/lit/ - Literature

The average daily reading load is about 30 pages. There will be catch-up days throughout, and the pace is subject to change.

If some of the content doesn't interest you, you are free to skip it.

Timeline of important literary figures in the Archaic Period.

Pop Quiz

Define the following terms:
>archon
>oikist
>thetes
>agora
>symposium

I'm about 6 books into the Iliad and holy shit does this thing show it's age. I think the thing I hate most about it is the number of times one character will say something, then tell another character to tell someone else and they repeat it word for word. It's interesting how it views war though. You have people stabbing each other in the gut, through the neck, in the eye socket and men falling over dead all over the place and yet you still have the two sides coming together every so often for a 3 page long dialogue. It's kind of jarring since my modern sensibility forces me to wonder if they can get along so well, pray to the same gods and exchange gifts why can't they just declare peace. It all seems like such a meaningless waste of life.

>>9033331
>symposium
drinking party

>agora
central square of the polis

>>9033348
>It's kind of jarring since my modern sensibility forces me to wonder if they can get along so well, pray to the same gods and exchange gifts why can't they just declare peace.

Really?

>>9033526
WW1 was the most pointless war in history.

>>9033526
>WW1
>Modern

This was really good and really makes u think, anyone finishing The Iliad should give this a read considering it's only 50 pages.

>When this beautiful disaster had been made, Zeus brought her out and wonder took hold of gods and men when they beheld her. From her, the first woman, comes the race of women, who are an evil to men, with a nature to do evil.
/r9k/ is right.

>>9034318
Of all the words of tongue and pen the saddest are these "r9k was right again"

>Keep her commands, O email-devouring Hillary, and let verdicts be straight; yes, lay your crooked ways aside!
Jesus Christ, Hesiod.

>>9034318
>>9034330
>Marry a virgin so that you can teach her proper habits, and especially marry one who lives near you; and check all around so that your marriage will not be a joke to your neighbors, for nothing is better for a man than a good wife and nothing more horrible than a bad one
NO HYMEN NO DIAMOND
/r9k/ IS RIGHT!

When does it start? Or has it already started? In that case, how late am I?

>>9034415
I think we're on day six. Starting Hesiod today I believe. Check the syllabus to see what came before. Mainly readings from Mythology and A Brief History

DAY SEVEN

Readings
>Handbook of Classical Mythology, "Muses". pp. 154-5.
>Hesiod, Theogony. ACM pp. 129-160

Pictured is a muse.

>>9033331
>archon
A type of leader without absolute powers that emerged after the basileis.
>oikist
City-dweller? Just a guess.
>thetes
Kind of a wage slave.
>agora
City square/marketplace.
>symposium
Homosexual orgy that took place under the guise of discussing philosophy.

I noticed that both Theogony and Iliad start with a homage to the Muses, checked Works and Days and the first couple of lines are also about them. Why is this, is it just a thank you from Hesiod and Homer for receiving the gift of song, or is it some kind of belief that by mentioning them, they will receive their benevolence and the play will be better received. Furthermore, Muses are also marking the start of the last part of Theogony - "Now sing of the Goddesses, Olympian Muses", it sounds farfetched, but I like to believe that the Muses opening and closing the poem is a notion that everything starts and ends with art and beauty.

Other than that,I couldn't help but notice all the incest going on amongst the Gods. Also, Aphrodite called Philommedes because she loves dick. Some other interesting stuff that I noted was Cerberus portrayed as fifty-headed ,different from the three-headed dog that popular culture portrays him as. Olympus was called Snowy at one part, but I remember Hamilton saying that there was no snow on Olympus during the chapter about Demeter. This is probably meant to refer to the actual peak of Olympus as snowy, however, I always thought that the Greeks believed the Gods are not actually at the peak itself, but that the peak was a gateway towards the divine land of Olympus.

Thanks OP

Pop Quiz Part 1 for Day Seven

What does Theogony mean?

What goddesses inspire Hseiod at the beginning of the Theogony?

What was the first god or personified abstraction to exist?

Who was Ouranos' (Uranus') mother? His wife?

Who overthrew Ouranos, and why?

Who were Zeus' siblings? How did he evade their childhood fate, and who helped him?

Who gave Zeus his thunderbolts?

What two sides fought the Titanomachy, and who won?

Hey guys !
any of u know a comfy PDF reader ?

>>9035236
Foxit, Adobe, or Sumatra for PC.

Moon+ for Android.

KYS for iOS.

>>9035248
>Anonymous
Thanks mate
whats the diffrance between pdf and epub ?

>>9035268
PDF files have static layouts, like so much text appears on each page. This type is best for textbooks with charts, pictures, etc, and legal documents.

EPUBs are flowable, which makes it easier to read because the text can be bigger, works better on devices, and is more configurable.

EPUB > PDF for reading

Anyone interested in Starting with the Greek Language group?
I suggest having anons group together and study the language through literature, particulary by translating ancients texts, like New Testament, blind, passage by passage, and then sharing their results in the end of the week.
I'm self-studying latin already, but never touched greek in my life, if somebody organizes anything like it, I'll join

>>9035138
>What does Theogony mean?
Creation of the gods.
>What goddesses inspire Hseiod at the beginning of the Theogony?

The muses.
>What was the first god or personified abstraction to exist?
Chaos.
>Who was Ouranos' (Uranus') mother?
His wife.
>His wife?
His mother.
>Who overthrew Ouranos, and why?
His son, Kronos.

>Who were Zeus' siblings?
Hera, Poseidon, erm...i forgot the otherss.
>How did he evade their childhood fate, and who helped him?
>His mom smuggled him away to Crete where he was raised by a nymph and her goat.
>Who gave Zeus his thunderbolts?
That i don't know.
>What two sides fought the Titanomachy, and who won
The titans and the Olympian gods and the latter won.

>>9035665
>Who gave Zeus the thunderbolt ?
The Cyclopes.

>>9033662
Read Rachel Bespaloff's On the Iliad. It has similar ideas to Weil's commentary. Good read tho,

Pop Quiz for Day Seven Part 2

By what river do the gods swear oaths?

Was Prometheus helpful to man? Did he intend to be?

Prometheus represented technology for the Greeks. Are there any parallels between modern technology and Prometheus?

For what purpose does Zeus order the creation of Pandora? Is she a positive gift, or a negative one?

For what purpose was Eve created?

What similarities are there between the creation of Eve and that of Pandora? How do their purposes differ?

What happens to man when Eve eats the apple, and Pandora opens the box?

Stupid question. I don't see "Cambridge Copmanion to Ancient Mediterranean Religions" in the mega. Am I blind or is it not there?

