/lit/ - Literature

Explain how the logical conclusion of Marxism isn't Anarchism.

>>7556596
>trusting plebs not to ruin everything
If you want a livable society you need an elite, whether you mean philosopher-Kings or divinely selected monarchs.

>>7556622
A society ruled by philosopher kings would be neat, but I'm afraid I wouldn't make the cut.

>>7556627
>but I'm afraid I wouldn't make the cut.
There aren't even enough near-philosopher kings for a given society to be able to choose actual ones.

>not realising the AI will be the philosopher king

>>7556592

the Left is brain-dead.

>>7556627
>>7556634
You would only need one.

The only way anything has ever happened are people taking power by force.

What don't you get exactly?

It's literally the most proven, plausible path for communism to happen.

All Zizek is trying to do is to convince the public that something can be authoritarian and not bad, which is, again, a plausible -- though certainly never proven -- idea. Perhaps we have learned something from history and can do better. Why the fuck not?

>>7556646
no u

>Leninism will never work, they said

Comminism doesn't require a vanguard.

I agree with whoever said that anarchism is the logical conclusion of marxism, it is.

>>7556634
For all the scientists and mathematicians and philosophers in the world, I'm sure there are more than enough philosopher kings.

>>7556592
The vanguard doesn't have to be an official political party modeled after capitalist society. It can be a group of Marxists willing to kick off the revolution. For the urban guerrillas of the 1970s, this meant provoking a response in their countries to reveal just how thin the border between neoliberal capitalism and fascism is. But it backfired because the general public in say, West Germany, were little bitches who preferred aiding the Vietnam War and villainizing leftists to the point of assassinations rather than a people's revolution.

Alternatively, the vanguard can be a group of people who agree to work out the logistics of a soviet setup and then bow down once that's installed. Optimistic, but I firmly believe you have to be optimistic to see Marxist theory work in praxis. I also believe in a true soviet system of communism as opposed to one party/state to rule them all, which is barely disguised capitalist imperialism.

>the problem with socialism is that it's economically backwards, they said

>>7556664
>"You're welcome."

Yet so much of the left opposes gun rights. They're basically asking for fascist tyranny.

>>7556686
That's simple minded and you know it.
>Venezuela
>therefore it doesn't work

>>7556686
Chinks are also genetically modifying human embryos.

Literally engineering the communist New Man.

>>7556699
Intelligence: 10/10
Obedience: 10/10

>>7556664

was Lenin's plan to genocide the Chinese ?

>>7556706
You can learn to be not obedient though.

>>7556723
for now senpai

>>7556622
>implying plebs are transhistorical and not just products of capitalist education

>it's okay, the market can solve everything, they said

>>7556729
>if only plebs were properly educated with our pleb system
yeah nah

>>7556592
Destroying hierarchy =/= hierarchy. Even if it did, there's nothing wrong with that when your exercise of power is justified and reasoned. Anarchists and communists all will accept hierarchy at many points in their life, but because there is a reason, and it is not a detriment or it is helpful (ie there will be hierarchy in university, professors exercising authority over grading papers. this is fine, since the professor is going to help educate you, and this exercise of authority is not at all harmful and even the opposite).

>>7556739
>you are special you're the only one you're the only one like you
yeah nah

>>7556664

>china
>working

pick one.

don't be fooled by this relatively brief chinese period of "success." even that's way too strong of a word. what's happening there is wholly unsustainable and will crash unless they switch to full democracy or democratic socialism. there's too many people and technology is too great and will become too pervasive for that government to block it.

>>7556747
No one implied that though
>justmongoloidthings

>>7556744
What the fuck is capitalism then?
You choose to work for a boss you choose to have that relationship

I dont understand, please help me.

>>7556775
You don't choose it. You work or you die. 'Choice' in that sense implies freedom. There's no freedom in either working or dying.

>>7556750
Yeah yeah

>

>>7556783
NEET is the only revolutionary class we have. I think it will work as a Fatal Strategy. It will work perfectly with the postmodern implosion. I have so much hope the more less people work. We have to be careful that liberals and social democrats don't stop the NEETs for their capitalist masters tho.

>>7556750
I live and work in China. If anything it's the most sustainable country I've lived in for the past few years. Don't be fooled by western media - most people here are fine with the democracy they have, and almost all of the protests, riots, etc. are specifically not aimed at anything other than addressing specific grievances. It's chaotic over here, but as one Chinese person told me, "we like it that way". Economic problems exist, but I'm convinced that if any government in the world has the power to actually attempt to solve them it's this one.

>>7556642
Damn that's a sexy Pepe

>>7556775
Basically going Into the Wild? That's the choice. You either bow dow to the Bosses or grow your own tomatoes in a land which miraculously hasn't been bought by some mass landowner. Seems like a fair deal.

