/lit/ - Literature

No, because there is a board for music-related topics.

oh baby baby
yeah yeah yeah
'cause I love you baby
ooooh ooooh yeah
go back to /mu/
'cause you don't belong here
and I don't love you no more
baaaaby

>>812196
...but lyrics aren't music, they're poetry with a melody.

Call it poetry and people will just make fun of your writing, call it lyrics and you'll get flamed for believing that lyrics have any literary value. Either way you probably won't get much help here.

>>812206
Whenever these threads happen, /mu/tards post emo bullshit worse than the poetry in critique threads and say, "Look how deep this is! It's like totally literature, man!" Then someone explains why the bullshit emo lyrics are not poetry, and the /mu/tard gets butthurt. Just go to /mu/ if you want to talk lyrics.

>>812206
No. That's dumb. You're wrong. I am not dissing lyrics, but they are distinct from poetry and properly belong in /mu/. Sorry babe.

There is also a vocal minority on this board that feels that feels that lyrics have literary value so anytime lyrics are mentioned it just turns into a flame war between the two groups.

>>812206
I don't give a damn what middle/high school english teacher said to try to encourage kids to read poetry, lyrics are "poetry set to music" in the same way that a teenager's facebook pics of a party they went to Friday night are "photography in the moment."
Lyricists do not put as much thought or depth into their work because A) it's not meant to be read B) it's sung, not spoken so the words themselves have no rhythm and C) it's set to music, which makes the words easily manipulated to match the rhythm by making the words notes in the melody.
Lyrics are poetry, however, setting them down on a page, and someone reading them (who doesn't know the song) will not experience anything from most of those lyrics. All of the impact and influence of the words came from their use as music. There is a world of difference between poetry and lyrics.

time / why you punish me? / like a wave crashing into a shore / you wash away my dreams / time / why you walk away? / like a friend left with somewhere to go / you left me cryin'."

What do you guys think, next big hit? y/n

>>812222
i'm not saying all lyrics are great writing. in fact, i think most are horrible shit.

an example of what i consider to be great writing:

is it the rising roof-line that makes me feel so swallowed whole, or the way my body barely pricks the sky? the same as a century's-worth of virgin's blood passed through my longing veins, scheming to convince my aching mind that pleasure has nothing on the miracle of need.

if you don't think this qualifies as decent, i'll delete the thread.

You SING lyrics. You READ or SPEAK poetry. Lyrics, by their very use (singing, a type of instrumentation), are notes to a musical piece.

>>812238
"progressive screamo"

>>812234
This is possibly the best argument I've heard on the topic. Most poetry follows a set rhythm that lyrics lack, but free form poetry exists and is respected as well so the argument isn't exactly sound in the end.

>>812249
it's one example. pretend you don't know it's from a band, and that you're just reading something that somebody wrote.

>>812234

Reminds me of something my Latin professor said...

All poetry is musical, but not all music is poetry

>>812250
You're overlooking my final point about impact and influence of the words as musical vs. the words as poetic forms, then. That was my argument concerning free/blank verse.

>>812263
>>812234
i think you're completely correct.
but can you really say that there are NO lyricists that put the same amount of effort into their lyrics as does a poet into his poetry?

>>812237
Pleaes delete this thread. These lyrics are bad if read as poetry.

Read more real poetry and you will realize why this doesn't qualify as anything approaching "good."

>>812263
I'll agree that out of their original context isn't the best way to experience them but to say that you couldn't be moved by any lyrics on the pages is shit. There definitely are lyricists who put as much time and effort into their lyrics as any poet puts into their poetry. Also some poetry is meant to be spoken and doesn't make it's full impact on the page yet is still respected as poetry, as some lyrics should be.

Not OP here.

The thing we're all forgetting is that /mu/ is a radioactive shithole.

It's like how /tg/ takes in refugees from /v/.

>>812280
i'll delete it if you explain to me why they're bad, rather than just stating a biased opinion.

>>812275
No, I can't say that. But as a general observation, I think that the fact that lyrics are set to music is exactly why they do not have the same impact as poems do. There is a different intent, from the get-go. A lyricist is going to be looking at how to sing the words to evoke emotion or thought. A poet is going to be looking at how to read (or speak, although I find spoken word itself to be very maudlin and overdramatic) the words to evoke emotion or thought. These are two completely different modes of expression for the artist, and internalization for the person experiencing the art. So to say the lyricist goes through same effort is pretty much false, their effort was from its inception different.

>>812293
Well you have to admit that lyricists like John Darnielle from The Mountain Goats or James Mercer from The Shins puts more thought and effort into the effect of their lyrics as poetry than the beach boys or some death metal band.

>>812293
i like you. i think you have an extremely accurate grasp of the argument. my only disagreement is fundamental, in that i have been moved by lyrics many times over without ever hearing the song they belong to. to say that lyrics in the absence of music, if written correctly, can't be on par with poetry in the absence of speech is closed-minded.

>>812305

Exactly. You can have shitty/shallow poetry and good/complex poetry, the same as lyrics. He's saying that the effort and process in creating the two are different.

>>812288
It's a bunch of worthless cliche imagery that would be shitty in a real poem and is shitty in lyrics as well. There's no prosody, meter, or anything poetic about it except for the emotion YOU as the reader bring to it because you've heard the song before.

>>812316
>>812316
But their lyrics can be examined and discussed like poetry, and frankly I think even just on the page still function as poetry if admittedly losing a bit of their panache. As I've said their are spoken poems that lose something when read but they are still respected as poetry, yet somehow because lyrics are sung instead of spoken they are somehow less deserving of respect or discussion.

>>812313
That's not really the fundamental gist of what I'm saying. I do agree with you, that's a close-minded viewpoint. But I very, very rarely have seen lyrics which have this quality. And so I see them as anomalies, exceptions to the rule. There are artists throughout every medium who were able to achieve a transcendence of form. I once watched a graffiti artist who made what he called "life poems," pieces of poems and also lyrics which he scrawled across pavement or bricks on the sides of buildings. This was close to 10 years ago. Anyone on 4chan now is quite familiar with these pieces of art, the most famous being the "Repeat after me: I am free." (a trite piece, but regardless well-known) Now: was this man a poet?
No. No, he wasn't. He was a graffiti artist who extended another form of art into his own work.
A lyricist is the same. They can make something poetic, but this is a display of their talent, not a statement of lyrics' innate poetics.

>>812350
Fucking hell if you would imagine I used the correct forms of their there and they're I would take it as a kindness.

>>812350
People can examine and discuss anything. Anything. This is completely a side-issue in a debate of lyrics' literary merit.

Dug up a fifth of Hood River gin
That stuff tastes like medicine
But I'll take it
It'll do

On the couch in the living room all day long
Music on the television playing our song
And I'm in the mood
The mood for you

Turn the volume up real high
All of that money look at it fly
And you smoking like a chimney
Shadows crawled across the living room's length
I held onto you with a desperate strength
With everything with everything in me
And I handed you a drink of the lovely little thing
On which our survival depends
People say friends don't destroy one another
What do they know about friends?

Thunderclouds forming cream white moon
Everything's going to be okay soon
Maybe tomorrow
Maybe the next day

Carried you up the stairs that night
All of this could be yours if the price is right
I heard cars headed down to oblivion
Up on the expressway
Your drunken kisses as light as the air
Maybe everything that falls down eventually rises
Our house sinking into disrepair
Ah but look at this showroom filled with fabulous prizes

>>812384
I think that has literary merit even without the music, you don't agree?

