/lit/ - Literature

>>9121256
No such thing as a real man, sounds like you're being haunted.

>>9121280
xplain

What is a man? Nothing but a miserable pile of secrets

>>9121256
You have an eternal Father in heaven, anon.

>>9121286
Not the person you're responding to.

There is no such thing as a "real man." There are men, and that is all, etc. It seems to me he put it as concisely as possible.

you guys are not on the same wave as me

Jack Donovan
Mike Cernovich
etc

>>9121256
Tom Clancy

>>9121291
DIE MON

>>9121256
Hemmmingway

>>9121256
Books on black self-improvement.

>>9121291
PRETENTIOUS
R
E
T
E
N
T
I
O
U
S

>>9121343
I hope you mean as a How Not To guide.

>>9121256
Take responsibility for making the world the way you want it to be. Stop complaining and work. This is masculinity. Or don't I don't care.

>>9122642
Any other approach to masculinity is purely cosmetic and cosmetic approaches focus on appearance which is done for social acceptance which is the essence of the feminine drive.

>>9121256
Ecclesiastes.

it's a letter from King Solomon to his countless sons(he had ~1000 wives) about how to live right and be a good man because he knew he couldn't be a father to all of them.
Also the best book of the Bible.
Also the best book of existentialist philosophy
Also the best book.

>>9121256
No more Mr nice guy
Rational male

The Apology of Socrates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming-of-age_story

it is a shame that they edited the page, for some reason "The Phenomenology of Spirit" was in the literature list some time ago

>>9122693
This is a good one. Also Aurelius' Meditations

>>9121256

even if you did have a father chances are he wouldn't be qualified to teach you "how to be a real man"
most of them aren't

Just read Hemingway

Ernst Junger

>>9121256
Why don't you know your dad, op?

Read a bunch of stoic texts

Orphan hero? How about every story ever.

>>9122642
>TIL masculinity means not complaining at work

>>9123200
Is he natty?

>>9122910
I'm also curious.

>>9121256
Tao Te Ching

>>9122642
>Stop complaining and work
masculinity= being a slave to the boss, apparently

>>9121256
If you don't mind horror, there's a book called 'The Ego and Its Own'.

>never had a dad
how were u born

>>9121256
The patrician option does not involve a healthy normie two parent childhood or growing up without a dad, but growing up with a really shitty dad. I feel that's what's best, in terms of preparing you for the brutal world that is out there, where all authority figures tend to be either insane, brutal, incompetent to the point of stupidity or al of the above.

>>9125189
>justifying your shitty dad to yourself on /lit/
lel dude

How To Be A Gentleman by John Bridges is excellent.

If you grew up without a father you are fucked. Nothing you can do about it. My mother did the best job she could to raise me by herself, and I love her for it, but if there is no father you miss something important in your development. You can't turn back time and get it back. It's a permanent wound.

>>9121256
Bukowski...

>>9125247
that sux

>>9121256
literally my diary, desu

>>9125505
If you ever have kids (lol) remember it then and don't abandon them.

>>9125531
how a father raised by a mother will be?

>>9125673
Better than your own father, at least.

Iron John

You seem incredibly spooked lol

bump

>>9121256
Op are you black?

just be gay

Masculinity is obsolete. Take the blue pill, faggots.

Pic related

bump

>>9122642
the world is a fucking mess, why should I care?

>>9123200
I misread it like that also, lel

>>9121256
Sun and Steel by Mishima

>>9121256

The Moral Discourses of Epictetus are the most comprehensive guide to becoming a real man.

>>9127350
/lit/ will come up with any excuse for their lack of masculinity

many such cases - sad!

>>9127454
>the world is a fucking mess, why should I care?

t. protestant women

Life is the will to power, and nothing besides. If you're not making the world in your image, what the fuck are you doing?

>>9125247
this anon gets it.

>>9127565
edgy
I'm pretty sure you are just a deluded fag
you just can't make the world your image. at most, you can influence it a bit... how much you can depends on your position in society, or your ability to destroy it
I'm not saying I don't want to change the world in some way or another, I'm saying people suck, and changing it for what one considers "good" takes a lot of effort, especially when people oppose you for the most retarded reasons

>>9121291
LOL Holy shit. I spit my juice out.

