/lit/ - Literature

>>7768151
Legalism is where it's at to be honest.

Confucianism is focussed on traditional structures already too eroded in the west to be salvageable.

I know very little beyond the basic understanding that he had a lot to say about civic duty, sons obeying fathers, wives obeying husbands, other relationships, etc. How could his philosophy solve western issues

>>7768151
he confuses me.

>>7768168
Tradition, ceremony, respect. Things the west has largely given up on. Confucius is about playing your roll in the bigger picture and all about nurturing your integrity, morality, virtue, etc and being the best human being you can.

The west has given up on traditional structures, individuals want to feel like special snowflakes, theres this nasty idea of cultural relativism floating around, and we've largely devalued things like morality and virtue as archaic meaningless concepts. As a result depression, anxiety, and a general sense of lack of direction plauge the west. Especially this current generation. Confucius teaches us that humanity is not taught, but discovered within us. Hes the antidote for the nihilist attitude that so many of us hold now and may not even realize

B-bump?

>>7768194
So he's Plato + muh tradtional structures, but without all of the logical reasoning backing up his statements?

>>7768271
Fucking what? Have you ever taken a philosophy class nigga? And yes he has logic to back up his beliefs, even though I didn't give them

Someone link me to a Confuscianism starter pack

>>7768151
CHYNA

>>7768273
The Four Books and Five Classics is probably the most quintessential Confucius text

>>7768272
>Have you ever taken a philosophy class
Obviously not since he didn't already know Confucius philosophy. Its literally Phil101

consider this fact /lit/
Machiavelli told people to do evil while he himself refrained from doing it
Confucius told people to do good while he himself never did it


>>7768194
not ceremony anon, 礼 is ritual

>>7768285
>Confucius told people to do good while he himself never did it
What do you mean? I would describe him as very virtuous and moral

>getting butthurt because wine was neglected and consequently deteriorated into vinegar
>getting butthurt because you must endure the sourness of vinegar and just keep reassuring yourself that the amount of vinegar in the pot is finite
>not learning to appreciate and enjoy the nature of things by embracing the good with the bad

Lao Tzu is superior in every way.

>>7768296
>not learning to appreciate and enjoy the nature of things by embracing the good with the bad
Next time someone's stabbing me I'll have to remember to embrace it because the bad is in fact good

>>7768299

But anon, your body will die and give life to new things. Things that can amount to more than a basement-dwelling cuck.

>>7768288
name a good thing he did

>适齐
>事鲁
>徙卫、曹、宋、郑、陈、蔡、叶、楚

inb4 define "good" first

而谓似丧家之狗然哉然哉

>>7768305
If all that checks out, I think you win post of the week.

>>7768305
>implying I'm going to translate that

>>7768302
Ok? Good for the things after me. That doesn't help me become an ideal person

>>7768302
This is a startlingly hilarious combination of universal awareness and plain meanness.

This is why I love /lit/. Uh, I mean hate. Hate.

>>7768312

Your rotting flesh will feed the wheat that makes the bread to feed the hungry. What's not ideal about that?

>>7768320
Again, doesn't mean anything to me as an individual. Its nice to think about, how you know the universe will ultimately be fine after you're gone, but it doesn't give you any sort of guidance as an individual

>>7768322
It is, but it's not really advantageous for you. Just accept that the forces that be have decreed your putrid, nacreous corpse will become fodder for the smaller creatures of nature. That is your guidance as an individual coping with infinite possibility.

>>7768151
Confucius is secondary. Lao Tzu and to some extent Zhuangzi is where it's at. Tao Te Ching is one of the few books which truly is the antidote to many western issues.

>>7768358
Coping is just coping. Again, I dont disagree with you, and its a comforting sentiment, but I believe true happiness comes from flourishing as a human being and being the best that you can be

>>7768377
Well, for me to be the best that I could be, I'd have to kill you, so that I could enjoy the blissful extemporaneity of nature's transference.

>>7768387
Umm ok...

This has taken an eerie turn..