>>812350
I wouldn't say they're less deserving of respect or discussion. But they are their own topic of respect and discussion. I will often think of lyrics, and think of the power and passion in which they were sang, and this is a great credit to the singer/lyricist. What they did was an amazing work of art. But it is not poetry. My point in that regard is more a "credit where credit is due" kind of thing. If you try to make lyrics poetry, you are discrediting what made the lyrics great: a man or woman pouring their heartfelt life into singing it with beauty and passion.

Anyone that thinks poetry and song lyrics are equal hasn't read enough poetry.

>>812384
>>812390
Christ, no. This is awful. Once again, this is filled with cliches, trite phrases, and no sense of how English is meant to be used.

>>812398
Or maybe you haven't heard enough lyrics.

>>812354
>>812364
no one (i don't think) is arguing that all lyrics are innately poetic. it's the same way all other forms of writing aren't innately poetic: the trait is earned on a case-by-case basis. some lyrics are poetic, most aren't.

what's your argument against lyricists who write all of the lyrics to a song before any music has been written?

>>812384
>>812390
op here. i think you just hurt our side of the debate.

>>812288

You don't like my song? I call it "Time by Hootie and the Blowfish" by Shakespeare's Sister

>>812405

This side of the argument will always bring up Bob Dylan and then the other side will bring up Donne, Milton, Eliot, Yeats, Keats/Shelley/Byron, maybe even Spenser and Chaucer and then lyric side will stumble around before eventually admitting defeat.

>>812384
If we're going to post Mountain Goats songs for poetryfags I might as well add this.

I hope that our few remaining friends
Give up on trying to save us
I hope we come up with a failsafe plot
To piss off the dumb few that forgave us
I hope the fences we mended
Fall down beneath their own weight
And I hope we hang on past the last exit
I hope it's already too late
And I hope the junkyard a few blocks from here
Someday burns down
And I hope the rising black smoke carries me far away
And I never come back to this town
Again in my life
I hope I lie
And tell everyone you were a good wife
And I hope you die
I hope we both die

I hope I cut myself shaving tomorrow
I hope it bleeds all day long
Our friends say it's darkest before the sun rises
We're pretty sure they're all wrong
I hope it stays dark forever
I hope the worst isn't over
And I hope you blink before I do
Yeah I hope I never get sober
And I hope when you think of me years down the line
You can't find one good thing to say
And I'd hope that if I found the strength to walk out
You'd stay the hell out of my way
I am drowning
There is no sign of land
You are coming down with me
Hand in unlovable hand
And I hope you die
I hope we both die

i wrote your name and burned it to see the color of the flame. it burned out the whole spectrum, as if you were everything. and all that i remember is the feeling of waking up. when we were kids, you were the sun to which my eyes would not adjust; i was a fountain, you could never drink enough.

>>812439

I support the John Darnelle camp, tho

Cliche imagery, worthless tripe. Please try harder.

WHOEVER comes to shroud me, do not harm,
Nor question much,
That subtle wreath of hair, which crowns my arm ;
The mystery, the sign, you must not touch ;
For 'tis my outward soul,
Viceroy to that, which then to heaven being gone,
Will leave this to control
And keep these limbs, her provinces, from dissolution.

For if the sinewy thread my brain lets fall
Through every part
Can tie those parts, and make me one of all,
Those hairs which upward grew, and strength and art
Have from a better brain,
Can better do 't ; except she meant that I
By this should know my pain,
As prisoners then are manacled, when they're condemn'd to die.

Whate'er she meant by it, bury it with me,
For since I am
Love's martyr, it might breed idolatry,
If into other hands these relics came.
As 'twas humility
To afford to it all that a soul can do,
So 'tis some bravery,
That since you would have none of me, I bury some of you.

The Funeral by John Donne.

someone arguing against lyrics: please post what you consider to be great poetry.

>>812384
To begin with, the rhyming choices are often banal. Where the rhymes are found, there is often a lack of rhythm. Rhyming is a tool used to create rhythm, so this strikes me as somewhat pointless. Not to mention the stuttering use of rhyming even takes away from affect by distracting from previous lines that had presence and set ambiance well.
The story itself is abstracted and defined in a varied manner without narrative-poetic reason, which only makes it obscure.
I can go into this completely line-by-line, but I really don't see much point. These might be great lyrics, I don't know the song, but as poetry they're pretty lackluster.

>>812453
Sup Donne.

Don't think lyrics are literature?
Go check out anything John Darnielle has ever written, Tallahassee's a good starting point.

i'm actually surprised at how civilized most of the people itt are being. this is one of the rare occasions where a controversial topic is able to provide a good discussion without too much backlash.

>>812475
Aren't the shitty lyrics already posted in this thread from him? They were bad and we told you why they were bad.

QUESTION: Do you consider the Homeric epic poems to be poetry or lyrics, since they were originally sung?

>>812457
Go read Ted Hughes. Just about anything should show you what separates lyrics from real poetry. If you're not sure where to start, buy Crow or Tales from Ovid.

>>812481
Yeah everyone once in a while you can have an actual conversation on /lit/ it's what makes the board special.

Bob dylan
/thread

if everything happens that can't be done
(and anything's righter
than books
could plan)
the stupidest teacher will almost guess
( with a run
skip
around we go yes)
there's nothing as something as one

one hasn't a why or because or although
(and buds know better
than books
don't grow)
one's anything old being everything new
(with a what
which
around we come how)
one's everyanything so

so world is a leaf so tree is a bough
(and birds sing sweeter
than books
tell how)
so here is away and so your is a my
(with a down
up
around again fly)
forever was never till now

now i love you and you love me
(and books are shuter
than books
can be)
and deep in the high that does nothing but fall
(with a shout
each
around we go all)
there's somebody who's calling who's we

we're anything brighter than even the sun
(we're everything greater
than books
might mean)
we're everyanything more than believe
(with a spin
leap
alive we're alive)
we're wonderful one times one

E.E. Cummings

>>812486
>cliches, trite phrases, and no sense of how English is meant to be used.
Yeah, that doesn't sound like a very good analysis to me. You wanna try again?

>>812487
They're poetry because music was accompaniment to the words, not the main force of what he was writing. Homer (or whoever you think wrote those poems) wasn't sitting around with a lyre trying to figure out a sick solo to go along with the Catalog of Ships.

The main constraints on the Homeric poems were meter.

The end of the question is this: Poetry and Lyrics are two very different mediums that have been historically different since the two have simultaneously existed. The Odyssey and the Iliad are technically lyrics, so no one can say that it's not a legitimate art; however, in the 21st century, capitalism has so completely annihilated any level of legitimacy in any type of music that makes an attempt at being commercial (aka all of it) that there can be no sincerity or worth left in it, other then pure commercial value. Poetry has also felt this decay, but the bastardization of lyrical music, which started, arguably, at the popularization of jazz music, has been taken so much farther that it's become unrecognizable. Poetry is no less subject to this effect, but being less marketable inherently, it hasn't felt it nearly to the extreme that lyrics has, although there can be no doubt that it's been messed up.

There is no correct answer to this question. Capitalism has destroyed all art. And that's all that can be said.

"TIIIIIIIIIME / WHY YOU RUIN POETRY?"

>>812507

>HURRRRR ARTISTS GET MONEY, THAT'S TERRIBLE, THEY SHOULD ALL BE POOR

Go away and take your ignorance of the history of every art form with you

>>812507
Capitalism has destroyed ALL art?
What about cinema and visual art and theater and independent music?
Hell, even good literature is still being written, despite the "evils of capitalism."