>>7556817
Give it 15 years and you'll die of lung cancer. Then this board will be free of your shitposts.

>>7556891
Never going away, comrade. Success breeds jealousy.

>>7556817

Well I've been there, too, anon. The people I talked to, the young in particular, love America (just as an example of the West) and are jealous of America. They see it on the internet when they're able to get through.

As more and more money flows in there, all those attitudes will change. The American Revolution started with specific grievances, too.

It is an unsustainable house of cards.

if there was ever an Iron Cage of rationality it is china. Literally 100s of millions of lives being wasted serving bourgeois production quotas/simulacra/consumption

>>7556916
The Nazis loved America too. Liking the pop culture and aspiring to the wealth of the US doesn't necessarily translate into anything more than that. I've spoken to a few young people who have mentioned Xi Jinping's "repression", but for the most part nothing more than that. Generally the most radical demands of the Chinese people are for a fairer version of their current system, not a complete conversion to western-style democracy, which isn't doing a very good job of impressing anyone right now. The stifled martyrs of liberalism crying out for change are a fantasy of a west that's still looking at China through the lens of 1989.

China isn't communist you fucking spastic
it's closer to fascism than anything else

>>7556729
Noble character and high intelligence have never been common. Families and individuals who cultivate those traits are drastically different from the plebs and this has been true since the early Greek philosophers came on the scene.

Capitalist education makes undiscerning consumers, but it's not hard to make people irresponsible and stupid.

>>7556815
NEETdom will only increase with jobs disappearing and automation increasing. Majority employment is on the way out.

>>7556817
What do you mean by sustainable?

>>7556941

>The Nazis loved America, too.

...and what happened to the Nazis?

>Generally the most radical demands of the Chinese people are for a fairer version of their current system...

You could say the exact same thing about the Americans before their Revolution.

>not a complete conversion to western-style democracy, which isn't doing a very good job of impressing anyone right now.

I can't and won't argue that.

>The stifled martyrs of liberalism crying out for change are a fantasy of a west that's still looking at China through the lens of 1989.

I'm sure that sounded great in your head but it sounds ridiculous in mine. That or your a Chinese agent yourself.

You aren't talking to a liberal. You're talking to a realist. Your country is doomed in its current state. Wake up, pal. It's unsustainable. The Russians have drunk themselves into a stupor and the North Koreans have stunted mental development.

If China wants to be the world power it wants to be it will have to convert. If it wants to grow and be sustainable and historic, it will have to adapt.

That's a fact.

>I would vote for Shanders if he implemented full communishm
what did he mean by this?

>>7556951
>leader has a PHD in Marxism, quotes Marx and Engels in his speeches regularly
>capital hosted a world congress on Marxism last year
>the commanding heights of the economy are nationalised
>ruling party is organised via democratic centralism
>spends huge amounts of money every year on promoting Marxist literature and theory
>it's fascist

>>7556970
I mean that having lived in Europe for most of the last few years, I've seen countries far closer to political and economic collapse than China.

>>7556974
But why is it unsustainable? You're operating on the assumption that there is a single successful model for governing a society despite also admitting that western democracy is not that model. So why would the Chinese assume that it is?

>>7556990
cool
do the workers own the means of production?

>>7556990
does china jus think this present moment of state capitalism is necessary to industrialize/create capital so they can being about a stateless non-hierarchal classless society in a few hundred years?

>>7556990
>I mean that having lived in Europe for most of the last few years, I've seen countries far closer to political and economic collapse than China.
Which ones?

>>7556916
America is basically a product. It sells bottles happiness, in a beautiful bottle, with a refreshing cold drink inside.
That's the advertisement of course, in reality America is just like Coca-Cola. A drink that's not really that good, and is terrible for your health (or your culture, just watch the Japanese nowadays). It sells itself as the Dream, it's not difficult to wonder why people who have nothing in the form of material goods, would want a Plasma TV, and a Mac, and go out to eat Pizza Hut everyday.

Why are Americans always pushing this 'CHINA IS ABOUT TO COLLAPSE ITS GOT NOTHING ON US BREHS' rhetoric?

Is it the fear talking or is that their media programming?

>>7557010
Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland... ring a bell

>>7557003
The party owns the means of production on behalf of the workers, so if the USSR was communist then so is China. Unless you're one of those "but that isn't REAL communism! just wait for the ACTUAL revolutionary movement" types, in which case this is a dead end of a conversation.

>>7557006
Yeah. Current Chinese theory is based around two premises - that Marx always maintained that socialism would arise out of capitalism, and therefore would require the mechanisms, systems and logic of capitalism to be established first, and that under the rule of the CCP class interests can always be subordinated to the will of the Party, which has the broad interest of the whole population as its priority. I don't know how valid any of this is yet, but they've certainly put a lot more thought into it than you'd assume at first.