>>9036507
Thanks for letting me know. I forgot to upload it.

The whole book is now in the folder, and the reading we will be using is in the Readings folder called "Greece from The Cambridge Companion to Ancient Mediterranean Religions.pdf"

>>9036527
Thanks!

>>9035918
>By what river do the gods swear oaths ?
Styx

>Was Prometheus helpful to man? Did he intend to be ?
Yes and yes

>Are there any parallels between modern technology and Prometheus ?

>For what purpose does Zeus order the creation of Pandora? Is she a positive gift, or a negative one?
Punishment for receiving the fire. She was described as negative by Hesiod.

The next three question make an interesting comparison between Eve and Pandora, even though the purposes of their creations are different, one was created to punish, the other, to keep company, the end result of the existence of both of them is bringing suffering to man. One through opening the box, the other through eating the apple and committing the first sin. Is this whole view of women as harbingers of evil shared by any other religions, or is it just these two ?

The comparison between modern technology and Prometheus can also result in an interesting discussion.

Iliad this week?

> dies as soon as we get to primary source material

I've read before that the first gods in the Theogony crib a bit from Near Eastern mythologies.
Is it it a novel text or is it following some kind of NE genre?

>>9033531
only a little bit more pointless than WW2

>>9036716
Prometheus gave man fire (and technology), but Zeus punished man and made their life worse. So was Prometheus's action actually helpful to man?

>>9037678
Read the picture.

>tfw chad gets to sleep with the goddesses and all you get are the evil women descended from pandora

>>9038462
lol

Reminder that the Greeks are relatively young society.

Why are ancient myths so fucking weird? Cronus cuts off his dad's dick, then throws it into the sea where it grows into a woman? What the fuck? Was Hesiod just having a big laugh, saying the most ridiculous shit just to see who would believe it?

Wait, at the beginning of the universe there were clearly genders already. Gaia is a woman, Uranus is a man. They fuck and have kids. And so on and so on. But if the first Golden Age race of humans was all men until Pandora, how did they reproduce? Did they just not?

>>9038495
>Was Hesiod just having a big laugh, saying the most ridiculous shit just to see who would believe it?
If you read the supplementary material, you'd know that 1) Hesiod didn't come up with it and 2) not even the Greeks came up with it.

That myth has been around since long before Hesiod's time.

>>9038518
Gaia is a female goddess, not a human woman. It's not clear to me if the humans prior to Pandora reproduced, or needed to reproduce.

>>9038495
The early sections of the Theogony are similar to the Mesopotamian myth of Tiamat. The Enuma Elis, a written source for the myth, dates from 18th Century BC. The myths were probably spread even earlier than that.

>>9038536
Obviously I know Hesiod didn't come up with it, he just wrote it down and yes I read that it was probably derived from Hittite myths but my point still stands that ancient people were weird as fuck.

>>9038553
They are very strange. They also evolved in strange times. I don't know the origins of those myths, or why they would tell the story as they do.

You made it seem like you thought Hesiod came up with it.

>tfw no slender-ankled pretty-ankled gf

>>9038536
But it says women were specifically created to be evil and a punishment for men, so is it the same deal for women goddesses?

>>9038582
It's not clearly delineated as such, but you could certainly make arguments for or against it. The first was Chaos, but Gaia also came quite early and she is seen as a good Goddess. So the first female goddess is not a burden to humans, though many others are.

>tfw you're already familiar with most of the material from watching Hercules: The Legendary Journeys

DAY EIGHT

Readings
>Hesiod, Works and Days. ACM pp. 160-7
>Semonides, Women. ACM pp. 387-90
>Greece reading in the Readings folder

>>9035766
Will do, thanks anon!

Pop Quiz for Day 8

>Who warned Epimetheus not to accept Pandora?

>What was life like before Pandora (lines 111-114)? After?

>What sort of person is Pandora?

>What sort of life does Hesiod recommend living?

>What are the Five Ages of Man according to Hesiod? Which are just, and which are hubristic?

>What does Hesiod think of his generation?

>In the Iron Age, Shame and Nemesis go to Olympus (line 230-4). Why would this be bad for humanity?

>What are the two types of Strife, and which does Hesiod say is good?

>Later Greeks and Romans preserved Works and Days and taught it as a foundation text, like learning from the Bible. What about the text would seem important to them?

bump

>Later Greeks and Romans preserved Works and Days and taught it as a foundation text, like learning from the Bible. What about the text would seem important to them?

It gives an important moral dimension to work, a thing that surprised and interested me a lot. It could also be important because it explains the birth of humanity, seen as a decline (reminded me to Genesis, in a way).

>>9034848
well mostly greek is oral tradition. so they needed inspo from muses to remember. also hymns for ex.
and stop reading with modern morals please

>>9039314
>Later Greeks and Romans preserved Works and Days and taught it as a foundation text, like learning from the Bible. What about the text would seem important to them?
The instructions on how and where to piss, obviously.

>tfw no bee gf

I am surprised a lot of the moral values of Hesiod still hold up today. Semonides, was also quite good with his advice on how you have to find a good and faithful wife is also something that one can relate to in any day or age. I found it interesting how the Greeks adopted the weighing of the hearts from the Egyptians, which provides an interesting point on how religions were adopted from one group of people to another and how the gods of the later evolved in relation to what practices they had adopted. It was also mentioned that Apollo and Dionysus were used as iconographic and conceptual models for understanding Christ, what exactly is this supposed to mean ?

>excellently planned out Greek reading group
>miss the start by a week
J U S T

Need help guys.

In the Iliad, what does the king mean by "prizes"? Their women?

>>9041206
Just catch up, or read the mythology later.

>>9041297
Probably. Give the context please

>>9041206
The pace is okay. I assumed I was far behind and apparently I'm only behind by a day. And I did all the optional readings.

The introduction to the Theogony I think pointed out that it directly continues with the Catalogue of Women, which describes women consorts of gods and their demigod children, kinda populating the mortal world after the immortal world in the Theogony. In a like way that's followed by the Shield of Heracles and that by the Wedding of Ceux, which are some mythological episodes, and that perhaps by the Megalai Eoiai and that by the Melampodia, which are supposed to be broader genealogical pieces.
It wouldn't surprise me if most of those are genre pieces that got falsely attributed to Hesiod and then joined with his authentic work with spurious editions, but the fact that folks did that is interesting to me. Like the Epic Cycle that canvases the whole Trojan War and the returnees. It's a totalizing project which I hadn't really thought of the Greeks as being inclined to before I learned about this.

> And then Zeus will destroy this generation too,
> Soon as they start being born gray around the temples.
> Then fathers won't get along with their kids anymore,
> Nor guests with hosts, nor partner with partner
> And brothers won't be friends, the way they used to be.

