/lit/ - Literature

>>8960309
I don't give a damn about their politics. Your politics do not define you.

>>8960309
/lit/ does not "prefer" any literature, especially not for political motivations

>>>/pol/

>>8960309
They don't. No one in real life does. The right wing/nazi/trump audience are just very vocal on this website bc they are ugly/fat/socially inept etc.

>>8960316
I frequently see conservative writers being praised on /lit/, but very few liberal writers are recognized here. Especially liberal philosophers, they are disparaged by /lit/ all the time. Why is this?

>>8960322
I tend to stay center left/right when I'm reading something for pleasure. If I want to be preached st up read the Bible

>>8960309
"liberalism can only exist when there are "no" "problems" (ironically (?) it is then the liberalism which "creates" "problems")"

>>8960331
First of all, the current form of liberalism and conservatism are vastly different now than they were in the past. The schisms have widened to levels of the extreme and liberalism and conservatism weren't wrapped up in identity politics. Stop this shit. Anyone in the center and rejecting extremist ideals of the right or left can appreciate literature of either political leaning of the past.

Cuckservatives and Progressives are one in the same and are easily triggered by any difference of opinion. They are both a scourge to us all.

I don't care what political leaning the author was, so long as they weren't a complete jack off.

>>8960347
Who are you quoting?

>>8960322
Return to your pseud containment board immediately please. /lit/ is and always has been a Christian traditionalist board w/ minor appreciation for pomo commercial fiction writers e.g. Pynchon, Gass
>>>/mu/

>>8960348
I always read the shorter parts of a post to see if the longer parts are worth reading. Boy am I glad I skipped your tripe. Political leanings bleed into their work inevitably, cretin.

>>8960354
It's interesting to see the righties clamoring about not getting a safe space after they spent god knows how long railing on the left over the same thing. Hypocrites.

>>8960331
Liberal philosophers to think women and non-whites are somehow morally equal to the white man. Right wing philosophers know better.
Most people on 4chan are redpilled and don't think much of women and minorities

>this thread

>>8960359
If you'd like to shitpost, try /pol/

>>8960354
>>8960354
This place was infested with Marxists and anarchists before the Catholic posters took over. Now it's basically /pol9k/

>>8960365
I have no idea what you're talking about; I've never supported an inclusive environment wherein the mediocre are free to discuss their mediocrity. An institution is only vital and strong if it rejects everything that is not itself.

>>8960374
You are shitposting right now. Personal belief is the foundation of all great works.

Liberalism won the cold war. It's responsible for the postmodern hell we suffer in, why would we support it?

Because you can't tell conservative and old apart

>>8960354
u can be Christian and lefty

Trump voters don't read books

>>8960412
I voted for Trump and I read books, faggot.

>>8960416
and you use the word faggot in 2017. not saying this in a politically correct way, i'm just saying no one who is funny or worthwhile in any way shares any qualities with your breed

>>8960426
This

>>8960354
>/lit/ is a christian board

Um, no. It's a board to discuss literature. Not that you would know

>>>/pol/

>>8960416
Post a picture of your bookshelf with timestamp

>>8960412
>u can be Christian and support the murder of infants, atheism, sodomy, and an economic ideology historically linked to the genocide and impoverishment of the masses
It's true that you can be a Christian and lefty, but you can't be a particularly intelligent or good Christian and lefty

I'm a Trump voter and not only am I taking my degree at a prestigious university on a scholarship but I've almost certainly read more books than you

>>8960438
>this bible is not a book

Because liberalism is an antihumanism.

Give me marxism, fascism, conservatism and islamism but please don't give me liberalism, this murderer of morals and politics.

>>8960443
>the bible must be taken literally and only in the sense which I believe and adhere to

The entire point of Christianity is to be Christ-like in your every day life. Not to preach and look down upon others. Christ didn't die for you just so that you could sin again, Christ died for you to lead by example and to show you the way.

>>8960443
Nice proof you got there

>>8960454
t. not a christian

>>8960467
Because I do not hold the same values as you? The bible was meant to be taken metaphorically not literally and it is in no way a definitive text of science or history.

>>8960470
because you misread the bible, you are saved through faith not through a poor imitiation of God

>>8960476
are you a proddie?