>>9127601
>taking action and following your morals is edgy
>saying people suck and it's useless to try to change things isn't

>>9127601
>implying sisyphus wasn't happy

>>9125247
What if you grew up with a shitty step-dad that never treated you as a son?

>>9127632
perhaps you don't know the kind of people I've known... actually, perhaps you just don't know how retarded most humans are. why do anything with/for them? in the end, you have to do stuff for yourself. if that benefits them, good, otherwise, fuck them

also
>morals
you mean political ideology. morals without ideology sounds retarded to me

>>9121256
If you have a Y chromosome, you're a real man.

>>9127694
You're right, it's better to live like a cuck because doing anything takes effort and "people oppose you for the most retarded reasons." It's good that you've figured out existence. I'm sure you've gone everywhere, done everything, and met every person there is. The guy who uses ellipses and doesn't capitalize words. The guy who generalizes like a 14 year old on /r9k/. People can be dumb. Don't try and educate them. Don't learn how to properly explain why you're doing something. Fuck them, only look out for yourself. You're better off not doing anything with anyone because sometimes you can get hurt by other people. That's a good way to live, cut off from everyone and acting high and mighty on 4chan because
>perhaps you don't know the kind of people I've known...

>>9127746
Everything you've said works well as a critique of pessimism, until
>only look out for yourself

If he were doing that, he wouldn't be a pessimist. He is, in fact, looking out for "mean other people," who spook him

>>9125247

Dad died when I was very young, can confirm. I'm 30 and i still don't know what to do about it.

>>9127767
this

>>9127746
you just don't get it
also
>worrying about capitalization
>in an anonymous literature board
see. retarded people, worrying about stupid shit instead of important stuff.

>>9127869
What's important stuff?

>>9128084
how to change the world without letting retards fuck it up
if you have some magic recipe, please let us know. that day, I'll stop being a pessimist

>>9125247
I agree with this statement.

One thing, though: even though there is nothing you can do about it, don't you have to try to do something about it? Even if you know all of these attempts will end in failure?

This is a rhetorical question. The answer is, yes, and, this is an evasion.

Suicide or tragedy. Tragedy is better.

>>9128108
>how to change the world without letting retards fuck it up
>my ego is so large I can't handle any outside interference to any plan I make
Realizing that others are alive and conscious, some of them more self aware than you, might help you.

>>9122655
Fuck me my mind is blown

>>9128141
>>>how to change the world without letting retards fuck it up
>>my ego is so large I can't handle any outside interference to any plan I make
History is full of examples of how good ideas end up being a disaster, simply because people didn't understand them, or because corrupt people took advantage of their position instead of helping, or...

>>9128167
I guess you're right. Someone as smart as you can't have their ideas meddled with. It's better if you just never accomplished anything. You don't want your great ideas being messed with. (I'm assuming they're great ideas, why else would you be so worried about them being changed? They're literally perfect and so are you!)

Sometimes when me and my father trade goodbyes, there is something unspoken between us, a mutual undestanding and acknowledgement that we cannot say it aloud, but we know that we both know: I love you, stay safe, good luck. By some ancient law of nature it is forbidden to us, and we bow down and stay true to this law; a bittersweet privilegde of fathers and their sons.

>>9128220
then you clean his cum off your face and go back into the basement cell

>>9121256
Have Honor and you are a man. Earn what you learn. Be honest/honorable.
Be a pansy, faerie freak with flashy, shallow, shiny jewelry and you are insecure girl.

Try to understand females and what they've endured, written by women:
Loving someone with anxiety: understanding & helping your partner
Thieda, Kate N.
The dance of anger: a woman's guide to changing the patterns of intimate relationships
Lerner, Harriet Goldhor.
I wrote lots of positive notes on this one, even though he's a male:
Forging healthy connections: how relationships fight illness, aging and depression
Crow, Trevor

>>9127350
Jesus was pretty masculine. Well, he did bring about a lot of conflict.

>>9127634
Sisyphus pretended to be happy, because the reality was too cruel.

>>9127350
I actually was in the thread this was posted in and remember the first time this was posted, and am surprised someone took the time to save it. I wouldn't have remembered it unless you had saved and reposted it, and it is a very uninteresting and shitty post. In short, fuck you.

>>9121291

This boy's life by Tobias wolf

>>9125734

I heard this was good OP

>>9125673
I can tell you about some.