> And brothers won't be friends, the way they used to be.

> And brothers won't be friends, the way they used to be.

poor guy

Oh, there's a footnote in the Works and Days selection that was really interesting.

The text is regarding the bronze generation of man, "They didn't eat any food at all." and the note reads "The Greek word means specifically food made from grain. The point is that the people of the Bronze Age do not practice agriculture." The Greek is "οὐδέ τι σῖτον/ἤσθιον"

It seems like an extraordinary reach. Would pre-modern folks have actually had a concept of social development like that? Did the archaic Greeks interact with any non-agriculturalists?

>>9042005
> Would pre-modern folks have actually had a concept of social development like that?
Come to think of it that's a retarded question. Putting Hesiod's genealogy of man aside, tons of agricultural societies including the Greeks and Romans have deified inventors of agriculture. It's either a pretty natural thought or it's within memory.

>>9033331
>Archon
Politicians?

>Oikist
No idea desu

>Thetes
Proletariat citizens?

>Agora
A marketplace?

>Symposium
Gathering?

How did I do

>>9042161
so-so. I think you got Archon correct. From memory, oikist refers to family and/or the family's living space/property, Thetes refers to hired hand -- basically indentured servant/serf, Agora refers to a public space usually situated in the center of the polis, and symposium is a drinking party.

oikos is house, household, etc.
oikist is the founder of a colony, first one to set up a homestead basically

Why should I read all this shit when I can just read a footnote that describes the reference the author was making?

Why do these idiots keep stopping to try and take the armor off the people they kill in the middle of a battle? The number of dumbasses who have gotten themselves speared because they immediately kneel down and try to strip dead people of their armor is absurd

>>9042460
Because the armor costs a lot of money and if you have more armors you look like a badass.

So why are these myths so misogynistic and problematic? Were the ancient storytellers just a bunch of shitlords or is /r9k/ 100% right?

>>9042571
Women knew their place back in those days.

>Soon as they start being born gray around the temples. Then fathers won’t get along with their kids anymore, Nor guests with hosts, nor partner with partner, And brothers won’t be friends, the way they used to be. Nobody’ll honor their parents when they get old, But they’ll curse them and give them a hard time, Godless rascals, and never think about paying them back For all the trouble it was to raise them. They’ll start taking justice into their own hands, Sacking each other’s cities, no respect at all For the man who keeps his oaths, the good man, The just man. No, they’ll keep all their praise For the wrongdoer, the man who is violence incarnate, And shame and justice will lie in their hands. Some good-for-nothing will hurt a decent man, Slander him, and swear an oath on top of it. Envy will be everybody’s constant companion, With her foul mouth and hateful face, relishing evil.

Is Hesiod describing modern society?

>>9040637
bee = unicorn

Where's the Cambridge Companion book? It wasn't in the downloads.

>>9042351
Why live life when you can just kill yourself?

>>9042627
Check again. It's there, comrade.

>>9042644
I've got
A Brief History of Ancient Greece - Sarah B. Pomeroy
Anthology of Classical Myth
Edith Hamilton; Steele Savage Mythology
Handbook of Classical Mythology - William Hansen
The Iliad - Homer (tr. Robert Fagles)
Lamberton, Interpretation, Allegory, and the Critics of Homer
Muses - From Handbook of Classical Mythology
The Society of the Gods - from Jean-Pierre Vernant Myth and Society in Ancient Greece
What is a Greek Myth - from Interpretations of Greek Mythology (1989) - Jan Bremmer

>>9042669
https://mega.nz/#F!tRdWHJYY!_3uUYqfzqIpRpVN2l8XNVw

strange. I'm looking at all the documents right now and it's definitely there

>>9042733
>date created 1/29
I download it before then

>>9041297
Prizes were objects of value or people taken from an opponent slayed in battle. It could be his armor, weapons or horses if he was killed on the battlefield or it could be things like precious metal drinking cups or mixing bowls or people, if they were obtained as a result of sacking a city or a dwelling place. The people could be the loser's slaves or others who hadn't been slaves before but who definitely found themselves in that position now: his wife, sons and daughters. Chryseis, mentioned in the beginning of book 1 is an example of the latter. Prizes were taken for oneself but they could also be awarded by the gathering of aristocratic warlords after the battle, usually to their king (I'm not sure if to others too, as a recognition of their special merit?). You may think of these prizes as "loot", except that word carries in English connotations of thievery and foul play, while the Greeks certainly did not see things that way: prizes were not only won fair and square, they were a consequence of, and brought further glory to their owner.

>>9041940
Where can I find those other pieces you mention? I only have The Shield of Heracles as an appendix to my edition of Hesiod.
>Catalogue of Women
That sounds convenient. Were the Greeks able to order from such catalogues? :^)

>>9042077
Exactly. They did not have to meet any in the flesh to imagine an age before grain. As for Hesiod's "bronze age", it is not the same as what modern historians call the Bronze Age.

>>9042460
Your lack of understanding for the mindset of people other than those of your day and age is tragicomic.

>>9042584
>Is Hesiod describing modern society?
Have things ever been otherwise? is what you mean to ask.

>>9042827
If you haven't already, you may want to download the (not entirely complete) collection of loeb classical library pdfs floating around some public torrent trackers. I have a collection of 400+ (out of 500ish), but it's 26GB and so I can't post a direct download link.

If anyone ever needs specific greek texts, especially those only offered by loeb, just ask in the Greek thread and I'll throw them on mega or something. Otherwise OP seems to be doing a good job of maintaining a library of source material for you guys.

Reading the greeks is like fucking primordial man

>>9042584
People have been complaining about the corruptions of the next generation and the decay of society in every society for thousands of years. It is relevant to our time because it is relevant to all times.

Today readings were wonderful

DAY NINE

Readings
>Cleanthes, Hymn to Zeus. ACM pp. 84-5
>The Lord's Prayer
>Cornutus, Hymns to Athena and Dionysus. pp. 89-91
>Diodorus of Sicily, Origin of Gods. pp. 96-101
>Fulgentius, Story of Dionysus. pp. 112-3
>Homeric Hymn to Demeter. pp. 167-78

Please tell me you don't need to keep track of all the names in the book 2 of the Iliad.

>>9043747
You don't

Bonus Reading

>Absent Deity
http://docdro.id/7McywNF

>>9033089
aurelius talking about his father "And I observed that he
had overcome all passion for boys"
What did he mean by this?

>>9043747
Ha, that's what I was thinking when I first read that.

I don't think it's that important. Homer just liked to be very verbose I think

Is Ajax of any importance?

