/lit/ - Literature

>>8456994
deus ex would be mediocre at best

>>8456994
>tfw all I want to do is write a cheesy Deus Ex style cyberpunk mystery novel
>not enough of a fucking madman to come up with all the insane terminology

Jacking into the cyberdock just isn't my specialty

>nobel price
>price

Haha anon I don't think you'll ever live that one down.

>>8457003
The predictions alone would make it a hit(predicted 9/11, predicted the afghan war, predicted the governments way to combat terror, NSA, DHS, fearmongering. pretty impressive if you remember how much of an afterthought terror was at the time). the heartfelt scenes like "what a shame" and "A bomb" makes it high lit

great american novel: the game

>>8457016
>a bomb

True art. JC's complete lack of care about the situation representing the way in which the hopelessness of his situation has dulled his reactions to even the most extreme of circumstances.

One of those fantasy stories that would still be acceptable to discuss on /lit/ without feeling bad.

>>8457021
has there been any game that tackles debt like this?

>>8456994
>>8457031
>>8457021

Too bad these are videogames and therefore unacceptable to discuss on /lit/.

>>8456994
That's a funny looking Shin Megami Tensei game

>>8457034
i don't know, man. haven't seen anything with the same quality of writing either. the two divers' story from the last act is just fucking perfect.

>>8457045
SMT games would probably serve best as choose your own adventure books where all three endings lead to the same page with a picture of a middle finger pointed at the reader

drakengard. If you somehow managed to invoke that mood with a book.

but seriously

nobel prize is swedish

>>8457092
are you memeing?

>>8457102
Yes sorry :)

>>8457061
Exactly, which is why SMT is the only lit approved series of games (not including King of Dragon Pass)

>>8456994
playing deus ex right now for the first
actually a lot of fun didnt think I'd still enjoy a game from that era/10

outta my way peasants

>>8457144
No game has matched Deus Ex in the "your choices have consequences" department.
I first played it in my early teens, it made me hopeful for a future of gaming that never arrived.

>>8457088

I still think this is out generation's Invisible Man.

Did you watch the Ross's Dungeon episode?

>>8457149
this could be a decent novel if the writing would be on bachelor's route level of quality. haruspex and changeling routes are rushed turds.

>>8456994
i alwas tought the universe of this one will make a great literature experience, its so crazy anarchist and awsome.

genre novel coming through

>>8457189
Really nice.

>>8456994

>>8457041
>disregarding whole mediums

>>8457016
>>8456994
>>8457031
>>8457149
>>8457189

If these games were a book, they would be one of the numberless sci-fi/fantasy trash paperbacks that grace the shelves of Barnes & Noble. As narrative video games they are on top of their genre, but in the end the actual "prose", style, and stories have been done to death for over 200 years.

Where video games excel is when they forget about emulating other mediums and provide a lush and visual world built through beautiful art and atmosphere that you can explore, hence the excellence of Myst in its time, the infinity engine games including torment, the Souls games, and sandbox games like Crusader Kings 2. They provide experiences of exploration and interactivity that cannot be provided by a book or movie, hence their excellence within the genre.

But if you think any of the books in this thread could stand on their own as pure narrative and prose, to say nothing of getting a major literary award, you are out of your mind.

This, though he'd have to out-Burroughs Burroughs and tear down writing until only its purest, most immediate form remains - actually managing to do what he did with film-making in literature is one of my great hopes.

"Imagine an eye unruled by man-made laws of perspective, an eye unprejudiced by compositional logic, an eye which does not respond to the name of everything but which must know each object encountered in life through an adventure of perception."

From the begginning of Metaphors on Vision

>>8457024
I think I read the VA was instructed to be as deadpan as possible to leave it to the player to decide the emotion behind each line.
It didn't always work out but if this is the case there was at least some good intention behind it.

DE remains one of my favourite games of all time.

>>8456994

>>8457275
Trying too hard m8

>>8457309

I've just watched the beginning of dog man star
this guy is very good I had no idea

What this guy said, basically >>8457275

Torment wouldn't stand out as a novel. As much as I love the game and (sometimes) its medium, it is only considered superb because videogames are generally ill suited for literary depth, yet Torment somehow manages to deliver an experience that's far above the average. In the same way, a choose your own adventure book will never be as exhilarating as Torment because videogames are able to tackle interactivity a lot better than books.

Btw, I honestly believe the Souls games (plus Bloodborne, damn, especially Bloodborne) are the best example of how to explore the unique possibilities of a medium - action, systems and storytelling interlocking in a cohesive way

>>8457370
trying too hard.

Not even meming. I dont think itd be a great american novel or a nobel winner or anything but I definitely see some kind of literary merit in this game. Maybe if it was written by the same pynchon that wrote gravity's rainbow or inherent vice. Theres some credence to the metaphor of robbing banks=making films. It kinda reminds me, at the risk of triggering /lit/'s autists, of moby dick.

>>8457275
if you think myst is a powerful example of video game storytelling you're so out of touch that everything else you said has no meaning

>>8457186
It's actually a very neutered version of the Incal, a comic by Moebius (who helped on the visual design of Fifth Element) and Jodorowsky (that crazy chilean dude who made those movies).

The Incal itself is a turning down the crazy of Jodo's script for Dune, which seemed to be legit batshit. There's a documentary about it called Jodorowsky's Dune but I haven't watched it yet.

>>8457398
YE

Stanley Parable was pretty Kafkaesque and very post-modern

Thanks for tickling my funny bone anons.

>>8457412
gta games suffer from EVERY CHARACTER IS QUIRKY and of course the over-saturation of action scenes

Batman. Really, it would be masterpiece.