>>7768391
JUST SHUT UP AND LET ME HAVE MY WAY, ANON

>>7768194
> As a result depression, anxiety, and a general sense of lack of direction plauge the west.
These are worse than the majority of his ideas? I'm sorry, if you think Confucius is a great philosopher you need to combat these with more updated ideas like every other philosopher has done over the course of humanity. Saying "Muh depression" "muh social anxiety" won't solve shit. Please write a goddamn book or shut up

>>7768415
>These are worse than the majority of his ideas?
Infinitely

>write a book or shut up
So opinions are only valid if you write an entire book to support them? Where's your book?

>>7768415
Why the fuck are you so upset? This is just a discussion about philosophy. Every major philosopher has outdated ideas, it doesn't make their philosophy bad though. Jesus christ man calm the fuck down

>le oriental sage

>>7768305
How is trying to serve those states necessarily bad? Dude was just trying to restore the Way in the only way he had available.

Also he taught students and only asked food as payment. That's pretty good.

>>7768430
>How is trying to serve those states necessarily bad?
how is it necessarily good then, I call that careerist

>he taught students and only asked food as payment
mfw 老子 taught him for free, 墨子 taught his students in a sorta kibbutz way, 鬼谷子 lived with his two students up in the mountain by themselves
he charged for multiple 束脩 for fuck's sake

>>7768271
>he thinks Plato's morality counts as logical reasons

>>7768296
Whoever made that parable probably didn't understand Confucius or knew little shit about his life

>>7768437
Read Simon Leys essay on Confucius

I feel like one could blame the crippling conformity of Asian society on Confucianism pretty easily.

>>7768151

Confucius is probably my favourite philosopher; for the simple reason that his Analects are essentially one big "fuck you" to the toxic cult of individualism that prevails in the West today. Not only that, but the importance he places on tradition/etc is pretty invaluable in this age of moral/cultural relativism.

However, >>7768194 has a point; he's not much use in societies where these concepts are dead. Like many things, once they die they're almost impossible to revive.

Luckily, large parts of Asia still abide them; even if maintaining a weird synthesis between Confucian 'ideals' (among others) and modern-day technology/knowledge.

Conformity is king; the few should suffer on behalf of the many, not vice versa.

>>7768273

Read his Analects.

>>7768296

Lao Tzu's fine, but a glorified stoic. Confucius was more worldly; around 50% of what he taught was for the purpose of becoming a successful Junzi (Gentleman/Official).

>>7768437

>how is it necessarily good then, I call that careerist

Most of what he taught was about making a living, you idiot; most of his disciples were dirt poor.

Nonetheless, it was not only about this; but also doing good in your post, and in doing so progress. Ultimately, he longed for a return to the Shao(?) state; what he advised was namely to help getting by on what may have been this pursuit.

Hell, there were times when they were starving and near death whilst looking for work.

>>7768461

And you'd be right; although there's nothing 'crippling' about it. Individualism is far worse.

>>7768459
maybe I will

>>7768474
pic

>>7768474
As an Asian living in the West (admittedly with Western ideals) I am curious as to what your own background is.

I see Asian conformity and find it horrible. It's an agonizing culture that has only become worse with the introduction of technology. Individualism still exists but it is entirely private, or conducted through smartphones and in chat rooms. I get the sense that you have some rural Chinese hamlet in mind when you speak so highly of tradition, but think about this conformity with respect to the modern day. It is a technological nightmare.

It is also insanely damaging to discourse when your culture dictates that the worst thing you can do is put yourself forward and be wrong. That might sound like an oversimplification, but it's the reason the humanities are dead in Asia. There is absolutely no realm of thought you can academically explore in Asia without people asking for schematics on how to do it.

The East-Asian identity itself has become the embodiment of standing-reserve.

>>7768483

I've actually read Confucius, and plenty more. Can you say the same, you fucking moron?

>>7768487

Well I'm a Westerner who's lived in Asia; for several years, 6-8 months at a time.

Prior to this, I've spent most of my time in universities as a researcher; chiefly in cities throughout the UK and, to a lesser extent, America.

Let's just say I don't miss much. Special snowflakes were abound, the entitlement rampant; not to mention the general degeneracy as a consequence of the Sexual Revolution/etc.

Now, that's not to say the latter doesn't exist in Asia; I can walk into a 'Family Mart' in Tokyo and find fucking hentai at a child's eye level. However, the difference is this; the worst aspects of Asian culture are typically out in the open, yet people rarely subscribe to it; never mind 'embrace' it.