>>7557010
What >>7557032 said, especially Greece and Italy. But also I'd say the UK as well.

>>7556990

I did not admit that western democracy is not that model in the slightest. I agreed with you that western-style democracy is not doing a good job of impressing anyone right now. There's an ocean between those two comments.

The only way autocratic and repressive government works is when there is no money and no technology, and China has only very recently started to get a lot of both. The government and the general ruling class over there can't keep it from everyone else forever.

The money and the tech is coming, anon, and it's going to be too overwhelming to ignore. It may take longer because they've been under control for so long, but mark my words, it's coming.

>>7557034
>The party owns the means of production on behalf of the workers
http://blogs.worldbank.org/eastasiapacific/state-owned-enterprises-in-china-how-big-are-they
>SOEs only accounted for 4.8 percent of total enterprise numbers but controlled 43.8 percent of total assets owned by surveyed firms

>>7557034
I'm the >>7557032 fag, it is true however that the objective of Communism, or at least Marxism, was not for the Communist Party, or the Vanguard, to rule over and determine the fate of the people. And Democratic Centralism has shown that, even though it is a great system and profoundly democratic it can be dominated by groups of people with reactionary ideas (And i am a member of a Party that has Democratic Centralism as its mean of organisation). The Children of the Arbat by Rybakov shows that it can easily be controlled.

>>7557020

Ah, here come the Chinese agents. Hi Chinese Intelligence! What are you guys calling yourselves now? When I was there, you guys hadn't really settled on a name...

>>7557063
It's not as if American Intelligence isn't hanging around everywhere.

>>7556596
For such a system to work, it needs the state to enforce its property norms, lack of currency and trade. However without those things, such a system will collapse itself if it is above a tribal population number.

>>7556655
Funny how reds say such a system is good, but needs to be forced onto people to be used.

>>7557018

lol. You don't understand America at all. And don't bring the Japanese into this. They've fell into an existential depression when they lost the war and the success of the Chinese has only made it worse. Hell, they've stopped fucking. THAT'S a country that's doomed.

>>7557049
But you're falling into the assumption that western democracy is also "coming", along with tech and money. Why? There is no reason for China to discard the CCP. There is no viable alternative. And again, you're speaking in general terms. Autocratic regimes usually fall to a spiral of expectations brought about by money and tech, yes. But the CCP has survived longer than almost any other. Everything is still up in the air

>>7557050
There's the SOEs and the "privatised" firms of the 1990s, which are in fact still CCP-controlled, they're just not listed as state assets. It's a very clever way of getting around the west's paranoia about Chinese SOEs, and of making former SOEs competitive while still retaining absolute veto power over their actions.

>>7557054
Oh aye, I'm not calling China an ideal model of socialist development or anything. But to deny that it's at least trying to be one seems very reductive.

>>7557034
>The party owns the means of production on behalf of the workers
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA THEN WHAT'S THE POINT?

>>7557063
It's always American posters that hate on China though. Europeans are never whining about them.

>>7557082
>There's the SOEs and the "privatised" firms of the 1990s, which are in fact still CCP-controlled, they're just not listed as state assets. It's a very clever way of getting around the west's paranoia about Chinese SOEs, and of making former SOEs competitive while still retaining absolute veto power over their actions.
cool can you source this?

>>7557074
all systems are established by force, lad.

>>7557078
M-Mishima, h-have you returned?

>>7557078
Explain America then? And try to explain what happened the Japanese without ignoring the power America held over them after the World War.
Are you American though?

>>7557088
Because Europe is hanging on by a bare thread and are in no position to talk

>>7556783
Woah woah woah no wait on a second
I have a choice to do ANYTHING I want

Even a choice to go live under a different economic system

You cant jsut go say its get a job or go be a survivalist
that's stupid

Life itself is work or die what system is not work or die?

Communism = work or die
Socialism = work or die
Capitalism = work or die
Primitivism = work or die
Anarchism = work or die


Life has all these systems in common
Life = work or die

>>7557082

>But the CCP has survived longer than almost any other.

Oh wow. Since 1921. Actually I'd probably argue 1949, when they took power.

>Everything is still up in the air.
>There is no viable alternative.

Yeah. Good luck with that, Chinese agent.

>>7556841
Lol yeah that's why you see so many unemployed people going to plough illegal feilds in national parks right?
Fucking think a little bit

Capitalism allows for these nice social policies to exist.

>>7557100

>Explain America
>on 4chan

You and I both know that's impossible to do in a place like this. Yes, I am American.

