class".

http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/Shedding_light_on_the_Gulfs_middle_class_1931

>So you still find Saudi Arabia's economic system preferable to "progressive" taxation in the USA

Yep. Absolutely. Although they have problems of their own, namely with tariffs, monopolized oil sector and so on.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to demonstrate in this discussion anyway, other than a non-sequitur that asserts the end result of not having a huge welfare state, invasive laws and other forms of statism will lead the US down the road to becoming a Islamic state. It doesn't seem to make much sense.

Hey, another pompous libertarian ready to clasp his money-stained hands together in prayer to the vague, nebulous powers of the free market. I wonder what it would be like if businesses started refusing to white, over-privileged boys? You might be out of a job, but hey, at least they're following your ideals, and that's all that matters.

We all have our priorities in life. Yours is centered around being able to make as much money as possible. I happen to think there are much more important things to worry about, but hey, I'm just another liberal who apparently is part of the secret socialist takeover you've been readying your underground bunker for.

Also, sage.

>>930789
>Kaiser Wilhelm

Are you completely forgetting the Hohenzollerns were -dissolved- after WW1 you fool?

>Vittorio Emanuele,

Mussolini's fascism was less totalitarian precisely because Italy was a constitutional monarchy.

Not sure why you're bringing Hirohito into this, Japan wasn't a fascist state and never made any claims to being a fascist state.

>ones which had collapsed economically due to the policies pursued by those liberal 19th century Monarchies you admire

Er.

No.

Hyperinflation in Germany happened because of the stupidity of Weimar central bankers, and central banking in general.

Read Franklin D. Graham's book on the period, it's an economic history:

>The fundamentally sound and the policy of laissez-faire to which they point is valid still.… The mills of international finance grind slowly but their capacity is great.…The one condition is that the hoppers be not unduly loaded in [an] effort to get the whole grist from a single grinding. So much for the economics of the question. What politics has in store is, however, an inscrutable mystery. It can only be said that such financial difficulties as may occur will almost certainly arise from political rather than economic sources.

1) Ok, but very overrated

2) Men and women should be equal. Sexism is bad either way.

3) Everyone should be given the opportunity to have a good life, but there should always be rich people, poor people, and some in between. Ideally people should have what they work for.

4) People that prove to be able to have a firearm should be allowed to have one

5) A necessity. If it's done to protect people from whatever is attacking them I don't care as long as innocents don't suffer

6) Military should work for the safety of the country and that's all. Any intervention in the politics should be severely punished

7) Against it. Exceptions: rape and very serious medical conditions that put the life of the baby or the mother in risk. Rich people that make abortions just because is inconvenient should be shot.

8) Not a religious man. I have no problem accepting religion or religious people, but religion should not interfere with politics

9) Everyone should work to protect the environment but without entering a paranoid state "urh durh Al Gore is God"

10) People should not be discriminated by race, only by what they do

11) Tragic, but I don't feel like it's a plague (one cannot forget that in older times most people with mental illness didn't live long)

12) Against

13) Same crap

Sorry if my English isn't the best

>Are you seriously the only person besides Goebbels who believes Hitler was "democratically elected by a broad majority"?

There's never been any historian who has believed that the Weimar elections in the early 1930s weren't legitimate and reflective of the national mood.

The great majority of the German nation had been both socialist and nationalist for many years. The Social Democratic trade union members sympathized as much with nationalist radicalism as did the peasants, the Catholics, and the shopkeepers. The communists owed their votes in great part to the idea that communism was the best means to establish German hegemony in Europe and defeat Western capitalism. The German entrepreneurs and businessmen contributed their share to the triumph of Nazism, but so did all other strata of the nation. Even the churches, both Catholic and Protestant, were no exception.

>>930810
See pic.

> "Need" now means wanting someone else's money. "Greed" means wanting to keep your own. "Compassion" is when a politician arranges the transfer.

>- Joseph Sobran

>>930784
>Implying the label of 'trolling' and other attempts at branding the subject in question 'a troll', are not invariably used to invalidate truthful statements and arguments.

>>Or do you mean the state intervention in central banking that led to the great depression, and the new deal that prolonged it by an entire decade?

This is what's so remarkable about people with your (deranged) political and economic ideas. The UTTER CERTAINTY that you know the SOLE cause of the Great Depression (Big Government) and the reason for its duration (BIg Government).

You are aware that reputable historians and economists DEBATE these issues quite seriously, and that a majority would consider your views to be a gross oversimplification in pursuit of a grossly oversimplified ideology?

>>http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/Shedding_light_on_the_Gulfs_middle_class_1931

Well, McKinsey was clearly so accurate about Enron, and cell phones being a niche market only, that I am naturally inclined to trust them---as opposed to the World Bank---after they polled 2400 people in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Dubai. Clearly Monarchy leads to a burgeoning middle class. In which case, Glenn Beck better stop with all the Tea Parties, and replace them with straight-up Royalism. Maybe the USA can join the Commonwealth, so we can tap into a little of that Monarchical Economic Magic.

