/lit/ - Literature

One of my questions pertains to Surah Al-Baqarah (Surah 2) Ayat 62:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=62

Some translations I have heard tend to suggest that this verse is not applicable only to non-Muslims (who believed in the one true god, day of judgement, etc, etc) before the Muhammad PBUH started preaching but that it is also currently applicable and one does not need to be a Muslim, even if one has heard of the Quran and Islam, to attain salvation.

Any clarifications?

>>9191784
>>>/pol/

>>9191784

Are there any good books about Vlad III of Wallachia? Particularly how the Muslims broke the mind of a child with their savage practices and created a hero who literally assreamed them on pikes?

>>9191784

So your point is that if we did have knowledge of it we'd convert or some shit?

>>9191802
I agree.
This verse implies that, as long as someone have true faith (christian, jew...) and follow the word of God he'll be fine.

I know there is another verse in the Quran praising christian monastic orders for example.

>the rest of the world prepares for intergalatic colonization
>the islamic world still debates religious law

I really hope you fucks fatwa yourselves stuck on this Earth so we can leave you behind.

>>9191820
Wasn't my point but, being consistent with the Quran, as per Surah 2 Ayat 99, if you were to learn Arabic and read the Quran (given that the Quran in any other language is not actually the Quran) only the most hard hearted among you would deny the truth of what is written in the Quran, for the verse says:

"And We have certainly revealed to you
verses [which are] clear proofs, and no
one would deny them except the defiantly
disobedient."

If you want to hear it in Arabic with a word for word translation: http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=99

My point however, was just that it might be interesting for you to read about Islam and its holy books and its hadiths in themselves and discussions regarding them.

>>9191851

>you have to learn to speak to goats if you want to truly learn about a religion that turned Eastern Rome into the garbage dump of earth

>>9191823
I am inclined to believe this too, still, a particularly bothersome verse is Chapter 3 Verse 85 that says:

"And whoever desires other than Islām
as religion – never will it be accepted
from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will
be among the losers."

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=3&verse=85

Given verse 84 though, I would be comfortable interpreting the core beliefs of Judaism and Christianity and other Abrahamic faiths as falling under the categorization of faiths of "submission" (i.e. Islam).

>>9191866
>bothersome.

I also agree on the 2nd interpretation, Islam is not a proper name so it encompass a large variety of things unlike, say, "judaism"

Really an esoteric readind of the hadiths and Quran is best, but you'll be called an heretic by ignorant pretty quickly (like Ibn Arabi or Meister Eckart for christians)

>>9191855

Surely you can agree that Arabic is a beautiful language to hear though?

I'd recommend you try listening to some famous nasheeds! Such as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnFtZY_DNNs

More in a purely religious context, here is a recitation of the first chapter of the Quran that Muslims recite while praying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwtpNgFw5g

>>9191893
>Ibn Arabi

"O Marvel! a garden amidst the flames.
My heart has become capable of every form:
it is a pasture for gazelles and a convent for Christian monks,
and a temple for idols and the pilgrim's Kaa'ba,
and the tables of the Torah and the book of the Quran.
I follow the religion of Love: whatever way Love's camels take,
that is my religion and my faith."

Reading some rudimentary texts and lectures on Sufism and Taqawuff definitely made me a more soft-hearted submitter.

>Really an esoteric reading of the hadiths and Quran is best
Could you suggest some books that do this?

tfw your religion prohibits you from being a good friend with me

>>9191916

Right, I have forgotten which verse says that bit about opening one's heart to non-Muslims (I am not being sarcastic, I know there is one, unless I have been a victim of some very sinful lies), care to remind me?

>>9191909
I sadly don't have any specific books to suggest because I mainly read dispatched passages on the internet but I do know some authors who gives insightful comments about Islam.

Ibn arabi as I said.
Al ghazali
Michel Valsan (a french guy but maybe his books are translated in english... he translated a lot of esoteric interpretations of the Quran by "Al Qachani" (or Qashani) a disciple of Ibn Arabi.

>>9191930
>I mainly read dispatched passages

Any particular sites of blogs you follow?

>>9191895
>Surely you can agree that Arabic is a beautiful language to hear though?
No, actually, I genuinely find it to be one of the ugliest languages.

