/lit/ - Literature

>>8768448
Nothing really, there's no reason to believe it won't just evolve into another class structure after capitalism.
There's literally always going to be someone smarter.

>>8768448
Reading any book is a blow against Capitalism

>>8768448
>another /pol/ retard who has seen the picture from reddit

>>8768454
>There's literally always going to be someone smarter.

Literally me

>>8768448
Kapital
The State and Revolution
Supreme Object of Ideology

>>8768448
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_Q4019fEjo

just watch this video and get enlightened, and the mini video released after this one as addings to this

>>8768455
I don't know if this was a >meme or >irony but it made sense to me. When everything today bears the veil of consumerism, commercialism and so on, it's easy to forget (and most do) to try and actively better yourself, improve and learn something. You see it daily, those apps that track progress to just make you feel like you've done something, somewhat an extended instat gratification. And small talk these days is rarely 'small' (how's life/weather/etc) but more circle-jerkatory -- that is, high school studets idealise the 'thug', the rudeness to your professor, the skipping of classes, overdrinking, smoking or shallow materialism (I love your boots! That's a sick kick, brah!). And older people are too tired of working 9-5 24/7 to even read. TV is, as it clearly is, the quick way to loosen the nerves.

Reading a book is fighting capitalism.

>>8768479
I legitimately can't tell if this is satire or not. Help.

>>8768528
Then you need to go back to /pol/

>>8768534
I don't subscribe to the /pol/ bogeyman theory, sorry Anon.

>>8768541
>I don't identity as this so don't call me that

Hypocrit that you are

>>8768448
That pic is dumb as fuck. Marx sees esclavism, feudalism and capitalism as historically necessary social organizations and, therefore, those who could satisfy better the exigences of population given X material conditions. Marx's oposition to capitalism didn't intended to be a preference or anything in which moral or individual judgements matter at all when it comes to the bigger picture.
tl;dr Marx didn't see no system as a contingence whose equally contingent flaws would be solved via revolution.

Classic communist. Always resentful against the successful first before helping the poor.

Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes.

take the roi-pill

>>8768448
Bakunin
Goldman
Kropotkin
de Cleyre
Stirner
My forthcoming novel desu

>>8768572
Agreed

>>8768572
Wouldn't Monarchism be the purple pill?

>>8768472
Varg go back to making black metal again

>>8768559
>That pic is dumb as fuck. Marx sees
Marx is Marx.

>>8768472
>>8768468
>>8768561
>>8768570
>>8768678

I love how /lit is the the least well read board on 4chan.

If any of you pulled your head out of your frankfurtian asshole you'd realize that capitalism is the only stable economic system that creates wealth.

Both communism and an-cap (which are two opposite sides of the spectrum) are imperfect, purely because men are imperfect. However, since capitalism leads to decentralization, any one corruptible person can only do so much harm.

>>8768700
Two of those comments were anti-communist senpai.

>>8768700
how about nah
also your pic is shit-tier /pol/ bait

>>8768726
>not an argument
>>8768710
yeah

>>8768732
>not an arguement is not an argument

How do communists justify stealing from other people? That's all the forced redistribution of goods is and they the nerve to call capitalist greedy. At least they're not trying to use government force to take what they haven't earned.

How do capitalists justify stealing from other people? That's all the stolen surplus value of goods is and they the nerve to call communist greedy. They're also trying to use government force to take what they haven't earned.

>>8768700
>centralisation is bad
>communism is bad
>kek

>>8768479
Shut the fuck up

>>8768759
>everyone will just magically rearrange themselves and oppose all froms of hierarchies

You need some form of force to enforce your dumb rules.

>>8768769
what about something like a transition state?

>>8768778
Anyone who managed to get into leadership roles of that state wont give it up, there is a reason they're leading the state, and it aint because they dont want power.

>>8768748
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/for-ourselves-the-right-to-be-greedy-theses-on-the-practical-necessity-of-demanding-everything.pdf

>>8768757

What communists routinely call theft isn't actually theft. When I put up my own money and take the risk to buy land and manufacturing equipment to make a product that may or may not sell I am not stealing from my employees who get paid regardless of whether I do. There is no government coercion in this voluntary transaction so there simply is no "stolen surplus of goods.". I know Marx had a tough time understanding but just try really hard. It is not theft when employees agree to a specific wage and get paid that wage, it would be theft if when my company failed my employees also had to shoulder the costs of my failure like it does with communism.

>>8768472
>>8768472
>Not THE family guy though
Fucking Varg

>>8768572
>Lets go back to primitive capitalism

Friggin goldbugs. Your fetish is tiring.

>>8768787

I'm not clicking your bullshit. Use your own words or don't bother.