>>8960478
literally no sect believes you are saved by emulating God

>>8960476
Not that anon, but I shiggy diggy. You're not gonna enter heaven with that attitude

>>8960481
So faith alone is what god wants, no matter how ill you treat your fellow man, no matter how much you sin, no how big of an asshole you are, all that matters is that you have blind faith?

All of this comes from the blind leading the blind, you do realize that, right? I wonder if that is what Christ would have taught, or if that's just what the authoritative figures who used religion to rule the masses decided is what you should believe.

If you're a fucking asshole, what makes you think God is going to want to let you kick it in heaven with him?

>>8960482
t. Heretic

>>8960478
It's laughable how Catholics fumble wildly for a dumb-sounding protestant moniker, where their name is so easily lampooned. Catholick my balls.

>>8960496
>i have never read the bible, let me spout embarrassing rhetoric i learned from r/atheism

>>8960497
Nope, anon, you are the one using God's name in vain to carry out a message of hatred and contempt toward God's own creations.

You place yourself above them, simply because you have blind faith following blind teachers. The entire point of Christianity is to be Christ-like. What do you think God thinks of you over the way you think of his other children, made in his own image?

You, you are the blasphemer and the heretic.

>>8960426
IT"S CURRENT YEAR, ARE YOU KIDDING ME

>>8960498
Ah so you are a proddie

>>8960500
Not an argument. Nor am I an atheist.

>>8960504
>For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
Just go back to whatever subreddit you crawled out from.

>>8960516
>Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

>“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

>“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

See, I can post quotes too

>>8960442
I don't have to prove anything to you. I just read the Book of the New Sun though, want me to write you a fucking book report on it?

>>8960527
None of those quotes condradict what I said. You will not find any quote in the scripture that says you are saved by emulating Jesus.

>>8960481
faith without works is dead, you fucking cunt

-- jaymz

>>8960350
Nature itself was the one which thought to speak those words through me, so I was compelled to put them in scare quotes, partly because I was scared

>>8960571
works are evidence of faith, it doesn't work in the other direction my little shitposter

>>8960571
Nature is not real.

>>8960547
>You will not find any quote in the scripture that says you are saved by emulating Jesus

Except of course, the things Jesus demands of his followers.

What a lame assertion.

>>8960544
Please write us a book report sir.

>>8960309
I don't come to /lit/ to be told what to read. Anyone who does that is already a lowbrow dolt incapable of a genuine thought; a second-hand person cradling at the tit of mutated vanity.

I have my own preferences, unwarranted and uninfluenced by /lit/

>>8960316
>>8960313
>>8960322
Bitch please. You are fucking doing that all the time

>>8960426

Oxford Dictionary:
Faggot- verb
1: A bundle of sticks
2: Unutterably offensive colloquial term for homosexual
3: Jerk

He means (3) you faggot

>>8960591
There will always be a vanity driven ignoramus who spouts off their insecure cries of "preferred" literature. What is worse, is the imbecile who generalizes others into this unnecessary concocted framework.

In short, go fuck yourself.

>>8960620
>3: Jerk

Then one could say:

The faggy faggot faggotly faggoted the faggot around the burning faggot at the faggiest faggot faggoting party?

No writer in the meme trilogy is conservative, what are you talking about?

>>8960316
Why is /lit/ so resistant to /pol/? Even /lgbt/ is more /pol/ aligned than /lit/. Maybe it's because /lit/ doesn't read. Or maybe /lit/ likes the intellectual commie Jew persona. Maybe it's because they think the world works like in their leftlib-leaning books.

>every work of art necessarily fits into the uniquely American liberal/conservative dichotomy.

really made me ponder.

>>8960934
It's because /lit/ isn't retarded like /lgbt/ and /pol/. Well, isn't as retarded.

>>8960934
>Maybe it's because /lit/ doesn't read.

Bingo.

>>8960934
>Why is /lit/ so resistant to /pol/?
Why do you want us to think just like you? Does it really bother you that there are people on 4chan who hold different opinions?

>>8960879
>Then one could say: The faggy faggot faggotly faggoted the faggot around the burning faggot at the faggiest faggot faggoting party?

Are you trying to tell me you HAVEN'T been saying this?