>>7557109
Failure to think beyond capitalism is a deficit in imagination and intelligence. Reminder that Marx believed capitalism was justified as a step in class conflict and even beneficial in some senses, such as helping to dispel old superstitions like religion. Socialism is just the next logical step for human beings who want the best for all classes.

>>7557109
Those nice social policies were introduced in the Soviet Union.
Those unemployed people are not living the dream. They are living in wooden sheds basically and the term usually used to describe them is "trash".

>>7557120
Sorry but I believe that belief is not correct
I think the next major step for humanity will not even be decided by humanity but by AI

It's a matter of time.

>>7557119
You just have to write a couple of sentences to describe it. What do you think is wrong about what I said?

>>7557120
I can't believe people still cling to this sort of thinking
the left is facing total collapse and they're still banging on like it's 1870

>>7556592
>>>/his/sniff

>>7557124
According to my beliefs, an AI programmed to think logically for the benefit of all humanity would enact socialism (followed by communism, at which point it would just supervise that system), so I'd be ok with that.

And if the AI wasn't programmed to think logically and/or for the benefit of humanity, it'd be tragic but easy to blame the programmer(s).

>>7557129
There's never been a socialist, let alone communist society enacted in a way I approve of, so I'm not clinging onto anything other than the blueprints, which will exist long after capitalism's collapse.

>>7557129
>Capitalism is the end of History
I suggest learning something about History.

>>7557094
How is capitalism forced exactly?

>>7557141
you are so caught up in ideology and you just don't realise it
a rational AI isn't going to get caught up in egalitarian fantasy
>>7557144
>enacted in a way I approve of
fuck me
the next 5 years are going to be VERY rough for you

>>7557094
Really? Don't know about you but doesn't look like capitalism was forced.

>>7557123
Cool they were employed then I'm not bashing the nicety of them
Disabled programs and mental health programs are great things and where would you have those people otherwise mate?
Await your revolutionary thoughts

>>7557103
It depends on which school of thought within Communism you're working under. There are forms of communism which are totalitarian or are completely set on notion of fulfilling sole need.

I'm not using 'work' in the sense of working in a field or doing dishes or bathing your kids. 'Work' within capitalism means being employed under a private owner in which you'll be paid much less than what they profit off of you. You're struggling to pay bills usually and they're sitting at the top of the food chain with more money than they can spend.

In communism it isn't about working, it's about /why/ you're working, which is why this school of thought overlaps with philosophy much of the time. Do you want to work for the community or do you want to work for a few private owners sitting in leather chairs and driving BMWs, which more money than they know how to spend?

>>7557141
Pure ideology
You got fucked in the arse by your own.

An AI beyond our comprehension coming up with something like that?
Please.

>>7557148
I never implied that
let's stop pretending communists don't think that communism is the end of history though

>>7557154
I'm not sure i understood what you said.

>>7557151
>a rational AI isn't going to get caught up in egalitarian fantasy
That conveniently leaves out half of the gist of my post. An AI that IS RATIONAL and programmed TO MAXIMIZE BENEFITS FOR THE WHOLE OF HUMANITY. Rationality is a method and the part you left out is the goal. Without a goal, of course the AI wouldn't get caught up in anything.

>the next 5 years are going to be VERY rough for you
Why would they be any more rough than the past 50?

>>7557164
They don't, they don't predict what would be the next step. This is enough to worry about for a couple centuries.

>>7557149
>>7557153
>we don't need peasants any more, now go be an urban factory prole or starve

>>7557164
>>7557171
Communism is the end of class conflict. At that point, identity politics would rightfully be the next step to work out a solution to. Unfortunately this generation is getting way ahead of themselves.

>>7557156
So I will change my whole system of economic beliefs on a set reason of why I should be working?
Will it make me feel better about the proverbial ditch digging I would be undertaking??
if I am a producer of weapons will I feel good about the use of those weapons?
Does a communities choice line up with my own?

>>7557153
If you don't work what happens? Thats is employing force, you either work for a boss and get some fun coupons you can spend in nice things also owned by bosses, thus circulating capitals, or you get raped by dept, thrown out of an hospital, don't have access to school, etc...
Furthermore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution_of_1848

>>7557169
>TO MAXIMIZE BENEFITS FOR THE WHOLE OF HUMANITY
this could mean a whole host of things
>programmed
it's not really an AI if it can't move beyond its programming

>>7557166
I'm saying those programs are nice and it's ok that other thoughts bought them into play but how is it bad that capitalism is able to provide those systems and maintain them?
Isn't that a testament to the strength of that particular ideology?

>>7557181
If your political philosophies change, then the economic beliefs change. You can't contradict yourself; if you are, then you haven't known enough about it

Who says you will be digging ditches? Could happen, sure, but you can also set up deals with the people around you so that you will dig for an hour, then the duty is passed onto someone else, and so on.