>>I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to demonstrate in this discussion anyway, other than a non-sequitur that asserts the end result of not having a huge welfare state, invasive laws and other forms of statism will lead the US down the road to becoming a Islamic state.

Yeah, you missed my point completely. Which is what happens when your only tool for understanding economics and politics is apparently Ayn Rand's dexedrine-addled vagina.

I was not suggesting America would become an Islamic State.

I was, however, suggesting that the kind of political conditions you admire are present in Saudi Arabia. And that they are responsible for Saudi Arabia being a nightmarish repressive shithole of a country, which understandably produces jihadists, and whose most repellent aspects America is forced to ignore because of our reliance on Saudi Arabia's oil.

After all, you were extolling the economic and political virtues of Monarchism, and I invited you to consider an actual Monarchy in the form of Saudi Arabia. As it turns out, you seem to think that Saudi Arabia is great, because it has avoided the perils of "statism" and "regulation" and all those other Hayekian bugbears that seem to haunt you. Whereas I think most Americans who don't already subscribe to your narrow and obsessive ideology--which is to say most Americans--would vastly prefer the system we have, however flawed, to the nightmare that you are proposing.

>>930824

Look, I don't give a shit if he's right or not. He's a prick and I'm going to insult him. This isn't fucking debate club, I don't care about your fucking fallacies.

>>930826
>The UTTER CERTAINTY that you know the SOLE cause of the Great Depression (Big Government) and the reason for its duration (BIg Government).
>Doesn't understand the business cycle

In issuing fiduciary media, by which I mean bank notes without gold backing or current accounts which are not entirely backed by gold reserves, the banks are in a position to expand credit considerably. The creation of these additional fiduciary media permits them to extend credit well beyond the limit set by their own assets and by the funds entrusted to them by their clients. They intervene on the market in this case as "suppliers" of additional credit, created by themselves, and they thus produce a lowering of the rate of interest, which falls below the level at which it would have been without their intervention. The lowering of the rate of interest stimulates economic activity. Projects which would not have been thought "profitable" if the rate of interest had not been influenced by the manipulations of the banks, and which, therefore, would not have been undertaken, are nevertheless found "profitable" and can be initiated.

Do you understand? Or do you need me to spell it out to you again?

As for the New Deal, unemployment remained as high as it had been in 1932 in 1940, agricultural policies such as the forced destruction of crops and dairy products drove up food price inflation and the US was in just as bad a state as it had been under Hoover (who actually began the process, contrary to popular belief, with his economic relief plan of 1932 and the biggest rise in taxation ever seen in a Western country in contemporary times.

A black guy strolls into a local diner. He catches a hateful glare from the owner, who is just coming out of the busy kitchen. Hesitant, but still hungry as hell, the black guy walks up to the counter, only to immediately hear "HAY NIGGER, WE DON'T SERVE YOUR KIND 'ROUND HERE."

The owner's same grimace has now spread to the faces of everyone within earshot. Some are shocked, appalled even. One man even threatens to fight the owner.

In the corner of the diner, Athens, who had been breaking off bits of his soup crackers trying to make a Ron Paul, now is wrapped up in this whole scene. He is not so phased by the customers' reactions. Instead, he looks over at the store owner, dries an eye, and whispers "God Bless America."

>Well, McKinsey was clearly so accurate about Enron, and cell phones being a niche market only

Fallacy of poisoning the well.

Anyway. Monarchy or no monarchy, what drives real wage rates up is capital investment, it's just that a monarch has less of an incentive to exploit his nation's capital stock for short term gain than a democratic caretaker government does.

>Ayn Rand's dexedrine-addled vagina.

Who said anything about objectivism?

Are you strawmanning again? Now, now, construct a rational argument or I'll have to school you again.

>nightmarish repressive shithole of a country, which understandably produces jihadists, and whose most repellent aspects America is forced to ignore because of our reliance on Saudi Arabia's oil.

Non causa pro causa.

Monarchies do not produce jihadism or islamic extremism. Why do you the US supports the relatively secular Mubarak in Egypt who bans the overwhelmingly popular Islamic party from participating in elections?

Muslims would vote in Islamic parties in a democracy, so your point is moot.

>Hayekian bugbears that seem to haunt you

Hayek actually believed in concept of public goods though, which many libertarians disagree with as a fallacious concept in of themselves. Not sure why you're bringing him up, his improvements to the theory of credit extension were good though.

>nightmare that you are proposing.

That people control their own property, how nightmarish!

>>930860
Fuck year.

>>Are you completely forgetting the Hohenzollerns were -dissolved- after WW1 you fool?
>>Hyperinflation in Germany happened because of the stupidity of Weimar central bankers, and central banking in general.

When I referred to the Kaiser, I was referring to policies such as Imperialism. Which your precious 19th century constitutional monarchies more or less encouraged, until it led to the Great War.

I know the Kaiser abdicated after the Great War. For the same reason that I know you're wrong about German economic conditions in the Weimar Republic.

WHY? Because....