>>8768700
>Creates wealth
Holy ideology Batman!

>>8768796
Sorry for expecting too much of you, who am I for thinking that right-wingers could read?

>>8768700
The Cheka did nothing wrong; Nicholas and his aristos had it coming.

>>8768700
>However, since capitalism leads to decentralization, any one corruptible person can only do so much harm.
THIS.

I really enjoyed reading Hayek and Friedman. Freedom is the freedom to compete.

Why are leftists so delusional?
central planning FUCKING sucks ass

>>8768804

I expect people to be able to defend their own principles. If you just want to trade links I could give you a hundred different articles tell you how stupid communism is but that wouldn't be very productive and you know that.You're not confident in your beliefs and that's okay, but don't pretend you're better than anyone.

The best system, would be a central world government, and then various states which formulated their own laws and cultures, but which all absolutely agreed to abide by the central authority of agreeable law (perfect sensical, unbiased international law (so that one state couldn't make murder for fun legal; I would begin to say, unless everyone thought they should be allowed to do so, but then this might just inspire them from kidnapping people from other states to replenish their ever draining stock of citizens)

Every one in the world would be notified that this is the game plan: everyone would receive a brochure of all the different states all made up of citizens pursuing living under their own ideals.

The only difficulty, as apparently always, would then be resources

inb4 this is the stupidest idea ever. No, you are the stupidest idea ever

>>8768792
i never said we needed to go back to gold standard/mercantilism/bartering

>>8768849
If you linked something, and if I linked something, both of us reading them, we could both be actually learning. But you're being lazy so it's time to bring out the hard-hitting 4chan rhetoric to make it seem like you win whatever competition is meant to be happening.

>>8768832
tbqhfam as long as mountain dew, fast food, cheetos, vidya, mlp, and welfare exists, color me happy and you capitalists can count on me

>>8768837
this, desu

>>8768837
>central planning FUCKING sucks ass

Most companies themselves are centrally planned are they not?

The president is relatively a central planner, congressional vote is relatively central power

>>8768865
Tl;dr: I'm too lazy to actually type a defense

>>8768700
>capitalism is the only stable economic system that creates wealth.
>>creates wealth

this my friend is exactly the problem

>>8768873
>this post

Better be ironic

>>8768874
Just read "The Right to be Greedy" ok?

>>8768748

property is metaphysical drapery disgusing real labor relations which are exploitative.

>>8768700

What is it about communism that always leads to innocents dying I don't get it?

>>8768882

In what way is a voluntary contract between two people exploitative?

>What communists routinely call theft isn't actually theft
no one calls it theft unless you are shit posting on the internet.

>When I put up my own money and take the risk to buy land and manufacturing equipment to make a product that may or may not sell I am not stealing from my employees who get paid regardless of whether I do.
this is why no start ups in the world has ever forced unpaid overtime, no start up has ever failed and screwed over the worker, and every failed company has always paid the worker a fair wage. you are so ideologically away from reality it hurts.

>There is no government coercion in this voluntary transaction so there simply is no "stolen surplus of goods.".
i know where this is going

> I know Marx had a tough time understanding but just try really hard.
marx would have called you a fucking retard

>It is not theft when employees agree to a specific wage and get paid that wage
yea clearly sweatshop workers should just not take the jobs if they don't like the pay they are given. let's just ignore how that is literally not an option for most people in the world if you want to afford housing, food, electricity and utensils.

>it would be theft if when my company failed my employees also had to shoulder the costs of my failure like it does with communism.
like the wall street bailouts? like how start ups are known for not paying workers unless they are succesful (which most of them aren't)? like firing employees, taking away their living wagers, to outsource so the few leading can make more money?

fucking an-caps man go outside for once you fucking nerd.
also i'm going to sleep feel free to argue with the air if you want.

>>8768873
mixed economy, senpai
u think the govt can really set all dose prices?

>>8768882
this t b h

>>8768837
The people who under-write, analyze, trade, and sell securities already largly plan production.
Capitalism by inventing share-capital slowly socializes [in a undemocratic manner] ownership of the economy. Privately owned capital has been becoming less and less relevant for over 100 years. Central planning is just the despotic hegemonic rule of the 1 last surviving capital.

>>8768898
A mixed economy cannot prevent the tendency of the rate of profit to fall. Governments are impotent in the face of market forces.

>>8768891
The value put into the company by the labourers doing labour is far less than what they receive in wages, and the capitalist class (Bourgeoisie, 1%, whatever term you like) pocket the difference.

>>8768700
Your first problem is assuming that any capitalist is an innocent

>>8768479
Goddamn i am so triggered. 8/10 bait anon, consider a career on writing fiction.