In the West, however, this stuff is much more private; yet increasingly, particularly with younger generations, you will find their lives revolve around it.

I'm not as familiar with China as I am with Japan, but every non-weeaboo knows that Japanese culture is essentially the bastard son of China's; in the same way that British culture, thanks to the Empire, predominates in the West.

I've seen a great deal of the world, and have been left increasingly convinced that conformity is king. I'll sum up my thinking with the following:

Burke said that society is a contract "between those who are living, but between those who are living, those who are dead, and those who are to be born."

The West has forgotten and/or ignored the fact that the dead are included in this; in many minds, the dead are just dead. Ergo, society in their minds involves nothing more than the living and those yet to be born; which destroys concepts like 'tradition' to their very core.

Going further back in time, the Anglo-Saxons had a saying to the effect that a tree without roots will not stand; taking our ancestors out of our societal equations, or abandoning what they taught, is the surest way to become that tree. Asians place far more importance in their roots, thanks to Confucius/etc.

>>7768504
>孔子,哲学家不足道,圣人亦不足道,只是个庸俗高知。
and maybe so are you

>奇在复杂固执,智商很高,精通文学、音乐,讲究吃穿。他欲望强盛,种种苛求,世界满足不了他,一定要把不可告人的东西统统告人。 所以虚伪,十分精致地虚伪——食不厌精,脍不厌细,割不正不食,君子死不免冠,君子远庖厨,秋穿什么皮衣,冬穿什么鹿皮,三月不做官,惶惶如也。父亲做坏事,儿子要隐瞒,满人,赌咒,等等

too hierarchical for my tastes from the (very) little i know

and judging by this guy >>7768504 i doubt i'm too far off the mark

>>7768517

>Having this much of a hate-boner for Confucius

I guess he offends your toxic individualist sensibilities.

>Insignificant
>Vulgar

Ad hominem.

>"A variety of demanding, the world cannot meet him"

Something that's been said of practically every significant moral teacher throughout history. Jesus Christ, for one.

The point is not necessarily that everyone CAN meet them, but that it is better to try; and that they are better for trying.

>All the rest

He was reflective of the traditions already present in his time; and merely embodied them in his own life.

You're acting like he came up with all these things themselves; a fundamental, yet unsurprising misunderstanding.

Don't act like the West doesn't (and/or never) had any rules of etiquette/etc.

>>7768530

Of course. He's not popular with bohemians and libertines.

>>7768532
I wish you a good day
or actually night

>>7768533

Good night, lad.

>>7768194
>>7768532
How could someone be so spooked?
Fuck off, I am the unique one, the creative nothing.

>>7768561

>

Stirner was the original fedora.

>>7768454

Explain. Also, 'whoever' are the Chinese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters

>>7768504
You sound like a huge fag

>>7768603
>the Chinese
What, they all came together one day to make a parable? Nice.

First post. Just wondering if this thing actually works.

>>7768566
Epic meme
>>>/pol/

Confucius is the Asian Aristotle? (virtue ethics)

>>7768744
sorta

>>7768194
One thing though: once traditional structures have been given up they can't be reverted to.

I don't like him, he is the reason why asians are fucking robots whose social interactions are based on rigid panels and causes barriers between people. This mindset is why Japanese men can't into sex and become absolutely autistic awkward degenerates. I can't fathom the thought why someone in the 21st century would find the subtle death of individualism ideal.

>>7768783
Where to start with him? Best translations?

>>7768619
>>7768697

>/lit/ is full of special snowflakes

Who knew?

>I can't fathom the thought why someone in the 21st century would find the subtle death of individualism ideal.

Because individualism is working out so well for men right now, right? Of the straight white variety, specifically.

>>7768808
Still better than social restrictions that are the equailivent of teenage peer pressure on a larger scale, autist.

>>7768797
mfw I'm a native chink myself
and my answer is don't, unless you want learn the radix of some oriental faggotory
but to overcome some inherent occidental faggotory of yours maybe you Should read about him? Consult other anons here
and you have to admit he is a stylist
and our literacy don't consider Confucianism a religion

>>7768810

>Still better than social restrictions that are the equailivent of teenage peer pressure on a larger scale

That's what society is built on, autist.