>>Read Franklin D. Graham's book on the period, it's an economic history:

OKAY, I'll read this is you sit down and fucking read THE ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES OF THE PEACE, written in response to the Treaty of Versailles, by John Maynard Fucking Keynes.

That's why I know you're full of shit. Because I have read Keynes. And he was right. And he continues to be right in the present economic moment, like it or not.

But I'm sure you've never actually read Keynes, you've just spent your life in a libertarian echo-chamber where his name is invoked to laugh at it. By people who believe in things like the Laffer Curve.

The Weimar economic collapse had more to do with the Treaty of Versailles than it did with Central Banking on the part of the Germans. It had to do with unrestricted greed on the part of a 19th century Liberalism that you admire so much.

While you're at it, you might want to read "The Strange Death of Liberal England". It might give you some glimpse of the dustbin of history, which is where all your deeply-held convictions are invariably headed.

>>930860

Personally I don't mind making racism illegal like that, as long as we are consistent and make all idiotic ideologies (like religion) illegal.

>>Read Franklin D. Graham's book on the period, it's an economic history:

It's not listed on amazon.com. Who published it? Lyndon LaRouche?

>>930871
>Which your precious 19th century constitutional monarchies more or less encouraged, until it led to the Great War.

It was actually diplomatic blundering on the part of Wilhelm II, Bismarck, another 'imperialist' had worked extremely well to avoid such confrontations by maintaining friendly relations with Russia.

As for post-1945 Europe, peace was maintained because of free trade and increasing prosperity, it had nothing to do with monarchies or democracies, as democracies are not some religious force that can never do any wrong nor ever start wars.

>The Weimar economic collapse had more to do with the Treaty of Versailles than it did with Central Banking on the part of the Germans.

I actually agree with this in part. Though it must be noted I don't think this made war inevitable, as Keynes claimed, and as Mantoux demonstrated in his refutation of Economic Consequences.

>It had to do with unrestricted greed on the part of a 19th century Liberalism that you admire so much.

The same 'greed' that caused the Austro-Hungarian Emperor to make peace offerings in 1917 you mean? Which were by your democratic crusader Wilson who was driven irrationally insane by a hatred of European Monarchism?

>It might give you some glimpse of the dustbin of history, which is where all your deeply-held convictions are invariably headed.

The really funny thing is that you think you can keep up your policies of deficit spending, credit extensions and debt financed booms forever actually.

Paradigms don't last forever you fool. Keynes is on the way out.

>>930890
>idiotic ideologies

Like egalitarianism you mean? That's about as unscientific an ideology as there possibly exists.

>>930897
>Wilson

God that man was an asshole, should never have won over Roosevelt.

Most racist president in history and dead set on destroying traditional Europe.

>>930901

Eh. It's not that bad an idea if you don't take it to extremes. Equality under the law isn't that bad, is it?

>>930906
>equality under the law

Is a negative right, i.e. a natural right.

What I'm referring to are unscientific beliefs such as blank slateism.

>>930896
http://openlibrary.org/books/OL5995251M/Exchange_prices_and_production_in_hyper-inflation_Germany_19
20-1923.

>>930907
>a natural right.

Kind of a silly concept really..just an artifact of our moralistic past. There's nothing more egalitarian than the universality of natural rights.

>>As for post-1945 Europe, peace was maintained because of free trade and increasing prosperity

No, peace was maintained because they listened to John Maynard Keynes, and put his principles into practice with the Marshall Plan.

>>The really funny thing is that you think you can keep up your policies of deficit spending, credit extensions and debt financed booms forever actually.

And so if you foresee a collapse of America's financial system, please tell me what you foresee following that?

I mean, you betray a deranged bias against "democracy" in every post you make, but you say what you'd actually PREFER. Or what you think will replace the decadent democracies of the West? A worldwide transnational oligarchy run by Putin? The imposition of hereditary monarchy on North America? Seriously. If you think democracy is that decadent, what will replace it when it implodes, or withers away, or whatever YOU seem to think will happen?

>>930919
Natural rights are not moralistic in concept at all. The way they are popularly imagined is absurd, but the concept is simple enough, if one bothers to read the source.

>>930927
Democracy is already on the way out. Corporate oligarchy.

>>930928

What source?

>>930919
I have some misgivings as well. But I believe they're generally quite logically rigorous.

Assume that you don't own yourself. Now, who does? Logically, whoever owns you has a greater claim to ownership over you than you. But on what basis do they make this claim? We've already assumed self-ownership doesn't exist. If you have no basis for a claim to own yourself, then everybody else has less basis for that claim.

>>930932
Locke, Spinoza, et al.

>>Assume that you don't own yourself. Now, who does? Logically, whoever owns you has a greater claim to ownership over you than you. But on what basis do they make this claim? We've already assumed self-ownership doesn't exist. If you have no basis for a claim to own yourself, then everybody else has less basis for that claim.

And when Proudhon said "property is theft", people like you complained that the idea of theft presupposed the existence of property.