>>9191895
Do you genuinely not know westerners often consider Arabic to be among the most unpleasant languages to listen to? Not the least for historical reasons I'm sure, but the throat fricatives also simply don't come with nice associations.

>>9191916
>>9191922
Surah 4:144
Surah 3:28
Surah 3:118
Surah 5:51
Surah 5:52
Surah 5:57
Surah 11:113

>>9191895
I love qasida burdah which you posted.

Listen to this brother it´s so beautiful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3xjz4nxzGQ

>>9191936
Yes, but they're all french. Do you still want them?

>>9191946
>Not the least for historical reasons
I live in a part of the world untouched by the plague, but I detest the language and culture nonetheless.

>>9191955
No, I can only understand English.

>>9191953
I'll try to find a video with subtitles since I do not understand Arabic.

I've always been curious though, what are the thoughts of Muslims outside India on the work of AR Rahman (it does feature instruments).

This is my favorite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnmz3vJhr2A

(Translations are particularly bad, language is Hindi or it might just be Urdu)

>>9191960
Too bad, but surely you'll find what you need if you try enough, we all started there.

>>9191973
I will listen to that video you posted later. Here a translation of that song

Rahman , Oh Rahman (the Most Merciful)
Aid me Oh Merciful
Fill my heart with love of the Quran
Open my heart to the Quran
And pour the Quran in my life.

For Allah , For Allah
My desire for Allah is passionate
So i can learn the book of Allah
Start with Bismillah (In the name of Allah)
For the closure (of the Quran) and his approval.

Oh Nur oh Nur (oh light...oh light)
Oh Quran you descended to the graduate
Unto Muhammad ﷺ by Jibril
Guided by the Lord of the Throne
For man and all that exists.

Takbir.....Takbir (Allah is the greatest,Allah is the greatest )
For the one while young who learnt the Quran
The eyes illuminate with serenity & content
Bearing the light of the Fajr (dawn) shining
And the universe enriched the recitation.

Allah Allah gather us together by your book
And make it benefit us all
Make it our fortress
Our tranquility & our eternal guide.

>>9191953
>>9191978

I found a video with subtitles quite easily (didn't even try when I to when I requested one be delivered, how impatient we can be sometimes!), it is truly a beautiful song, thank you for sharing this!

>>9191983
I can imagine my Quran only friends will be particularly touched by this.

There are actual fucking muslims on /lit/. There are probably loads on /pol/. Now it's clear where all the jewposting comes from.

>>9191916
>>9191952

A lot of this has to do with "allies" as opposed to "friends", there is an underlying point that these surahs have to do with strategic advise in times of conflict.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxcscSgznCw

That's Zakir Naik on the topic and I consider him to be one of the most hard hearted preachers I have seen.

Here's Mufti Menk, much more of a sweetheart (the music folks put in the background is quite annoying, I know):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VyaALS1H3A

I have close friends who are Non-Believers, I treat them with a lot of love.

>>9192032

Obligatory Nouman Ali Khan video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1oK4i7R22E

>>9192002

Memri TV is what Muslims are actually thinking.
These are their pundits.
Think about it.

>Most people who speak of my apocalyptic death cult have no knowledge of it, in itself, beyond it being an apocalyptic death cult.

Who cares.

>>9192041

See it's still troublesome to me that muslims think this way.
Ok so, your ancestor was once a non-muslim. Then he converted.

There's something perfidious about Islam where a lack of some kind is always assumed.
I'm an incomplete being, maybe not human being, but still incomplete for not embracing your doctrine.

>it's the my religion is not a joke episode again

>>9191784
The reason why people speak on Islam without ''truely'' knowing it as you describe yourself is because people can observe, you can put yourself in someone position and say: Hey, that text right there may be taken out of context, like with basically anything.
But no.. ofcourse.. i do not understand muslims, i can observe anything. but when i talk about muslims i am ALWAYS wrong.
Because you're pieces of total shit oppertunist cancers who will lie to themselves and secrectly hold a deep hatred against smoking and drinking passed down from the family.
Could have happened to any race or religion, could have happened to ANYONE.
BUT I HAPPENED TO YOU MUSLIMS.