Culture and social norms are built on either peer pressure or the strict enforcement of law. I know which I prefer.

>>7768812
> that entire post

>>7768815

In fact, adding to this, a lot of what Confucius referred to was PRECISELY that point; namely, that a society that doesn't live under this sort of peer pressure will be ran under law, and will be worse off for it.

You have traditions, which most people will subscribe to and enforce through expectation/peer pressure/shunning/etc.

Or you have law; which will be enforced, whether most people subscribe to it or not, through violence/imprisonment/etc.

'Peer pressure' is nothing more than a how a society runs itself organically. Law, on the other hand, is artificial; and can be used, as we see today, to have the many at the mercy of the few.

>>7768808
>Of the straight white variety, specifically.
Uz poor poor strayt menz.

>>7768504
>conformity is king, said the special snowflake gweilo who just had to go live in a culture not his own on the other side of the world

>>7768837

>>/tumblr/

>>7768855

I work there, that's it. I'm under no illusions of what I am or where I call home.

I do in Rome as the Romans do. That's it.

>>7768856
> >> and not >>>
You're a failure.

>>7768862

>>>/reddit/

>>7768861
I see, you made a good point otherwise to be honest.

Have you read Houellebecq's Soumission? It's an apt display of a society that places individualism above all else being taken over by a cultural force that has not yet abandoned collectivism and traditionalism.

Individualism als the ideal of a collective is pretty absurd in the first place to be honest, it can and will not last.

>>7768864
It's learning! Maybe one day you won't be a shitlord either.

>>7768829
See, I almost agree with you, but I have a feeling that our ideas of who "the many" and "the few" are are completely opposite each other.

Mohism is better, just kill anybody you don't want to be alive.

>>7768871

I've seen it advertised/praised all over the place; on /lit/ and otherwise.

I agree with the premise, however; a society of individuals is a contradiction in terms.

>>7768882

Probably.

What are you spooks up to?

>>7768829
As a law student I just can't see law as a d&d evil villain as you lot do. It's artificial, but good statutes based on the given country's consuetudes and general morals with an impeccable court and litigation process blows any "shunning" out of the water. It may be alright as a base of laws but not a means to substitute it. Without enforcement there is no order existent.

Of course in shit tier countries (even in mine, Hungary) courts are corrupt as fuck and shit but if it works right it is the perfect companion to today's dominant individualism, which is not essentially collective of "snowlfakes", even this term alone in this thread shows this is a Vietnames scat board with degenerates.

Sure is spooky in here.

>>7768151

> "Paying respect to spirits, but keeping away from them, you can call wisdom.”

Fuck you Confucius, I do what I want

>>7769122
the succubus doesn't love you back senpai

>>7769131

My mentor spirit loves me. She tells me to do productive things, like read literature, go to lectures, and cut myself.

Confucius was based as fuck family.

13. The Vanity of Reputation

Yang Chu said:

“The world praises Shun-Yu, Duke Chow, and Confucius, and condemns Chieh and Chow. Now Shun had to plough in Ho-yang and to burn tiles in Lei-tse. His four limbs had no rest, and rich food and warm clothing were unknown to him.

“His parents and his kinsfolk did not love him, and his brothers and sisters did not bear him affection.

“In his thirtieth year he was obliged to marry without telling his parents.

“When he received the empire from Yao he was already an old man and his mental powers were declining. His son Shang-Chun having no talents, he left the imperial dignity to Yü. Still he had to toil and slave till he died.

“Of all mortals he was the most pitiable and miserable.

“Kun's services in regulating the water and earthworks being impracticable, he was put to death on Mount Yu Shan.

“Yü, his son, continued his task, served his enemy, and spent all his energy on the earthworks. When a son was born to him he could not take him in his arms, nor in passing his door did he enter. His whole body became withered, his hands and feet hardened by toil. When Shun yielded the empire to him he still lived in a small house and wore only an elegant sash and a coronet. He also had to toil and slave till he died. Of all mortals he was the most overworked and fatigued.

“When King Yü died Cheng was still of tender age, and Duke Chow became Prince Regent.

“The Duke of Chow was dissatisfied, and spread evil rumours about Chow throughout the empire. Chow stayed three years in the east, caused his elder brother to be beheaded and his younger to be banished, and nearly lost his own life. Till he died he had to toil and slave.