>>8768896

I wish you wouldn't write like a retard. It's against the law to force unpaid overtime because get this, forcing people to do things is immoral and illegal. It's also illegal to contract labor and not pay them, even if the business fails. The employees are the first ones to get paid during a bankruptcy and the employees aren't forced to bail out the companies like they would under communism. The employees are not on the hook for any debts incurred by the employer.

Let's talk about them government bailouts. The government forces banks to give loans to people even if those people couldn't possibly pay them bank which directly caused those banks to default. Since the government forced them into those transactions it is only right for the government to cover the cost, which they did. This is called crony capitalism. A capitalist solution to this problem would have been to not cause it in the first place. Capitalism wouldn't have forced the banks to give out any loans and wouldn't have been forced to bail the banks out. This is just another example of why government coercion is bad and it works against your case as a communist.

Nobody is forcing them to work for anyone else. As an employee you have the power to negotiate your own wage, take it or leave it. This is not in any way exploitative and you haven't demonstrated any reason to think it is. This is freedom.

>>8768944
Meant for
>>8768929

>>8768448
Hypersphere

>>8768920

>>8768957
good rebuttal

>>8768448
Assuming you're asking in earnest: There is no one book. Obviously Marx's Capital is the big classic text but it's still older. That said really give Capital a try even if it's through something like Harvey's Reading Capital or going through articles like SEP[1] (it's not an easy text to break into). Really understanding it, however, is hinged on two factors: intellectual honesty and experience. If you're outside the material reality of the working class or aren't able to sympathize with the working class because that's an inconvenient and compromising position then you'll just hate it or forget it.

1: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/

>>8768867
>tbqhfam as long as mountain dew, fast food, cheetos, vidya, mlp, and welfare exists, color me happy and you capitalists can count on me

And what if you were a 15 year old working 12 hours a day in a sweatshop for a small pittance? You are but a cog in a vast machine of oppression, completely alienating from any true humanity

>>8768944
>>8768949
You HAD the power to negotiate wages, but collective bargaining has been all but eliminated in the past 20 years or so. Also, the power to "take it or leave it" is meaningless when ALL companies offer a wage less than the value of your labour. You have to take a job with one of them, otherwise you'll be impoverished and likely homeless; in this way they have a gun to your head. The "choice" is between an exploitative relationship I(i.e. a minimum wage retail or fast food job) and a slightly less exploitative one (i.e. a 9-to-5 cubicle farm job) with no non-wageslave option.

>>8768748
How do capitalists justify stealing from other people? That's all the forced redistribution of profit is and they have the nerve to call workers greedy. And they use government force to take what they haven't earned.

>>8768819
Fact

>>8768891
>In what way is a voluntary contract between two people exploitative?

Option A: Sign this contract
Option B: Die

>>8768700
>since capitalism leads to decentralization

>>8768983
>You have to take a job with one of them

You would have to take whatever job is available under communism but not with capitalism. If nobody wants to pay you what you think you deserve you have every right to start your own business. This option is not available under a central control.

There is no gun involved with people not offering you the wage you desire or you choosing not earn it. There is a gun involved when the government tells me I have to work at a certain place or that I can only earn a certain amount or when I have to rely on them to let me start my own business to compete in the market.

>>8768898
>u think the govt can really set all dose prices?

the prices would be the lowest, the government would not set prices, they would know the natural prices based on the actual explicitly given statistics of supply and demand.

>>8768944
>As an employee you have the power to negotiate your own wage
>take it or leave it.

Think about this for a second

>>8768986

In what way are they stealing from people? I probably already answered your objection here >>8768790

>>8768700
Someone post this in the badphil sub onegaishimasu.

>>8769015
A gun is there and it's call wages. You work or you die.
>you have every right to start your own business
Jesus

>>8769020

A negotiation isn't really a negotiation if you don't have the power to walk away. Under capitalism you have that power, if you don't like the wage you're offered you threaten to go somewhere else, or actually go somewhere else and take your skills with you. This is not the case with communism. There is no negotiation, you either work there or you go to prison.

>>8769030

There is no compulsion to work for any wage you don't desire. You can go somewhere else, you can start a business, you can do whatever you want. Where is the gun in this?

>>8769019
oh what a great system
maybe the USSR could implement it and eliminate all these lines for bread and toilet paper

>This thread
Why do champagne socialists think the working class cares about their plight to afford SanFran rental prices?

>>8769021
>Worker produces materials for commodity's production.
>Worker makes commodity.
>Worker sells commodity.
>Worker transports commodity.
>Worker maintains the building that stores the commodity.
>Capitalist receives all the earnings generated by the sale of the commodity and then dolls out a wage to workers a fraction's worth of the time and labor actually put in.