>Dogmatic, literalist theology

yawn

>>9192046
>I'm an incomplete being, maybe not human being, but still incomplete for not embracing your doctrine.

Don't know what you mean about you not being human but yes, in so far as you have not submitted to God you are an incomplete being, and I hope that you someday discover his importance in your life.

>>9192053
>oppertunist cancers who will lie to themselves and secrectly hold a deep hatred
Any big religion ever.

>>9192062

So you'll never accept me fully as long as I don't convert.

How can people even be friends that way?
If I was hanging out with someone and he'd be on some sort of autistic shit that "you're my friend, but if you joined our football team, then you'd be a better friend". Excuse me to never talk to your ass again.

>>9192062

Your religion is literally saying a phrase to belong to God's flock.
A phrase.
That's it.
Not a deep religious experience is needed. Just saying a formula.
You could go on the street, convince someone in 5 seconds, have him say the phrase and he'd belong to the 'brotherhood' of islam.

Your god is a joke if that's all you need to do.

>>9192066
>So you'll never accept me fully

What do you mean by "accepting you"?
>>9192066

>"you're my friend, but if you joined our football team, then you'd be a better friend". Excuse me to never talk to your ass again.

Well, it seems you have peculiarly high standards for "friends", this is an improper analogy but I have many friends who similarly say "if only you could come out drinking with us we'd be better friends" and what not, but I still don't leave them by virtue of their being a way for us to become closer that I am not comfortable with.

Still what I'm saying isn't akin to joining a football team, I don't think embracing the Truth can be compared to that, it is something much grander.

>>9192070
>Not a deep religious experience is needed. Just saying a formula.

No islamic scholar would say that one must not genuinely believe the shahada when one is saying it.

>>9192073

Maybe you're an American or something, because Americans call a dude they talk to twice a friend.
Yes, I have high standards for friends. If us being really close is conditional, I'm out.

>>9192066
Comparing GOD to a football team.

Man, I understand your sentiment but even Jesus who was SO TOLERANT said the same thing about one's family.

>>9192079

How do you even check it?
"Yeah I was totally serious when I said it."

>>9192070
>Not a deep religious experience is needed. Just saying a formula.
>You could go on the street, convince someone in 5 seconds, have him say the phrase and he'd belong to the 'brotherhood' of islam.

Seriously, where did you get this idea from? What kind of shallow Muslims have you been talking to?

>>9192081
Not an American, I do find it very funny how a lot of Westerners see America as the embodiment of all things evil though!

>If us being really close is conditional, I'm out.
You're telling me that, for all the people you consider as friends, there is nothing you can change about yourself that would make you closer friends?

Are you married? Because anyone with a wife they love and adore is aware of the necessity of saying "I'm sorry, even though you feel we could be closer if I took more time off work, this is something I must do".

>>9192079

All this scholar, and law school, and all this other authority crap really makes me hate Islam even more.
You people have enshrined not thinking for yourselves as a virtue.

I really hope than those talking bad about Islam aren't the one parroting and namedropping Aquinas every time they have a chance on /lit/

It's like having an opinion on christianity based on the common baptist in the deep south or peasants in the middle ages.

Read Averroes (inspired Aquinas) or Ibn Arabi idk.

>>9192095

>Seriously, where did you get this idea from? What kind of shallow Muslims have you been talking to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT1KV6Qlj88

>>9191946
You should listen to a good oral recitation of the Quran, it can be really beautiful.

Also, a question that's probably been asked a million times: what is a non-crap english translation of the Quran for a novice? The version in my local bookstore was in imitation King James english which seemed pretty dumb to me.

>>9192051
says someone who probably knows jack shit about Islam

>>9192092
>How do you even check it?
Well obviously you can't know definitively but the point stands that simply saying the words is not sufficient.

If other actions revealed that said person did not honestly believe it when he took shahada, then they would not be considered a Muslim, in fact many modern orthodox Muslims have taken quite a liking to calling other Muslims Not-Real-Muslims, so much so that there is even a word to condescendingly refer to these Non-Muslim-Callers, i.e. takfiris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfiri

>>9192095

>"I'm sorry, even though you feel we could be closer if I took more time off work, this is something I must do".

Nah, I'd just beat the crap out of her, subhunallah.