>>9121256
The Aeneid.

>>9130144
>>9121256
(Forgot to say) I've never read it myself but enough credible people have recommended it that I'd feel remiss not mention "Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius.

Every father should leave his son. It's the truest test.

If the boy survives and makes himself a man, he will become an Ubermensch and immortalise himself through history.

If the boy fails, he will rightfully die a last man and be forgotten forever.

Every father should leave his soon, so that the cub may have the chance to become the wolf.

>>9130163

That's just stupid mate. My father died when I was 11. You don't even notice his absence when the mourning ends, and I say that as someone who was close to his father. It's just a new way of life you have to get used to. I'm like anyone else, whether they have a father or don't. There's no "test", no "becoming Ubermensch" and no "failing" because of the absence of a parent. There's mourning, then there's life as usual.

I've met people who lost their parents one way or another, and they were the same. "I'd rather have a father but it's not insufferable without him."

>>9130163

>going through this many mental gymnastics to justify the actions of your deadbeat dad and the growing destruction of the family unit

whatever you need to do to get by, son.

>>9121256
Personally, I found it sad when Harry Potter finally found a father figure in his Uncle Black, only to have him get lost in that funky mirror of death thing. I had a father, but he's the single biggest fucking prick I've ever met in my life, and the greatest source of negativity and potentially even judgement I've ever experienced. I cried during the movie Click because Adam Sandler had a father who actually gave a fuck about him.

I think I sound angsty and cringy as fuck even though my teen years were over half a decade ago...

>>9130942
You should honestly be glad if your father is a prick and not a little bitch, you can do a lot worse than being an asshole

>>9121291
t. Malraux

>>9130987
I believe a good father should support their kids. If they do something stupid, then yeah, let them know that what they did was stupid, but a good father ought to encourage their kids to pursue their interests. They also shouldn't berate them simply for not sharing the same interests as said father.

My old man hates firearms, which is one of the greatest passions in my life. He probably couldn't use one if he tried, and I believe he has an actual fear of them. I've never seen him in a fight, and I don't think he's ever been in a real fight. He likes to act tough, he likes to say "he wouldn't say that if I were around" or "if I were there he wouldn't do any of that shit". He has his own beliefs, and if anyone doesn't share those beliefs then they are wrong, and that's that. They are wrong, and deserving of disrespect and mockery.

He's an absolute white knight when it comes to his girlfriend, he's had two failed marriages already, and he seems incapable of accepting responsibility for his actions. He acts like a prick, and if you bring it up later down the road he basically tells you to grow up; it happened a long time ago. He's the absolute king of mind games, and while in his younger days he was HUGELY into sports and in great shape, he's now balding, greying, overweight, and might potentially become paralyzed in the near future due to just how fucked up his back is. I could kick his as so badly that he'd literally end up in the hospital, but he acts like he's still tough shit. He still thinks he's top dog.

I've had a gf before who you could say had a father who was something of a little bitch. Nerdy, soft-spoken generally, pretty kind, just generally pleasant to be around. It was his wife who was the ball-breaker, generally it was her who dealt the punishments and raised her voice. I still firmly believe that he has been a better father to his children than mine has been. We nearly got in a fight a couple weeks ago. He got up, seemed like he was going to confront me, and with a grin on my face I took a step forward. IMMEDIATELY he seemed to buckle, deflected himself away from my direction and towards the rocking chair, sat down, and continued to look pissed off while spewing abuse.

Not only is my old man a little bitch, but he's a little bitch with a big fucking mouth. Rarely treats others with disrespect though; it's mostly just immediate family, and he RELISHES in talking behind people's backs. It's to the immediate family that he talks shit to their face. It's all talk though. Just talk.

>>9121256
My dad died of cancer when I was younger, and I can relate. Not necessarily how to be a real man (surely "a real man" is thoroughly subjective) but more so how to carry myself among them. I haven't a clue why.

>>9131086
It will be easier once you realize that most men doubt their masculinity, especially those who asked themselves what a "real man" is like.

Man-to-man interactions are full of subconscious and conscious, intentional and unintentional power-plays, both sides trying to "out-male" the other. Once you notice the patterns in speech and non-verbal communication and take part in them, you'll know how to carry yourself around men. A dare, a dismissive look in the eye or pat on the back, an unusually strong handshake, the boasting, the veiled insults aimed at you and your accomplishments, trying to make you look like less of a man.