That's closer to actual theft than redistribution of goods/money. Unless you're one of those "taxes = theft" kind of persons.

>>8768448
the kingdom of god is within you by leo tolstoy

>>8769038
>There is no compulsion to work for any wage you don't desire.
Must be nice to be afford this kind of delusion.

>>8769015
>>8769038
Starting a business requires startup capital, which you get either by working for an existing company first (for whatever wage they choose to offer) or by having it loaned from a venture firm, which will then attach all sorts of strings to your income if you even manage to make any (sucess rates for startups aren't particularly good; for every Apple there's a hundred failed tech corps no one's ever heard of). Either way the odds of the labourer receiving a fair portion of the value generated is low.

>>8769048
>Implying I'm not posting on my cigarette break at the loading dock

>>8769051

In exchange for this the employees get financial security. When the company fails or when the stock prices drop there wages don't also drop. They get paid exactly what they agreed to regardless of what happens. If you don't like tradeoff you don't have to partake, you can start your own business or grow your own food. Nobody is forcing you to work for anyone else under capitalism.

>>8769032
Capitalism doesn't offer one "the power" to be homeless vagabonds, kid.

"The species began in poverty" -Thomas Sowell

https://youtu.be/nKWqvXUoF5o

Take that you fucking commies!

>>8769057

Can you give me an example of somebody being forced to work a job in America? Like is there a construction worker out there that doesn't want to be a construction worker but he can't quit because the government will send him to prison?

I don't like equating food from slave masters to technology bought on the free market for reasons that should be pretty fucking obvious
how i hate these idiotic strawman cartoons

>>8769070
Capitalism literally doesn't work unless there's a labor class that's forced to sell its labor. Yes, forced. Because "not eating" is quite obviously not a choice.

>>8769075
BASED Dr. Sowell will shoo away the many spooks in this thread

>>8769080

Is there a law that stops people from growing their own food or something? The choice is not to work for McDonald's or die. The choice is either to improve your own skills and make yourself more valuable to an employee or you can make you own living. There is no compulsion.

>>8769076
He can't quit because he can't get a higher-paying job, because those jobs require higher education or training his parents couldn't afford to give him, because THEY were construction workers who couldn't quit because they couldn't get higher-paying jobs, and so on and so on.

>>8769051
The employees didn't bear any risk, the shareholders did. Furthermore there are over 10,000 publicly traded companies in the US alone, anyone is welcome to become a shareholder.

Serious question time, why can't Socialism produce anything of quality? Here our largest co-operative group produces some of the least usable services and some of the highest costs that they had to pay multiple conservative advisors to investigate what the actual fuck was going wrong.

>>8769076
>the government will send him to prison?
Are you retarded? If you dont pay taxes this is exactly what they do

>>8769076
There's a construction worker out there that doesn't want to be a construction worker, he wants to be a theoretical physicist, or an evolutionary biologist, or a professional dancer, but he doesn't have the finances or time to pursue that because he was born into the working class and is required to sell his labor, earn a wage, and subsist on consuming the product he and his class creates for the profit of the class he and his class labor for. Alternatively, there is a construction worker out there that wants to be a construction worker but he can't because the industry has squeezed out workers of his skillset because it's not profitable and now he has to work below his skillset and what he should be earning.

You're a moron.

>>8768832

capitalism tends toward monopoly

>>8769096

So he's limited by his own life choices and decisions. There is no force or compulsion in this. He's not being forced to work because he literally has the freedom not to. He could choose to disregard his own self imposed limits at any time.

>>8769092
>Is there a law that stops people from growing their own food or something?
Yes, property law does exactly that, you fucking child.

>>8769105

If you don't work you don't have to pay taxes.

>>8769106

These are self imposed limits that I covered here >>8769113

>>8769106
>boo hooo my mommy said I could be anything I wanted, why aren't I an astronaut

>>8769113
This earlier anon >>8768976 was right, if you're living outside the working class and just don't have sympathy no amount of argumentation matters.

>>8769047
Oh, maybe someone would understand what the current year (and beyond) means

>>8769114

Guess what the capitalist position on property laws are. Here's a hint: the less regulation (government coercion) the better.

>>8769110
>capitalism tends toward monopoly
No, crony "capitalism" tends towards monopoly.

this book right here.

all other revolutions are false

>>8769123
Wait, what? Your entire argument is that no one is limited and can seek or create any kind of employment they want, but now you're saying that's not the case but this doesn't somehow work against your fairytale capitalism? Get bent.

>>8769125

Nigger I work in an aluminum extrusion factory. I am the definition of working class.