“Of all mortals, he was the most menaced and terrorised.

“Confucius was well acquainted with the principles of the old emperors. He accepted the invitations of the princes of his time. But a tree was felled over him in Sung and his footprints were wiped out in Wei. In Shang and Chow he came to distress, was assaulted in Chen and Tsai, humiliated by Chi and insulted by Yang-hu.

“Till he died he had to toil and slave.

“Of all mortals he was the most harassed and worried.

“All these four sages, while alive, had not one day's pleasure, and after their death a reputation lasting many years.

“Yet reputation cannot bring back reality.

“You praise them and they do not know it, and you honour them and they are not aware of it. There is now no distinction between them and a clod of earth.

(cont.)

>>7769991
“Chieh availed himself of the wealth of many generations, and attained to the honour of facing south as king. His wisdom was sufficient to restrain his many subjects, and his power great enough to shake the land within the four seas. He indulged in what was agreeable to his eyes and ears, and fulfilled his heart's desires. He was gay and merry till death.

“Of all mortals he was the most reckless and dissipated.

“Chow also availed himself of the wealth of many generations, and became King.

“Everything yielded to his will.

“Abandoning himself to his desires through the long night, he indulged in debauchery in his seraglio. Nor did he embitter his life with propriety and righteousness.

“He was merry and gay till he was put to death.

“Of all mortals he was the most licentious and extravagant.

“These two villains while alive took delight in following their own inclination and desires, and after death were called fools and tyrants. Yet reality is nothing that can be given by reputation.

“Ignorant of censure and unconscious of praise, they differed in no respect from the stump of a tree or a clod of earth.

“The four sages, though objects of admiration, were troubled up to their very end, and were equally and alike doomed to die.

“The two villains, though detested and hated by many, remained in high spirits up to the very end, and they too were equally doomed to die.”

>>7769993
>tfw someone saves your yangzi

>>7768641

Before the internet there were memes, anon.

>>7768876
Oldfag here. STFU and leave /lit/

>>7770039
And seeing how memes are usually spread by people with the least knowledge other than parroting...

literally
>MUH TRADITIONS

His only care appeared to be the controlling of the populace via intricate social ritual. When you read The Analects as instructions for a ruler (as was its purpose), then you will see how little he cares about the individual. Contrary to what that other anon was saying, this is hardly an antidote to 'toxic individualism'. It's more like 'shut up, fit in, and society will run smoothly, because we leaders know best'.

>>7768151
From the very little I know about basic Confucianism, "subordinates obey the superior" is because Confucius is a superior who has subordinates. Basically a narcissist.

About personal reason, I grow up as hating my family's Asian tradition,

>>7770321
He also was a subordinate to superiors you fucking idiot. And of you dislike your superior, stop being their subordinate

>>7770304
>It's more like 'shut up, fit in, and society will run smoothly, because we leaders know best'.
You clearly have never read anything by him since he specifically says to improve yourself as an individual first and perfect the relationships in your household, so that your family will go out into the world and do the same. Improve the empire by improving yourself, not via blind obedience

>>7770027
It's actually a picture of Mozi, check his wikipage.

>>7770481
but it's such a nice meme pic for the chinese stirner.

what will we do now?

>>7770321
See
>>7770450

Rather than feeble bitching about tradition, you really said more about your pathetic self-entrapment than Asian ideology. China's political philosophy has the concept of the Will of Heaven, which does not give rulers supreme right over others, but grants the power of rule as long as that rule is virtuous and prosperous. If you hate your parents, get away from them.

>>7770495
Why did you quote my reply to him again? I'm sure he saw it the first time

But yah you're right

>>7770304

>Contrary to what that other anon was saying, this is hardly an antidote to 'toxic individualism'. It's more like 'shut up, fit in, and society will run smoothly, because we leaders know best'.
>Implying that isn't the absolute fucking panacea for toxic individualism

>>7770491
I said nothing about using it no more, property. If they care about the face of a man dead thousands of years ago, their problem; if it leads to them learning about another sage, their gain; if they never know, it doesn't matter.

Confucuck set back Eastern Philosophy hundreds of years tbqhwy.