>>812513
Are you really claiming that making songs purely for business value is the not going to result in a lack of artistic result?

>>812518
Cinema can be artistic.

>>812513

It's not money, it's the dialectic of capital, the psychological effects it's had on all of us, the work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction, it's your favorite song on a commercial for Audi.

It pervades everyone in the modern world, anyone who's ever watched a television, it has an indomitable, homogenizing effect that has wrecked art entirely. It has nothing to do with money.

>>812500
>Gin tastes like medicine
Cliche.

>I'm in the mood for you.
Cliche.

>Smoking like a chimney.
Cliche.

>Price is right.
Cliche.

He's not using words as precision instruments to construct a novel story or convey emotions. He's shoving random phrases together and hoping that some of them stick. The music carries his songs, not his lyrics.

Really, if you think you might be interested in poetry go read some. There's a world of difference between modern rock lyrics and an actual poet. You'll be able to tell within one stanza why you're wrong if you consider this poetry.

>>812523
Are you really claiming that the people only make songs purely for business value.

>>812525
That's what I'm sayin', my nigga.

>>812526
You could argue that our increased availability to modern arts has encouraged the arts, though.

Aristotle wouldn't be pleased with you all.

It's amazing how many people tolerate music and lyrics written by retards. A good song is like a good book and I'll accept nothing less.

Bob fucking dylan. Jesus you can't have a thread about lyrics and not include the best song writer of the last centurary.

>>812531
What kind of car does your favorite songwriter drive?

>>812529
The song is called Game Shows Touch Our Lives so saying it's use of price is right is cliche is probably wrong.

>>812529
I'm just saying that it has literary merit. Read some other songs off the album, you might understand where I'm coming from little better.

>>812533

That's an extremely legitimate argument. There's no doubt that before the 20th century, art was delegated to the upper classes.

However... Is this really what we want? Isn't there a way to have legitimate, culturally relevant, sincere art, without having to get it through a TV or a Radio? The Internet is helping right now, but how long do we have before that becomes a totally homogenizing force, too?

>>812506

>Homer (or whoever you think wrote those poems) wasn't sitting around with a lyre trying to figure out a sick solo to go along with the Catalog of Ships.

Well that made my day.

It also goes to show that poetry and lyrics have different focus. The poet cares only for the words but a lyricist, no matter how much he says he cares only about the words HAS to care about the music (otherwise he would be a poet). The poet's terms are more focused so he can produce better art. As Oscar Wilde said: "Anything too stupid to be said is sung."

The blood was dry, it was sober
The feeling of audible cracks
And I could tell it was over
From the curtains that hung from your neck

And I realized that then you were perfect
And my teeth ripping out of my head
And it looked like a painting I once knew
Back when my thoughts weren't entirely intact

To pray for what I thought were angels
Ended up being ambulances
And the Lord showed me dreams of my daughter
She was crying inside your stomach

And I felt love again

>>812544
And I'm telling you that the two examples of his lyrics posted in this thread are not poetic in any sense, no matter how much they move you when he's singing. He's not a poet, he's a musician who writes lyrics with the intent of singing them out loud while numerous musical instruments fill in the silence spaces.

>>812526

My favourite song in a commercial for Audi is still my favourite song. I'm happy when a band I like does well commercially because it means they'll continue to make music. All I can see in your post is a juvenile distaste for popularity and success.

> homogenizing effect

Art has never been more varied than at this point

Can you provide an argument that doesn't consist of, "No, man, it's like 'cause of psychology, and dialectics, and mechanical reproduction"? An actual argument, I mean.

>>812529
Darnielle uses his whole albums to tell a story. Tallahassee the album is about a codependent couple falling out of love.

>>812564
>As Oscar Wilde said: "Anything too stupid to be said is sung."
The internet is telling me Voltaire said that, but cool quote either way. Thanks.

What about when people set existing poetry to music?

>>812584

Oh oops, that may well be. Seems like something either would be witty enough to say.

>>812586
In that case, the musician has made what many call "a song."

>>812602
So does it become not poetry then? What if he writes original lyrics to set to music later? Is that not poetry?

>>812564
That quote is Voltaire, not Wilde, I think.

>>812573
Well whoop-de-fucking-doo for him, but that doesn't make it poetry either.

>>812604
this.

>>812586

Then it makes them a lazy hack.

>>812612

What do you mean "this"? That's not a fucking statement you can affirm.

>>812612
>>812604
It will still be "shitty words written by an amateur aspiring musician set to music," not a literary poem of any reasonable sort of quality and not worthy of being discussed on /lit/.

>>812619
>this is the first time i've ever been to 4chan.

>>812610
Darnielle is lyrics first, music later. On most of his work, he pretty much is a poet who likes reciting his poetry to music... which is nothing new by any means, poets have been like this for years.
Here, let me post my favorite song lyrically from the album.

From the housetops to the gutters
From the ocean to the shore
The warning signs have all been bright and garish
Far too great in number to ignore

From the cities to the swamplands
From the highways to the hills
Our love has never had a leg to stand on
From the aspirins to the cross-tops to the Elevils
But I will walk down to the end with you
If you will come all the way down with me

From the entrance to the exit
Is longer than it looks from where we stand
I want to say I'm sorry for stuff I haven't done yet
Things will shortly get completely out of hand
I can feel it in the rotten air tonight
In the tips of my fingers
In the skin on my face
In the weak last gasp of the evening's dying light
In the way those eyes I've always loved illuminate this place
Like a trashcan fire in a prison cell
Like the searchlights in the parking lots of hell
I will walk down to the end with you
If you will come all the way down with me

Maybe I just like the melody of the song, but I dig the lyrics at the same time.
And that's my opinion. Poetry or not, I defy you to try and tell me that Darnielle is a bad songwriter.

I vastly disagree that art is more varied. When we boil down what makes good art to a commercial value, it reduces art to something that's built to be only garbage. Just like an old chair we put out on the street, the cans we held our spaghettios in, outdated computers, we are expected to buy CD's or MP3's, "support the artist", rinse, repeat.

Nothing built with the hopes to make a profit is built to last. We're supposed to consume and dispose. That's why nothing being made today will last. There's no longevity in today's art, other then as maybe a Barthesian cultural text.

This isn't some paranoid pseudo-anarchistic babbling, this is something we all feel all around us. It's the demoralizing force of capitalism, it's what we're all expected to do.

Twilight sells better then Stephen King, who sells better then Thomas Pynchon, and so forth ad infinitum.

>>812621
what if a highly-respected poet wrote a song with lyrics that could stand alone? would those lyrics REALLY not be poetic just because they're lyrics?

>>812631
>Nothing built with the hopes to make a profit is built to last.
I'll grant you that, but if you're trying to make the claim that commercially successful things aren't good anymore, you need to know that you're dead wrong.

>>812627
Who gives a shit what sort of songwriter he is? His lyrics aren't poetry. This is /lit/ not /mu/. Yes, I think he is a bad songwriter, but no one on this board cares because we're here for literature not depressed dudes singing about their ex-girlfriends. Take it back to your board where people will be happy to talk about this.

>>812637
>>812637
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IH8tNQAzSs

Enjoy the advertisement. Like a lolipop.

>>812621
In my country it is common to sing poems by well-known writers. Does seriously no one in the West do that? Holy shit, poetry really is dead.