>>8457370
unironically this
what the Coens brought to this in cinematic form, if translated back into novel form, would be exhilarating and amazing

same with any of Fincher's adaptations. If you could translate the atmosphere, tension, and characterization of Dragon Tattoo back into the novel it would be fucking amazing

can't think of a sci-fi that beats Deus Ex. Neuromancer is up there though

bloodborne baybeeeeeee fuck yeah

>>8457590
thats the hillbilly guy
and theres nothing wrong with that

>>8457615
>thats the hillbilly guy
No, it's every character and every scene
there's ONE straight guy per game.

so deep

>>8457172

the guys at ice pick lodge did admit to that. they gon give it better treatment in the remake.

>>8457362
The abbreviation is DX, nerd

>>8457590
But its a self aware oversaturation to the point of self parody. Also Trevor was a decently nuanced character

>>8457635
well yeah, gta is a satire, but it just gets too much for me sometimes. pacing please.

>>8457641
This is true

>>8456994

The joe rogan show would be great as a book. If someone really good wrote it in a deconstructive way

>>8457628
Is this actually good? I was debating buying it

>>8457412
Unfunny, generic passing-the-torch pulp saga.

>>8457149
>>8457172
I tried this game (the HD version) but I can just barely manage to even play it
that fucking movespeed and complete lack of questmarkers
I got the walkthrough (the original that was their website is gone, so took a while to find that), but then never bothered to look it up
apparently the original english translated (HD has a new one) is far more interesting, because it's so broken that it has a mystical quality
pretty interesting game, I enjoyed my little time with it

>>8457691
It's basically just Snatch if snatch was a parody on american culture.

I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream

>>8457706
But I really like Snatch :(

>>8457706
gta LONDON 2 electric boogalo when?

>>8457712
If you did you should like GTA V too.

>>8457669
no

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ-xcgBL1mY

>>8457412
GTA has no intelligence, it's not satire because it refuses to take a moral stand at it's core
it's all just a bit "whatever"

Since you faggots don't consider manga as literature

>>8457722
>it's not satire because it refuses to take a moral stand at it's core
But it explicitly does take stands. for example there's an anti-torture speech by trevor. Also the radio stations make fun of liberal and conservative viewpoints, and it makes fun of modern vanity culture. A satire doesn't need to take a side anyways, that is entirely irrelevant to the term

>>8457733
that speech is hollow garbage and satire absolutely needs to be moralistic, otherwise it becomes parody, which is basically pandering

>>8457739
How is it hollow garbage? and does the quality of the moralizing matter too now? No, that's not what defines satire, and it's not mutually exclusive with parody

>>8457749
because it is inconsistent with the rest of the game, and not just because of the non-canon inbetween missions stuff. GTA never mounts a serious critique of a society driven by mindless pleasure, but indulges in it, you might say that they comment on this themselves, but thats no excuse. any pretense to it is just wallpaper

>>8457777
>because it is inconsistent with the rest of the game
There's nothing in the rest of the game that goes against it.

>>8457731
looks cute

Garage: Bad Dream Simulator would be the most amazing novel if it could be nailed

>>8457585
Really? I agree that The Stanley Parable is definitely postmodern, but I always felt that it was trying way too hard and was filled with too many ideas to say anything really meaningful about the nature of games. I think Metal Gear Solid 2 is a much more effective and subtle example of postmodernism in video games, and is far less up it's own ass about it.

I'm just going to post morrowind because it's a great video game and beautiful world to explore.

It would make a shit book though.

uncharted

>>8458228
It would be a TERRIBLE book, but it is a good game. I think that's the case for a lot of things here. Games and books are vastly different mediums, and what might be brilliant storytelling in one might be terrible and boring in the other (the Souls series, for example, are games that rely on player interactivity to establish it's tone, atmosphere, and depth).

I think perhaps something like Deus Ex could work as a novel, but for the most part, the games with the best storytelling are usually the ones that would make for less than stellar books. ICO is a perfect example, since it was actually made into a book. The game is a work of art that utilizes the medium in order to draw the player into it's world and form a connection with the protagonists. The novel is pretty boring and cliche and simply gives us the basic plot and events from the game along with some added exposition and backstory that ruin the mystique of much of the game's setting and atmosphere.

>>8458038
it's kinda depressing tbqh

>>8457438

are you fucking retarded m8. read what he said again. if you still don't understand, get off the literature board.

>>8456994
my dude 99% of games are substanceless michael bay rollercoasters deus ex being a very strong example

>>8458389
even on the premise of art and atmosphere, myst is nothing special.

>>8458393

when did I say anything about art and atmosphere jesus fucking christ you people are terrible at reading and argument i don't care about myst and it's stupid story, art, or atmosphere, i just can't stand to see arrogant morons blatantly misreading an argument

>>8458409

>it's

you are dumb

>>8458409
How is that not what the other person was implying? that it excelled in those areas.

>>8458393
>in its time

When Myst came out there was a fucking line at every library computer to see it.

>>8458447
By that logic the davinci mystery is the toppest tier of lit

>>8458450
Are you talking about the Da Vinci Code? It is nothing like that. Myst was something different that noone had ever seen, because of the artwork and immersive environment presented was a completely different experience for the general public. Anyone who says otherwise probably wasnt alive at the time, which I suspect you werent. Judged by immersive games nowadays Myst is pretty boring, but it was something special.

>>8458413
*your dum

:^)

>>8458456
>Anyone who says otherwise probably wasnt alive at the time, which I suspect you werent
it wasn't even that long ago senpai, get over yourself. and no, it was not groundbreaking, it was just the first of its type to get as much marketing

>>8457275
the amount of effort put into this post

>>8457651
>deconstructive
nigger please stop

>>8457741
such a good game

>>8457731
I'd agree with this. I haven't read much manga, though, so I don't know exactly how it compares to the rest of the stuff out there

>>8457016
It would be something like Atomsk.