>>7770513
that's a nice attitude desu my unique friend

>>7770515
Sure

Here's your free reply

>>7770515

>4000+ y/o society
>Caring about the lofty judgement of a Westerner whose society probably didn't stop being shit until around 2000 years ago

>>7770503
It's like those lotteries based on number of entries. Gotta link as much as possible, baby.

I prefer chuang tzu's confucius

>>7768164
Legalism is just proto-Behaviorism though... and Behaviorism is proto-nihilism.

>>7770535
More like 1000 years ago, maybe even less. Who knows with the reprobates who browse 4chan.

>>7770557

This is mental gymnastics at its most retarded.

>>7770571
"Retarded", and yet still far more substantive than your contribution to the discussion. :)

>>7770583
Not him, but you didn't even transition your thoughts in a logically clear way. You suck at talking to people in real life, right?

3/10

>>7770591
>Not him
lol
Yes you are. Back to your froghole.
>>>/r9k/

>>7770510
>toxic individualism
>This is a real thing that is real and really exists, guys! I'm serious!

>>7770597

>>7770591
The core tenet of Legalism is material rewards and punishments that elicit desired results are all that matter, just as in Behaviorism, stimulus evokes response, and any inner life is downplayed or disregarded entirely.

Wow, it's an impossible leap of logic! It's madness!

>>7770610
lol
Back to your hole, little froggy.

>>7770599
It is you fucking moron

>>7770643
>waahh poopsie doopsie
>>>/r9k/

>>7770644
What?

Guys, guys, guys.

I'm not that well read. How is Confucianism referenced in works like Outlaws of the Marsh and Romance of the Three Kingdoms?

I've read Monkey, that was more about Buddhism and the road to "getting it" though.

China's literature is fascinating. To have a better notion about how its culture relates to its literature would broaden my world view, hence I ask for your help.

>>7770649
I gave you a link that will explain.

>>7770643
I haven't heard the term before in any serious academic context. If you mean to suggest that SJWism is an emergent phenomenon of excessive individualism you're about as close to objectively wrong a guy can possibly get on this board.

>>7770599
So narcissism isn't a real thing? People dont invent things like gender and race identities to feel unique? And people dont try to actively force the majority of society to respect them for no reason other than they feel that its owed to them? People dont contribute nothing to their society in pursuit of fulfilling their own selfish desires?

>>7770677
Terminology hijacking is the latest technology in memetic warfare.

>>7770677
Its not an academic term, but you know what it refers to. I think they are referring to the rise of post modernist philosophy and cultural relativism

>>7770557
Nothing wrong with that, femily

>>7770718
>nothings wrong with nihilism
Kek. 2edgy

>>7768808
>Because individualism is working out so well for men right now, right? Of the straight white variety, specifically.
Yes, because those problems are being caused by individualists and NOT people who want them to conform to their standards.

>>7770678
>So narcissism isn't a real thing?
Narcissism implies two people are comparable, i.e. aren't really unique individuals.

>People dont invent things like gender and race identities to feel unique?
Being constrained by definitions is the last thing an individual needs; those people give themselves those in order to save face in front of others.

>And people dont try to actively force the majority of society to respect them for no reason other than they feel that its owed to them?
Nothing is owed to an individual beside what they are capable of.

>People dont contribute nothing to their society in pursuit of fulfilling their own selfish desires?
And for whose benefit do they contribute to society if not their own?

You really don't understand individualism at all.

>>7770468
And you know as well as I do if you've read the text, that the way he wants individuals to improve is by taking up the rites and values of how they used to do it back in the good ol' days of the Zhou kings. Personal development is literally reduced to following the archaic social rituals of the past because via my rose tinted glasses, society was better back then. I mean, it took the Mohists to introduce any semblance of pragmatic thought onto the scene.

>>7770742
By individualism I mean selfish people who are more interested in fulfilling their own desires rather than nurturing healthy or productive relationships with their society. I think technology has been a big catalyst for this honestly, its now easier than ever to alienate yourself from others and live in your own private echocamber and feel right about everything. Maybe its a phase every generation goes through, the "I know more society I'm better off just doing me" attitude. The millennials are certainly going through it right now.

>>7770744
Everything you said is simply false. He gives very specific guide lines for bettering yourself, which is seeking knowledge, using knowledge to determine good and bad, and applying it to your life. Nowhere does he say you should blindly conform to society's standards if society is clearly wrong about something.