>>812637

Well no one is saying I don't love it anyway. I love pop music, and I go to see movies, and I'm not above watching an hour of TV and playing video games. I'm right down in it, I'm a suburban teenage girl, I used to play with Barbies.

I just think it's important to be aware of what is going on around us, and the effects it has. That's why modern criticism and cultural theory is so important.

I LOVE the Mountain Goats by the way. And J.D.'s been drawing bigger and bigger crowds every time I go to see him.

>>812648

Nope. Never.

>>812631
>There's no longevity in today's art

Will somebody relay this message to the Gagafags/Monsterfags that think she'll be around for decades? SHE'S FUCKING DISPOSABLE! ALL THE CURRENT POP ARTISTS ARE!

>>812634
If an actual poet went up to Bob Dylan and said, "Hey, Bob, you are an awful writer so I wrote this poem and want you to write some music and perform it on stage," Dylan would probably say, "This is a poem, not lyrics, and it sucks because these are different mediums and you have no skill in this particular mode of art."

Stop with this stupid "what if?" like a five year-old trying to get a raise out of his parents.

>>812642
>Who gives a shit what sort of songwriter he is?
I do, music fans and critics do, people who enjoy good lyrics do.

>Yes, I think he is a bad songwriter
Haha, sounds to me like you're just being a contrarian for the sake of being contrary now.

>depressed dudes singing about their ex-girlfriends.
It's from a concept album, bro. He's trying to tell a story and convey the emotions. How is that different than what most poets do, anyway?

>Take it back to your board
/mu/ fucking blows. /lit/ is my board.

>>812652
You should start.

I read poetry and listen to instrumental-only music.

I win. You lose.

>>812657
>music fans and critics
You're in the wrong place.

>>812645
Lil' Wayne blows. That doesn't mean there aren't good commercially successful bands and artists.

>>812671
Most of the truly talented commercial artists are either dead or they've run out of decent material.

>>812631

>When we boil down what makes good art to a commercial value

We don't

> it reduces art to something that's built to be only garbage

No more than art that exists to provide legitimacy to tyrants (there's a lot of that)

>"support the artist"

Patronage has a long history in the arts

>Nothing built with the hopes to make a profit is built to last.

Dostoevsky's novels were often written with the immediate goal of making a buck; the idea that an artist cannot put any of his art into something he sells is ridiculous. The short story had its golden age when the market was booming.

>nothing being made today will last

Prophecy is a mug's game

>Twilight sells better then Stephen King, who sells better then Thomas Pynchon, and so forth ad infinitum.

Mozart & Salieri

>>812671
Such as?

>>812670
>>812665
Quit saging this thread, bros. This is a good discussion.

>>812686
Well, I like the White Stripes.

Absolutely love Morrissey's lyrics

>>812655
you didn't answer the question, you simply complicated my scenario, and added details that weren't originally included (i.e. putting words in my mouth). the question isn't stupid, because it pertains to the foundation of the argument that lyrics can't be music.

>>812693

This is officially the best thread I've ever seen on /lit/

I thought John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Roger Waters, Pete Townshend, Elton John, and Bob Dylan were pretty good.

I can't fucking believe people are actually questioning whether original poetry is still poetry when set to music. Poetry has been musical for thousands of years and suddenly you create your own divisions based on fucking mainstream radio?

>>812694
lyrics can't be poetry*

>>812693

moar liek MorrOSEy!

>>812655
Shel Silverstein wrote A Boy Named Sue as a poem, Johnny Cash set it to music.
So is it automatically no longer a poem?

>>812685

I'm not saying that legitimate art CAN'T sell. We just have to ask WHY certain artists sell and others don't. The fact is, today the best-selling acts are probably the most disposable (Sorry to all you John Mayer fans out there).

And you can by no means compare the economic climates of Mozart and Dostoevsky to Miley Cirus and J.K. Rowling. I'm sorry, but we live in a VASTLY different world now, and culture is created for far different reasons.

>>812718

It wasn't a good poem to begin with.

>>812721
if you haven't, you should watch the documentary money for nothing: behind the business of pop music. it's horribly depressing, but also sobering.

Oh for fuck's sake.

http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/

ALL POETRY HAS NOW BEEN DESTROYED, ENJOY /LIT/.

>>812718
If I were to sing Donne, Keats, Shelley, Neruda, Virgil, Homer, Plath, Sexton, Merwin, Cumming, or any other real poet out loud, it doesn't cease to be poetry because they were written as poems. Use your brain.

A musician writing a song intended to be sung is not writing a poem.

>>812739

Holy god, this site raped my eyes. Get this fucker a goddamn web designer or some HTML skills.

>>812721
>implying that Mozart and Dostoevsky were made popular with the masses.

>implying children literature should be judged with the same standards as Dostoevsky .

>>812744
Why isn't he writing a poem? I don't understand.

>>812721

>I'm not saying that legitimate art CAN'T sell.

No, what you said is that there is no legitimate art.

>the best-selling acts are probably the most disposable

This is not a new thing, which is what the Mozart & Salieri analogy was for, not for a comparison on economic terms

>you can by no means compare the economic of ... Dostoevsky to Miley Cirus and J.K. Rowling

Dostoevsky's immediate purpose was money. Which is funny, because from all reports Rowling's wasn't.

Have you ever read a book about the fin-de-siecle (or even earlier) European aristocracy? The television is our salon. It is no more or less arbitrary and harmful to art except as those people were better educated. Which by no means guarantees anyone actually cares about art.

>>812744
Homer was intended to be sung D:

>>812760
See >>812506

>>812769
So that brings us back to guys like John Darnielle, who focus on the music after the lyrics.
Is he still not a poet?

>>812776

>who focus on the music after the lyrics.

But he's focusing on the lyrics with plans to make it work with music, then he works on the music.

So no, he is not a fucking poet.

>>812769
You listen to music with solos? HAHAHAHAHA

Nothing too challenging about taking a poem with good rhythm and improvising a quiet melody for it. People have been doing this for THOUSANDS OF FUCKING YEARS. I'm sorry you're only aware of one type of music.

>>812776
i think the argument is that lyrics can't be poetry because there is an intention of them eventually being sung, which affects the end result regardless of if the lyrics were written with or without music in mind.

>>812788
The only limitation here is you probably won't want them to be blank verse.

>>812782
But the lyrics are the driving force, which, as that guy said, would make it acceptable to call him a poet.
Do you think that Homer made noise to accompany his poetry? Of course he works on the fucking music.

>>812788
Oh, well fuck that. That's a terrible argument.

>>812795
i'm not saying i agree with the argument, i was just clarifying it for the other dude, because i don't think he fully understood it.

>>812782
So meter and rhythm are antithetical to poetry? Awesome to know.

>>812785
What are yout trying to say? Homer was writing an epic poem and at the time poems were often accompanied by music. It's not called an epic song. It's a poem and he intended it to be a poem. He didn't contort or base his words off of what would sound good when performed by a musician. He followed the dictates of classical meter and proper poetic practice.

>>812811
All the lyrics posted in this thread exhibit no understanding of meter and rhythm like a proper poem should.

>>812821
You don't need to contort words to sound good with music. You don't need to set Homer to solos! There is an infinite number of melodies you could make for the poems.

>>812821
>It's not called an epic song.
And that, in and of itself, makes it a poem, and makes songs not poems?