>>8960973
Because /pol/ doesn't want to hold opinions. /pol/ wants to be right. People resisting /pol/ means that there must be some sort of flaw, a weakness of argument. Something compels /lit/ not to embrace the Imperial Truth. This is deeply unsettling.

>>8960444
>I've read lolita
>this is a pedo board

>I've read ulysses
>this is an Irish board

>I've read marx
>this is a commie board

>I've read Moby's Dick
>this is a whale hunting board

You are an absolute retard.

>>8960934
>Why is /lit/ so resistant to /pol/?
He hates it!
HATES IT

>>8960934
>using Jew as an argument


there is nothing wrong with Jewish people or Jewish writers, only to scared /pol/tards who believe in a ficitious worldwide conspiracy.

>>8960934
Because polarised black and white thinking is the product of a diseased mind. You are sick, anon, so sick you can't recognise your own symptoms from your fever dreams.

>>8960934

>I choose to get emotional over shit I read about in the news

Maybe because that sounds like the makings of a lame brain, Shane.

>>8961010
I didn't use Jew as an argument. The stereotypical Jewish commie intellectual is a viable image to be enamored with. I think many /lit/erates here think of themselves as such sort of intellectual and therefore need to reject /pol/ as part of their role in this game of masquerade.

>>8961010
jew detected

>>8961034
What is your plan to secure your children a better life? Move? Where to? There is no place to escape. Being emotionally invested would be a luxury in the current era. It goes beyond feelings of justice, moral and "what should be". DOTR soon, I hope.

>>8961038
/pol/ is nothing but wingnut theorists who see the white race as the only thing that matters. They get triggered by interracial commercials for gods sake. If being a "commie jew intellectual" is such a bad thing, I assure you the opposite is worse. As much as they hate identity politics they play themselves right into it.

>>8961038
You're delusional. Turn off the computer for a while and return to the real world.

>>8961038
>post yfw porno film about Hegel or Heidegger

>>8960309
/lit/ prefers one thing, and one thing alone: snowflakes.

Snowflakes come in two flavours. The first is to be what amounts to apolitical. To transcend the swill of the plebs and go full Socrates. Think Kierkegaard, Hegel, Stirner, Cervantes, Nietzsche, and many Greek philosophers (ironically not Plato).

The second is to have politics which are "eccentric" or "batshit insane". To have politics which seem contradictory *if you thought like a pleb*, but which have a deeper meaning guiding them. Think Montaigne's liberal conservatism, or Mishima's starry-eyed conservatism, or Borges' detached conservatism, or Hobbes' equality-driven monarchical conservatism, or Zizek's brand of socialism, or Dostoevsky's desperate conservatism.

Did you notice a pattern, there?

>>8960366
Pretty much. It's weird that y'all take offense at SJWs saying 'all men are misogynist/racist/homophobic' and then turn around and take those beliefs to the extreme. Is it some kind of 'I'll give you something to REALLY cry about' mentality?

>>8961149
No one on /pol/ takes offense of those claims themselves. It's the hypocrisy that gets to us. I think /pol/ firmly believes to be right and wants others to see the light as well, so pointing out how feminism is sexist and so on *sniff* is a step forward to redpilling them.

>>8961213
The problem is /pol/ doesn't want to debate or present a logical, facial, or even persuasive argument. They want to shitpost and browsing beat it into people until someone admits /pol/ was right. They don't see any need for intellectual debate or conversation or backing up claims nor do they have any desire to show even a modicum of respect to anyone who does not see the world as they do. They see all other ideologies and thoughts as something to be crushed and bent to their will. It is really rather sickening. They're just spoiled children who have never been spanked and never told "no."

>>8961248
*Factual not facial

>>8960354
>people are actually responding to this.

Please ignore all posters who try to politicize /lit/ on the whole.

>>8961248
*brow beat not browser
Fuck, I'm just turning off the auto correct function at this point.

>>8961052

I don't have a plan. Do (You)?

>>8961213
But /pol/ and the alt right are just as intolerant, just as anti-intellectual, just as black and white thinking (literally and figuratively), just as identity politics focused, just as inclined to dismiss anyone who disagrees with them with buzzword insults. /pol/ is tumblr with completely opposite demographics and beliefs.

Neither should be taken at all seriously.