I know he is mentioned throughout the Iliad, but I don't remember him being part of a major role. Yet I think Socrates mentions him in The Apology

>>9044223
He was fucked over by Odysseus after the events of the Iliad.

Making a comparison between the two interpretations of the myth of Dionysus by a Stoic and by a Christian author provides a good example on how people can interpret the same story in different ways depending on the moral values and ethics of their current time, it is valid for almost any literary work, if you are looking for something hard enough you are going to find, which is why you must be extremely careful when creating an opinion on what a work is supposed to represent as to not apply any of your subjective values on the topic.

The idea presented by Diodorus is also quite fascinating and I believe also applicable to what I'm talking about above. In general, I really enjoyed the readings for today, probably the best day so far.

bump

>>9044228
He fucked himself over, fool.

>>9042631
No thanks, I just don't want to waste my time on ancient literature. All the major Greek stories have already made their way into pop culture, movies, TV etc. We already pretty much know everything we need to know from the Greeks through that alone.

Reading "The Republic" by Plato at the moment. It's surprisingly easy to read and understand. Very comfy.

>>9045024
Joke's on you. The books are really entertaining.

>>9044932
Ajax deserved Achilles armor as he was the better fighter in the war (driving hektor from the ship's with a giant rock).
Odysseus and Athena unfairly convinced the council to give it to Odysseus.

bump

>>9045041
If you haven't read other dialogues already, you're missing "Republic" on levels you don't even know exist.

>>9045984
I read that Republic was a culmination of all of them, like the center piece. The essential.

>>9042854
I dunno, I think in any age not stopping to try and loot people in the middle of a battle is a dumb idea but maybe I'm just that much smarter than people back then, who knows.

>>9042854
I dunno, I think in any age stopping to try and loot people in the middle of a battle is a dumb idea but maybe I'm just that much smarter than people back then, who knows.

>>9046050
Then why would you read it first? Even if that were true, and it's debatable, it would imply you should save it for last. Apology is the only way to start reading Plato, and the Meno at the very least is required reading before Republic.

>>9046050
I mean yeah, it is in a sense; if you read nothing else of Plato ever, it should be Republic. But you won't "get it" as you would if you had some practice.

You wouldn't watch only the climax of a movie, would you? It wouldn't make sense without introducing the themes, characters, styles, etc. The same (loosely) holds for Republic, which builds on and draws from a lot of earlier dialogues; those earlier dialogues each emphasize different problems which are grappled en masse in Republic.

>>9034318
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Why should I start with the Greeks if they're boring and old?

>>9046269
Why should women have sex with you if you have a small dick?

>>9046285
My dick is not small, friend

Where can I find The Lord's Prayer?

Are there any Greek tragedies that deal with or have as a main theme the concept of silence or the ineffable?

Oedipus Tyrannus comes to mind, since his crime (incest and fratricide) were taboo and only at the end are they mentioned, when his downfall is inevitable. But are there other examples?

Today's readings were interesting, I'm just too dumb to come up with anything to say about them.

>>9046379
All I could think of is the ending of Medea

>>9046379
>the concept of silence or the ineffable
What do you mean by that? How is silence the same thing as the ineffable? And how are those related to Oedipus?

>>9046069
>who knows
Oh, I know.

>>9046269
where else would you start?

DAY TEN

Readings
>Homeric Hymns to Apollo, Hermes, Aphrodite, Dionysus, and Ares. ACM 178-204
>Sappho, Prayer to Aphrodite. ACM 385-6

Pictured: Apollo and a muse. Apollo holds a laurel branch and the Muse holds a lyre.

The reading for today was just the primary sources on what we've read so far, so I really don't have much to say.

>>9033348
I haven't finished it but I think the action meant to take a back seat to the emotions the characters are feeling anon. All you need is a few descriptions of what's happening and your mind is able to fill in the rest. But the characters still need to be saying and doing things to drive the narrative.

Too be fair, I don't understand the significance of their emotions being manipulated by Gods at key moments. Did the Greeks think that secretly everyone understood the rational thing to do but were possessed at key moments?

And why do they seem to hate war but glorify the efforts committed by the heroes off screen? I guess that's part of human nature.

>>9033643
>we aren't feeling the affects of WW1 & WW2

I'm Greek, and I have no idea how you guys can stand to read our old shit. I was forced to do them throughout middle and high school and I was bored out of my wits.

>>9047484
We're not reading translated poetry. It's prose.

I didn't read when I was in night school either

>>9047484
The mythologies are the reason I became a reader back in the day

>>9047484
And this is why your nation today is a pale shadow of its past, φίλε.

>>9047484
>>9047563
Your plebbiness aside though, this might be just another illustration of the Great Gatsby effect (or Catcher in the Rye, TKAM): you get an adverse reaction to whatever they pummelled you over the head with in school, regardless of quality. The difference here is that, while The Great Gatsby is not nearly as bad as jaded ex-highschooler Americans make it to be, it may not be a perennial classic. On the other hand, your (the Greek) classics are really, and I mean really worth anybody's time.

>>9047587
I am very glad I didn't have to read Great Gatsby in high school then. Having read it first years later, it is one of my favorite novels.

>>9035138
>What does Theogony mean?
The origins/genealogy of a system of gods
>What goddesses inspire Hesiod at the beginning of the Theogony?
The Muses
>What was the first god or personified abstraction to exist?
Gaia(Chaos was first, but I don't really know what to consider it as)
>Who was Ouranos' (Uranus') mother? His wife?
Gaia for both
>Who overthrew Ouranos, and why?
Gaia and her son Kronos because Ouranos essentially stuffed all of the children they had togeather back up in her due to his hatred of them and so Gaia asked her children to help her overthrow Ouranos. Only Kronos agreed, and Gaia gave him a sickle. So the next time Ouranos came to shag her Kronos, from inside Gaia, sliced off Ouranos' genitals with said sickle.
>Who were Zeus' siblings? How did he evade their childhood fate, and who helped him?
Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Hades, and Poseidon were Zeus' siblings. He evaded being eaten by his father because Rhea gave Kronos a swaddled rock instead of baby Zeus and sent her uneaten son away to Lyktos in a cave in Mount Aigaion. Gaia helped Rhea with her plan.
>Who gave Zeus his thunderbolts?
The Kyklopes.
>What two sides fought the Titanomachy, and who won?
I'm not sure, maybe Zeus and his siblings by Kronos v. titans, and Zeus et al. won?

Thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOvVWiDsPWQ

>Bremmer, "What is a Greek myth ?"
Where can I find this ?

>>9047875
It's in the readings folder.