Whereas Proudhon's slogan was more influential than people who made hair-splitting arguments like yours.

>>930927
>No, peace was maintained because they listened to John Maynard Keynes

Ahahaha. The Marshall Plan certainly helped with reconstruction, no doubt about that. But credit extensions never really reached damaging levels until the 1970s as far as the concept of fiscal, and later neo-Keynesian monetary stimulus go.

It should be noted, that often forgotten is the role Erhard played in transforming W. Germany into a free market economy as well.

>And so if you foresee a collapse of America's financial system, please tell me what you foresee following that?

Who knows, I don't engage in Hegelian mysticism like Socialists do.

>I mean, you betray a deranged bias against "democracy" in every post you make, but you say what you'd actually PREFER.

Constitutional Monarchy, because even if we achieve limited Government, there's no way to enshrine that it will remain so with universal suffrage democracy in place. Democracy engenders the growth of the state, the growth of debt and the growth of short-termist policy for the reasons I've already outlined.

>>930937

Locke pulled property rights right out of his arse, it didn't make the least bit of sense, and all the "life, liberty, blah blah blah" shit really is unjustifiable moralizing bullshit. Spinoza's natural law is pretty much "if you can do it, it's cool", no more than a meaningless law of the jungle.

>>930947
>Whereas Proudhon's slogan was more influential than people who made hair-splitting arguments like yours.

You want me to be more directly utilitarian about it? Fine.

I happen to like property rights since they are easy to understand, seem like common sense (as far back as law has exited, they have existed also: see the Brehon Laws of Ancient Ireland for example), and yield the best results overall. Also, an ancient relative of mine once stole Thugg's food and got clubbed in the head, that branch of the family died out.

>>930960
That is what natural rights are, according to all of them. Natural rights are to all living things the extent of their natural capabilities. In society, one's rights end only where another's begin. That is the application of natural laws to society, it is a very simple concept.

>>930979
Natural rights and natural law being synonyms, of course.

>>930979
>Natural rights are to all living things the extent of their natural capabilities.
>In society, one's rights end only where another's begin.

You realize those two sentences COMPLETELY contradict each other, right?

>>Who knows, I don't engage in Hegelian mysticism like Socialists do.

No. You believe in Constitutional Monarchy. Thank you for that. It is now perfectly clear I have been discoursing with a madman. And a Monarchist.

If I ever happen to stop by Nova Zembla, I shall leave my visiting-card for you at the palace.

Along with a copy of Joseph de Maistre's work.

>>930986
They do not, because society, according to this philosophy, is not a natural state. A society does not function if every individual exercises the full extent of his rights.

No natural law theorists suggested that any person should exercise their rights to the fullest extent. Instead, they believe that government and society should be designed with man's natural rights in mind. The natural state of man exercising his powers to the fullest is exactly what is to be avoided. Poor government is that which is tyrannical because it is at war (in the natural state) with its people, rather than accountable and representative of them.

>>930998
> It is now perfectly clear I have been discoursing with a madman.

Of course you think like this. Statists only find this controversial only because they have elevated democracy to some divine status where criticizing it is beyond the pale. This is because they are entirely ignorant of history and are dominated by emotion.

As for Maistre. Bash him all you want, as I wouldn't want absolutism in a monarchy to begin with. So you're just strawmanning, as your kind always does when they've run out of arguments.

For the record, the democrats Marx and Engles called for the extermination of the entire Slavic race, the expropriation of all property, and agitated one of the most egregious riots in all of human history (1848), who knows how many were brutally murdered in the streets.

>>931010
In any event, merely reading the original documents is sufficient to understand them, they are not dense.

Regardless of what is popularly imagined, natural law/rights are a framework for accountable and just government, not a license for anarchy. Barbarism is the basic state of man, but not the preferable.

Also, I do agree that Locke's theory of property is dubious.

It is well argued, but has a clear agenda.

>guy comes from /new/ to troll people on /lit/
>claims democracy is 'bad'
>claims monarchy is 'good'
>people still take him seriously

myface.jpeg

>>Of course you think like this. Statists only find this controversial only because they have elevated democracy to some divine status where criticizing it is beyond the pale. This is because they are entirely ignorant of history and are dominated by emotion.

No, I'm cognizant enough of history to have noticed that democracies may have degenerated into un-constitutional monarchies under (say) Alexander the Great, or Julius Caesar, but they haven't done so LATELY.

So your anti-democratic rage and loathing leaves me bemused, not because I have joined some cult of Woodrow Wilson.

But because, for all your furious master-debating, summoning the full force of your own deranged logic, you finally announce a preference for Monarchy.

Well, guess what? I don't like Christianity or Islam very much. I vastly prefer the Cult of Priapus. But try as I might, I am never going to get the vast majority of humanity to join me in worshiping a Giant Penis-God.

And even if I were able to come up with cogent ethical and philosophical and indeed economic arguments for why the worship of Priapus is preferable to all other alternatives, so what?

I'm not dismissing you as insane because I am a fervently convinced "statist" and partisan of electoral democracy.