>>8456994
I love Deus Ex but most of its value is derived from other games being incredibly shit.

>>8458440

holy fuck you're goddamn stupid

>>8457003
This.

Deus Ex is good because of the format. If it wasn't a videogame, It would probably be like those shitty action thrillers they sell in airports.

>>8458552
>It would be something like Atomsk.
how did atomsk predict the entire state of society near flawlessly? with reference to specific event such as the fall of the twin towers to terror attacks?

>>8457275
It's painfully obvious to people who have spent a lot of years playing video games and exploring the medium that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Let me just say one thing - Planescape: Torment in a book form would be able to rival some of the classics, but it's obvious it's better to stay as a game, because as a game, it has visuals and interaction (picking your questions and answers, how you will fight the enemies etc). In the end, it's best to stay how it is. Video games can be respectable on their own, and I am not talking about cringy and shitty stuff like Bioshock Infinite, Witcher etc, but about specific video games which I'd divide into three categories
>those which have god-tier design and gameplay, with little to no effort put into story, and maybe even the music
Examples: Yoshi's Island, Metal Slug 3, Battletoads
These are considered by a lot of people the only games which can stand up to the other mediums because gameplay is, after all, the most unique thing a video game has.
>those which have god-tier writing and little gameplay, which at times, isn't that good
Examples: Planescape: Torment, Sam & Max: Hit the Road, Hotel Dusk
The hardest games to get into, because the previous category, even though it has amazing design and gameplay, can be played by children who will not appreciate all that at all. (there are some exceptions though).
cont.

>>8459037
>Planescape: Torment in a book form would be able to rival some of the classics

>>8459042
That's also where I stopped reading.

>>8459037
cont.
The games in this category are not appreciated enough and are hated by a lot of the younger crowd, but also the older too, partially because they don't like to read almost at all (I despise people who only play video games and don't indulge themselves in some other medium too, reading being the most important one to me, and one which separates the intelligent people from the ones that are not, simply because you need to have a vivid imagination, patience, knowledge and appreciation of words and prose etc), partially because they just want to play action-packed stuff without appreciation for more slower, but sublime things. Not a lot of these kinds of games exist nowadays.
>those which have both amazing gameplay and amazing writing
The best category in my opinion, but rarely does a game hit both spots (in today's time, a lot of games have mediocre gameplay and a story so bad it makes you cringe if you saw quality stories).
Examples: Deus Ex, Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective, TESIII: Morrowind
Second-tier examples (writing which is great, but not serious or on the level of the previous tier): Metal Gear Solid 3, Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, Divine Divinity (an obscure pick, maybe I'm biased, but the world-building in it is amazing)

>>8459042
Yes. I am not saying it can beat Ulysses, or The Brothers Karamazov or some other masterpieces, but it's better than all of YA fiction by a long shot, plus stuff like 1984, Fahrenheit 451, To Kill a Mockingbird etc.

This is what we do, this is who we are
We're Dobis Pr, We're Dobis Pr!

>>8459059
Can we stop the Catcher in the Rye and 1984 are bad memes

They're not high art but holy shit you're comparing them to a video game

>>8459065
I never said those books are bad, but they're not even half as good as Planescape: Torment.
And fuck off, you didn't even read anything I posted except the last sentence.
Video games can be as good as certain books, and DEFINITELY are better than a lot of books (outside of the untouchable masterpieces like Ulysses).
If you hate this so much, at least realize that gameplay is unique to video games and if executed correctly can create artistic works. Battletoads for the NES is a real work of art.

>>8457021
You are dead on.

>>8459078
You haven't actually given reasons why it has a good story or writing.

>>8457021
Totally agree, the only video game I actually consider as art.

>>8459087
What do you want me to fucking say, you numbskull? The themes the game deals with, how it's executed, how the choices actually matter and the interactivity isn't wasted or unused, the writing, the well-made setting, the soundtrack which follows all of this, how about you play the fucking game for yourself? How about you develop an opinion of your own instead of parroting the shit you see on 4chan every day?

>>8459037
Planescape: Torment is great but do you really think it says or explores the theme of death any deeper than Phaedo? And it's a thousands years old work.

>>8459101
Nice deflection, but yes, I want you to explain how it is good. If you don't, I'm going to assume you can't.

>>8459108
>but do you really think it says or explores the theme of death any deeper than Phaedo?
Of course not, as I said, it doesn't trump all of literature, but with some cases it's painfully obvious, stuff like 1984 or Brave New World.
Also it's pretty much unfair to compare anything outside of literature to Plato, it just can't hold up.
>And it's a thousands years old work.
The work isn't outstanding because of its age, but because of its writing.

>>8459113
You're really pathetic.

>>8459117
>Also it's pretty much unfair to compare anything outside of literature to Plato, it just can't hold up.

It's just the only written work whose theme closely relates to the game I can think of, which is how books and videogames should be compared imo.

>>8459127
I get you, but surely there are more works in literature which have similar themes.

>>8459117
>You're really pathetic.
No, you are. You think you can get away with assertions when you are so superior? All that you have done is jumped on the scene and starting flinging shit, and then you get angry when someone asks you to explain yourself. I can form my own opinions, hearing or reading other people's opinions is part of that.

>>8459127
PT tackles a very delicate and deep theme so the obvious written parallel it's going to have very high standards. E.g. a typical post-apocalyptical videogame won't have such a 'classic' counterpart.

>>8457647
>>8457309
>>8457083
>>8457021
These are the best in the thread.

My contribution would be Jean Luc Godard's Tout La Bien.

>>8459135
I have written a wall of text explaining how things are, and given you a few reasons why Planescape: Torment is great. Where are your arguments?