>He didn't contort or base his words off of what would sound good when performed by a musician.
Bro, have you listened to the Mountain Goats before? It's not Wreck of the Hesperus, syllabically structured "Lalalala *music music music* Lalalala *music music music*" stuff. You can tell that the music was an afterthought and the lyrics were the priority.

Lyric is a poetic mode, just like elegy, ode, so on and so forth. What distinguishes lyric from other modes of poetry is its rime scheme, metre and personal subject.

This thread is full of idiots.

>>812834
>>812821
Please, PLEASE, listen to them. You'll know where we're all coming from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSLDkIJnNF8

>>812859
People in this thread are arguing about "words sung in bad contemporary songs" not "lyrical poetry."

>>812860
He's a bad lyricist and a bad musician. Your musical taste is bad and you should feel bad. Never post him in /lit/ again, he's clearly not relevant.

>>812834
I'm arguing on a theoretical basis here, because this arbitrary division enrages me. Obviously most lyrics are shit because most music is shit, and even if the music manages to be good lyrics can be an afterthought, and even if the whole package is good lyrics written out lose a whole level of meaning, and even if they didn't this is fucking 4chan and you wouldn't like them anyway.

But a good classic poem does not cease to be poetry just because it is sung and there's nothing that keeps anyone for writing a poem and then singing it.

FUCK lyrics.

>>812905
I guess there's a bit of a cultural divide here too. I think nothing about being introduced to a classic poet in song and then going and reading him in a book. And songwriters publishing poetry collections. I wonder why poetry and music have become disassociated elsewhere, it seems pretty unnatural.

>>812905
I don't really disagree with anything I could understand in your poorly written post.

That said, I think that there is a board for lyrics - >>>/mu/ - and that's where song lyrics should be posted and discussed.

>>812904
lol alright bro, whatever you say.
Why is he a bad lyricist, though?

>>812955
Sorry, I misspoke. I meant "he's not a good poet." For all I know those lyrics are considered good in the music world.

As silly as it sounds, lyrics usually have very little place in songs nowadays.

Most often they're a nonsensical excuse to have a person presenting the music, and they tend to be so poorly sang that you can't make out the words anyway.

Staring out of his window as the world rushes by
Arthur Robinson closes the glass and replies,
"I dream of Ballerinas and I don't know why
but I see Cadillac's sailing

I was born on the shores of the Chesapeake Bay
But Maryland and Virginia have faded away
And I keep thinking tomorrow is coming today
So I am endlessly waiting

And the comet is coming between
Me and the girl who could make it all clean
Out there in the shadow of the modern machine
Walks St. Robinson in his Cadillac dream.

Carrie's down in her basement all toe shoes and twinned
With the girl in the mirror who spins when she spins
From where you think you'll end up to the state that you're in
Your reflection approaches and then recedes again

And the comet is coming between
Me and the girl who could make it all clean
Out there in the shadow of the modern machine
Walks St. Robinson in his Cadillac dream.

I have dreamed of a black car that shimmers and drives
Down the length of the evening to the carnival side
In a house where regret is a carousel ride
We are spinning and spinning and spinning and now...

There's a hole in the ceiling down through which I fell
There's a girl in a basement coming out of her shell
And there are people who will say that they knew me so well
I may not go to heaven, I hope you go to hell

And the comet is coming between
Me and the girl who could make it all clean
Out there in the shadow of the modern machine
Walks St. Robinson in his Cadillac dream.

op here. after reading this entire thread, i don't really have a strong opinion.
there have been lots of great arguments on both sides.
the only thing i'm really having a problem with is the people saying that lyrics aren't poetry, and that that somehow makes them less artistic or rich.
i can completely understand why you consider them to be two separate mediums, but why is the overall tone of the people arguing this so hateful towards lyrics?
also, i would still say that some lyrics belong to the realm of literature, regardless of if they are poetry or not.

hey OP would you be interested in writing lyrics for me?

>>812755

You're right, I contradicted myself. I retain my previous position, that there is no legitimate art. There is just some crap I happen to like.

Also, you're failing to comprehend what I mean by our culture being different from anything before the 20th century. No matter what you say, Dostoevsky did not live in the time of pervasive, globalized capitalism that we live in. He did not know television commercials, pop music, Viagra, Car and Driver Magazine, and Nike. His motivations for making money to survive (and pay gambling debts) and continue to write are different from J.K. Rowling's, who probably lives in a massive mansion, has constant media attention, and who's books have probably been read by more college-age people then Dostoevsky's today.


If Dostoevsky was writing today, he would be Chuck Palahnuick.

>>813003
Not OP, but if you can show me some samples of your music and I like it, we could possibly work something out.

>>813001
We're not hateful towards lyrics, we're hateful to lyrics posted on /lit/ with the comment, "Dude check out how deep this poem is!!!" There's a separate board for lyrics, most lyricists are miserable poets, and there's no reason their crap should appear on this board.

>>813016

The point of all this is to demonstrate that we live in a monstrously fucked up society where, through the concepts of cultural texts, we should retain a constant awareness of what art is in our society, how it affects us, and why that affect is taking place.

Cultural theory is essential to understanding our society and freeing ourselves from it, so that we can return to a more legitimate means of creating art, outside a Capitalist context.

>>813019
I'm not OP, but one of my favorite lyricists went to write a book of poetry, and initially thought poems were just lyrics without music. Looking back through it, though, and reading it aloud, he hated it. He did more research and realized that, while there is overlap, they are two very different things. He decided to save what was salvageable from his first "poetry" book and use it as song lyrics, and start over on a poetry book, doing it the right way. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

>>813003
i actually use all of the lyrics i write for my own songs, but good luck to you! maybe >>813018
can help you out.

>>813037
Who was it? Looks like he came to the conclusion that seems to have been reached in this thread.

>>813016

>He did not know television commercials, pop music, Viagra, Car and Driver Magazine, and Nike.

Who cares? What difference does it make? The disposable, the trivial, the falsely valuable, they were all present in his time, the literature of poshlost' and the literature of Russia are practically the same thing.

>who probably lives in a massive mansion, has constant media attention, and who's books have probably been read by more college-age people then Dostoevsky's today.

None of which was true when she started to write and none of which is true for the vast majority of writers.

>>813069
Adam Duritz. Lead singer of Counting Crows and writer of this song: >>812993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FHxQmHCjkk

Ignore the crappy fanvid. No official video for the song exists.

>>813087
>Counting Crows

stopped reading there

>>813121
>implying I care
Hahaha no.

>>813070

>>the vast majority of writers

But all writers want that, or at least the ability to sustain themselves and be able to write 'freely'. That's the whole problem.

What I want is an art outside that context, the demoralizing, subjugating aspects of capitalism, which is exactly what Dostoevsky might have been one of the last examples of, which is the reason he was on the tail end of a time when anything was worth reading. Because it was one of the last examples of an art that wasn't subject to mechanical reproduction.

All your counterexamples constitute entire problem with today's art. And it's the reason that only a tiny few shining examples (Raymond Carver, Eugine O'Neill and MAYBE John Updike are all I can think of offhand) are worthy of the Western Cannon.