I'm dismissing you because you are wanking into the void, buddy. And guess what? The void is never full....

>>931010
>No natural law theorists suggested that any person should exercise their rights to the fullest extent.

Nietzsche.

So essentially what you're saying is that the role of the government is to limit people's natural rights. In that case, in the context of society and government, "natural rights" are not, in fact, negative rights but positive ones.

>>931017

I sympathize with your plight, but what makes you think monarchy is so good? Yes it solves some of the problems we have today, but it brings with it many others. What would make the monarch's interests aligned with those of the country he is governing? Just look at how much corporate officers steal from shareholders. It's a principal-agent problem like no other, and with really no solution in sight. Wouldn't it be better to simply limit democracy? Require education in economics and the structure of government, exclude anyone who receives handouts from the government, anyone who works for it, etc. No more special interests, no corporate influence, much smaller entitlement programs. A constitutional amendment that bans any changes in the supply of money would take care of overzealous fiscal/monetary intervention.

>>931038
>democracy is destined to last until the end of time because, er.... false equivocation fallacy #37 and non causa pro causa fallacy #102. Also, highly charged emotional rhetoric placeholder text and something about not caring for the poor

>>the democrats Marx and Engles

Also, I won't call attention to your misspelling of Friedrich Engels's name---a rhetorical device surely you will recognize as classical praeteritio---but you think they're "democrats"?

Anybody who knows anything about Marx remembers that he claims the state will wither away.

That's not democracy, that's a kind of mysical anarchism, of the sort that 99 percent of libertarians I've encountered also profess to believe in.

1. President Obama
2. Women's rights and the issue of sexism
3. Class relations
4. Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws
5. War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today)
6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society
7. Abortion
8. Religion
9. The environment
10. Affirmative action and race relations
11. The current plague of mental illness in our society including disorders and diseases such as Asperger's/Autism, OCD, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy etc.
12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise
13. Politics today vs. in the past

aka trollin list

>No natural law theorists suggested that any person should exercise their rights to the fullest extent.

>Nietzsche.

Oh not just Nietzsche! Surely you are forgetting Donatien Alphonse François, le Marquis de Sade!

Since this debate has already included vigorous participation from madmen, we might as well take the Divine Marquis seriously as a "natural rights theorist", non?

>>931017
>Statists statists statists
>they are entirely ignorant of history and are dominated by emotion.
>as YOUR KIND always does when they've run out of arguments.

i don't quite know if you are a troll but you are, at any rate, a very good one

>>931040
This isn't an argument, it's just saying that because the status quo is what it is, there is no reason or cause to offer comparative analyses of governmental systems from an economic perspective, which is absurd.

>>931046
>What would make the monarch's interests aligned with those of the country he is governing?

Already been explained. A monarch simply has more incentive to protect the capital stock of his own nation than a democratic caretaker does. Both engage in wholesale exploitation, but the monarch's exploitation is with regards to the capital stock, and as such, the long term economic health of the nation. Whereas the democratic caretaker simply exploits as much as possible in the short time allotted to him. Kind of like why Government forestries are less well managed than privately owned forestries for example.

There's also a clearer distinction between rulers and ruled in a monarchy, which makes disenfranchising policies all the harder to pursue as people are naturally more suspicious of a King's aims, whereas democracy has an emotional aura around it that breeds demagoguery, because it allows for open entry into Government.

>>931066

And what happens when the King's son is an insane douchebag?

>>931046
You are right about Nietzsche, should have clarified that I meant the original 17th/18th century pioneers of the ideology. That it led to Nietzsche is indisputable. And modern thought more closely follows his ideas than the older thinkers.

But yes, early liberals wanted just, accountable government, but government none the less. Not all natural law theorists were liberals, either. Hobbes thought that absolute government was necessary to keep man's bestial nature in check. Later liberals disagreed with Hobbes' conclusions, but not his claims of man's natural state.

I don't agree with everything they argued, and they did not have access to later science, but it is important to know exactly what the actual idea of natural law is, I think.

>>A monarch simply has more incentive to protect the capital stock of his own nation than a democratic caretaker does.

Okay, then riddle me this, Batshit.

If that is how you are defining constitutional monarchy, in what way does Russia---considered as a constitutional monarchy with Putin as de-facto tsar---differ from the ideal economic conditions you are describing?

Surely Putin fits all the criteria. Do you admire his enlightened despotism? Do you think Russia's economic condition is admirable? Heaven knows it's nothing like the "democracy" you detest so wholeheartedly.

>>931050
Er, have you even read the planks of the Communist Manifesto? They did believe in universal suffrage and democracy.

>Anybody who knows anything about Marx remembers that he claims the state will wither away.

Yes, Hegelian mysticism as I said. That's in the long run though, Marx and Engels still believed democracy was a route to this path.

>mysical anarchism, of the sort that 99 percent of libertarians I've encountered also profess to believe in.

Yeah, we should all believe in an economic system that thinks economic growth could be achieved if everyone would only destroy everyone else's windows.... He stole that from Bastiat by the way, who used it to rebut the point anyway.