>>9047644
That's what I'm talking about. And I'm glad I didn't have to read Homer--well, I did attempt to read him, age 14, got about halfway through, skimmed the rest and walked away absolutely unimpressed. I'm glad I wasn't made to read him through and disect him back then, especially in that dusty old translation in my native language, as I probably would have come up with the same kinds of questions and comments as I always see in these threads: Pff, why did they fight over a woman? Why didn't the stupid Trojans just hand her over and promptly make peace? Pff, why did they stoop to gather the dead guys' armor? Pff, why did they fight over those dead bodies like carrion dogs? Why was Achilles such a whiny baby? What's with all the names in book 2? Thersites did nothing wrong, etc.

I think Homer should definitely be attempted during one's teens but with the knowledge that he won't be entirely understood (not that I'm certain I "entirely" understand him now) and probably not much appreciated. Then, regardless of one's original opinion, he should be (re)read in one's thirties, then reread on and on as one ages.

Anyone have any downloads for socrates's shit? Honestly can't find anything online

>>9047587
This. High school english completely turned me off from reading until I picked up a copy of Beowulf years later.

>>9048356
same

>>9048488
>>9047587
non american here. It's something that I've heard about a couple of times now
Just how bad are your literacy classes?

>>9048497
"Okay friends today we're going to read one page from The Great Gatsby! Everyone is going to read one sentence." The average american unironically can't even pronounce most words above 3 syllables.

My uni is a STEMfag one so the English classes here are just writing (bullshitting) papers with no reading at all.

>>9048490
>>9048356
Socrates never wrote.

Look for Plato Complete Works by Cooper on libgen.

>>9048356

>>9048521
jesus, is it that bad in the whole country
I've heard stories about teachers there being the scum of earth, but man

Where can I read about Ajax's fate after The Iliad?

>>9049067
I can't speak for the entire country but I never read a book cover to cover before I started reading on my own.
>>9049184
The play Ajax by Sophocles is what you're looking for.

>>9049213
Thanks! Do I read the play before or after The Odyssey?

Was there any reason for the non-linear reading of ACM?

After Hesiod I just read all the following Homeric Hymns.

>>9045024
>No thanks, I just don't want to waste my time on ancient literature. All the major Greek stories have already made their way into pop culture, movies, TV etc. We already pretty much know everything we need to know from the Greeks through that alone.
Even if popular culture HAD incorporated the philosophy of the Greeks (which they haven't, because those philosophers were noblemen in a noble culture, and their harsh truths wouldn't be financially viable enough to bother conveying in a less aristocratic culture), writing still remains the most efficient way of communicating knowledge.

>>9049273
Doesn't really matter, the Odyssey is years after the war is over and is separate from the other stories. The Iliad is a must of course.

Bonus Reading for Day 10

>Tithonus by Sir Alfred Tennyson
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tithonus_(Tennyson)

Where can I read about Achilles' death?

After I read the Iliad and the Odyssey I want to jump straight to Plato. Which book should I pick 1st?

Dialogues?

boop

>>9046315
Here:
>Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy work be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power and the glory, forever and ever. Amen.

What does Fagles mean by "ashen spear"?

>>9049975
A spear made from ash wood.

>>9033348
The Iliad blows and shouldn't be read straight through except by masochists. There are sections worth reading, but it's way too repetitive. I read parts of it in a college Greek class and got fucking sick of the phrase "podus hocus Achilleus" (swift footed Achilles). The poem's design is such that only a chapter or two should be read at a time and it has way too many repetitive phrases that are used to fit the dactylic hexameter and Homeric couplets structural motifs.

>>9049985
Thanks. It's strange how English doesn't have a specific name for each plant.

FUCK ANCHISES
WHY THE FUCK DOES THIS ASSHOLE GET TO FUCK A LITERAL GODDESS
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>9050002
The edition I just read had an 80-page introduction explaining this among other things. Do they really not teach it at college?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral-formulaic_composition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithets_in_Homer

>>9050097
Wait, it was bait wasn't it?

Tangential things: Zeus Teleios and Hera Teleia are interesting epithets that came up in yesterday's reading.
I was really amused to see that the use of euphemisms to avoid Hades' names didn't go unnoticed by the Greeks, and he was given the epithet 'He of Many Names'

Are there any good recitation recordings? The original Greek or any other language. I have one by Stephen G. Daitz. His reading style is pretty grating unfortunately, although I definitely wouldn't question his credentials for making a historically-informed performance.

Oh, I also have a short selection from the Odyssey by Philomen Probert. It's okay.

>>9049596

The four dialogues about the death of Socrates. Then Republic and Symposium.

I say it again.

After Homer, we should do the Athenian playwrights.

Wait, you're already ten days in? I thought you started this month like the Don Quixote group. If I just finished the Iliad yesterday would I have time to catch up?

>>9051359
Well apparently everything except Homer and the history textbook is optional, so you could just read the 3 Pomeroy chapters (not long) over the two days and you'd be ready for the Iliad starting.

There might be a catch-up period too apparently. I'm on Day 9-10 myself.

>>9051257
This

Very excited to start the Iliad. Also, Palaephatus was fucking amazing with his retarded explanations and conclusions such as I believe there is no way a ram will swim faster than a ship.

DAY ELEVEN

Readings:
>Short Homeric Hymns ACM 204-10
>Bremmer, “What is a Greek Myth?”
>Palaephatus, Unbelievable Things ACM 329-339
>Lucian, The Wedding of Peleus and Thetis ACM 285
>Mythology, “Trojan War Prologue: Judgement of Paris” Ham 255-6

The next two days are going to be to catch-up and to read Five Monolithic Theories by G.S. Kirk, just added to the Readings folder. It is 31 pages long so will require an extra day for reading.

Pictured: The Judgment of Paris by Peter Paul Rubens c. 1597

Will Simone Weil's essay be read eventually?

>>9051520
Yes, among other essays/commentary.

>Want to into Nietzsche and Stirner
>Have to read 20+ greek books
They're fun though so I shouldn't be complaining.

>>9052048
You have your whole life. And you won't pass on the opportunity to read them all.

I know I won't.

>>9051257
Agreed.

Don't go straight from Homer to Plato, he references the plays.

>>9052048
Only Nietzsche knew the Greeks.

Stirner was just a girl's school teacher.

>>9051257
I'm not part of this group but I'd join for this (and plato but it'll be a while before you guys are on him)

Holy shit I love the big three tragedians. Literally the pinnacle of theatre.

>ywn witness an actual ancient greek tragedy in 5th century athens
breaks my heart a little lads

>>9051446
>two catchup days
Neat. So the only mandatory reading I have to cover in those two days is the first three chapter's of brief history, then I can just fit in as much ACM stuff as I like, correct?