>>9192104
Saheeh International is a very highly commended translation.
https://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Quran%20-%20Saheeh%20International%20Translation%20.pdf

Supplement this with reading the following abridged version of a commentary on the Quran called the Tafheem:
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=2&verse=130

If you read the Quran on its one it'll be a very, very, boring experience.

>>9192107
>Well obviously you can't know definitively but the point stands that simply saying the words is not sufficient.

Doesn't matter. If he says the words, he's in.
If you can't lie detector his ass during, it doesn't matter. He's saying it. That's all you can go with.

This is the problem with exotericism. The criterea are too weak. It's not a big stepping stone. Just splash some water over someone's face. Say a phrase. "But u gotta b super duper serial, k?!"
Excuse me, but there's more integrity to a masonic lodge than to your "slaver is cool" cave revelation by a dude with epilepsy.

>>9192099

Right, I agree with you there, I too find it distasteful that Islamic scholars are so highly revered but my point was simply that, even orthodox folks and folks orthodox muslims look up to, wouldn't agree that inner sincerity is needed when saying the Sahabah.

>>9192117
Can't do esotericism without the exoteric part bro.
Ever read Guenon?

Yeah it's too weak, but what can we do? We can't read hearts.

>worshiping the moon goddess Isis
No thanks, goat. I'd rather not worship one of the many faces of Lucifer.

>>9192121
>wouldn't agree that inner sincerity is needed when saying the Sahabah.
I mean they would agree*

Dare you accuse me of a Freudian slip! haha.

>>9192131

I do read Guenon. He's ok. He's got "the Tradition" totally wrong though. Like most Traditionalists.

>Yeah it's too weak, but what can we do? We can't read hearts.

You can. But your religion would behead these organizations that do induce transformative experiences and can notice it did have an effect.

>>9191784
Islam is a downgrade from Christian ethics.

Christ preaches turning the other cheek, Muhammad preaches eye for an eye.

>>9192139
What is tradition then?

Also you're talking as if exoterism wasn't hostile to esoterism in general.
A lot of esoteric christians were accused of heresy.

Also esoteric organisation don't usually care about the masses anyway, hypocrites are only fooling themselves.

>>9192139
>But your religion would behead these organizations

I don't know about this but in general I will mention that there is a lot of dissatisfaction (among a new wave of modernist Muslims and among many orthodox scholars of the ulema) surrounding how little emphasis Muslims place on tasawuff or Sufism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

>>9192158
Btw, you've been in conversation with atleast two people, do keep that in mind when considering my opinions.>>9192158

>>9192155

I'm well aware of exotericism its teeth grinding suspicions about most esoteric takes. It's why I abandoned Christianity. When I tried to talk to Catholic priests and just Christians in general about my mystical experiences or esotericism in general, he was only mildly responsive to it. Too prone to heresy he claimed. And that was it for me. If my deepest and most transformative of moments doesn't fit your institution "sanctioned spiritual experiences", I'm out.

>Also esoteric organisation don't usually care about the masses anyway, hypocrites are only fooling themselves.

They don't. That's true. And that's why I think spirituality of the mystical kind ( which to me is the deepest one can go and reach ) isn't meant for everyone. And I don't really mind that. Let people have their folklore. Their customs and routines that give meaning to the daily grind. Let them have the dummie tier take on nature, or the gods, angels, etc. Don't expect them to be theologians. Don't expect people to be as much a devotee as you are. And that's my problem with most (post-)Axial Age religions. They expect everyone to at least aspire to become like the religious scholar, the hermit, the monk, etc. Somehow "they do better", while for most of human history, people were just people.

>>9192155

>What is tradition then?

The tradition that Guenon and others point to is a historical construct.
It's basically a theosophist fantasy.
If anything IS a tradition that is prehistorical, it's what we would call superstition, it's the tendency people have to make charms, do spells, perform witchcraft and and other shamanic practises. Which is also much more female oriented and not this Evolian male-solar-dick worship.

>>9192152
Luke 14:26

>Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

>>9192155
>>9192192

Which, I might add, is why I think Islam is fundamentally wrong and why I can never convert. Because what you call "jahiliyyah" is what we've always been.
The archeological record proves this.
Our distant ancestors were animists, talking to spirits in hallucinations and dreams, not prostrating monotheists.