>>7770557
>proto-nihilism
How is it proto-nihilism if nihilism is older than behaviorism? Also legalism isn't nihilistic because it still places value on things, namely order, behaviorism could be seen as nihilistic though since it's purely analytical.

>>7770803
>seeking knowledge, using knowledge to determine good
Which he says is dervied from the rites as set down by the Zhou kings.

>Nowhere does he say you should blindly conform to society's standards if society is clearly wrong about something.
And nowhere do I imply that he says this. It's not about conforming to society. It's about conforming to the old fashioned ways. His ideal learned gentleman (ru) is someone who has such knowledge of the rites and social rituals of the past (li) that they unconsciously respond to everday scenarios with actions in line with li.

>>7770828
Well I agree that is archaic and shouldn't be followed that literally, every philosopher has said dumb and outdated things. Its the back bone of his philosophy that is important, not the semantics

>>7770803
>its now easier than ever to alienate yourself from others and live in your own private echocamber and feel right about everything.
And yet all those people are always the ones that have big ideas about society. Or do you not know what SJW is an acronim of? Or is /pol/ not constantly going about something going wrong? Do terrorists fight for their own good or do they wish to bring heaven on earth? The only difference between the people you complain about and those you fear is their willingness to do violence.

>>7770865
Again, sjws and /pol/tards exist in internet echo chambers. They circle jerk each other and think they're correct on everything, but if you've ever met an sjw or /pol/ lurker in real life, they're always pathetic lonely outcasts. Both share the "its me vs society" mindset.

Sjws: "The evil white man and patriarchy is gonna make me conform!"

/pol/: "The evil Jews and politically correct media is gonna make me conform!"

They both hate the society they live in and think it should be reformed to fit their personal narratives

>>7770865
I dont understand, you sound like you're agreeing with me.

>people on the internet exist in their own echo chambers
>they develop fringe world views that contradict societal norms

How is this disagreeing with me, and what do terrorists have to do with any of this?

>>7770884
Which lends to the idea that they deserved to get kicked in the face by society in the first palce.

>>7770900
>Which lends to the idea that they deserved to get kicked in the face by society in the first palce
Yes. Whats your point?

>>7770884
>They both hate the society they live in and think it should be reformed to fit their personal narratives
And you are any different?

>>7770904
I'm just here for the popcorn antics while you two go at it.

>>7770908
Yes. I think I'm probably right on some things and wrong on others. I acknowledge no one knows everything and I work to learn what the right and wrong thing is.

>>7770926
But you think there is something wrong with society, don't you?

>>7770934
Sure. No society is perfect. Where are you going with this?

>>7770722
Nothing edgy about nihilism either, famely.

>>7770945
Oh, you're one of those "everything is fine always" nihilists and probably a moral relativist too I bet. In that case you're retarded

>>7770935
And if you could get the resources to change society, would you?

>>7770959
No, I am no moral authority and would likely fuck it up.

>>7770934
I think there's something wrong with society, doesn't mean I think I know how to fix it.

>>7770968
But if you could get the moral authority to do it, would you?

>>7770955
Nice straw person, brother.

>>7770980
Part of grasping morality would be, understanding that he could only answer that, after he obtained moral acumen.

>>7770980
>if you could get the moral authority
Not him, but you realize that question is basically 'but you would do this if you changed into the kind of person who would do this?'

>>7770980
>>7770980
Sorry for the late response, but basically these
>>7771000
>>7771013

>>7771000
>>7771013
>>7771026
Then are you supposed to never act?

>>7771080
All action is not tantamount to changing society.

>>7771090
What is society if not the sum of all the actions by the sum of all people?

>>7771097
Society is the sum of some actions by all people, not all actions by all people. And of those actions that are a part of society, only those going against the norm would be changing it.

>>7771080
000 trips here.

I'm not sure what your queries waxing on naivete are intended to effect, but they come across as alarmingly solipsistic.

There are more people in the world than merely me. Some of those people are better men than I, so I do not claim to be able to do a better job at being judicious than them. If there is a situation where there are no good people, and injustice will spread unless acted upon, then I will attempt to cultivate my sense of ethics and morality. That I would wait upon the actions of others, and weigh my morality relative to others, is evidence that I am not ideally suited to understanding or applying ethics.