>>8768448
capitalism works, socialist literature is basically YA fantasy

>>8768891

because the peculiar use-value of labor power, when commoditized, enables it to produce value in excess of the value needed to produce the commodities that sustain it for the length of time during which it used. this "surplus value," whose origin is labor, is appropriated by the capitalist. this is exploitation, and is the constitutive violation of every free market exchange in capitalism. that is to say that abuse is impossible on the market, in theory—but in practice, production is impossible without it.

>>8769130
>My perfect, ideal capitalism that hasn't been tried yet doesn't have this problem, real capitalism isn't real capitalism

>>8769133

The argument isn't that nobody is limited, it's that nobody is limited by the government while under capitalism.

>>8769118
Yeah and if you don't work you also don't have any fucking money so you can't afford food and shelter. How stupid are you

>>8769142
>The argument isn't that nobody is limited
>>8769038
>You can go somewhere else, you can start a business, you can do whatever you want. Where is the gun in this?

>>8768448
There are none. All other ideologies are idealist nonsense that ignore human greed or irrationality. Capitalism is the only pragmatic system.

>>8768552
>Help, this Anon won't immediately accept the label I put on him, and shut up.
>I'm so educated, everything I say about other people just MUST be true
Why don't you go spend some time with Mr Marx. Some Bleach will get you there real quick.

>>8769142
So having limitations imposed is fine, as long as it's a corporation doing it and not the government?

>>8769138

See

>>8768790

This idea that profit equals theft is retarded. As an employee you're not putting your own livelihood on the line when a company fails so you have no right to that "surplus value".

>>8769118
It's also illegal to sleep on the street, in woods, etc.

>>8769133
I'm a different anon, not my argument.

>>8769148

LIMITED BY GOVERNMENT

The argument isn't that nobody is limited (there are self imposed limitations through decisions, ect) , it's that nobody is LIMITED BY GOVERNMENT while under capitalism.

What is comes down to is life is not fair, but capitalism is the closest approximation to a fair society.


Also you socialists are a bunch of pussies.

>>8768937
ur problem is that reality is against u, so you retreat into abstractions like "rights" and "the law," but theory is against you there, too.

>>8769159
>in woods
You actually aren't, that's actually one of the few places you can legally occupy.

>>8769075
>"The species began in poverty" -Thomas Sowell

And then the oppressive capitalist began stealing his neighbors labor and voila, all the fruits of civilization

>>8769162
I'm sure that's very comforting to those of us outside the class where the "government limitation" of guaranteed employment is a "problem". The point still stands, even in the idealist capitalist society one does not simply live through self-sufficiency and is a free partner in equal worker-employer relations.

Can a communist explain to me why the less skilled man deserves the same amount of pay as the higher skilled man?

>>8769174

Don't like it? Go hunt and gather!

>>8768865
Asking you to defend your ideals and not just lazily link to some freaking website is not unreasonable. You ought to be able to articulate your ideas in your own words in order to communicate effectively, just telling people to read something is, surprise surprise, not a very good method of communication

Maybe your dumbass would get this is you weren't too busy calling people who disagree with your "right wingers" as though that meant anything.

>>8769168
Good luck finding a place that isn't property owned by someone privately or a government agency.

>>8769174
>stealing labor
Labor isn't property.
I thought one of the tenets of capitalism involved the voluntary exchange of goods and services.

>>8769153
>implying people's livelihoods aren't put at risk when companies go under
Look up "Detroit 2008" sometime

>>8769181
Because successful people hurt my feelings

>>8769076

just so u know that argument requires asserting necessity (hunger, thirst, basically the body as such) doesn't exist.

>>8769188
>Detroit 2008

Caused by socialism.

>>8769188
Or "rust belt". Some of us live here and have seen this lovely free exchange of equal partners where the workers don't have any risk at all and are treated so fairly and wonderfully by the magnanimous capitalist.

>>8769198
Thank the labor unions!!!!!

>>8768448
Create a better system of allocation of resources in a context of scarcity.

>pro-tip: you can't

>>8769181
Strawman please go

>>8769181
leftists want equity because some folks are "over-privileged"
Pajeet and Fu Manchu need to tone it down with the ACT scores because Jamal, Pedro and Tonto don't look so bad.

>>8769186
Doesn't matter, you can claim unused private land if you've lived on it and the owners have made no attempt to remove you.

Property disputes are really fucking common way of getting free (mostly useless) land.

>>8769130

right i forgot about all the ethical capitalists motivated by the drive to actualize the ideal free market and not by profit that have existed in history lol

The main problem with marxists is with the women, however many there are of those, are always degenerate, and rarely fit for motherhood, inbf muh nuclear, successful child rearing is necessarily the foundation of any possible society... or let me guess... everyone is a marxist, they just don't know it yet?