So, what I've gathered from this thread is that I should play Kentucky Route Zero.

Shame I didn't pick the fucker up when it was on sale. Bastard.

>>8459145
No you haven't. You have just identified certain elements and stated that they are good.

>>8459037
why is witcher cringey shit? this review does a pretty good job of noting some of the merits of witchers storytelling. I feel like it gets most of its criticism from being popular. It is worlds above its contemporaries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQHsmiFJqJc

>>8459180
I understand why you'd think it gets criticized because it's popular, but it makes no sense, for example, Morrowind is one of those games which has amazing writing, but it's popular. Maybe not popular with the kids who don't even know the TES series exists, save for Skyrim, but you can't deny it's a popular game.

>>8456994
The Final Deletion angle involving the Hardyz

>>8459188
morrowind isn't as well written as the witcher series though. it has some damn good mythology and lore, but that's about it, when it comes to characters and literary inspiration it's not nearly as well crafted

>>8457021
>magic realism
Go read some latinamericans and you will find something similar.

>>8457669
just pirate it man

>>8459156
Basically every internet argument is like that. I'm not him btw, but everytime someone asks for an explanation of why X is good/bad, they resort to listing shit + adjective, because that's all they can do.
You too wouldn't be able to explain why something is good, I'm pretty sure about that.
Try to explain why 1984 has better writing than P:T like you wanted him to do

pro-tip: it's impossible.

Lately I thought about how easy it would be to make a text adventure adaptation of Blood Meridian. You break down the book scene by scene and write additional failstates.

The volcano scene would be a good puzzle. And command "spit" quicksaves the game

>>8458228
>>8458265
>implying delving into an ancient prophecy, webs of secrecy, and becoming (maybe) the reincarnation of a murdered friend and lover taking his revenge wouldn't be amazing

you'd need some rewrites here and there and it'd have to be very well written and add a dash of post-modernism but it could be done

>>8459078
lol kiddo PST is RL Salvatore tier

>>8459285
It's funny because RL Salvatore has had much more success writing books and gets critically slammed whenever he tries to write for vidya. It's almost like generic blockbuster vidya has higher standards than generic blockbuster genre-fiction.

It would be something like "the little prince", but with more lore and focused in teenagers.
It would set a standard of literature for teenagers certainly, not nobel price winner though.

No one has said MGS2, System Shock 2, or Serial Experiments Lain yet?

MGS2 had a great story that predicted and eluded to a lot of the information frenzy happening today with botnet and censorship.

SS2 just has great atmosphere that if translated to literature could create something special. Especially for the ending.

Lain would be difficult to translate to literature in my opinion, but could have turned into a great schizophrenic type novel. Maybe something like Naked Lunch

>>8459346
>lain

Oh man, that would be an interesting one.

>>8457153
The new deus ex games are pretty great desu
And system shock 3 and prey 3 are coming out so they might be as good as the og deus ex

>>8457571
It's already a book dumbass

>>8459346
>MGS2 had a great story
It had an interesting premise which was poorly implemented, at most. Koyima was trying to eat more than he could chew with that one, and that's why the game flopped so badly.

MGS3 would make an excellent historical fiction novel though. Translating ocelot to prose would be hard to pull.

>>8459346
>MGS2
Someone has, though

And, of course, an example from TV bitch!

>>8457709
Not a fucking game it was originally a book

>>8459383
It would be entertaining at best. Not nobel price winner or a classic.

I think the soulsborne games could be good
Not as books/novels tho
But like short poems that are as vauge and cryptic as the games

>>8457709
Anon plz

>>8459394
>didn't understand Fly

>>8459424
Would you care to explain it to me? And how that episode in particular would make a BB book a nobel price winner? Because the way I see it the series is entertaining, but not nobel price winner tier good.

BEEP BEEP BEST SPACE OPERA COMING THROUGH

>>8456994
>deus ex
>not the objectively superior dark souls

>>8457153
if you only look at the explicit things, then yes

>>8459150
its $12.50 on GOG right now

>>8459407
oh thats a really wonderful idea there. never thought about that

Not necessarily as acclaimed as OP's parameters, but I would love a written prequel to The Talos Principle.

Listening to that one doctor girl speak in her logs throughout the game, as well as various bits of emails and philosophical texts in the computer terminals gave the game such a brilliant underlying narrative other than you're an AI solving puzzles and maybe or maybe not finding your way out.

>>8459037
witcher was a polish book before being a videogame

>>8459233
Will criticism ever recover?

>>8459037
>Babby's: First Exploration of Death in a book form would be able to rival some of the classics

>>8459285
>>8459296
rekt

>>8460437
Uh, polish what exactly?

>>8460883
book

>>8456994

It would be a lesser David Icke conspiracy pulp at best

>>8461250
There's not a single sci-fi book that holds up to Deus Ex, so what makes you think that?

>>8461327
because that's what it is, a bunch of illuminati popcorn garbage. in fact, labeling it a run of the mill David Icke book is completely accurate since it touches a bit on his ravings but never goes into much detail.

I suggest you either read the better of its genre or fuck off back to >>>/v/

>>8461327
>There's not a single sci-fi book that holds up to Deus Ex

>>8461327
>There's not a single sci-fi book that holds up to Deus Ex

>>8459059
A note on Planescape:Torment

It is very good, yes. As a video game it works because it was specifically designed to invert a ton of tropes that are unique to RPG games. As a book, it would be significantly worse. The interactivity of the medium is central to why Planscape:Torment is good. It accomidates a huge spectrum of play styles and that cannot be transferred to any other medium.

As for other video games that have merit as artistic works I'll identify a few.