>>8961052
I don't plan to inflict this world on children. Neither me or my gf want them, for the same reason.

>>8961248
Browse /pol/ for a while.
regarding the debates: /pol/ cares for race. If you don't care for race no amount of logic will convince you otherwise. It's like a father who lost his daughter and says "ah, but there are 7 billion other people still alive in the world, so it really doesn't matter". Now if one cared for race one could start debating starting with the benefits of diversity and the benefits of social liberalism. Then one would pull out studies and statistics, one would argue analytically and so on *sniff*. But if you do not care for the white race and white culture, /pol/ will forever be alien to you. Except perhaps in 20 years, when diversity will take a toll on your quality of life as well. If you don't care for race, maybe you care at least for security and a minimal amount of wealth. Then perhaps you'd also start taking /pol/ more seriously. However, I noticed, all of liberalism boils down to "fairness". While there are some on /pol/ who like fairness ("Germany for the Germans" etc.) most, me including, don't care for fairness at all. Here again is a conflict that cannot be resolved with reason. It's essentially deeply rooted in personality. My theory is that deeper family attachment leads to more radical right wing ideals, while a loose family ethos leads to a more individuality-centric ideology.

>>8961281
RaHoWa

>>8961288
>you're a cuck!

I mean how can you even counter such a profound argument?

>>8961310
With 'you're a racist misogynist homophobe. You're basically a STRAIGHT WHITE MAN".
Duh.

>>8961288
Yes, that's the point. /Pol/ doesn't care for fairness. We take sides. What triggers us is that people who think they fight for social justice, equality, fairness, logic, the good fight etc are basically just like us, but on the other team. If they realized how similar to us they were, maybe peace would be possible. Peace by mutually agreed upon segregation.

>>8961322
And then there are the rest of us, the majority, who just want both polarizing sides just to shut the fuck up and fall asleep in their garages with their cars running just so we can get some peace and quiet.

>>8961303
But caring about race does not equate to logical argument.

Mostly /pol/'s threads on race go something along the lines of the following:
>waaah white women fuck black men, aren't they whores
>hurhur blacks have low IQ/asians have micro penises

>I'm going to blame a big jewish conspiracy for my failures as a human being
>white civilisation is the only one that's ever contributed to humanity
Anyone who disagrees or even points out exceptions to those threads is immediately called a cuck/jew/whatever

>>8961323
Can you imagine if you took both polarised sides and made them live in a remote island together?

>>8961322
Not fairness. You don't care about rationality, reason or logical argument.

>>8961335
Can we watch from afar?

Better yet, /lit/'s next book!

>>8960309
Why does /pol/ keep searching validation in /lit/?

The same thing happens in /fit/ its like /pol/ tries to find allies in their autistic crusade. Sopt being so needy, no one else cares about that.

>>8961344
The hatefucking would result in some of the worst genetic combinations in the history of mankind.

>>8961361
I feel like we need to write this just to spite /pol/ and their polar opposite. Almost "The Island of Dr. Moreau"-ish but they do it, devolve, to themselves through awful breeding and hatefucking and murder and rape.

>>8961377
Can you imagine how politically confused the kids would be?
"Daddy, why do you hate me"
"You're female and half black, the poison of western culture"
"mommy daddy is mean"
"I TOLD YOU TO USE Xirmmy, I'm not your MOTHER, mother is GENDERED"

>>8961393
You just wrote the opening dialog. BOOM

>>8961399
What should we call it though?

>>8961410
"Magga Island"?

A play on MAGA and magga as in the 4th noble truth of Buddhism as the cessation of suffering?

I have no idea, we need something good.

>>8961333
>But caring about race does not equate to logical argument.
But caring about race becomes the measure of good and evil. What is good for the race is good, what is bad for the race is evil. With the measure of your races' benefit all arguments of /pol/ originate.