Not sure what you mean by the next line. Are you saying a job will be assigned to you without your consent? If so, that's incorrect.

A community will cooperate to reach a compromise everyone will be happy with.

>>7557185
>this could mean a whole host of things
You're right, and it would be up to the programmers to determine that meaning. I believe the answer lies in Marx.

>it's not really an AI if it can't move beyond its programming
What do you mean by that? Is it not abstract enough to program it to use rational logic and to give it a goal of maximizing benefits for humanity?

Or are you saying that a rational AI would become self-aware or whatever and decide that maximizing humanity's benefits isn't in its rational self-interest? That's fair, but we've gone full sci-fi at this point.

>>7557153
Yikes, you ever heard of colonialism, buddy? Or the Cold War?

actual trajectory of human systems coming up buckle in lads:
nationalism -> disintegration -> tech secession -> AI -> augmented reality -> simulated reality
most people will be lost along the way

>>7557089
I read it in Richard McGregor's great book "The Party".

>>7557195
Capitalism needs them to prevent social result, most of those things were introduced after popular demand and reaction. The destruction of the Soviet Union, no matter what you thought of it, led to a lot of this programs, not only in America but in Europe to started being put aside, etc.. Capitalism in itself demand for a big disparity between the owners and the workers, it is itself creating those social problems, so the fact that they create some nice programs to tackle poverty doesn't end the fact that they are themselves creating them.

>>7557207
This never happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

>>7557207
This Never Happened
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America–United_States_relations

This Never Happened
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

This Never Happened
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

This Never Happened
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Camelot

>>7557203
What reason would you have someone taking turns digging ditches when you could have them all digging ditches?

I am not saying a job will be assigned without my consent but will I really have a choice of job beyond capitalisms choice in a communist system?
I will not, Not much will change for me day to day right?
I will go to work for whatever company I agree to working for and only if they want to take me, I will put in my hours and receive a wage which will be heavily taxed.

Will I do a job like you propose with an hour of work and a supposed hour off?
No fucking way lol

Do you really equate communism with less work overall?

>A community will cooperate to reach a compromise everyone will be happy with.
And how will this be decided?
How will you make everyone in a community happy?

Will you have a majority rules democratic system or will there just be a fucking gulag?


Just admit the gulag and fuck off

>>7557207
>neoliberalism literally originates from the US destabilising a harmless soft-left socialist project and giving it to an idiot to use as his personal economic laboratory

Still mad.

>>7556695
Yeah, because rednecks with their hunting rifles, pistols, and weak ARs can compete with the strongest military to ever exist. Guns can't prevent fascist tyrannies from forming. They could when the amendment was made, but it's been dated for at least several decades.

>>7557210
Only the rich will "live on", and there's no correlation between that kind of wealth and intelligence or contribution to humanity's discourse, so it'll basically be a crapshoot

>>7557207
>the origin of something determine its current value and benefit

Every time.

>>7557242
yes that is essentially what I'm saying except
>there's no correlation between that kind of wealth and intelligence
is mostly wrong

>>7556642

Nick Land pls go

>>7557233
>>7557245
What's up with these red herrings? I shot down an idiotic statement, no need to invent additional arguments, capitalist-shills

>>7557250
No no, I was saying I was still mad, anon. I (>>7557233) am on your side.

>>7557247
Like happiness, there's a threshold. When you reach a comfortable upper middle class-tier income in the U.S., any gains to happiness afterward are minimal, if they exist at all.

Meanwhile, the most intelligent contributors mainly come from a leisure-tier class, in which they can gain and develop knowledge while their needs are taken care of. This can range from middle class on up, but you don't see significant differences between people with incomes of, say, $150k/year in the U.S. vs. millionaires or billionaires.

>>7557258
Apologies my friend

>>7557262
upper middle class is still extremely wealthy by global standards
the future belongs to the genetic elite

>>7557241
You sound like a coward. If you won't fight for your freedom when the odds are against you then you didn't deserve that freedom in the first place.

>>7556695
The American Left is not Left. Communist Parties usually advocate for the participation of every 18 year old in the military, so that they can all have military training.
Again, your American reality does not apply to any other country, don't get confused about things because of it.

>>7557241
>Yeah, because rice farmers with their hunting rifles, pistols, and weak ARs can compete with the strongest military to ever exist. Guns can't prevent fascist tyrannies from forming. They could when the amendment was made, but it's been dated for at least several decades.
>Yeah, because goat farmers with their hunting rifles, pistols, and weak ARs can compete with the strongest military to ever exist. Guns can't prevent fascist tyrannies from forming. They could when the amendment was made, but it's been dated for at least several decades.
you also are completely ignorant to how the contemporary American state works (protip: it's not unified)

>>7557279
Yes, because every leftist in Europe and Australia is a communist. Don't be so naive.