Days turn into years. "A" students turn into dropouts
Seeing the world from a creative angle turns into seeing it from a couch
Orgasms become lifetimes. Bong hits turn into white lines
A face becomes a dartboard and cardboard becomes a house
Boys turn into men. Enemies become your friends
Losing turns into winning and the beginning becomes the end
Words turn into magic. Rewind becomes a habit
Rabbits become vultures and cultures become trends
A party becomes a funeral. Sunlight turns into cancer
The rain turns beautiful. An unusual question becomes an answer
Happiness becomes a cataract. A sip turns into a six-pack
And Earth turns into Mars as my album becomes a standard
A hero becomes a statistic. A lost soul enlisted
The potholes are lifted as the hot coals leave you blistered
A sickness becomes a teardrop. A cup of coffee becomes a long day
Your best friend's guidance becomes the wrong way
As the song plays my voice becomes the past, present, and future
Transportation becomes pollution as humans become computers
Time becomes space. Minds become waste
And a person becomes less interested when a mic becomes an instrument
An age turns into a nightmare. Love becomes hate
The nine becomes a zero and every country becomes one state
All you thought you knew was just a foolish assumption
Yes, everything is something. But something is nothing

>>813134

>only a tiny few shining examples (Raymond Carver, Eugine O'Neill and MAYBE John Updike are all I can think of offhand) are worthy of the Western Cannon.
>Raymond Carver, Eugine O'Neill and MAYBE John Updike

oh god SHUT THE FUCK UP

also,
>mfw when "cannon"

>>813134

>all writers want that, or at least the ability to sustain themselves and be able to write 'freely'
> Shakespeare's Sister
>Thinks it is a bad thing to want money and a room of one's own in order to write fiction

>the demoralizing, subjugating aspects of capitalism, which is exactly what Dostoevsky might have been one of the last examples of,

Lucky him, living under the demoralizing, subjugating aspect of literal subjugation.

>Because it was one of the last examples of an art that wasn't subject to mechanical reproduction.

Printing press

The second part of Don Quixote was written so that people wouldn't be able to profit from writing their own addenda.

>only a tiny few shining examples (Raymond Carver, Eugine O'Neill and MAYBE John Updike are all I can think of offhand) are worthy of the Western Cannon

As though there were any point in time when genius was rare.

>>813171

>>Nitpicking my arguments without actually making any of your own or demonstrating any actual understanding of what I'm talking about.

Mmmkay, I'm just going to go off and read some more PoMo crit, since they're concerned with all of the things I am, along with most of academia today, and I can actually learn something from them. You should read some Adorno or Derrida or
Lukacs or the Frankfort school.

OKAY IT'S BEEN FUN HAVE A NICE DAY

>>813214

>derp I have no arguments except bawwww Capitalism

Have fun retreating into theory because you can't provide a single rational reason for saying that capitalism destroys all art.

>>813214

>read some more PoMo crit,

hahano, I'd rather read something worthwhile. enjoy your delusions.

>>812908
>Looked at file name

What is this I don't eve--

>anything written for music isn't poetry
>rhythm and meter are the only forms of acceptable poetry
>John Darnielle not a poet

Fuck you, /lit/. Fuck you.

>>814126
Go back to /mu/ if you're so upset about this.

>>814129
I've read a ton of poetry bro, I'm not just some random /mu/tant wandering in to whine about lyrics. Tennyson (for example) is pretty clearly superior to any lyricist writing today, but it's ridiculous to claim that some lyrics don't have literary merit. Especially for people like John Darnielle, who basically write a ton of poems and pick some to turn into songs. Compare him to any of the horde of modern poets who've clogged up the literary journals in the last decade or so with postmodern shit, he's honestly not that bad.

>>814159
No one has posted a good example of his poetry. Everything in this thread, besides Donne, has been crap.

>>814172
Go look it up for yourself, bro. Darnielle's written a lot of good shit.

>>814172
So any poetry that you don't like automatically has no artistic merit and isn't worthy of being discussed? I enjoy Donne's strange conceits and skill with prosody as much as I enjoy Darnielle's touching simplicity.

Frankly, I get the feeling the THIS POETRY IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD wankers in this thread are only pretending to like John Donne so they can dismiss Darnielle from the comfort of their ivory towers.

Saying that most lyrics are shit is fine, but saying that there's no such thing as good lyrics is full retard.

>>814184
Since the quality of his two "poems" in this thread is below that of the average /lit/ critique thread, I won't bother.

>>814190
There probably are good lyrics. They don't belong on /lit/ - there's a separate board all ready and happy to discuss them. >>>/mu/

There are no good lyrics in this thread.

>>814192
I was trying to think of a nice way to say that maybe you can't appreciate good poetry but then I realised that you're pretty clearly not interested in enjoying poetry that you don't already want to like.

Do you even read poetry that's been written in the last ten years? Bukowski and cummings don't count.

>>814204
>last ten years
>Bukowski and cummings
You're bad at math and history.

>>814198
Oh for fuck's sake. /lit/ discussion of lyrics is for people who want to look at lyrics as literature, not talk about the songs they're in. And these are good lyrics. Maybe you don't like them because you can't appreciate them?

>>814212
Heh, my bad. Doesn't really change the point I was making though.

>>814220
2deep4me? Is that your argument, really?

The lyrics in this thread have been broken down, line by line, to show why they're bad as poetry. The biggest complaints are that they use cliche imagery, weak rhymes, and trite and stock phrases. These authors also don't have the respect for words that is necessary to craft a strong poem. They mix and match words that don't fit together and don't interact well. Good poets avoid these problems. The authors of these lyrics are not good poets.

>>814248
A couple of lines have been cherry-picked to 'prove' some point that the poster had in mind before he even saw the damn poem.

>cliche imagery
One of those ("price is right") was obviously there because of the theme of the piece, and the other two weren't that bad at all.
>weak rhymes
Not necessarily a criticism. William Blake was full of weak rhymes. Weak rhymes (or obvious rhymes, I think you mean) give a certain effect and style to the piece that works well in my opinion with the content.
>trite and stock phrases
That's just not true. Examples please.

I'm not saying it's 2deep4u, I'm saying that maybe the problem is that you don't appreciate this particular style? I'm not a huge fan of the way Whitman uses language, or William Blake's childlike poems.

>>814204
>>814229
WS Merwin. He's old as fuck but still writing great new poetry. I saw him at a reading a few months ago - he's living strong.

Also Stephen Dunn, Ted Kooser, Natasha Trethewey, Charles Simic, etc. They are all older (I'm guessing; I haven't checked Darnielle's age but hope he's still very young) than Darnielle so maybe he'll learn to write better as he ages.

>>814315
He's 43, but his lyrics are better than anything you've ever written, I guarantee it

>>814303
Just read these lyrics again with a critical eye. Pretend someone just posted these on /lit/ in a new thread and said, "I just wrote a poem guize any crits?" Darnielle is not a poet. He might be a storyteller, but I don't think he's very good at that either. His songs have nothing that would make these poems: there is no consonance, assonance, alliteration, meter, rhythm, whatever, anywhere. He strings words together into sentences without punctuation and adds random linebreaks. He's not using words precisely, he's not using language as a tool. He needs filler to distract his listeners from the bland, uninspired droning background music he's going to play as he sings.

>>814315
And you don't think that Darnielle's work even deserves to be called poetry? Fuck man, I'll admit he's no Charles Simic but the whole "I hope he gets better as he ages" thing sounds incredibly pretentious.

>>812627>>812384 are his two pieces in this thread by the way.

>>814326
>his lyrics are better than anything you've ever written, I guarantee it
Ok. I'm a recent college graduate with a psychology degree and job in a lab for a couple years until graduate school. He's a musician with a rabid following on 4chan, the unwiped sweaty taint of the internet. His followers can only point to two songs of his they think are "literary," and when those are exposed as shallow, uninspired non-poetry his followers can only say, "Well, at least he's better than you, a complete amateur non-writer on the internet."