It doesn't matter who has the higher IQ or whose civilization is superior. I admit this is all just smoke screens. We want the best for our race, it's existence, continuation and purity, no matter how it fares compared to other races. It's just a happy coincidence, that the Europeans managed to create the wealthiest nations and richest civilizations. If we did not, we'd still be proud. Pride, again, is not being happy with yourself that you have white skin, it comes with the duty to carry on the glorious fire of your ancestors. You cannot be truthfully proud and at the same time a NEET. /pol/s threads on races assume that you have already a background on common /pol/ core. What we basically do is share news that confirm our bias and meme about it. An outsider who didn't browse /pol/ consistently for several months wouldn't understand. We /pol/acks are the losers of the world. Our ideology is defeated, we are a minority, the only thing holy to us dies out. We only feed on humour, hate and irony. Especially irony. Deep inside, however, we hope for the collapse. We don't want the refugees to integrate. We don't want our politicians to be smart. We don't want the left wing utopia to pan out. We whine at every bad news, but for us there isn't bad news. Bad news are good and good news are bad. The deeper society digs its grave the less they can be blinded by their utopian bubble of make-believe equality fantasies. Then they will accept change to the old order. And if not then Europe will be swarmed with crazed lone wolves and small terror cells. If we have no say in politics and if we see now way to victory we'll have to bomb, arson and murder our way to justice. to us nonwhites aren't people. They are invaders. Who cares about arguments? What is there to argue? Why compromise with the enemy in our land?

If you cared for race we could use reason and arguments, I'm basically just repeating all I said before. But we cannot argue if our measure of what matters is completely unrelated. To me my race matters most, more than my own happiness, more than my sister, mother, father, my dog. I'd sacrifice them and myself gladly if I knew there'd be an eternal future for my people. Someone who doesn't "feel" that way can never agree with /pol/, even if /pol/ was filled with wise philosophers with excellent argumentative skills.

Perhaps an entry level to /pol/ would be to question the benefits and results of social freedoms and the strength of diversity. So Peter Hitchens is the absolute low-bar entry level /pol/ lore. And perhaps through Carlyle and others one might slowly ascend the ranks of the redpill until you accept the absolute holiness of race.

>>8961451
But what about gays, and women? That's not about race. They're common to all races.

>>8961451
Jesus Christ... You believe this shit?

>>8960309
Intentionally seeking out authors that affirm your political beliefs is pathetic behavior.

>>8961425
>I have no idea, we need something good.
Then we definitely shouldn't go with your shitty idea.

>>8961010
Well, I wouldn't go that far. I mean, I hate /pol/, but I hate jews just as much.

>>8960544
>I don't have to prove anything to you.
Yet you initially replied to him and identified yourself. kys

>>8961472
That's fine, let me think on it for a minute. I'm getting a google docs page set up.

i thought /lit/ liked conservative liberals because they were the ones who kept the lewd bits in the greeks. has /lit/ started reading after 1950? how gauche.

>>8960443
>leftism = marxism
Are you retarded?
>I'm a Trump voter
I guess that answers that.

go tell shinji to get back in the fucking robot

>>8961485
this is the best type of mad in this thread.

>my dick is bigger, whiter, and more just than yours: the thread

I prefer watching anime.

>>8961493
my dick is 3 times biggers than yours

>>8961495
it's okay, you can see from the title that they've converted her to a safe 2D format or "image" so your eye virginity is still intact. i was worried for a minute too.

>>8961460
I'm unsure what to do about gays. It'd probably better to legalize gay relationships. In case that it is genetic it's the only way to remove them. The real problem with gays is how they are being celebrated in society. Same with transgenders. They are inflicted individuals that probably were "born this way". it's not their fault. However degenerate sexualities shouldn't be encouraged, since children are very easy to influence. just like we have an age of consent we should keep gay and transgender influences away from them, until they can truly choose for themselves who they want to be. However even then their degenerate preferences should be kept in the bedroom, it has no place on the pedestal of society.

Regarding women: women aren't a terrible thing. They just are the way they are and they have always been this way. The problem is how society deals with women. If you push for their emancipation to the extreme you get results that a /pol/ack would find undesirable. This is mostly the fault of society rather than the fault of women: Similar to NEETs and nu-males and cucks and the like: tehy are just products of an ill society. It's not an inherent flaw of men or women, it's merely a dark potential that we have. men are inherently more violent and laws prevent them to be violent. Women (and certain sorts of men) are also inherent sluts, however laws could prevent them from being sluts. Maybe not even laws, but the process of shaming. Shaming has a very important societal function. It kept society in shape. Made us get jobs, get in shape, stop behaving like children with borderline personality disorder. Not everyone is born with the will to become a refined human being.Civilization needs to be trained, reinforced and disciplined into a human being, or many will be left behind like feral dogs. The feral dogs of modern western society are weak unemployed males and emancipated women who get children with 40.