Silent Hill 2: Mainly the concept of a nighmare world that is subjective to the individual problems and insecurities of the people that are damned to it. As for the actual writing in the game, it's actually pretty bad. If they had better writiers/voice actors the game would be perfect psychological horror. The atmosphere is very well defined and the place where the game excells.

MGS2: This is mainly just because of how it plays with the medium. Kojima is essentially the only person playing with audience expectations and brechtian distancing. I just wish he was a better writer and that his plots were such utter and complete nonsense.

>>8457021
KRZ is very good. Probably the top of the point and click art games.

>>8461368
>>8461355
name one

>>8458608
Atomsk is about a Soviet closed city which were unknown to the west until the end of the USSR's existence. The book was written really not long after the first closed cities were built. Which in itself is spooky. There are other substantial similarities (the man who is the real weapon (like JC) must gain entrance to the closed city (a few levels are like this but most obviously Area 51) to stop another weapon (the nanovirus and/or the AI and/or humanity itself)).

Deus Ex mostly stuck in vague references to things that have tended to happen before a lot. The twin towers thing was purely because they couldn't fit them into a New York skyline because of memory constraints. The statue of liberty still has her head too. It was very well thought out, like that team really got how games should fit together, but the writing is just a step beyond cartoon villain writing really. Alan Moore had a good explanation of character depth: 1 dimensional is like superman, he does good things because he is good; 2 dimensional is like Spiderman, he tries to do good things but doesn't always want to; real character depth comes when you get beyond those things like duty or morality and actually focus on the person. Deus Ex straddles 2 dimensional and full depth p much.

Consider for a second that the modern BBC Sherlock Holmes didn't have to change shit like Watson coming back from a war in Afghanistan. It's not spooky because there are often wars in Afghanistan. This is a lot like spooky Deus Ex presience. It is masterfully vague tho, like you don't get much info on the middle eastern terrorism.

>>8461497
>but the writing is just a step beyond cartoon villain writing really
>spiderweb of connections similar to actual modern powerstructures
>cartoon villain

>>8461512
>>8461497
also the motive of the twin tower making it in is not really relevant, the fact of the matter is, they wrote it in that the twin towers fell to terrorism. that's not vague, that's specific.

>>8461515
>it was terrorism is specific
No it's really not.

>>8458475
You're just like those kids who started playing games in 2008 and claim Half Life is overrated shit. You're the sort of asshole who thinks Don Quijote is not funny because the only comedy you know is Adventure Time, Eric Andre and memes.

>>8461512
>>spiderweb of connections similar to actual modern powerstructures
this is a recurring theme in literature, and not necessarily good literature

and it's not like Deus Ex foretold this stuff several decades ago as is sometimes the case in sci-fi, you're talking about the year 2000 when most of this structures were already in place

Deus Ex is a masterpiece but the story and writing is a tiny part of what makes it great. Its systems and how willing it is to provide the player with agency are far, far more relevant to it

>>8461572
not the guy you're replying to but I was around at the time of Myst's release and although it was a hit and unique game in its own, remarkable way, it got a lot of shit for being boring game and filled with nonsensical puzzles.

Half-Life was a masterpiece

>>8461572
Again, it wasn't even that long ago. I was playing a decade before it and at the time it was entry level. My issue with it is that it DIDN'T hold up at its time, it was the COD of adventure games

Legacy of Kain has great purple prose.

>>8459186
Tfw you grew up in Essex County

>>8461232
is that just a book on different polishes or something?

>>8458456
>Myst was something different that noone had ever seen, because of the artwork and immersive environment presented was a completely different experience for the general public.
This p much. Myst was like the reverse of Doom on so many levels, and one of those were these amazing static visuals.

>>8461707
It really is great. Especially the delivery which puts it in a class of its own.

>>8462441
I think he meant Polish

>>8461576
>>8461595
>it got a lot of shit for being boring game and filled with nonsensical puzzles
This is another thing on how come Deus Ex was good. The puzzles were physical, and even what constituted a puzzle was based upon how you wanted to develop the character or play or just generally interact with the environment. There was a tendency at the time (and even now with games like Skyrim) where it was a bit like "use your OCD and autism to tidy up the objects and something something magic puzzle solved!", whereas with Deus Ex and half life had a bunch of objects you could use in all sorts of crazy ways. And the environments were like sandboxes, really non linear.

Now it seems like sandbox games suffer from being "go to work but like cool" simulators (nearly everything is "go here and then go here" with very very little playaround) and RPGs have mostly gone back to being incredibly linear.

>>8462492
Bonus point to it being near impossible in the current industry. Nothing that dramatic with that kinda mood could be created in the current industry.

>>8457741
MINIGUN

KREHKREEEEEEHKREEHKREEEH

>>8460437
>>8460883
>>8461232
>>8462441
>>8462512
M Y S I D E S

The souls games are already great literature hidden in a game
I would buy a picture book full of item descriptions desu

>>8461441
Solaris, Dune, Book of the new sun, the list could go on ;)

>>8462720
Book of the new sun is more alternative fiction, isn't it? either way, none of those are even close to Deus Ex, be it in dramatic impact and structure, or in insight into culture and the human psyche. It might have been too deep for you, don't feel bad.

>>8456994
>more insight into Stansfield's character
>reading about an extended version of Leon and Mathilda's complicated relationship inb4 somebody recommends me to Lolita, here's your (You)
>all with Leon as the main person of the story, receiving more information about his daily life

I would buy it in a heartbeat.

>this hasn't been posted yet

>>8463899
Never played this
Isn't it like an insanely complicated deus ex?

>>8463899
>YOU GAIN BROUZOUF

>>8457708

>implying that fucking massive backstory in the manual isnt already a novel

I forget how long it was but it was pretty extensive

>>8463139
Are you implying Lolita wasn't a good book?

>>8463955
Its more confusing than complicated.