>>9192106

I know enough to know it has no fucking place in our borders given its history of endlessly trying to conquer us with bloodshed and that there doesn't exist a single Muslim country worth visiting.

>>9192198
Horrible reading comprehension and a complete lack of understanding of even the most basic theological concepts - as expected of a muslim

>>9192184
I understand your feelings and I agree. A lot of believers makes me sad even though I admire the most devout ones for their blind faith.
Though, I think you made a mistake by renouncing christianism. Exoteric rituals have a "raison d'être" and aren't merely tools to keep the people going they need to be understood and given a higher meaning. The majority of mystics, enlightened people, etc subscribed fully to the exoteric law.
That's why protestantism is practically devoid of saints or mystics even though they preach for a more "direct and personnal faith"

>>9192202
What is unity through multiplicity?

People in the ancient times knew this, but because we live in a spiritually darkened era, religions needs to affirm unity in the most explicit way possible.

"Dios ha muerto, y nosotros lo hemos matado.
¿Cómo podríamos consolarnos, los asesinos de todos los asesinos?".

How do David Wood's videos make you Muslims feel? Is he wrong? Can you actually refute any of his videos?

Quran 3:28
Let not believers take disbelievers as allies rather than believers. And whoever [of you] does that has nothing with Allah , except when taking precaution against them in prudence. And Allah warns you of Himself, and to Allah is the [final] destination.

>>9191802

46:12
>And before it was the scripture of Moses to lead and as a mercy. And this is a confirming Book in an Arabic tongue to warn those who have wronged and as good tidings to the doers of good.

6:155-157
>[We revealed it] lest you say, "The Scripture was only sent down to two groups before us, but we were of their study unaware," Or lest you say, "If only the Scripture had been revealed to us, we would have been better guided than they." So there has [now] come to you a clear evidence from your Lord and a guidance and mercy. Then who is more unjust than one who denies the verses of Allah and turns away from them? We will recompense those who turn away from Our verses with the worst of punishment for their having turned away.

3:3-4
>He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur'an. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, and Allah is exalted in Might, the Owner of Retribution.

5:68
>Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.

The Quran says in many places that 1) the scriptures of the Jews and Christians were not corrupted, and 2) the Quran was revealed in Arabic because the Arabs had not yet received a revelation like the Jews and Christians had. It was so they had no excuse on judgment day.

Any Muslim who tells you that theirs in the one true faith and one needs to convert isn't speaking from their own scripture. There's literally no reason for Christians and Jews to convert. In fact, it wouldn't make any sense for them to convert for the sake of a revelation that exists solely for Arabs.

Question for Muslims here:

Doesn't it ever bother you that your holy book is a mostly incoherent fanfiction of Jewish and Christian scriptures with a whole bunch of old Christian heresies thrown in and them tempered with an almost autistic focus on narrowly-defined monotheism?

>>9193030
Their holy texts includes the Torah, and the Egyptian book of the dead you fucking retard. Solely islamic holy texts are not meant to be taken seriously
>>9192330
he is a retard who does not know what he is talking about because the Quran is not an accurate description of muslim theology

calling now that christian dogs will try to debate me on this

>>9193030
It did. That's why I'm agnostic now. I can't say anything about god, but Muhammad was definitely a psycho.

Muslims: why is sex such a taboo for Muslims when they are rewarded for their abstinence with sex in paradise? That's just one of many, many inconsistencies you will find.

>>9193047

Not either of those anons but I'm interested in your opinion.

How does it make you feel knowing that your culture is such a gigantic failure that if the world had fallen to Islam we'd have never made it out of the middle ages let alone to the industrial era?

>>9193047
>the Quran is not an accurate description of muslim theology

You're going to have to back this up somehow, because according to the Quran itself, the revelation from God IS the Quran. To Christians, it's not the bible. The whole of Christianity was founded on an event, the resurrection of Christ. The whole of Islam was founded on a revelation to Muhammad. So if that revelation can't even accurate describe the faith, why should anyone take it seriously?