Actually, he stole quite a lot of ideas from classical authors without any proper referencing.

"I am unable to find in it a single doctrine that is both true and original. What is original in the book is not true; and what is true is not original."

- Henry Hazlitt.

>>931066

You do have a point, but the drawbacks to monarchy are fucking huge. The same effect could be achieved with lifetime elections to the presidency (or whatever you might call it), without the line-of-succession issues and still maintaining an air of meritocracy.

>>931077
And what happens when the democratically elected leader is an insane douch... oh wait. He already is and always is anyway, because democracy is simply the method of selecting for efficiently bad people over and over again.

>>931079
>considered as a constitutional monarchy with Putin as de-facto tsar

lmao. Stop reading the Washington Post.

>>931079

Look at this chart. http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:RUS&dl=en&amp
;hl=en&q=russia+gdp

Putin came into power in 1999. Your argument is invalid.

I am sitting here reading someone whose only citations come from the likes of "F.D. Graham" and "Henry Hazlitt", whom I have never heard of, until I google and discover that they are all noteworthy libertarians.

And therefore of interest only to....other libertarians.

I guess this is what it's like to live in an intellectual echo chamber.

>>931095
>F.D. Graham
>Libertarian

lol

>never heard of Henry Hazlitt

Well if -you've- never heard of him then he's obviously not worth reading!

Right... let's get back to reading our Chomsky!

>>931090

Oh come on...at least in a democracy you'll get people who actually want to rule, and if they're too crazy they're gone in 4 years (or less). In a monarchy you could be stuck with them for the better part of a century, doing irreparable damage.

>>931095
True, no one here has read them. But apparently no one here has even read Locke, so thats not saying much.

>>Putin came into power in 1999. Your argument is invalid.

I had no argument. I had questions for Athens, our true believer in constitutional monarchy.

If Putin is considered as a Constitutional Monarch, then that graph seems to indicate he is, indeed, a better and wiser steward of Russia's capital than any "democratically" elected Wilsonoid apparatchik could be capable of.

My question was: Am I therefore supposed to find Putin ADMIRABLE? Surely a lot of his economic stewardship of Russia has to do with things like jailing the wealthiest man in Russia (Mikhail Khodorovsky) because he wasn't sufficiently deferential to Putin.

How does Putinism differ from this admirable Constitutional Monarchy? Seriously?

>>931103
>Oh come on...at least in a democracy you'll get people who actually want to rule, and if they're too crazy they're gone in 4 years (or less).

And then you get another efficiently bad person in office. Because democracy is simply a method of selecting for efficiently bad people to rule. That's exactly what mob rule boils down to.

>In a monarchy you could be stuck with them for the better part of a century, doing irreparable damage.

I agree this may be a flaw. But consider this:

1) The Imperial Household, i.e. his family, dynastic relatives etc do not have an interest in letting him fuck up the country and therefore fuck up their dynastic power and future chances, this is the reason so many monarchical assassinations have come from the monarch's own family. At the very least, like with George, they'll sideline him or ostracize him from the apparatus of power.

2) Remember that when you do have a genuinely bad monarch, it's usually the upper, elite class that suffer the most. Not really the ordinary people, as the Monarch simply wouldn't have as much to be corrupt with.

>>931115
>If Putin is considered as a Constitutional Monarch

But he isn't. We've already been through this. Unless you'd like to regurgitate some of your own democratic leader's fearmongering about Russia in order to supplement your own 'argument'.

>>931105

Lol.

>>But he isn't. We've already been through this.

No, we haven't been through this. Explain to me the way in which Putin's rule in Russia is not, functionally, the equivalent of monarchy.

Because he didn't inherit his position by birth?
Because he doesn't call himself a monarch?
If he's not the EQUIVALENT of a constitutional monarch, then what is he?

I suppose I was proposing a thought experiment, forgetting that libertarians are incapable of thought, while eager to foist their own nightmare experiment upon the countries of the world.

>>931151
Because functionally speaking his titular powers are nowhere near that even of a constitutional monarch?

Because functionally speaking he has no dynastic successor?

Because functionally speaking there are term limits on office holding?

Because functionally speaking there are two democratically elected chambers?

Because functionally speaking there are regular elections?

Putin is a manager, inhibited by democratic practice, who acts in a pragmatic way similar to the way the upper ranks of the CCP behave, but without the absolute power.

>>931151

There's probably a libertarian website he can refer you to. In fact, he should probably just post the links and then gtfo.

>>931151

That's fucking stupid. You made a naked assertion and then asked him to say why it wasn't true.

>>931180
>>931180

And he couldn't even do that. Jesus.

>>931172
http://www.revleft.com/

Go back there, your comrades are waiting for you.

>>931198

Point not taken. You seem to operate in your own echo chamber as well, get it?

>>931201
>I haven't heard of the authors he's talking about
>I'll accuse him of living in an echo chamber

For the record. I've read the works of most major leftists, from anarcho syndicalists to frankfurt school gramscian marxists.