He must be proud. You must be too.

>>814334
Alliteration, consonance and assonance are all very much present. Take away those things from your totally unbiased advice and you're pretty much describing e.e cummings.

Protip: you haven't been able to break poetry down into meter or rhythm for a long, long time.

>bland, uninspired droning background music
Oh, you're trolling? You should have said so earlier.

>>814349
>>bland, uninspired droning background music
I wrote this because someone else in this thread, a Darnielle fan, kept going on about how the music was an afterthought to his marvellous poetry. He said something like, "Just listen to the music, you can tell it's not important to him as the words!!!" I interpreted this as, "His music is simple and not very good." Following the links posted here, I was able to confirm that this was indeed the case.

Not trolling, just unimpressed. Post links to prove me wrong, I guess. I have some time to listen to music before I go to bed. Note: nothing in this thread has hooked me, yet.

>>814368
No Children
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRP6egIEABk
Oceanographer's Choice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPjbloNJQUE&feature=related
Going to Georgia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-xxeSRHuso&feature=related

Listen to them roughly in order, I guess. If you don't like them, then you won't like them. People have different tastes.

I'd be lying if I said this was a good discussion, but at least it was relatively civil. Have fun, anon, I'm off to read some Kierkegaard and listen to Your Belgian Things.

ITT: dummies argue about arbitrary categories

>>814335
>the whole "I hope he gets better as he ages" thing sounds incredibly pretentious.
How is this pretentious? People get better with practice. As a young person (I thought he was young before you guys told me he's in his 40's), he hasn't had much practice. Of course, now that I know he's older I'm even less impressed.

>>814368
Musically speaking, this is their best song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRP6egIEABk

>>814346
His fanbase extends beyond 4chan, and I think most of his songs are literary... and he is very prolific.

>>814388
I hope to god you're younger than eighteen. Maybe your posts will get better with age.

>>814413
THAT just happened!

>>814406
Here in Australia I saw him live pretty recently. It was amazing.

(I wouldn't say No Children was his best song though. It's damn good, of course, but I'd hesitate to say it was better than Oceanographer's Choice musically or Going to Georgia lyrics-wise.)

>>814384
His guitar playing is boring and his lyrics have not gotten better than the two examples posted in this thread. "GEORGIAAA-HEEEE-HAAAA-HAAA-EEEE-AAAHHH-HA." Really?

He's not a poet, he's a songwriter who inexplicably has a following. Different tastes, I guess. Sage because this is very obviously no longer related to literature.

Moon stuttering in the sky like film
Stuck in a projector

So not trite

>>814431
You have bad taste. Go back to your Avenged Sevenfold and Linkin Park.

>>814433
Don't bother, these people made their minds up about TMG many posts ago. You've got good taste though, tripfag.

>>814436
I don't know who these people are. Have you forgotten which board you're on? This is /lit/ not /mu/ - get it through your head, he's not a poet, he's a songwriter. I haven't listened to enough music to determine whether he's a good songwriter. You seem very adamant about this so I'll just believe on faith that he is and assume I have bad musical taste. Go back to your board if you want to talk about him, though, because his amateur poetry does not belong here.

>>814441
Discussion of lyrics as literature is perfectly relevant to /lit/. If you were really interested in cleaning up the board you'd go sage some of the Sasha Grey troll threads or the replace-a-word-in-title-with-nigger threads.

But I agree with you that this particular thread stopped discussing the literary merit of lyrics a long time ago, so sage.

I think this thread needs some motherfucking MILTON to show these lyricfags who's boss. I'll even use a brooding piece so all you summerfag children can relate.

"Is this the region, this the soil, the clime,"
Said then the lost Archangel, "this the seat
That we must change for Heaven?--this mournful gloom
For that celestial light? Be it so, since he
Who now is sovereign can dispose and bid
What shall be right: farthest from him is best
Whom reason hath equalled, force hath made supreme
Above his equals. Farewell, happy fields,
Where joy for ever dwells! Hail, horrors! hail,
Infernal world! and thou, profoundest Hell,
Receive thy new possessor--one who brings
A mind not to be changed by place or time.
The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less than he
Whom thunder hath made greater? Here at least
We shall be free; th' Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure; and, in my choice,
To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.
But wherefore let we then our faithful friends,
Th' associates and co-partners of our loss,
Lie thus astonished on th' oblivious pool,
And call them not to share with us their part
In this unhappy mansion, or once more
With rallied arms to try what may be yet
Regained in Heaven, or what more lost in Hell?"

>>814441
I deleted my last post, was too cruel.

I just don't understand how it is you can say he's a bad songwriter. Fine, he's not a poet, so be it. But he's a pretty damn solid songwriter, and songs can have literary merit.

>>814454
Fucking beautiful.

Oh but wait, it's not liiiiiteraaaary.

>>814454
I have a copy of Paradise Lost sitting on my desk right now, and I'm listening to the Mountain Goats (which I believe have very poetic lyrics.) We're not all summerfags here.

Countering your Milton with some Browning:
What in the midst lay but the Tower itself?
The round squat turret, blind as the fool's heart
Built of brown stone, without a counterpart
In the whole world. The tempest's mocking elf
Points to the shipman thus the unseen shelf
He strikes on, only when the timbers start.

Not see? because of night perhaps? - why, day
Came back again for that! before it left,
The dying sunset kindled through a cleft:
The hills, like giants at a hunting, lay
Chin upon hand, to see the game at bay,--
"Now stab and end the creature - to the heft!"

Not hear? when noise was everywhere! it tolled
Increasing like a bell. Names in my ears
Of all the lost adventurers my peers,--
How such a one was strong, and such was bold,
And such was fortunate, yet each of old
Lost, lost! one moment knelled the woe of years.

There they stood, ranged along the hillsides, met
To view the last of me, a living frame
For one more picture! in a sheet of flame
I saw them and I knew them all. And yet
Dauntless the slug-horn to my lips I set,
And blew. "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower came."

>>814459
Are you retarded?
>>814454
This is not literary? It's from Paradise Lost you dumbfuck.

>>814464
I was being sarcastic...

>>814453
sage doesn't do anything to stop an active thread. All it does is make a post without bumping a thread. It also gives people involved in the thread something to respond to - in effect, a sage is troll-bait most of the time.

Report threads you think don't belong here. I really don't think anyone looks at the reported-queue for /lit/, though, so it won't help. Even the "If i make it to page 15 i's be free!" slave image threads last here for days, sometimes, despite all the people that report it, and despite its complete lack of connection to literature at all. "Replace a book title with nigger" has some connetion literature so it's likely that even if a mod did see it he wouldn't care enough to delete it.

>>814465
You did a shit job of it. How would it have been sarcastic to say that Paradise Lost is not literary? I don't even get what the sarcasm would've meant.

>>814470
I was making fun of the people who said that lyrics could never under any circumstances be considered literature, bro

>>814476
Yeah, I understand, but Paradise Lost isn't lyrics, so there's absolutely no relevance as a use of sarcasm. WTF is wrong with you?

I was listening to one of the Youtube links in here and clicked a "related videos" link to get to "Love Love Love" by the Mountain Goats. The lyrics were still crap but he mentioned Raskolnikov - this is his most /lit/ related song so far. How did no one mention this?

>>814484
You know, for a time, we were being relatively civil, regardless of how stupid both sides got.

Juuuuust sayin'.

>>814476
>>814465
You're an idiot, Carrot, and /lit/ has declined in quality since you started coming here regularly.