Even if you think it's part of Islamic theology, but not the WHOLE of theology, proving that parts of the Quran contradict each other or how Muslims speak about their faith is enough to debunk it. The Quran may not give a complete picture, but if it were to say something opposite to what we're told about Islam, that is surely a mark against the faith.

>>9193066
I'm an atheist, but don't be a retard anon. The Islamic golden age was a thing, you know. And while Islam does retard development, dont make such sweeping generalizations you ignorant that.

>>9193070
>if it were to say something opposite to what we're told about Islam
>what we're told about Islam = it's a religion of peace!!

KILL ALL INFIDELS
I
L
L

A
L
L

I
N
FIDELS!!

>>9193066
you are completely oblivious of the goings-on of the theological world. The 'gigantic failure' of the muslim society (which is literally just impiety) does not compare to the "middle ages" because their nature was completely separate as the chrsitian dogs waged war without the technology or food to assault castles en masse with the exception of some conquerors in the latter days (like Gustaves Aldophos who lead his people into extinction.

The reason why the muslim lands appear that way is because were they pious Allah would have to conquer them all from powerful kings whose people adored them, whereas now, they can be conquered with ease to pursue the apocalypse.

>>9193074

The Islamic Golden Age may as well be a myth, to be honest. It's exaggerated and for all the philosophy, there's still a good reason that an exact science like we see now was never even close to materializing in the Islamic world and could only have come from Christians.

>>9193081

Your post is about as incoherent as the Quran, but from what I can tell you bought into a Dark Ages myth, I'm guessing? You actually believe the Middle Ages were a dark period? lol

>>9191784
inferior religion/philosophy produced by an inferior race. why should anyone bother discussing that?

>>9193081

You know the irony in having pride about a meager technological advantage of about 10 years is the Western world could effortlessly glass the entirety of the Muslim world in an instant as of about Reality O' Clock: Yesterday.

>>9193082
Because Christians have more developed brains, is that it? Don't be stupid, it was the Europeans who were considered barbarians in the dark ages.

Frankly, any society can produce genius if the proper stimulus is provided and there is an atmosphere of learning. It's the reason why the Greeks produced so many gifted individuals.

The Islamic golden age was simply the time when learning and knowledge were more important. Gifted individuals like Avicenna, averroes were born. You cannot deny that the Islamic golden age was a fact. The advances in mathematics, science, medicine, astronomy, were more complicated than anything Europe would produce untill the renaissance.

Do you think that the renaissance just suddenly produced great people like da Vinci, Michelangelo? Do you think that Europeans were somehow less developed in the dark ages? Fact of the matter is that Islam didn't hinder learning in the golden age, while Christian culture did that during the dark ages. The roles reversed as the culture changed. It very pretentious and arrogant of you to assume that only a white man could have made great discoveries when until about the 16th century, the Chinese and the Arabs were far more advanced. Grow a brain.

>>9193119
>using facts
ughh.

>>9193119

What do you think about pic related?

How does it make you feel?

>>9193119
And you cannot deny that Islamic fundamentalism killed the Islamic Golden Age. Avicenna and Averroes were basically heretics.

>>9193139
Read the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam. Written by a fellow agnostic, and tell me for yourself if it has artistic merit or not.

Fact of the matter is that the Islamic world really has produced nothing valuable. Nothing in the name of Islam anyways. It just so happens that some great thinkers were present in Muslim lands
I'm not defending Islam, it's clearly influenced progress. But assuming that progress is dulled because MuslimS are inferior is retarded, which I'm trying to show.

>>9193145
True. And I admire both of them more for it. But they were of the same race as those goat ducking fanatics, and that's a fact.

>>9193157

>But assuming that progress is dulled because MuslimS are inferior is retarded, which I'm trying to show.

I'd say look at Jerusalem circa 700AD-1944 and the work of Palestinian Jews circa 1915-1920. They were blowing Palestinian Muslims the fuck out before they were even a country.

>no knowledge of it, in itself, beyond the actions and beliefs of its followers.
There is literally nothing left to it if you subtract the actions and beliefs of its followers, you dunce.

>>9191978
Sounds gay to be honest senpai

>>9191893
Ibn Arabi ran into trouble in one town but it was short lived and he was pretty popular during his time iirc. That said I agree with everything else.