>>That's fucking stupid. You made a naked assertion and then asked him to say why it wasn't true.

No, I was just trying to figure out what his definition of Constitutional Monarchy is.

In other words, does Putin---who is basically a despot with complete control of his country, and therefore could be considered (functionally speaking) as a Monarch in a country with a constitution---qualify as whatever the hell he's talking about.

Since let's face it, it's not every day in 2010 that somebody comes along singing the praises of Consitutional Fucking Monarchy.

Well, he answered my question. As it turns out, he literally means somebody with a Crown and a Sceptre and Dynastic Succession.

In which case, I want to know what he thinks of Queen Elizabeth II, because clearly that's his political beau ideal. Is she just insufficiently schooled in the ways of libertarian economics to forestall Britain's decline?

I mean, Putin may have more money, power, and control over his country's economy.....but Queen Elizabeth II is LITERALLY a Constitutional Monarch.

So....how's she doing, Athens? Fap over her lately?

Incidentally, according to the rules of succession to her throne, her son Charles has violated the Constitution of his mother's Constitutional Monarchy by marrying a Roman Catholic (Mrs Parker-Bowles). Do you think Queen Elizabeth II ought to behead him, in order to preseve the purity of that Constitutional Monarchy whose virtues you extol?

>>931203
>he don't agree with me so he must not have read the same books as me.

Love your Bon mots but at this point you're just going blah. Move along now, sure the Pauls are looking forward to Sunday dinner with ya.

>>931208
>who is basically a despot with complete control of his country

This is a naked assertion, just like he said. You saying something does not immediately make it an axiom.

Demonstrate how, legally speaking, with reference to the Russian Federation's constitution and Putin's titular powers that he is the equivalent of a Monarch. Go on, do it.

The rest is just you attempting to change the subject.

>>931216
You've never even read Hazlitt, he was the foremost critic of Keynes in the 1950s and 1960s. Hardly an author only a niche group of people know about.

>>931231

Not that faggot, echo chamber. Apologies or tits.

>>Demonstrate how, legally speaking, with reference to the Russian Federation's constitution and Putin's titular powers that he is the equivalent of a Monarch. Go on, do it.

Pic related.

>>931248
lol, what's next in your list of evidence, a quote from buttcrack osambo himself?

1. President Obama
>Hasn't ruined anything, but would like to see more work that is actually is. For instance, healthcare was just a matter of time and was up to congress either way.
2. Women's rights and the issue of sexism
>There really should be a balanced power structure, but I don't know how long that will take.
3. Class relations
>Progressive taxation
4. Weapons, firearms and self-defense laws
>Legal to own at age 35, not in public. Self-defense is self-defense.
5. War (not necessarily the one/s in the middle east, but war as a whole historically and today)
>Stay out of foreign affairs
6. The role of the military in modern society as opposed to past society
>I want someone to fight my wars, but I don't want it to be me.
7. Abortion
>Yes.
8. Religion
>God is dead.
9. The environment
>We belong to the planet
10. Affirmative action and race relations
>GTFO.
11. The current plague of mental illness in our society including disorders and diseases such as Asperger's/Autism, OCD, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy etc.
>Sex needs to be destigmatized for people to do it right.
12. Drugs, illegal and otherwise
>Cannabis, legal; hard drugs, illegal
13. Politics today vs. in the past
>24-hour news cycle sucks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/21/russia.topstories3

I think with 40 billion in net worth, Putin himself is as little concerned with explaining his power in terms of the Russian Federation's constitution, his titular powers, or ANYTHING, legally speaking, as I am.

Meanwhile, a monarchy is a form of government in which all political power is absolutely or nominally lodged with an individual or individuals.

If Putin is not, therefore, the *equivalent* of a monarch, then what is he? An all-powerful oligarch? The richest man in Europe who continues to run his government while techincally observing the formalities of the Russian Federation's Constitution? Or has he just gone from Tsar Putin to Ras-Putin in one easy step?

There's no point in quibbling over this now. I brought up the example of Putin because I wanted to find out if Athens was truly deranged enough that he LITERALLY meant Constitutional Monarchy, or if he was talking about situations--like Putin's--which could be construed as the functional equivalent thereof.

Now that I know he LITERALLY means Constitutional Monarchy, I'm more interested in hearing him dissect the career of HRH Elizabeth II, according to his own standards for what a Constitutional Monarch ought to be like.

>>931276
>I think with 40 billion in net worth, Putin himself is as little concerned with explaining his power in terms of the Russian Federation's constitution, his titular powers, or ANYTHING, legally speaking, as I am.

So if Michael Bloomberg becomes US president at some point, he will be a monarch too?

Cool logic bro.

>Meanwhile, a monarchy is a form of government in which all political power is absolutely or nominally lodged with an individual or individuals.

Actually no, there's no real clear definition. If you understood political theory you'd know this already of course, but you don't. The broadly accepted definition is that a monarchy is a state ruled by somebody who has supreme authority vested in them. Read some Aristotle and Plato you faggot.