>>7557262
And that difference between the Rich and the Poor is mainly one of education and knowledge. The disparity between a rich man's education and a poor man's education is overall the most contributing factor for that.
A man working 12h a day since he was 16 cannot have the same kind of intelectual capacities as one who could go to college and whole well-being allowed him to live off his wealth and thus pursue knowledge, etc...

>>7557290
He just wants to justify the monopilisation of force by the state that he willfully agreed to.

>>7557184
And yet in the end, no one forces you to participate, which is not the reality in a communist system.

A period of compulsory national service for adolescents and young adults is such an attractive idea to me. Are there any good monographs on the subject?

>>7557292
They may not be Marxist-Leninist, but Leftists in Europe are very proud of their Marxist upbringing. I guarantee you that's the case. Even the most social-democratic of parties. The Portuguese Socialist Party, which is basically a softer tone of Liberalism (Not the Liberalism you Americans strangely use to describe the left) still have The Internationale as their Hymn, the ruling party of Italy descends from the Italian Communist Party, and the old hammer and sickle is still present in a small badge on their flag.
Those parties are not even considered Leftists, yet, Marxism still has historically a huge presence in most parties around Europe.

>>7557292
The European left is becoming much more radical these days. Give social democracy another decade to flounder, and once Corbyn, Podemos, Syriza, etc. have all disappointed everyone maybe then we can actually move forward.

>>7557298
Again, i'm not forced to participate? What if I decide I don't want to work for a boss. What happens next?

>>7557316
They still support state control of the population. But don't worry, soon you will have Shariah law and communists will be executed.

>>7557316
the European left is facing total collapse

>>7557319
You don't work for a boss, the next step is up to you. You don't have someone telling you what to do anymore.

>>7557292
You're right. "The long march through the institutions" that was theorized by the non-radical student Left in Europe of the 1960s is now in power, and what are they? Centre-left. Green. Democratic Socialist. Neoliberal capitalism with strong shades of socialism than the U.S., which isn't saying too much.

That said, they're at least open to the existence of farther Left parties in Europe (although plenty of Communist parties are outlawed there still, especially Maoist and Marxist-Leninist ones because those are the legitimate threats) and the public gives farther Left parties much more votes there.

>>7557325
And that's how you rebuild something. You let it burn down first.

>>7557319
Live off welfare
Live off Charity
Form a workers commune
Form a commune
Be homeless
Live in the wild
Live with parents
Self Employe

Also, are you telling me in a communist system, I would not be forced to work. Doesn't seem to be the result in history.

>>7557330
But what can I do? What are my options? I don't have any money. I can't buy myself a college degree. I can't afford a house, not a means of transportation. I need to buy food to live. What option is there for me to do?

>>7557298
What's a reason you would choose not to participate in communism? To make an exorbitant amount of wealth, stockpile and grow it, and buy things your fellow human beings couldn't even dream of? Shitty reason, pal.

>>7557337
>>7557330
Are Americans really this naive?

>>7557338
You could grow of scavenge food. You have to decide your own fate.

>>7557343
Do you really need to be spoonfed everything? Why aren't adults growing up anymore? You're all still whining little brats who want someone to support you while you sit there with your thumb in your arse.

>>7557342
Communism is the pinnacle of statism. Plus having some family live through the horror of Communist Germany, and some in Romania, no I am not exactly supportive of such evil and would gladly fight against such a system.

>>7557334
the left hasn't embraced that attitude at all
funnily enough the right has

>>7557343
>Implying

>>7557349
And so hateful, too! It's okay, anon. You can keep dreaming your romantic dreams about self-made men if you want to.

>>7557337
They worked shorted hours. they have paid vacations, they didn't need to worry about paying for a house, for their sons education, they wouldn't be fired and had a good reform waiting for them. 50% of the people who lived in the East Germany said they would be better off with the wall. After the initial impact of the tearing down of the wall, they realised what they were faced with... Basically the chance to be a bum. The alternative to working for a boss, to exploitation of your force for the profit of the owner of the means of production, is to be poor, live poorly, with safety, without nothing. That's the chance you imply exist, the simple choice which is actually no choice at all.
And I am a critic of the Soviet Union in many of those aspects, but what you are saying is not based on reality but a crude version you picked up off of TV.

>>7557354
They still believe they are the pioneers who faced the savage realities of a new continent :D

>>7557354
You go watch your cartoons, play your computer games and be a good little boy and maybe mummy will take you to McDonalds. You're only 25 after all, no shame in living with your parents, eh?

>>7557364
What's the matter? he just chose not to work for a boss, it apparently is as good and justified an options as working 12h a day.