>>9052606
Sure. Be sure to read the last two readings for Day 11 too, The Wedding and the Judgment of Paris.

I recommend Hesiod's two works if you have time. Start with those from ACM.

>>9052634
I will give it my best my man.

>>9039314
>What sort of person is Pandora?
Stacey

Idk the rest I read Works and Days like a million years ago I should reread that shit

I hate Alexander.

>>9033089
daily reminder you should only read edith hamilton's mythology if you are just a normie and dont want to exhaust yourself with all this dry garbage

>>9033089
I would like to start with the Greeks though i am unsure if the book i found contains the full stories
is any german speaking person who saw this version here?

http://www.buecher.de/shop/griechenland/griechische-und-germanische-goetter-und-heldensagen/tetzner-reiner-wittmeyer-uwe/products_products/detail/prod_id/42743368/

i looked up the segments that are mentioned there and it seems that it goes through the complete Iliad
what makes me suspicious is that they get the Iliad done in 41 pages unlike with the normal version which has over 600 pages

>>9054104
Can't say anything about this book, but I've got Schwabs "Sagen des klassischen Altertums" which doesn't cover the creation and generations of gods but otherwise gives a good pictures of the myths. It also contains a chapter about the Iliad and the odyssee, though be aware that those aren't the original texts - like any other myth in it. It's rather a retelling of the events that took place.

>>9054184
thanks gonna get myself the full on too then

>>9033089
>https://mega.nz/#F!tRdWHJYY!_3uUYqfzqIpRpVN2l8XNVw

So philosophers is going to be part two of this or what's the road map?

What is the difference between category of being and class of being?

>>9038491
Yes but we have their texts. All we have apart from that is Gilgamesh. Not saying this isn't absolutely mandatory to read, and everybody should do so, but there really isn't a lot of stuff from ancient Egypt to read through, to my knowledge

Catch-up day today / today's reading is Five Monolithic Theories by G.S. Kirk in the Readings folder.

bump

Need help.

Are there 2 characters named Ajax in the Iliad? Or is he referring to only one when he says "the great and little"?

>>9056741
there are two

am i on track

Not following your schedule but should I skip the introduction of the iliad for now?

>Another lim-
itation of our written sources is that, with very few exceptions, they are all produced
by a privileged group: urban males, mostly from the upper class. In order to illu-
minate the lives of women, the very poor, and slaves, who do not generally speak
for themselves, historians employ a variety of strategies, often drawing upon femi-
nism, Marxism, cultural studies, and other interdisciplinary approaches.

>>9060123
I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

On the other hand, Pomeroy is primarily a cultural history, and we are interested in the Greeks' culture because of that privileged group (to an extent privilege and culture are synonymous). So I don't know why she felt the need to point out the absence of female, poor, and slave experiences. There's endless other experiences omitted too: pets, foreigners, nature, etc. Is it a concession to political climate?

>>9060209
> Is it a concession to political climate?
Whether or not the author genuinely believes in such theories or is just paying lip service it's impossible to say, but it's a well written book so I guess I'll just relax my autism and get on with it.

This whole project is utterly pointless and retarded for having an imperative of performance as it's foundation. This could be a discussion group, instead it's a very tightly scheduled performance group. Just how retarded can you be to demand people to read 30 pages of the iliad per day? What is this? A Uni-assignment? Maybe we should also provide some notes, so that people know what they should think about what they are reading.

Pseuds.

>>9060284
>calls people pseuds
>can't read 30 pages a day
lmao

>>9060284
>imperative of performance

I think this is the most autistic general on any 4chan board.

>>9060351
it's a fucking dead general is what it is

Catch-up day today / today's reading is Five Monolithic Theories by G.S. Kirk in the Readings folder. Same as yesterday.

If you are jumping in with us to read the Iliad, I recommend you read
>Lucian, The Wedding of Peleus and Thetis
>Mythology, "Trojan War Prologue: Judgment of PAris"
before we begin tomorrow. It's only 3 pages of reading.

>>9060284
I think of it more as an excuse to read some stuff you should have already read.

Anyway, 30 pages a day is hardly uni workload.

>First, it is impossible for one animal to make love to another if the female does not have a vagina that matches the male’s genitals. It is not possible for a dog and a monkey or a wolf and a hyena to mate with each other. Even an antelope cannot mate with a deer, for they are of different species. Even if they did mate with each other, it is not possible for them to produce young. I do not think a bull had intercourse with a wooden cow in the first place, for all four-legged animals smell the genitals of the animal before mating with it and only then mount it. And the woman could not have endured a bull mounting her. A woman could also not carry a fetus with horns.

Was it autism?

DAY TWELVE

The Iliad begins!

>Strawpoll (take pls)
http://www.strawpoll.me/12273893

Readings
>Iliad, Spelling and Pronunciation of Homeric Names pp. 65-67
>Iliad, Book 1-2. pp. 77-103

Again, if you are just joining us for the Iliad, the following 3 pages are recommended reading:
>Lucian, The Wedding of Peleus and Thetis
>Mythology, "Trojan War Prologue: Judgment of Paris"

>>9062720
Yes, all of his ramblings are autistic

>for anything that has ever come into existence at any time both exists now and will exist in the future
Palaephatus recognises the eternal recurrence?

bump

>>9046285
i don't pursue women for this reason

I've stayed behind lately because of a fever, but I'm now catching up and will resume on Iliad as soon as I can.

>>9064885
>>9063957
Also, when I read him, it seemed to me just the mere statement that things that couldn't happen presently, necessarily couldn't have happened in the past. Just a refusal of mythological foundations to me, not a higher metaphysical or historical statement.

>>9064897
Yeah I agree, just I wasn't reading it closely enough at first.

>>9062720
Yes. All he had to do was to speak of chromosomes and genes. No amount of anatomical compatibility between the genitalia can overcome the genetic obstacles that prevent inter-genus hybridization.

>I do not think a bull had intercourse with a wooden cow in the first place, for all four-legged animals smell the genitals of the animal before mating with it and only then mount it
Clearly this guy musn't be too familiar with semen collection and artificial insemination in livestock. Not that I'm saying ye olden Greeks were, mind you.

>A woman could also not carry a fetus with horns.
Neither does a cow. Horns will grow later on on calves.

>>9064922
That was a good observation, though desu

Any other recommendations for greek history? I prefer reading actual books instead of PDFs, so I searched my local library for Pomeroy's history, but they don't have a copy of it ;-;

>>9038637
>not watching the entire series of Disney's Hercules: The Animated Series to become a scholar of the entire time period of Greek civilization

is lesFag the easiest to read?

the spelling and pronounciation chapter makes Lattimore seem too hard to guess/remember even if his translation is more strict. Fagles is more intuitive?