>>8769204
Labor unions share the blame. They capitulated and gave capitalists power over them. They gave them everything they wanted and it still wasn't enough. The funny thing is they proved what the left was saying. The average american doesn't care for violence or obstructing order because they've been programmed this way (to be "good workers") but now they're stuck in poverty. Should have radicalized and taken over control of their labor by force.

>>8768790
>when employees agree to a specific wage and get paid that wage

Except when the FUCK does that ever happen.

Barring any sort of labor laws, the capitalist pays you as little as he can get away with so you're just on this side of starvation but remain productive for him.

mfw ancaps actually believe this shit

Why do leftists enjoy famines so much? Does "left" refer to their position on the bell curve or something?

This thread just confirmed my belief that socialists are retarded. I know most of you will grow out of it after college but still, what a sad you guys are in.

Marxists: the people who are sad would rather trade their sadness for comfort, inclusion, "happiness"

Not Marxists: the people who are not sad, do not want to trade their happiness for anything, the sad marxists tell them

>>8769220
It's amazing how far outside of reality the trust fund babby's mind is.

>>8769181
Communist-ruled countries have often in practice had wage differentiation.

>>8769165
Are socialists a bunch of pussies or did socialists kill a gorillion billion people by being sheer evil? Please decide.

>>8769197
Socialism is not "government does things". Marx wrote in detail about how the bourgeois state exists for the benefit of the class that constitutes it, and that it extends naturally from the capitalist market (which is why "crony capitalism" always seems to mysteriously follow the golden age free market era).

>>8769149
pic related

>>8769162
What is 'self-imposed' about growing up in a shitty working class town with no jobs because your parents were manual labourers? Or being a third-world migrant worker who can't afford the education necessary to perform the "rags to riches" magic trick because his only options are work at this shitty factory or work at that shitty factory or beg in the street?

>>8769221
>>8769224
>>8769225
BTFO'd hard

>>8768448

I don't know, op, and that sounds kind of hostile.
What I do know is that I would really get a kick out of it if some dude named Frankenstein wrote a biography of Mary Shelley.

>>8769220

>Except when the FUCK does that ever happen.

It happens every time somebody freely hires somebody for a job. They offer to pay a wage and you either accept it or not. You will get paid for the work you do regardless of whether that company fails or not.

>>8769230

>Are socialists a bunch of pussies or did socialists kill a gorillion billion people by being sheer evil? Please decide.

Pussies.

>>8769220
>tfw capitalist boss pays me pay to much for how little I do
Should've got a CS degree instead of a gender studies degree lad.

>>8769240
why not both

>>8769224
>>8769228

>>8769239
>IF I KEEP SAYING IT IT'S TRUE
>*CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP*

>>8769230
>pic related
You know, acknowledging the existence of a common criticism of your utopian fantasy via a silly meme doesn't actually refute it. This isn't your socialist groupthink bubble, you can't upvote your way out of an argument

>>8769239
>You will get paid for the work you do regardless of whether that company fails or not.

Who would enforce such a thing. Your invisible hand? This should be good.

Buttmad Ancaps HATE this ONE simple trick that DESTROYS their ideology

>>8769146

>>8769230

>What is 'self-imposed' about growing up in a shitty working class town with no jobs because your parents were manual labourers? Or being a third-world migrant worker who can't afford the education necessary to perform the "rags to riches" magic trick because his only options are work at this shitty factory or work at that shitty factory or beg in the street?

What is self imposed about being a migrant worker????????? MIGRATING YOU DUMB FUCK!!!!!

>>8769250

The courts. If somebody rips you off you take them to court.

>>8769246
>Leopold II
>Capitalism
Gets me every time.

>>8769228
It's amazing how far outside reality this bitcoin miner *AHEM* captain of industry's dorito-encrusted basement setup is.

>>8769243
Good point.

>>8769246
The preservation of innocent lives isn't a goal of capitalism. Capitalism isn't a teenage fairy tale where everybody is happy and peaceful and lives forever, so judging according to the standards of your failed utopia doesn't make much sense

>>8769251

Build your own shelter or grow your own food. The beautiful thing about freedom is all the choices.

>>8768882
i want to steal everything you have desu

>>8769252

>I CAN'T COUNTER THIS BETTER LATCH ONTO SOME SPECIFIC DETAIL AND RAILROAD IT
Doesn't really work in this case those since migrant workers are products of capitalism's demand of cheap labor and economic ravishing of foreign countries

>>8769260
Growing food takes time you dipshit. What do you do until your tomatos grow or your goat is full grown? Just not eat?