>>7557374
Good and justified are abstract concepts with no concrete meaning.

>>7557350
My dad's parents both emigrated to the U.S. from Hungary during the failed revolution against Stalinism in 1956. They're ideologically blinded in their support of capitalism now. Don't let the oppression of those masquerading under communism during the horrifying 20th century turn you off from the economic theory.

I would gladly fight alongside you (as my grandpa did) against any system in which a ruling class exercised its rule over me through oppressive surveillance, illegitimate courts, and a general constant threat of violence for expressing myself non-violently. Those are not necessary to run a communist system in which every citizen is aware of the benefits and free to organize complaints through their local soviet.

>>7557381

>>7557376
Someone needs to get out of their parents basement after all.

>>7556750
what the fuck are you basing this on lmao

>>7557388
Cry more, manchild.

>>7557387
Please go back to Facebook/Buzzfeed/Gawker. I can tell you like catchphrases and buzzwords without having any interest in learning the specifics of complex ideas. Maybe polisci or phil was too tough for you in high school so you gave it up for your life. You're a loss, son.

>>7557398
How many immigrants did you adopt, Sven?

>>7557398
plz dont say you're own of those lads who supports Mao and says that the number of deaths is out of proportion, I've dealt with enough internet commtards in one day

>>7557381
The thing is, they were not masquerading, they were putting the theory into practice and the result was millions dead and some of the most oppressive regimes in history. You wouldn't fight them, you like every other useful idiot would fight with those monster's, all the while espousing some cheap form of a no true scotsman fallacy. What occurred in history is the reality of communism.

>>7556683
the scientist would be good politicians meme

found the liberal fantasising about science.

>>7557398
Stop crying in your borscht comrade, things will be gloriously when we are all #HavingTheFeelOfBern after the new president election.

There's nothing more facebook/buzzfeed/gawker than ignoring history and thinking that you're among the generation of special glittery snowflakes that will finally make the world an egalitarian utopia. I bet you have your genders in your Twitter profile. Faggot.

>>7557411
I admire his revolutionary tactics to win the battles to get to where he got, then I think he was pants-on-head retarded to try and jumpstart China over capitalism and even socialism into communism. This is more or less the consensus of the New Left in the U.S. since the '60s.

>>7557408
Oh, ok, /pol/ finally showed up

>>7557414
Wouldn't you say that the Soviet Union defending their interest in Hungary, is equivalent to the Civil War? The USA wanting to keep all their states and forbidding some to succeed?

>>7557355
They lived in a system that at the drop of a "treasonous" sentence, would have them killed. They lived in a system of economic inefficiency that saw millions starve the world over. They lived in a system that had bread lines for the simplest of commodities, and for housing of a decrepit nature. There was no freedom, no choice and if you tried to escape the state had you killed. The day the wall fell, and later the USSR collapsing was one of the best days in history. And to the swine who still support that horrid system, and faced homelessness, I say good riddance, they were shown to be as useless as they always were.

>>7557153
>>7557149


>humans rights have been created out of thin air and taught, for generations, to children, costing billions each year, up to the end of HS, ''otherwise it would be anarchy and anarchy is bad'' and the ''education works well'' since we totally no longer need cops and justice and jails. everybody is happy, now that everybody is either a liberal or a libertarian !

god bless freedom !!!

>>7557428
Never thought of that equation.

>>7557414
They made so many alterations that their political/economic philosophies are known by different names. Everyone who looks at their policies can easily distinguish between each attempt and the other attempts, not to mention the source material. Don't come in here and spout ideology when you clearly haven't any research to back it up.

>>7557423
American. it's easy to distinguish them from a crowd. They are the ones confusing their reality with the rest of the world.
>FeelOfBern
Why would you even think a Communist has an ounce of sympathy for him? Why would you even think a Communist thinks Social Change will happen though election.... Americans are so misinformed as to what a Communist is it hurts me

>>7557432
>I have to deal with the consequences of my actions? I HAVE TO THINK AND TAKE CARE OF MYSELF! NOOOOOOO!

>>7557437
And here it is, the inevitable damage control. If the ideal has failed so horrifyingly time and time again, seems to me that there is a flaw with the ideal, that even the slightest change will cost lives.

>>7557431
If you want to talk famine..
"between 30 and 40 million Indians were the victims of famines in the latter half of the 20th century "

>>7557452
An experiment must be performed under the same conditions, with the same methodology, repeated times, producing the same results before it's discarded. None of those conditions have been met, so why are you dismissing an economic theory based on a century full of violence and authoritarianism the world over?