Should I be reading with a certain tempo/rhythm in mind? Or emphasise certain words, pause at certain places etc? I'm currently reading Fagles translation of the Iliad.

Am I a pleb for thinking the Iliad is pretty dry?

I already read Lattimore's Homer but I'll read along with this Fagles group.

I'll switch between those two and also Chapman, Green, Lombardo, and Pope. To get a feel for them all this time.

>>9066786
Dryness is a comment on style right? You can get a wide variety of translations, some more technical and accurate, some more poetic and flowery. Have you tried Pope, Chapman, or Fitzgerald?

>>9066821
>Have you tried Pope, Chapman, or Fitzgerald
No, the download didn't come with that. It's just dry and kind of boring. Not the story itself, I'm fine with reading a synopsis, but reading the whole text just kind of feels like a chore. Honestly some of the original mythology (like all the hymns and the Theogony) felt kind of the same way.

>>9038637
I got away with writing a 12 page mythology paper based on shit I remembered from Disney's Hercules movie.

>10 PM
>Midterm mythology paper due the next morning
>I hadn't read shit for the class, because I found it all so boring. To this day I've got no clue how anyone can get through Ovid's Metamorphasis.
>I couldn't pay any attention to those boring ass
>Crushed and snorted two tablets of dextroamphetamine
>Pounded a Red Bull
>Started pounding out my paper like a savage
>Took a break at some point to snort more dexedrine
>Hit 12 pages without any margin, spacing, or font size tricks
>Put together a bunch of references to shit I had not read
>30 page paper on illegitimate wives of Catholic priests in early modern Europe due the next morning
>All research was done and I had written a fairly detailed outline complete with references and assembled a bibliography, but I hadn't written the paper yet
>Decided to just keep pounding away and get that paper done too so I didn't lose momentum
>Spent the entire day snorting dexedrine and pounding energy drinks and writing the paper
>Wrapped up the paper at midnight
>Roommate joked that my heart was going to explode from using so many stimulants
>Realized heart was pounding so hard and so fast that I couldn't count the number of beats
>Roommate drove me to the hospital

I never touched a stimulant again. My mythology paper received a B+, my history paper received an A.

>>9066840
Nice. I once wrote an essay for a contest on an Edward Dickens novel I didn't read and won second place and $50.

>>9066840
I should add that while the history paper was actually good (largely because I wrote extremely detailed outlines for papers I took seriously as a student), the mythology paper was just awful and bordered on incomprehensible. Thank god some terrible adjunct never taught before in her life and scared of her students professor was teaching it.

>>9046850
Kierkegaard

bump

>>9033089
Is the caption in pic related grammatically correct guys? English majors?

OK after extensive comparison, here's the tier list in case this dilemma is preventing anyone from getting ahead:

>#1
Lattimore
>#2
Chapman
>#3
Pope
>#4
Green
>#5
Fagles
>#6
Lombardo

>>9066821
Makes me wonder why with the availability of ebooks, and the official MEGA folder for this, why we aren't switching translations between books.

That should be considered for the Odyssey. We should at least include Ezra Pound's version.

>>9066832
You can get Pope or Chapman for free on Gutenberg, they are public domain.
>Pope
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/6130
>Chapman
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/51355

>>9068069
Especially since everyone will have different English stylistic preferences yet all come here to read Homer.

DAY THIRTEEN

>Strawpoll (same one as before. please take if you haven't)
http://www.strawpoll.me/12273893

Readings
>Iliad, Book 2-3. pp. 104-33

>Why Fagles?
The previous OP said that the current OP is personally affiliated with Fagles and/or his publisher. That's why that translator was chosen.

>tfw I went to university for this

laughing hard at the uneducated plebs ITT. What's it like knowing that you will NEVER have seminars with world renown scholars of this period?

>>9065284
>Any other recommendations for greek history?
Here's the free Yale course by prof. Donald Kagan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FrHGAd_yto&list=PL023BCE5134243987

Just a warning: the titles of the videos can be misleading. There was a shift or something, and they're messed up. Cue a video being there titled 'Sparta' with lots of views (possibly because of a certain movie), and few words on that polis because the fun is actually in the following lesson...

>>9068892
For the ESL guys, the course does have English subtitles you can benefit from.

>>9068842
OP here. Personally affiliated with Fagles? These rumors are hilarious. I guess an anonymous imageboard will do that.

For the record, I am not affiliated with Fagles and/or his publisher. I don't work in literature, classics, journalism, or any academics. I work at a medical research company.

>>9068858
(You)

>>9068858
>seminars
Bait. Real intellectuals will always choose writing, all other forms of communication (including, by the way, direct discussion) are for peasants.

>>9068913
Which of the Life Sciences did you study?

>>9068981
My degree is in bio-engineering.

Any essays on homeric epics other than Weil's?

>>9069008
related song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHpNoNgWNU8

>>9069045
Pope's intro to his translation of the Iliad, the Cambridge Companion to Homer, Pharr's intro to his Homeric Greek grammar, etc

Is Pope the best aesthetically?

Is it fine to listen to the audiobook while reading?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgB9vxYT9kw

>>9069187
That's the Odyssey.

I'm greek and I'm wondering, are you guys who are not familiar with the greek language reading mythology for the story, to get an introduction for the gods and heroes so you can follow non-mythology works, or what?
Assuming its neither of that, are you aware of the higher abstract approach to the mythology? Not as "he spit and some guy was created haha xd" but in the meaning behind the scenarios and the words(emphasis here). Since you are not familiar with the greek language are you aware that you are missing out?
I'll give an example of that approach, the couple of Cronus and Rhea. Cronus is "time", Rhea is "flow",(fitting couple, isn't it?) they made most of the olympian gods, which tells us that gods didn't always exist, they were made as the time was flowing.
You can go crazy with things like this because we don't know everything about the ancient greek language and culture, so yeah, some people go over the top but it's definitely interesting.
Personally, I don't thing anyone is naive enough to worship fairy tales, and if they do they have their reasons.

>>9069343
Much of what you describe is termed "folk etymology", which is people coming up with reasons for why such things are named. Some of these are described in the additional readings, including the example you gave.

>Personally, I don't thing anyone is naive enough to worship fairy tales, and if they do they have their reasons.

A majority of the humans on the planet today do so.

>>9069343
Translators, commentaries and mythographers give similar information in the text, introductions or footnotes. When we're dealing with classics we're never alone.