>>9192002
newfags wouldn't know this but there was a based shi`ibro that posted once in a while, and there was Iranman too. Also Islam is as interesting (I'd say more) as the rest of the Abrahamic religions but at least it doesn't get shilled here like /pol/tardian Christianity.

>>9193082
>>9193145
>>9193163
Central Asians killed the Abbasids, as a matter of fact. "Islamic fundamentalism" is a modern political ideology created in the vacuum created by capitalist intervention's slaughtering of both traditional scholars and leftist opposition and the installing of friendly dictators in the Middle-East. Kill all the sufis and fuqaha and the semi-illiterate warlords become prophets. Make an apocalypse and people adapt apocalyptic worldviews. Oddly enough it's the integration of Muslims into Western society that is actually reintroducing more authentically traditional Islam, as well as opening their eyes about how deeply guilty the Western powers are regarding the state of their homelands.

>>9191784
>Most people who speak of Islam have no knowledge of it, in itself, beyond the actions and beliefs of its followers.

Imagine there's a book on mechanical engineering and all the people who learn from it end up building nothing but shit tier cars, I'd for sure think it's a garbage book even without reading it.

If a religious book ends up creating nothing but shit tier individuals then I'll think the same about it.

>>9194215
>shit tier individuals
do you have a way to messure that objectively?

>almost every Islamic country on earth is an utter shithole
>almost every Christian country on earth is, in comparison, a paradise

Why are we trying to import them, again?

>>9194197
Good post.

>>9192063
I'm not muslim but kindly fuck off

>>9194241
>Christian countries

Which ones?

>>9194215
By your logic we should all an hero because you exist.

>>9192101
I think that the guy shitting on Islam is one atheist. I'm a catholic and while I hate the fundamentalist shit I can accept the belief.

RELIGION OF PEACE!

DIE INFIDELS!

>>9194283

>>9194228

I mean if you want to get really creative you could create a list of countries where women get beat to death with rocks for not wearing a trash bag and see what religion they are.

Or a list of nations where people come from that shoot up cartoonists for making fun of their religious figures.

I honestly can't think of a single country on earth that was actually better for having taken Muslims in. If you need a better analogy for the big step back Islam is consider that what they now inhabit was once one half of the Roman Empire and is now the asshole of earth.

>>9194298
I see.

>>9194228
>do you have a way to messure that objectively?

I hope you realize there's no way to have an objective view on this topic, and you asking that kind of question is basically using a cheap tactic to corner the other party but:

>Widespread extreme misoginy, to the point where women who dared to do anything slightly off the norm have been killed even in the 21st century.
>No worthwhile philosophers whatsoever in their entire history.
>No good artists in general.
>Average music.

Now compare it to other cultures.

>greeks were basically at the peak of humanity 10 centuries before them.
>Romans were doing much more worthwhile stuff in the same century as them.
>Christians basically btfo'd anything the muslims had ever done by the renaissance times.
>Meanwhile, muslims still live using the same moral system everyone else had abandoned by the 19th/20th century.

>no worthwhile philosophers in their entire history

1/10, tipped your hand too much. Move along /lit/izens.

>>9194309
It isn't my intention to "corner" anyone.
You seem to have a point.

>>9193119

It has nothing to do with developed brain, it has to do with the faith. Christianity is a theological religion. Islam isn't. In Islam, theology is basically just jurisprudence. Christianity is truthfully the only religion where theology (a knowledge of God beyond the simply personal) is valued and not a hindrance.

Your whole post betrays an ignorance of this. Just the fact that you use the term Dark Ages to refer to a time where people like Aquinas, Abelard, Duns Scotus, etc, were going places theologically and philosophically that Islam couldn't dream of. And to this day, the faiths represent this well. The Dark Ages were a myth as much as the Islamic Golden Age is an exaggeration.

Look at Christian philosophy and the fruits of Christian approaches to knowledge and look at the state of what Muslims call their "theology."

>>9193119

Also, none of those advances in science or mathematics were exact sciences as we know them today. Sure, Muslims contributed to Christendom, but the empirical science that we know today is a outgrowth of Christian approaches to nature and reason.

>>9194241
I'd take living in Morocco anytime over living in s*rbia

Arabic calligraphy is beautiful. I intensely dislike how the language sounds though. What's good Arabic literature that isn't related to Islam?