>>8769266

Why do you people always expect everything to be handed to you? Earn your own way.

>>8769256
Idiots tends to be tickled easily

>>8769259
>The preservation of innocent lives isn't a goal of capitalism
Finally, one of them stumbles on the truth.

>>8769247
But the point of the meme is that "did you ever think about that" makes no sense because Marx and other Marxists have written in detail about how human nature is determined by the economic conditions of the human in question, and so implying that Marxism has just plain forgotten that "it's human nature to be an asshole" is a sign that someone has never even read Marx beyond a dismissive skin-read of the manifesto.

>>8769252
I meant being a migrant worker in the sense of being a worker who migrates from the countryside to the city to find work, as is common in China or India.

>>8769260
Is 'grow your own food' some kind of weird ancap meme? You are literally suggesting that the problems in our politico-economic system are not really problems because you can go live in the woods and ignore them if you really want to.

>>8769259
So what is the value of capitalism?

>>8769263

You asked what is self imposed about a migrant workers situation and gave you the obvious answer.

That's what happens when you're full of shit. Honestly what did you expect?

>>8769260
Where?

>>8769274

one more time... MIGRATING YOU DUMB FUCK

>>8769174
>>"The species began in poverty" -Thomas Sowell
>And then the oppressive capitalist began stealing his neighbors labor and voila, all the fruits of civilization

And what, like 700 years ago capitalism was invented (151 years ago "slavery was abolished")

What happened in the mean time? The leveling of the playing field? The horrors of a cooperative humanity?

>>8769275
I'm a different anon. Being a migrant is not a self-imposed state.

Are you actually saying Einstein and the plethora of other German Jews fleeing Germany was self-imposed?

>the workers should run the factories!
>the average high school dropout can easily run complex logistical systems
Is communism the most deluded ideology on the planet?

>>8769282
Fight or flight sempai

>>8769187
>Labor isn't property.
I thought one of the tenets of capitalism involved the voluntary exchange of goods and services.
Tell that to the builders of the pyramid (scheme)

>>8769283
Finally someone gets it

>>8769283

It's no coincidence that people become a lot less sympathetic to socialism once they get a job/

>>8769280
Capitalism is older than humanity itself.

>>8769275
>>8769263
>Pedro can't rise above his shitty working class village existence and his job in the factory
>GO WORK IN A BETTER COUNTRY
>Pedro can't afford to bribe the border guards
>SELL YOUR LABOUR
>the factory doesn't pay enough,
>YOU STILL HAVE CHOICES
>there are no other local businesses
>SELL YOUR BODY
>Pedro's ass is pounded raw and he gets enough money to leave his shithole
>THE SYSTEM WORKS
>as a migrant he can only work the shittiest jobs in his new country
>DON'T FORGET YOUR 'CAN-DO' SPIRIT
>he goes back to having his ass pounded
>DON'T LIKE IT? GO LIVE IN THE WOODS!
>he is shot for trespassing by a shitty third-world cop
>BEING SHOT TO DEATH IS A CHOICE TOO ASSHOLE, TRY AGAIN NEXT LIFE

>>8769253
THE COURTS!!!

That's government coercion, pal. Those brave, entrepreneurial risk takers shouldn't have to pay those hangers on dick. They can all go start small businesses! Work somewhere else! MUH FREEDOM

>>8769239
Yea but the capitalist has hundreads of millions of people fighting each other to take the job for the lowest big

>>8769283
>the average high school dropout can easily run complex logistical systems

Anyone that's worked upper management knows this is actually the case. Unless you're working in theoretical science or some shit.

>mfw these tards were just arguing that ANYONE CAN BE ANYTHING YOU'RE JUST LIMITED YOURSELF START A BUSINESS but now are saying literally only a select group of people actually can do this

>>8769302

The government has a legitimate role in settling those sorts of disputes.

>>8769296
>Pedro can't rise above his shitty working class village existence and his job in the factory


THEN THAT IS ALL PEDRO DESERVES!!!

>>8769296
A+

>>8769303

Sink or swim faggot. Just because you can't compete in the free market doesn't mean you get to use the government gun to level the playing field.

>>8769295

>>8769306
You honestly think anyone can manage a business?

Interesting delusion.

Not a chance without the aptitude or some "skin in the game"

>>8769310
Better watch out. We got a badass here.

>>8769320
>If you don't want to sell your labor for wages start a business anyone can do it you're free to do everything
>You honestly think anyone can manage a business? Interesting delusion.

Which is it?

>>8769247
Capitalism can never work, because human nature

>>8769319

Capitalism, in the sense that it is individuals working in their own self interest outside without intervention, absolutely did exist before modern humans.