I'm not telling you to obsess over these, because if you do you'll look like a joke. Just think it through and see if you agree. Be conscious of it and take part if you do. That's what most men do, even if they don't realize.
Read some Hemingway, masculinity and these power-plays are a common theme in his works. See The Sun also rises for a good example.

>>9121256
Unironically, the Bible.

Unironically, start with the Greeks.

>>9131176
This has been one of the more meaningful posts in regards to this, thank you.
I'm aware of all this (and have also read Hemingway, thanks for the suggestion) yet it doesn't seem to come as natural to me as it does to others. I suppose it's not too big of a deal, but it can be draining sometimes.

>>9131266

> it doesn't seem to come as natural to me as it does to others.

You can never know if it's more natural to them, if it's intentional or subconscious. One man might know about it and another might not, yet they act the same way, playing the same game.

I've never felt that it's draining though. I think I've accepted it as a fact of life. I even enjoy it sometimes.

So did we find out OP's backstory yet?

bump

>>9121291
WOKE
O
K
E

>>9129934
>oh, great, lets have this debate.

Sisyphus wasn't happy, he was empty. It is an allegory for the dissolution of the ego. Sisyphus ceased to exist as an individual with individual desires, so he didn't care where he was or what he was doing. He stopped feeling.

Books: Fight Club, Hemingway's short stories, Thom Jones' short stories (Pugalist at Rest), Winston Churchill's works (any), etc. Look for strong male role models and act in accordance to their values (if not their specific actions).

More importantly, lift, get a physical hobby, go to a boxing lesson, learn to create/repair/assemble something, do something that most people wouldn't normally.

There is an idea of what "a man" is, and it's essentially someone who is strong, capable, independent, and wise. Strive towards those values.

>>9131184
This.

>>9121280
fpbp

>>9122693
Get this book.

>>9122655
>social acceptance doesn't help with will to power
You're a fucking idiot.

>>9125146
>all work involves having a boss
BE the boss anon

>>9130903
>I'm like anyone else, whether they have a father or don't.

Oh honey...

bump

>>9131176
>>9131266
>>9121343

I never felt Hemingway's character's were particularly masculine. Every book the protagonist was an apathetic, miserable wanderer. (old man and the sea excluded, obviously)

Frederic Henry abandons the war for his waifu
Jake Barnes is literally impotent and gets beat up by 1920s larry david
Robert Jordan... just fucks a 12 year old girl and randomly brandishes absinthe every so often

Hemingway himself was not a great figure of masculinity. Anyone who was surrounded with those pansy jazz age expats would seem like hercules by comparison.

>>9138693
What´d you suggest?

>>9138693
>>9138693

Hemingway wrote emasculated men/men doubting their masculinity and contrasted them with an idealized man.

In The Sun also rises:

Jake - impotent, depressed, cries a lot

Cohn - Feels like less of a man for not having fought in WWI and because of his Jewish heritage. Tried to compensate by boxing.

Bill - Unable to feel (or accept) deep affection from other men, thinks he'd be called a faggot for calling Jake a good friend, so he doesn't say anything about their friendship unless they're alone.

Mike - Insecure about his financial situation, about not being to provide for Brett. He feels emasculated by Brett's constant cheating. He blows up when others mention these subjects.

These characters are put in contrast with the young bullfighter, Pedro. He's masculine, confident and self-assured enough to try to save Brett from being a ho.

It's easier to notice (more in-the-face) in his short stories, e.g. "The short happy life of Francis Macomber"
Francis is painted as a "coward" for running away from a lion on a safari. The hunter (Wilson IIRC), the "manly man" in the short story doesn't run, he's brave. He also fucks Francis's wife. Francis is obviously angry, but not enough to ditch the wife. The hunter wonders how can a man get used to a cheating (and controlling) wife, to the constant emasculation.

I recommend Hemingway because it's apparent that most doubt their masculinity even if it doesn't look like it. He gently exaggerates the constant "games" men play around each other to see who has the biggest dick.

>>9121286

It's a defense shrouded in insecurity.

Because they are weak, fragile, beta, and have no control over their lives, they think that they too are also men, just of different class.

When in fact they are just boys. REAL MEN aka MEN don't eat tendies.