>>7771106
Then moral authority is needed only when going against the norm?

>>7771116
How is it solipsistic? And why is would that be bad?

>Some of those people are better men than I
According to whom?

>>7771119
No. It's needed when going against the norm, but no one said that was the only time it was needed.

>>7771139
According to a sophist, donchaknow

>>7771139
Seems to me that you need to answer some questions

>>7768151

confucious was terrible.

he was really just about social security for old people.

basically everything he said was to protect old people. to saddle young people with care and respect for old people who woudlnt otherwise matter

>>7771141
When else is it needed?

>>7771147
Which?

>>7768808
Continue posting those epic memes, but over here >>>/pol/
Not on /lit/

>>7771150
>When else is it needed?
Ask the guy you were originally talking to, I was just pointing out a flaw in your premise. Also if you're still doing this with the original aim was trying to prove that he's similar to the people he hated in some abstract way you're gonna be up all night circling back to it.

>>7771168
>Also if you're still doing this with the original aim was trying to prove that he's similar to the people he hated in some abstract way you're gonna be up all night circling back to it.
I forgot about that around six posts back.

>>7771174
So you're just in it for the sport then, carry on.

>>7771191
I'm interested in seeing what others thinks, it's more fun than repeating my own ideas.

>>7771194
>seeing what others think
That's the sport.

Ezra Pound considered Fascism (mostly the Italian kind, I think) to be the authentic heir of Confucianism.

Whatever that means.

>>7772774
this. tell me more.

I am also interested in the philosophy of Confucius OP.

>>7775951

Read his Analects. Superficially simple, but you could read them for at least a decade and still come to new conclusions.

>>7775957
What else though? I'm interesting on building beyond his own specific thoughts and writings.

>>7768194
This seems to be an Evola-ist reading of Confucius. I would first suggest reading the Mencius, and then read Herbert Figarette's "Confucius: the Secular as Sacred."

Confucius is less concerned with "muh tradition" than the ability of a community to bond through common action. He promotes the way of the Scholar over that of the Warrior, a struggle found present in every country on the planet. He advocates goodness through constant learning, a concept still radical today.

>>7778280

>Confucius is less concerned with "muh tradition" than the ability of a community to bond through common action

And the best form of common action just happens to be tradition. You're kinda dodging the point.

The rest is fine; hardly in opposition to what Evola was arguing; unless you can find any instances where he prohibits learning.

>>7777741
The 3 volume study Confucian China and its Modern Fate

>>7778297
Not tradition in the western sense, but rather ritual as common action. You can create a "new" ritual, and as long as the community accepts it, it is as valid as any tradition in the past.

Traditions brought to the present often lack the gravity of action and reverence needed to preserve the social cohesion of a group. If people are distracted at all (i.e. children sitting in church, twiddling their thumbs), "tradition" will dissolve.

And yes, Evola is not in opposition to learning. I actually greatly admire him for that: he seeks both answers in the present and in the past. I was merely saying that most of the world has yet to adopt Confucian "goodness."

>>7778297
Read this

http://neojaponisme.com/2005/02/11/orthodoxy-vs-orthopraxy/

>>7778329
Thanks.

He's into submitting to authority for the sake of "but it's tradition", and bureaucracy and doing whatever your parents say.

He would be the most uncool, old-fashioned philosopher around if he was an old Catholic saint or something but because he's eastern dumbfuck college kids go "ooh he's so mystical, I love eastern wisdom, let me read a cherry picked book of quotes and feel deep for 20 minutes".

>>7778378
interesting, thanks

>>7778635

And yet, he's entirely correct. The truth of a philosophy is not measured by its interest, pleb.

>>7768474
That is easily the ugliest girl i have ever seen and i have over 30 GB of rekt stuff.

>>7780306

One philosophy is not more "correct" than another, it's about finding one that 's meaningful to you.

>>7778635
>implying "old-fashioned philosophers" are worthless

OMG yu so cool n hip
Go crouch down a corner and drool over nietzche until you pass out, pleb.

>>7782141

Fuck these kids with their nietzche lol I like cool old philosophers you probably never heard of DAE born in le wrong generation?