>>8769316
I love it when people born into comfortable lives say this kind of shit. Keep it up, kulak.

>>8769306
>confusing equal opportunity with equal outcome
Did you attend an American public school?

>>8769325
You're also free to fail. Survival or the fittest.

>Capitalism just forces people to accept low wages
>CEO's and executives get paid way too much money though

Wait a minute...

>>8769336
>Capitalism, in the sense that it is individuals working in their own self interest outside without intervention
That's not how capitalism is defined.

>>8769336

1. Capitalism

2. "individuals working in their own self interest outside without intervention"

pickone

Actually i don't know why i'm here. You're so fucking stupid it's pathetic, you really are.

>>8769350

Yes I am aware that is not what is written in Websters dictionary verbatim.

I'm still right.

>>8769343

I work 12 hours a day in a shitty factory. You have no fucking who you're talking to. The difference between me an you is principles and morals. I value freedom and I think it's wrong to steal. That's what separates us.

>>8769353

I get it, you're still upset about Castro.

>>8769355
>Yes I am aware that is not [what capitalism is].
>I'm still right.

A perfect microcosm of liberals, the fanatical insistence of having their cake and eating it too.

>>8769356
I promise you, your boss is delighted with your principles and morals; they'll reward him far more than they'll ever reward you.

Maybe if you're still stuck in a shithole working ridiculous hours you're a sinker and not a swimmer. Perhaps this is what you deserve.

>>8769356
>I work 12 hours a day in a shitty factory.
No you don't

>>8769356
yeah sure bud btw my uncle works for nintendo

>>8769356
>"Oh yes employer-senpai fuck me harder! Yes, yes, yes, I am voluntarily entering into a contract between free individuals with you, we are equals, senpai, it feels so good please let my womb taste the fair and just benefits of your cock's rational market-regulated decision!"

>>8769358
Your non-argument game is stronk

>>8769362

It is exactly what I deserve and it's exactly what I choose to do. I can choose this instant to quit and find another job or earn my way through life any way I wish. Nobody is forcing me to work in that factory and I'm not using the government gun to steal other peoples money.

>>8769369
top kek

>>8769356
What separates us is that your IQ is in the double digits, you have no skills or value, and you browse r/socialism

>>8769377

Why would I browse r/socialism? I'm a capitalist.

>>8769377
>What separates us is that your IQ is in the double digits
Yeah you really proved it with your quote power, moron.

>>8769372


...and they doubt the reality of a thing called 'surplus value' when we have clowns like this creating boatloads of it with smiles on their faces.

>>8769386
Please don't reply to me again. If you do not have a triple digit IQ then my responses are simply too difficult for you to understand and there is no point to speaking with you

>>8769387

Nobody doubts the existence of profit. We say that the worker who volunteered to work for a specific wage has no right to that profit.

>>8769372
>It is exactly what I deserve and it's exactly what I choose to do
If you weren't roleplaying you would be proving liberalism is literally cuck ideology, what are you doing

>>8769392

I'm not a liberal. The only reason I brought up that I worked in a factory was because I was accused of being some rich guy instead of just regular guy who values freedom.

>>8769391
And if that worker gets together with others to demand those wages be higher?

>WAHHHH THE UNIONS ARE UNFAIRLY TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ME PLEASE HLP ME GOVERNMENT

Suddenly the big bad guns of the unfair and coercive government are the capitalist's best friend.

>>8769401
>I'm not a liberal.
Not American terminology for Democrat/social liberal. A liberal as in a proponent of capitalism.

>>8769408

If a company were to use the government gun to stop workers from negotiating wages that would be crony capitalism. That's not something any capitalist would support.

>>8769401
Well you're obviously not valuing that freedom hard enough. Your boss might have some tips for you in that direction.

The tip of his dong, maybe. And the rest of it, too. We all know you can't wait to take it.

>>8769415
>If a company were to use the government gun to stop workers from negotiating wages that would be crony capitalism. That's not something any capitalist would support.
And yet that's literally, exactly how it played out.

>>8769413
>>8769392

Oh I see what you mean. There's nothing cuck about it. I'm not a skilled worker so I don't deserve a high paying lucrative job. I just recognize it for what it is. I literally just stand in front of a saw and press buttons all day. It's comfortable enough.

>>8769391
What do you have against marxism?

>>8769415
>If a company were to use the government gun to stop workers from negotiating wages that would be crony capitalism. That's not something any capitalist would support.

That...you can't be for real.

Literally EVERY one of the great industrialists of yore (your heroes, I assume) EVERY. FUCKING. ONE OF THEM DID JUST THIS