>I don't thing anyone is naive enough to worship fairy tales
Somehow, even less valuable things get worshipped in the current year.

>>9069451
No, what I talked about is literally etymology. The side stories, yeah as I mentioned can go wild.
>A majority of the humans on the planet today do so.
Not without reasons, in my opinion.

>>9069451
There's a world of difference between fairy tales like cindarella and aesop's fables which were never intended to be true and Greek and other mythology and other monotheistic religions.

>>9069488
Here's Mazzini on Goethe:
>No, Goethe is not the poet of Pantheism; he is a polytheist in his method as an artist; the pagan poet of modern times. His world is, above all things, the world of forms: a multiplied Olympus. The Mosaic heaven and the Christian are veiled to him. Like the pagans, he parcels out Nature into fragments, and makes of each a divinity; like them, he worships the sensuous rather than the ideal; he looks, touches, and listens far more than he feels. And what care and labor are bestowed upon the plastic portion of his art! what importance is given—I will not say to the objects themselves—but to the external representation of objects! Has he not somewhere said that “the beautiful is the result of happy position?
Then there's Dante calling God "Jupiter" and filling his Inferno with mythological creatures, etc.

One way or the other, not only the ancient Greeks themselves, but even their very gods have never gone away from Western literature.

Patrician: Homeric Greek
Haute Bourgeois: Pope, Chapman
Petit Bourgeois: Lattimore, Merrill
Plebeian: Fagles
Lumpen: Lombardo

>>9050002
>>9033348
>plebs can't into homer

>>9069313
>not reading The Iliad whilst listening to The Odyssey

you know have ears as well as eyes, right?

>>9068063
>no Fitzgerald
Bloom would slap your face, pleb.

>>9069073
In terms of aesthetic, you're only allowed to talk about either Lattimore or Fitzgerald.

>pope
>chapman
>merrill
>lombardo
All wackos itt god dammit.

>>9048497
I'm Norwegian and I can assure you that the same effect is in place here. We had to read Hunger by Hamsun when I was 16-17 and I was the only one who liked it, but some of my classmates have re-discovered it and appreciated it later on in life.

>>9068063
Why is there no Robert Fitzgerald there? His translation is considered top tier by most literary experts dumbass.

>inb4 citation needed
Grow a fucking brain

Saved

Why do the Achaeans take themselves and the war so seriously when they outnumber the Trojans so greatly, in addition to being better trained, etc?

>>9074373
They take it seriously because there is only one way to regain anything even remotely able to compensate for the lost time and the dishonor

They suck at siege warfare and this farce of a war has been going on for 10 years!

>>9033089
Is there an alternative to the history of ancient greece that's not written by a woman?

>>9033348
They don't want peace. Men are attracted to strife and conflict and the chance to prove themselves.

>>9074465
>>>/r9k/

>>9074501
Serious tho.

>>9074501
Greek mythology IS /r9k/.

Will we be reading the histories eventually?

DAY FOURTEEN

Readings
>Iliad, Book 3-4. pp. 134-163

>>9074465
Both Cambridge and Blackwell have "Companion[s] to the Hellenistic World" edited by guys.

Those are popular on here.

>>9074465
Not that is used by every major university.

>>9074524
Greek Mythology is actually a geneology of the "people" who colonized Earth, you fucking pleb

>>9074856
>he didn't read the part where Pandora and by extension all women were created to specifically be a plague on all men

Pope is the only relatively decent poet who translated Homer in English.

>>9074621
The historians might be excerpted for optional readings.

But after Homer it will be the athenian dramatists, after that it's Plato.

>>9072384
Bloom prefers Lattimore for the Iliad. Fitzgerald for the Odyssey.

>That second half of book two

Absolutely fuck this shit. There is no artistic sublime here. How can anyone stand such contrived shit?

>>9076911
>How can anyone stand such contrived shit?
i wouldn't know, i read it sitting down

>>9076911
It's a catalogue to honour the allies. Poets would be able to demonstrate their memorisation skills and geographical knowledge with that.

>>9076911
Dude, it was the Greek equivalent of shouting the local town's name at the start of a concert. When Homer recited in a local cosmopolitan city, it ensured that everyone who came from all over Greece felt like they had an historical connection to the story.

Whoever decided to have this and the Don Quixote readalongs concurrently was an asshole. It totally split the board's readership

DAY FIFTEEN

Readings
>Iliad, Book 5. pp. 164-194

Catch-up day tomorrow.

>>9050002
The Iliad is beautiful and a fun/easy read, you fucking pleb. You should give up now.

>>9076911
>contrived
Care to explain this retardation?

Thinking of buying pic related by Robert Graves. I saw it recommended in a poetry thread, to get a better background from the Greek myths. Anyone else have an opinion on this one?

>>9079557
Graves' relation of the myths in prose are good, but the interpretations are questionable he's rather wrapped up in his personal meta-narrative.

>>9079557
Graves' relation of the myths in prose is very good, but his interpretations are unorthodox, he's rather wrapped up in his personal meta-narrative.

>>9046050
Sorry bro. But I think he was right there is a whole lot going on. Plato doesn't get the literary merit he deserves.

Okay so what the fuck were they doing for nine years?

>>9076911
>mfw the catalogue of ships is the ultimate pleb filter

>>9046269
They aren't boring just old. If your not interested don't click on the start with the Greeks thread. Maybe you could try tumbler or reddit. They don't have any class either

>>9048497
I'm aus and hated reading too during school except hairy twatter to fit in. I know dag. Then forced myself to read a few classics. Got stuck into a few. After finding this site through/b/ I started this brief history of Greek meme and now immerse myself in the history culture and philosophy from this period

Since we're not sticking strictly to Classical Greek sources, have you considered adding The Metamorphoses to a later reading list? It's a beautiful journey through the breadth of Greco-Latin myth if you're interested in gaining a familiarity with the characters and stories.

Was the Catalogue of the Ships a pan-Hellenic opportunity for the rhapsode to play it up to the home crowd of whatever town they were performing in? When they get to their bit, they throw in some stuff about how valiantly and manly their contingent and leaders were?

Catch-up day today.

This could be added to the optional readings next time the timetable is posted:
http://nietzsche.holtof.com/Nietzsche_various/homers_competition.htm

People should really share anything relevant, as it seems a mistake to just slog through it without any change of lens.

bump

so, have you found out yet? did we ever wuz kangz or not?

>>9083452
Not only kangz, our ancestor Agamemnon was kang of kangz.

bump

>>9033331
What the fuck is an oikist? You mean OIKOS in Greek.

>>9085300
An oikist is the founder of a colony, but yes, I think he meant oikos.

What is the plan after the Illiad?