>>9192152
>cuckstiniaty

>>9192002
More are coming, my fellow friend of the book ;^)

>>9192002
>Jews and Muslims like each other

>>9194110

>tripfag
>not a newfag

>>9194197

Islamists are usually well educated and middle class. Fundamentalism is a way to cope with the dislocation and stress of modern urban life. There are no "semi-literate warlords" in Riyadh, Ankara, or Tehran.

It's ironic though, because you're a literal communist, and you're standing up for religion, which according to your prophet is the "Opium of the Masses." I guess as long as brown people are doing religion it's a-ok from a commie perspective.

>>9191784
You rang?

>>9195729

Serbia is statistically a much safer country.

>>9192205
>history of endlessly trying to conquer us with bloodshed

What the actual fuck are you talking about? Christians have done a lot more bloody conquering in the last 200 years than Muslims have. Sorry, but I think you're extremely uneducated about islam and its history, and probably listening to a bunch of hysterical bullshit from people on 4chan.

>>9196342

You're right anon I apologize for my ignorance.

Turning the dirt of New Hampshire into a technological paradise is really the same thing as taking the remnants of the Sassanids and Byzantines and turning once great Empires into the laughing stock of the planet.

Currently reading ISIS: A State of terror

Does that count?

Filthy Kafir Westerner here, I'd start a fitna inside her if you catch my drift.

can someone recommend me a good reading on the caliphate of Cordoba or middle ages islam in general?

>>9192051
Why are wojaks and pepes enemies?

>>9191784
>beyond the actions and beliefs of its followers.

What is a religion except exactly that? A book is a book and nothing more unless the follower believes it.

>>9191784
>beyond the actions and beliefs of its followers.

Which is all I need to know.

What is modern Islam doing to reform itself to be more compatible with Western democracy and liberalism? Where is the pressure to reform coming from?

>>9191955
Please post anon. I would be interested

>>9196424
Generational cultural transfer is fundamentally distorted when you're in the West instead of the Middle-East, progress is slow but it is happening.

>>9196433

What's sad is that there would be no progress at all if we weren't here to show you how real human beings live.

Japan probably industrialized quicker than anybody. They got on board the second that Europeans came in contact with them.

Muslims still hadn't done so by the time the Ottoman Empire fell.

>>9196378

b-but ISIS has nothing to do with Islam

They're not TRUE Muslims!

>>9196487
It's a very secular interpretaton of Shariah and Islam that not neither shi'ites or Sunni Muslims subscribe to.

>>9196427
Here you go anon

http://alsimsimah.blogspot.com/search/label/Al%20Ghaz%C3%A2l%C3%AE?m=0

http://esprit-universel.over-blog.com/search/ibn%20arabi/

http://esprit-universel.over-blog.com/search/michel%20valsan/

>>9196517

What is the most popular interpretation of Shariah? How does it compare to English common law?

>>9195760
That post was implying the exact opposite. I bet a large portion of anons who post hooked-nose memes are mudslimes. Not to mention the actual unironic anti-semites.

>>9191946
What world do you live in.

Are you actively trying to kill Salman Rushdie as your duty demands?

Islam threads are on the same level as Sam Harris, Ayn Rand, and Marxism threads.

>>9196855
Why the fuck bump it then?

>>9196855
At least they're better than Christian threads.

Harris, Rand and Marx threads are full of butthurt autists forged in the crucible of """Debate""". Christian threads are full of literally holier-than-though pseuds. I know which I prefer.

>>9196868
You mad?

>>9196874
Why would I be mad?
You sad?

>>9196900
Always.

>>9196909
Such is /lit/.

>>9196869
Of course you do, goat fucker.

>>9196934
That's really just a slur for all Abrahamic religions when you think about it.

t. Jew

>>9192106
I know that like any other religion it's based in some kind of idealism, I don't know wich idealistic system better fits islam but my guess is that in modern times it's based on some variation of transcedental or subjetive idealism.

>>9192205
I'm not this person and I would be pleased if xhe could stop impersonating me.

Although xhe is right to a extend. Through history, Islam like any other bog religion, caused a blood wash.

>>9194245
>fuck off
>hatred