>>8463978
my novel aspires to have the same mise en scene as in bruges, where the most minute of things have major consequences and all of it feels natural

>>8457397
>Bloodborne
can this meme die
it's baby's first Lovecraft-style world that is "so deep" because it doesn't explain shit

>action, systems and storytelling interlocking in a cohesive way
stop memeing

Fucking Far Cry 3 understood better its medium and was much more clever about the relationship between the player and the work

>>8464078
are you implying it was?

>putting a largely patched together lore in item descriptions is the height of video games storytelling

Soulsfags...

>>8456994
Dark Souls

>>8457149

Have you never read The Plague by Camus?

>>8457275
>>8457397
>>8458265
>>8459407
>>8459555
>>8462708
>>8464347
>I never experienced something like Dark Souls so that means it's the best thing ever
it's pretentious generic world building that pretends frustrating storytelling renders it complex
Every decently made game has a Lore bible, most just don't think it's enough to carry a work
The only saving grace of these things is the decent combat system

Might be a boring answer, but the Dark Souls series.

>>8457275 was right, although he didn't go far enough.

Any game which could be translated to a good work of literature is a bad videogame.

For example: Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen. It has an amazing story. Definitely could be translated to decent literature, and would probably be one of the go-to works /SFFG/fags would point to when accused of genrefaggotry. But that's a bad thing. It means the gameplay wasn't an integral part of the "story" (story here meaning "everything that isn't pure mechanics", including atmosphere and feeling). Dark Souls, by comparison, would make for a shit book. A really, really shit one. Because the act of playing it is fundamental to its story.

But that goes beyond the actual narrative, like I said. One Finger Death Punch has no story, but the atmosphere and feeling it provokes is God-tier.
>>8464399
>>8464409
REEEEEEEEEEEE

>>8459180
Heart of Stone was it's own thing. Way beyond the other Witcher shit, for the reasons that video goes into.

>>8464417
>implying TW3 doesn't do tons of things like that as well

>>8464431
Yep.

>>8464395
pathologic did it better

>>8464433
bad implication.
>>8464413
>But that's a bad thing. It means the gameplay wasn't an integral part of the "story"
this is such bullshit. A game isn't beholden to telling a story a certain way or taking advantage of certain elements. Just like a book doesn't need to rely on prose and a movie doesn't need to have great cinematography, a great narrative can transcend such shortcomings and there's nothing wrong with that. Besides, even by giving you the controller, regardless of agency, they have already cheated a few layers of immersion off you.

>>8464445
You misunderstood what I meant when I said it was a bad videogame. It might be better to say that it's bad at being a videogame.

And I'm definitely not talking about immersion.

>>8464450
I don't agree with the premise that one way of doing a videogame is better than another as long as it provokes a certain insight, experience or feeling to a satisfactory degree.

>>8464464
Why?

>>8464466
Because that's arbitrary. It seems pretty autistic to me to have a "right" way to do it, it's limiting.

>>8463980
great movie

>>8464475
>Because that's arbitrary.
But it's not.

It is better at being a videogame because the act of playing it involves everything within it. It conforms to the purpose and benefits of games. This is opposed to slapping good story and good gameplay together, DD style.

It kind of sounds like you just took a hatred of BADWRONGFUN autists too far.

my life desu

>>8464480
I'm still not seeing the point here, If a less balanced version of this serves your vision better, then why not? Again, this is just like insisting that all movies should have great cinematography and great story, when excelling in one point might often be better.
media = method
method = the path to realising your vision. Why would you conform to method in any way that doesn't further your vision? you owe nothing to vidya or literature, their feelings won't get hurt that you don't use them in a classical sense

>>8464078
My bad. I wrote that post at about 2 in the morning, I should've clarified: I own Lolita but I haven't read it yet, hence the inb4. The first page gives me a good feeling about the general prose of the book.

But overall, I can't say if it is a good /lit/ or not.

>>8464486
>If a less balanced version of this serves your vision better, then why not?
Because it won't suit your vision better.

I'm saying the prose should fit the themes and plot, basically. And vice versa (obviously). You can say "well why should it?", and the answer is "because it fits better".

Of course all movies should have great cinematography and great story. Why would you want it to have bad cinematography? That doesn't make sense.

In other words, if using the medium doesn't obey your vision, you're using the wrong medium.

>>8464491
do you really think dragons dogma would have been better in another medium?

>>8464494
No. I think its whole message works best in an interactive medium (that's the point). I think the gameplay could/should have been changed to suit the story better. Or the story for the gameplay. Like I said; they're both good, just not integrated.

Not to say nothing is integrated. The pawns, even just in concept, show that.

>>8464500
Fair enough, specifically I don't agree that implementing the story into the gameplay is necessarily better, there are certain effects to both, but more agency or interactivity doesn't mean better. I think dragons dogma limiting that severely serves the themes of the game very well. If anything I feel a lot of the systems were pretty clumsy and could have been removed, like those servant thingies.

>>8464514
Those servant thingies were a massive part of the game. You know, the whole free-will thing? They definitely could have been handled better (they were clumsy), but they were still implemented pretty well, and it without a doubt would be worse if they were removed.

Implementing the story into the gameplay is necessarily better at being a videogame, because instead of a game with non-game story attached, it's all the same thing (i.e. it's all videogame). In other words, DD's story-gameplay system is clumsy.

>>8464523
no, not implementing it into gameplay invokes certain experiences, lack of agency is a storytelling mechanism, and a reader of a book will never think "why can't I do X?"

>>8464528
Implementing lack of agency in the right ways, at the right time, is what I'm saying is good.

Just having a gameplay system and a story and thoughtlessly slapping them together is what I'm saying is bad.