>>7557436
It is one of the major moments in American history. There were many more killed and many more suffered because of it. Yet, Soviets are criminals for doing but the USA can get away with it? Smashing a genuine desire from liberation from a state they deemed oppressive

>>7557441

My God you take yourself seriously. Excuse me. Xe take xirself xeriously.

>>7557463
I think your implying that I would support the actions of either state.

>>7557456
A famine that was "culturally patterned in its onset, crisis and denouement" is as bad as the chronic hell that was communism. The Indian famines were terrible, but a drop in the pan compared to the deaths caused by communism. But hey, you will still support communism because deep down, you want that kind of power over people, you want to kill someone.

>>7557465
Again, thinking I am a Maoist or a Maoist supporter and not knowing the struggle fro power in which the Soviet Union and Chine were involved in, essentially creating 2 camps, very violent against each other, throughout the last century, is certain to lead to that misunderstanding.

>>7557462
Holy fucking shit. Are you actually this dense? COMMUNISM ENDS IN AUTHORITARIANISM EVERY GOD DAMN TIME.

How is this hard to understand? Selflessness does not exist. Someone is always going to be hungrier than you think you are and they will take your food or your money. Are you totally unaware of human nature?

Communism is jealousy on steroids

>how come that guy has a nice car and clothes that aren't wrinkled? I work 25 hours a week at Starbucks and I don't have any nice stuff. It's not fair. Someone should do something.

>>7557480
Chile, Indonesia, Spain are examples that that which you are saying is essentially false

>>7557479
>struggle fro power

We get it, you're a strong black woman as well as an avowed Maoist. Maybe you should be a calmrade comrade.

>>7557489
There is something about small trinkets of jewelry on the naked form that is so, enticing.

>>7557478
"If Soviet policies and actions were conclusively documented as intending to eradicate the rise of Ukrainian nationalism, they would fall under the legal definition of genocide."
What's that thing you say before someone or something is proven guilty? Because it might as well have been created by the force collectivisation imposed by Stalin.
"Collectivisation also contributed to famine in 1932. Collectivisation in the USSR, including the Ukrainian SSR, was not popular among the peasantry; and forced collectivisation led to numerous peasant revolts. The First Five-Year Plan changed the output expected from Ukrainian farms, from the familiar crop of grain to unfamiliar crops like sugar beets and cotton. In addition, the situation was exacerbated by poor administration of the plan and the lack of relevant general management. Significant amounts of grain remained unharvested, and – even when harvested – a significant percentage was lost during processing, transportation, or storage."
Nonetheless, I am also not a Stalinist, but don't forget that when you focus on one side of the coin, you might forget what is on the other.

>>7557489
Identity Politics is also something Marxism pretty much sets aside as an irrelevant question while the matter of Class Stuggle is at hand

>>7557493
I know whats on the other side, and its a damn shame the allied powers didn't destroy it after the war.

>>7557495
Nuke the US? It would have been good, but not a very handy at the time.

>>7557483
You have no idea what you're talking about.

>>7557498
Cute, then again a global thermonuclear war would mean communism is destroyed as well. Not bad.

>>>/his/

>>7557480
Communism operates under the assumption that selflessness doesn't exist, though.

>>7557233
>implying the "harmless soft-left socialist project" wasn't simply riding on an unsustainable coalescence of industrial mass production potential with the financial and physical destruction of the Great Depression/WWII
>implying capitalism doesn't continually adjust in an attempt to mitigate the tendential pressure toward falling profitability, and neoliberalism wasn't just another faceless response to this

>>7556695
Well I sure as hell don't. Probably the only NRA member in the state who's also a registered socialist.

Marx said the proletariat should be armed, and that any attempt to disarm them should be resisted with force. Shame how much of the left forgot that little instruction.
>>7557494
The decent ones do, anyway. A lot of the college "socialists" unfortunately get bogged down in their snowflake politics.

>>7556627
>A society ruled by philosopher kings would be neat

>>7557349
You're like an Ayn Rand character.

>>7556684
>thin the border between neoliberal capitalism and fascism

There's a reason the great capitalist states opposed Facism, and its wasn't democracy

>>7557241
I'll never understnd this simple minded view of conflict. The point of insurgency isn't to defeat a conventional miltary in symetric warfare but to destablise society the point that it makes "normal" government impossible and thus aid the radicalisation process.

For the record, I am strongly pro-gun control because I am in the believe a strong benign state is the best option. I certainly recognise how they can go wrong though

“The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his 'natural superiors,' and has left remaining no other nexus between man and man than naked self-interest, callous 'cash payment.' It has drowned the most heavenly ecstasies of religious fervor, of chivalrous enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical calculation. It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in place of the numberless indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single, unconscionable freedom—Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation.

The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage laborers.

The bourgeoisie has torn away from the family its sentimental veil, and has reduced the family relation to a mere money relation.”