>>So if Michael Bloomberg becomes US president at some point, he will be a monarch too?

Well, Michael Bloomberg bought himself an extra-constitutional third term as mayor of NYC.

So maybe he has monarchy on his mind, but clearly constitutions mean as little to him as they do to Putin.

Which was my point about absolute power being vested in someone.

As it has been vested in the world's most famous Constitutional Monarch, HRH Queen Elizabeth II.

And yes, I've read Plato's Politeia and Aristotle's Politika, and I fail to see how either apply to "Constitutional Monarchy" as exemplified by the most famous Constitutional Monarch in the world.

Who doesn't seem too concerned about her line of succession, or she would have beheaded Mrs Parker-Bowles for violating the 1701 Act of Settlement, a cornerstone of the UK's Constiutional Monarchy.

>>931313
>Well, Michael Bloomberg bought himself an extra-constitutional third term as mayor of NYC.
>So maybe he has monarchy on his mind, but clearly constitutions mean as little to him as they do to Putin.

So will he or won't he be a monarch, or do you not know, and in doing so, acknowledge that having a lot of wealth and being in a position of political power does not necessarily mean one is a monarch?

I mean seriously, out of all the stupid arguments you made. You made the argument that wealth equates to defacto Kingship? Do you realize how wealthy so many political figures are across the Western World? Even fucking Al Gore is cashing in on his green energy ponzi scheme.

>Meanwhile, a monarchy is a form of government in which all political power is absolutely or nominally lodged with an individual or individuals.

> The broadly accepted definition is that a monarchy is a state ruled by somebody who has supreme authority vested in them.

> a form of government in which all political power is absolutely or nominally lodged with an individual

>a state ruled by somebody who has supreme authority vested in them

> all political power is absolutely or nominally lodged

>supreme authority vested

>>931323
>individuals
>plural

No.

Defacto maybe, de jure: no.

Russian here, nice Russophobia ITT. Putin is not the antichrist.

>athens
>dumb fucks actually arguing with him

>>931336

Yeah, funny how they were ok with the hopelessly corrupt and inept Yeltsin. But as soon as Russia becomes a force to be reckoned with again, Putin becomes a target of all kinds of yellow journalism.

1. He's not the ant-Christ or the democratic messiah. and he's barely even a socialist. on the political map, everyone in American politics is still in the upper right quadrant. with that said he may well be in-experienced, but this country has survived a lot of Presidents.
2. I don't feel like sexism is going to go away through legislation. The basic legal structure for equality is pretty much there, and you can't legislate a paradigm change.
3. Uh. Too broad.
4. I think people probably have the right to bear arms. A lot of people abuse that right. Illegalizing fire arms will only create a new and probably quite violent venue of trade for the black market and organized crime.
5. Between nations, war is only justified when the other nation attacks first. This attack may be in the form of extreme economic or social repression, but then of course you have to figure out what qualifies as extreme repression. Essentially same applies to civil war and revolution. As far as Iraq goes, we probably shouldn't have been there in the first place. But now that we are and we've destroyed the countries infrastructure, I think we kind of have an obligation to stay until it's rebuilt. Otherwise the country will probably end up in a fairly violent civil war.
6. Eh, no opinion. Other than that the U.S. should reduce their military budget, they already have a larger military than all of their potential threats combined.

7. I think that once the potential for life is there, it's best to give it a chance. At the same time I don't think forcing anyone to have a kid is going to do much good. Whoever said abortion is murder was obviously unaware of the definition of murder. However, using abortion repeatedly as birth control is, in my opinion, incredibly irresponsible.
8. Fundamentalism is no good. Radical rationalism is kind of silly as well. Religion/spirituality is a major part of life and the human experience, whether you believe it's purely psychological or metaphysical. Anyone who ignores spirituality or rationalism will probably be a somewhat unbalanced individual.
9. The global climate is changing, and it probably has to do with carbon emissions, but I don't really care if the seaboards go under water. I do care about the destruction of the rain forest, coral reef, and various species of plant and animal life. Not because I'm a tree hugger, but because a well paved suburban world is horrifyingly bland. I mean "horrifyingly" literally.
10. Racism is a dinosaur. It's about class.
11. I don't know how to have an opinion on entirely genetic diseases. They exist, I don't think you can do much about it. I do think that the cultural paradigm and structure in westernized nations (materialism, fundamentalist religion, extreme "rationalism") has a lot to do with the increase in depression, OCD, general anxiety disorder.
12. There is absolutely no reason why most drugs should not be legal. Prohibition of drugs has the exact same effect as prohibition of alcohol, in other words, violent organized crime. The fact that this isn't obvious to everyone amazes me. At the same time, while I believe both licit and illicit drugs can be enjoyable and psychologically helpful, smoking weed e'ry day or continually dropping acid isn't the best way to have a spiritual experience or fix your psychological problem.

Fucking loved the debate even if a lot of it went over my head. More like this on /lit/ please lol.