This is the real problem /pol/ has with women and gays. Imagine a porno you might have seen (you filthy degenerate :^)). The woman you see there could have been the happy mother of 2 bright and happy children if society wasn't so liberal. We'd all be happier with less. I really wonder how /lit/ has not the same dreams as /pol/ has: the simple life with minimal material that is more based on the little things in life.

I guess the common enemy is globalism.

>>8961512
fuck off this thread is now about anime and yuri is the purest form of love baka

>>8961515
I don't like /pol/ or anime

>>8961524
>i hate 4chan
ok masochists a cute, but you have to wear skirt.

>>8961528
but I'm not a trap and I don't suck dick or like guys

>>8961010
I don't hate Jews, but Jews hate me.

>>8961524

Why do you even give a fuck about the influence of homosexuals? Assuming you aren't a /pol/ true believer we're you raised in a strict evangelical christian household? I'm not gay nor do I have gay friends but I am unable to give less fucks about what gender other people want to fuck. Authoritarians piss me off. Mind your own fucking business.

>>8961534
no you're a girl when you wear the skirt, don't be stupid. it's fine

>>8961512
So, women don't deserve respect, and are inherently childlike and inferior?

There's a reason women don't like this shit and are attracted to the left. If the right actually treated them like complex and capable human beings, maybe you'd get some back from the evil 'emancipation' you speak of.

>>8961536
You'll understand when you have a family.

>>8961541
>>8961536
stop talking to my futa gf. get your own magic girl, she's mine. thank you.

>>8961541
It doesn't matter what the women prefer when the civil war breaks out. Female suffrage was a mistake.

>>8961536
Whoa, I think you're confusing me with someone else entirely...

I don't have any problem with gays at all. I'm not an authoritarian, you've got me confused with the other anon writing retarded diatribes trying to justify his beliefs somehow.

>>8961539
No, I'm alright. I'll pass. But I'll just take it that you know from experience.

>>8961548
it's ok qt you can wear leash and i will keep you very safe inside for civil war.

>>8961548
>when the civil war breaks out.
Yeah, that's not going to happen

>>8961550
>No, I'm alright. I'll pass. But I'll just take it that you know from experience.
Why are you giving up on our love? ;_;

>>8961542
I'm not that anon, but I have a family and I still don't give a fuck what gay people do and who they influence.

>>8961548
So, what reason is there to have /pol/ beliefs if you're not, to borrow the SJW stereotype, an angry straight white man?
I am that, sans the anger, and I can't find myself giving any fucks about gays, women's rights (oddly enough, I actually respect my gf and we have a good, stable long term relationship) or blacks having rights.

>>8961559
Because that's what women do, I suppose. Throw you aside like an old coat and put on a new one.

I finally feel liberated, and I finally understand. I'm so sorry, I hope you're not mad at me. I hope you'll understand, too, someday. It's not you, it's me. It was all just too much for me too fast and I guess, well... I guess that it was just the timing wasn't right. Don't think I didn't care about you, I enjoyed our time, but I just can't do it. You understand, right?


>>8961560
hmu bebe

>>8961578
you want new skirt? ok i love you too

Shit like this is why my friends are deciding to date women. Men are either misogynists (or sexists) or cuckholds, there is no middle ground or decency anymore.

>>8961591
Anon, pls stop harassing me. I don't want to have to block you. I want a big strong man like /pol/ who'll show me the world. You're suffocating me.

>>8961597
no, it's because yuri purest form of love

>>8961601
but you like when i pull on your leash, silly anonkun. plus i cannot let you go outside, there is a civil war on. maybe tuesday.

>>8961597
That's not true at all. But I suppose that is what women think when they decide to meet dudes at bars and use tinder to find dates.

>>8961610
Well, where are these 'decent' guys then? most men either fall into one category or the other. If they're on the right, they probably don't respect women very much, and treat them as inferior.

If they're on the left they probably kowtow to women for being women, and hold them above criticism.

>>8961623
why are you looking for decent people in political gatherings? that seems naive beyond belief