Carrot has no idea who Milton is or what Paradise Lost is, that's why he made this joke.

>>814492
So I take it you concede to losing the argument, since you're pulling this ad hominem shit now?
That's cool with me.

>>814454

Carrot King can't even use sarcasm properly, that's sad.

>>814501

Whoops, meant to link to this
>>814476

>>814501
Actually, it's Carrot FLOWER King.

Hey gentlemen, I had a bit of a lapse of judgment for a minute, made an erroneous statement. Not unlike anything else you guys have ever done. Of course, you can get away with it because you're anonymous.
So, hey.
Stop it.

>>814492
No, I just popped into this thread to tell you that insulting Milton is uncool on a literature board. Posting music is uncool on a literature board. Not knowing Paradise Lost is uncool on a literature board. Not recognizing Mountaing Goats lyrics as crap is uncool on a literature board.

People keep telling you why these aren't good poems. Your only response is "no u." You clearly aren't qualified to discuss these things. Just stop posting about music here, ok?

>>814488
I was in this thread when it started. You might remember me:
>>812234
>>812293
>>812354
>>812392

I was the guy civilly trying to point out that while lyrics certainly have their own merit and are a form of poetry, the very intent of their expression separates them from poetry. Lyrics by intent, by use, are musical notes. They belong in a discussion of music, not literature.
I came back to see the thread completely melted down into a bunch of horseshit and bickering over one particular person's (sorry, but I agree) substandard attempts at poetic forms.
I'm sorry I jumped down your throat, I do apologize, but your arguments are completely pointless. A discussion of lyrics belongs in /mu/.

>>814511

>Actually, it's Carrot FLOWER King.

I don't give a fuck. Maybe you'll think twice about parading your stupidity around with a trip.

>No, I just popped into this thread to tell you that insulting Milton is uncool on a literature board.
Yeah, I didn't do that though.

>Posting music is uncool on a literature board.
Granted

>Not knowing Paradise Lost is uncool on a literature board.
You really think I don't know what Paradise Lost is? Are you fucking kidding me? The first guy to post from Paradise Lost SAID they were lyrics. Fuck, bro.

>Not recognizing Mountaing Goats lyrics as crap is uncool on a literature board.
That's cause they're, uh, not crap bro. Maybe in your opinion, but to a lot of people...

>People keep telling you why these aren't good poems.
Yeah, and I don't think they're very good reasons. They don't back up their claims.

>Your only response is "no u."
Really? I didn't feel like it was.

>You clearly aren't qualified to discuss these things.
Yeah, well, neither is anyone else on /lit/.

>Just stop posting about music here, ok?
Fair enough.

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents.

Lyrics are poetry when you remove the music. The problem is, they aren't good poetry. To use an extreme example, it's like people claiming visual novels are literature, take away the pictures and sound shit and sure it can be called literature, but it isn't GOOD literature.

>>814517
Gee, ya try to lighten the mood with a joke and...

>>814523
>The first guy to post from Paradise Lost SAID they were lyrics.
Oh, you can't read? That's why you think The Mountaing Goats make poetry?

>>814523
>>Your only response is "no u."
>Really? I didn't feel like it was.

>>814326
>King of Carrot Flowers !9/tjuMV9.I 06/21/10(Mon)03:43 No.814326
>He's 43, but his lyrics are better than anything you've ever written, I guarantee it

>>814530
There's no "g" in "mountain." Can't you fucking spell?
no man I'm fuckin' witchu of course you can spell

Misunderstanding something doesn't mean you don't know how to read. Don't be a fucking dick.

>>814536
Cool single instance, bro. Too bad I wasn't even arguing about his lyrics at that point.

ITT: tripfag gangbang

>>814541
Feels bad, man.

>The first guy to post from Paradise Lost SAID they were lyrics. Fuck, bro.

That was me. Uh, what the hell? No, I didn't say that.

>needs some motherfucking MILTON to show these lyricfags who's boss

Is your reading comprehension THAT bad, tripfag?

>>814545
I misunderstand a post on 4chan and now my ability to read is in question?
lol aight nigga you dumb I'm not even going to bother fighting off your personal attacks anymore. Ya'll are just teaming up on me because I took up a contrary position on the literary merit of lyrics.

>>814549

>I misunderstand a post on 4chan and now my ability to read is in question?

Yes. Because I basically wrote "MILTON CAN KICK YOUR FAGGY SONGWRITER'S ASS" and you somehow misinterpreted this to mean "Milton wrote lyrics".

Go to bed. Maybe I'll forgot your trip by morning.

>>814549
You haven't been here long, but I'll give you a brief "guide to /lit/":

1) The following rules apply more to users posting with trips than random anons.
2) We will remember every stupid thing you say.
3) When responding to a post, make sure to read the whole thread first.
4) When responding to a post, make sure to read the post carefully. If you are unsure about what the poster is trying to express, indicate this in your response and ask for clarification.
5) You are assumed to be literate. Do your best to spell properly and adhere to standard rules of English punctuation and grammar.
6) If you ignore rule #5, we will ridicule you.

There are more but I can't find them.

>>814567
Thanks, I'll sure be abiding to rule four from now on.

>>814563
Nyaaaaah.

>>814571
>I'll sure be abiding to rule four from now on
You've already failed. The phrase is "abiding by," not "abiding to." This explains why you think such obviously bad lyrics qualify as literary poetry.

>>814592
Hello. Dumbass.
I made a grammatical error. That's a violation of rule five. Is your reading comprehension really so bad that you think "read carefully" means "use proper grammar"?

>>814598
It's not a grammatical error. It's an "I am a shit head and haven't read widely enough to know what abide means" error. Seriously, why are you here on /lit/ shitting the place up for hours at a time? Lurk more and read more before you post. Take a break for a while, it's ok, we'll still be here. Go read some books. Read some actual poetry. Once you have something interesting and non-ignorant to say we will stop making fun of you.

>>814602
No, no, it was the proper usage of the word "abide." I just used to where I should have used by.
But you seem like a pretty chill guy. We should hang out sometime.

>>814614
>We should hang out sometime.
I'm forbidden by law to be around minors without court supervision. Make a new thread on your 18th birthday, ok?

>>814487
TMG use literary references (often to the Bible) in a ton of their songs, it's awesome. Love Love Love is amazing, too. I hope you like it!

>>814487
Probably because fans of these bad songs don't know who Raskolnikov is.

>>814626
derp

>>814626
I am here to disprove your assertion.

I read through the whole thread. >>812218 is psychic or something - he knew exactly what was going to happen.

The river winds 'round these little green hills,
And stays in the woods for days.
We were built to consider the unmanifested,
And make of love an immaculate place.

I hear a smile and a tear in your voice.
Don't lay the groundwork for a case of remorse.
When you feel that first ice cold twist in the wind,
I'll come back the way that I came.
Shot of dixie hemlock will take care of the pain.

Now a man keeps his money folded square in his pocket
And doesn't take everything that he could.
He'll rise like a lion and line himself up
With the poor, the fair, and the good.

When you feel that first ice cold twist in the wind
Will you hang a lamp at the end of the lane?
Black-eyed susans from the Maryland shore.
We'll trim back the thorns around the hospital door.
More will be seen than will be understood.
Go with the poor, the fair, and the good.
The poor, the fair, and the good.

>>814827
These are also bad, bordering on embarrassing. Better than Mountain Goats lyrics though.

>>816259
Stop being a dick