In other words, a story which is well written does not equal a good videogame. It equals a story which is well written. It must be integrated with the gameplay to be a good videogame. The stuff you are talking about seems to support this viewpoint, though I may be wrong.

Calvary, the film. The writing is humorous and dark, but its deeper, spiritual points are beautiful. Watching it feels as though you're reading a classic

>>8464534
>It equals a story which is well written. It must be integrated with the gameplay to be a good videogame.
If it's a good experience it's a good video game, maybe not ideal, but that's besides the point

>>8464538
It is a good experience, or whatever. Not a good videogame.

>>8464399
yeah you already made it blindingly obvious that your experience with it is minimal. git gud and play it again

>Planescape faggot still hasn't explained why he likes it so much by providing actual examples

>>8464741
>Some faggot is still butthurt about an argument he had online hours ago

>>8459267
Underrated post of the year

>>8464751
I only started reading this thread now, expecting him (you) to elaborate, but he (you) just threw a hissy fit and started calling the other guy pathetic for no reason
>video game fanboys

>>8464777
S A L T Y

>>8464779
Man, you just keep looking dumber with every post

>>8464789
Here's your (you)

I just wanna know what people think about Pathologic but you guys are too pleb apparently

>>8464817
it's great. and people have mentioned pathologic

>>8464821
I know but it's just a couple posts and they said very little about it

>>8456994
This was Mass Effect, years before Mass Effect was a thing.
Sadly they rushed release and it got a number of bad review as there were a lot of game glitches. Had they just dropped the ambitious new game design and made this into books it would have done very well. It even had some star power added (read find print).

>>8458265
>>8459117

>Vidya better than BNW

You didn't even understand that BNW.

>>8464491
I used to think like that, that a game fundamentally had to be balanced and gameplay had to be fair for it to be a good experience
That was until one year ago when I bought Cloudbuilt
>inb4 shilling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5_ETNBRlbc
Basically it's a 3D platformer with a jetpack, wallruns, dashes, turrets
The story framing all of this is that of an injured soldier named Demi (because she lost limbs gettit?) who is kept in bed as her mind goes through these gauntlets (possibly created by doctors) and the whole thing is preparing her for physical reeducation
There are a number of gameplay choices that would be infuriating in any other game, and they still are there, but they serve the metaphor:
>the level design makes you die on the first tries, you can rarely see where's the next safe zone, where you can stop, so you have to go blind, seeing only two or three jumps forwards. This is profundly unfair but Demi can't know what's next, which muscle will be tested, what will fail her, so she will fall again and again, and you have to learn the layouts as Demi has to get accustomed to the exercises
>you have lives (which only Nintendo sticks with somehow) but here they represent Demi physical stamina, she can't just go at a level (an exercise) over and over again because her body will get tired BUT as you finish level and redo them quicker you gain more lives, effectively mirroring her getting more endurant
>the jetpack is tricky to get a hang of BUT it's roughly like getting accustomed to a prosthesis
>enemies will stop your momentum if they manage to shoot or touch Demi, it's basically her body betraying her, sending pain signals that halt her and which you have to learn to endure (tanking the shots) or prepare for (shoot them)

I have to go to the lake so I can't go through all aspects of the metaphor (there are way more) but my point is:
Cloudbuilt is not a fair game, it's an infuriating one but that's great because as you fail, learn, give up, go back after two months, try again, overcome one level, get stuck in another,... you understand what somebody going through rehab might feel
It's an unfair game but it's powerful because of that

doesn't stop speedrunners from getting obsessed with it though, it was also designed with them in mind

>>8457034
Animal Crossing

MGS3 is basically James Bond, and those books already exist. And MGS2 is fucking shit, so this is the next best thing, if it ends properly.

>>8465035
one the best bond themes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aHQnDTd1y4

As long as it doesn't get as retarded as S2, I bet this would be a great book.

Also, are there any books that are similar to this?

>>8465045
>Tyrell cucked
>Angela blacked
>new tryhard FBI lady is best friends with her local cornerstore clerk and smugly asks about his family in arabic while holding up the line for mean racists
I dropped the show the first night of the new season. Has it somehow gotten even worse?

>>8465055
See for yourself famalam

>>8465045
I don't understand why anyone likes this
it is so obviously awful and just cringy

>>8465035
MGS2 is objectively a better written, smarter game than MGS3

>>8465176
No it isn't.

The only appeal of MGS2 is "le unexpected twist of changing the protag of the game xDD"

>>8465187
you're wrong and you're a grotesquely ugly freak.

>>8457731
this would be called a brilliant deconstruction of the Bildungsroman, the anti-Demian or something similar. But anime fans don't read so it's like "Punpun wasn't even relatable but Aiko is my waifu, 7/10.".

>>8465193
yeah, that's why it has a big fanbase of people that hail it as the best thing ever

>>8465052
except it only works as an anime

>>8465201
It could be a book version of the last two episodes. Definitely wouldn't work for EoE or the majority of the series.

>>8465198
yeah but it's just feels-faggots and waifuposters mane

>>8465208
The last two episodes would make for a terrible book. EoE is the true ending as it completes and rounds up the subversion, deconstruction, meta commentary and all the buildup from the series and works best as a critique of its own form

>>8465187
>The only appeal of MGS2 is "le unexpected twist of changing the protag of the game xDD"

Pleb detected.

Nier. And legacy of kain soul reaver

>>8457482
It's worth watching if you enjoy Jodorowsky movies, as well as Dune.

That said, the Lynch movie was actually a better adaptation than what Jodorowsky would have given us, believe it or not.

Much like Lynch's Dune, it would have been a good-great movie, but an awful adaptation of Dune.

>>8456994
First person, from the perspective of Shinji.

Boom, instant classic right there.

>>8465052
>>8465208
EoE already takes heavily (although there are substantial enough differences) from Paul Linebarger's sci fi. That's partly how FLCL also takes the piss out of it by using other Linebarger concepts.

>>8464341
I thought it was enjoyable. It's a pretty good look into how a pedophile might justify his own actions, and the subtext was all well executed.

>>8457016
Predicting 9/11 in 2000 is not the most impressive thing ever

>>8457669
Pirate it. Don't support the Denuvo jew.

>>8463978
I had the misfortune of randomly choosing this movie for a first date. I can't think of a worse movie to watch with someone on a first date. What a depressing fucking garbage movie.

>>8464850
This was actually a fun game but it was the buggiest garbage game I've ever played on a console. I literally used every save file because sometimes they would randomly get wiped.

It also was seen as just another Halo knock off at the time. They should have kept it for another few months and worked out the bugs. Fucking retards man.

Now I will never get to throw bitches out to space and find out what the fuck was on that ice planet again.

>>8466471
Huh. I wouldn't mind this as a date movie

>>8465187
>The only appeal of MGS2 is "le unexpected twist of changing the protag of the game xDD"
If you actually think that it is unironically too deep for you

>>8456994
You're really daft if you think Deus Ex would be as great as a book as it is a video game. Same with Dark Souls.

>>8456994
I love Deus Ex, but at best it would have been "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" tier. One of the best genre pulp has to offer, but not even close to nobel worthy are you fucking kidding me.

Domestic Terrorists, the Illuminati, hyper intelligent omniscient AI? ALL ROLLED INTO ONE. Come on, man.

>>8456994

>nobel prize

MAYbe a Hugo award

i want /v/ to leave

>>8461441
The Eye in the Pyramid basically does a lot of what DX does, better. Plus lots of drugs.

The Foundation Trilogy.

>>8467404
>better.
>The Eye of The Pyramid
>than Deus Ex
Wow, did we play the same game? are you incapable of picking up on subtext? no, it did not do it better

>QWWWAAAAAAA WAAAA GAYMSD ARE ARTTT!"!!!! LOOK AT THIS POLYGON ARTICLE SOMEONE WROTE ABOUT IT WAAAAAAAA
Fuck off /v/

>>8459198
I'm looking forward to the sequel. Wrestlekino at its finest.

>>8459328
>It would be something like "the little prince"
I want to puch you in the fucking teeth.

>>8461572
>It's another "oldfag goes nuts screaming about 'back in my day' and 'your generation doesn't understand anything about true (fill in the blank)!' episode

>>8464817
I fucking love Pathologic. The writing is honestly some of the best in gaming, and the way it explores it's (extremely interesting) themes so uniquely is laudable. Also, the atmosphere is fucking fantastic. It's so oppressive and mysterious and unsettling, there's this Lovecraftian sense of dread that lurks beneath the surface at all times, which makes it a harrowing game to play for extended periods of time.

The gameplay could have used a lot of work (and I'm excited to see how the remake improves upon it) but despite it's clunkiness it manages to convey the game's themes and sense of foreboding remarkably well. It feels like something could go wrong any second, there's never any time to relax, which properly places the player into the mindset of the characters.

Basically it's a flawed masterpiece, with emphasis on masterpiece. I know I must sound like an autistic shill, but I just fucking love Pathologic that much. It's proof that computer games can be as intelligent, thoughtful, and effective as literature. It's also extremely underrated and I hope the remake will improve upon the gameplay enough- without compromising the spirit of the original-to allow more people to experience it.

Also The Void is amazing too.

Rambling absurdist fantasy-realism with interweaving narratives, spanning several continents and 50+ years.

Somewhere between penny-arcade Lewis Carroll and DFW at his most serious.

It's gotta revolve around building a time machine to save Anne Frank. Not stop Hitler, mind you, just save Anne Frank; screw the other 11,999,999.

>>8467340
>Domestic Terrorists, the Illuminati, hyper intelligent omniscient AI? ALL ROLLED INTO ONE. Come on, man.
An older iteration had a neet astronaut too.

>>8469654
>Pathologic
whats so great about it

>>8457309
Shame for you that Joyce already did it almost a century ago.

>>8465162
I feel like it's symbolic of the cinemafication of tv if that makes sense. It's one of the first big tv shows that's committed to using such a stylized aesthetic.
I only saw about half of the first season, but it's pretty clearly cribbing off Fincher, and I think audiences are responding to that.

Berserk, the golden age - hawk of the millennium empire, is some of the greatest sword and sorcery ever put on paper.

>>8457088
>WE DINDU NUFFIN: the album

>>8457144
>>8457153
I'm 18 now so i didn't really live through it but the early 2000s is the best era for gaming. The games were big enough money-making ventures to have ambitious (sometimes too ambitious, but that's really part of the fun) ideas and themes but niche enough that they weren't fundamentally creatively compromised.

I think Oblivion might be simultaneously the last game from that era and a real sign of the decline in terms of pandering to the filthy casuals.

>>8459037
fucking pseuds. whenever videogames try to have traditional literary or artistic merit they fail. The only reason that devs are able to get away with it is that most of the videogame-buying public are philistines like you who think that planescape or the last of us is some deep shit. fucking pleb cunt.

>>8459198
this

>>8457412
I honestly think that you're onto something. There's this feeling I get from playing GTA 5 that Rockstar never quite capitalize on to the fullest extent. The satire is there, but it's surface level at best. The potential for mayhem in terms of story, characters, and set pieces is limited by time and budget restraints. Nevertheless, there's this glimmer of greatness that's easy to detect, but the game's individual parts never coalesce. The novel's limitlessness, I think, provides the perfect medium for bringing the idea of the game to life.

>>8459373
20 pages of descripition of a guy flipping two guns. I need this

>>8459267
make it happen anon