/lit/ - Literature

>Discordianism

Anti-"seriousness", we can never perceive reality, only reality in accordance with our framework. Framework is arbitrary, so truth is too. Evil stems from believing in capital T Truth, ie mistaking subjective order for absolute order. Chaos and order change places depending on what lens you're looking through and are equally necessary parts of life.

>>7541099
So if my understanding of postmodernism is that it's the idea of objective anything being a human-created myth, is Discordianism pretty much tongue-in-cheek that?

>>7541108

The core principle seems to be the same.

If you think any of those is the same kind of thing as post-modernism you don't understand it either. To put it extremely bluntly post-modernism is a series of questions to the base values of modernism, things like: universality, rationality, ethics, teleology. Not saying they are wrong, but that they are tied to a certain context, so when they said universality they actually meant things like europe in the 18th century or when they talked about ethics they somehow ethically justified that killing someone by exploiting him wasn't the same as shooting him. It's just switching from absolute definitions to movile ones where you keep questioning why you would think that way before presenting an answer. It has a million subtleties and what Lyotard meant by the word is pretty different from what DFW may take out of it. Still, the main point is that it's a period of questioning of the values of modernity, like an improved sequel. Now:

>discordianism
pseudo-religion invented for funs that teens love to take too seriously, heavily promoted by uncyclopedia
>pataphysics
Invention of Alfred Jarry of some sort of absurd logic, it's not a movement as much as his personal production and people paying homage
>Fluxus
artistic group that questioned the values of art after the big break of modern art, it's hit and miss and really Beuys is the only good artist in there (inb4 pics of conceptual pieces that suck after the fact)
>dada
artistic vanguard that predated surrealism, a bit more basic than it and with more enfasis in dialogue with artistic traditions than dream jorunals.

>>7541108
>>7541117
more like it tangentially relates. post-modernism proposes dialogue between the different aspects of an issue instead of trying to find an universal solution, discordianism is more in the realm of "lol, life is funny, hu?".
What you're saying is like saying a feather is similar to a bullet since both touch your skin. You'd be right but in an extent that is the same as being wrong.

>>7541131
so, this is a case closed then?

>>7541095
none of these are postmodernism qua postmodernism. i would say, though, by way of answering your question, that postmodernism can be characterized by the prevalence of self-consciously stylistic "movements" such as the ones you described, labeled by their participants during their own historical moment as opposed to by academics studying them in their posterity. however, like this (>>7541131) anon said, postmodernism is in large part about questioning modernism's central motivations—and to some extent, codifying a set of principles under the label of, say, dada, is a very modern thing to do. nevertheless i would class dada as a modern epiphenomenon of postmodern thinking: the questions postmodernism demands were asked, and, coming up with nothing as an answer, those artists created (or, to phrase it in a more postmodern parlance, performed) dadaism to fill the void.

>>7542897
>>7542897
>a modern epiphenomenon of postmodern thinking
modernist*, not modern qua modernism... once you introduce postmodernism into your study of historical art movements, things get very tricky... something can be modernist without being modern, and that in itself is the postmodern gesture. this is what some people mean when they claim we've arrived at metamodernism, but they don't realize that we've been doing this since before the second world war. hence people saying postmodernism is a continuation of modernism, modernism a continuation of romanticism... romanticism a continuation of the enlightenment... it goes all the way down.

>>7542897
I recently read an interesting article by Cristian Cox about how you could perfectly see post-modernism as a crisis of growth of modernism. The same spirit that made man independent of religion and god is still there, only that at some point we became dependant on the myths of the illustration instead of those of religion. So post-modernism would be just redirecting modernism into a deeper course.

>dada fills the void

>>7542946
how do you mean illustration? the toughest modern myth to let go of as far as i understand it was the myth of a philosophically central notion of humanity. frankly ontology is still in desperate need of a copernican revolution in this regard. guattari talks a lot about this when he's on his own.

>>7542957
i didn't say they were successful. my argument was a little psychoanalytically oriented... think of postmodernism as a kind of castration, dada qua set of regulatory principles an imaginary phallus.

>>7542960
I meant enlightenment, I just directly translated the word we use in spanish.
Cox focused more on the variety of teleological discourses, something that comes from that first break against christianity and tradition, and that got ruined when we couldn't end war, universalize shit (and maybe we can't even define the universal), and the like.

Doesn't hermeneutics deal with the issues that arraize from working with assumed notions of humanity and nature?

I'm incredibly tired and shouldn't be writing, I'm not sure I made any sense. If this is still up tomorrow we can keep talking then and I promise to make more sense.

>>7542982
well, I don't know much about hermeneutics as a topic of study, but...

1. i actually really like "the illustration" for the enlightenment. it's a much better label considering what we know now.

2. i would definitely agree with cox there, you can see some real terror about the future in Yeats... it's a bit of a meme but check out The Second Coming with teleology in mind. same with T.S. Eliot. modernism is definitely a lot of shaking in the boots, at least in poetry... novelists seem a little more sure of themselves.

3. i'll be here tomorrow, probably.

>>7542960
Dada artists performed the void quite well, but dada as principle is destruction, I gather.

>>7543051
i'm talking about the performance of principles in themselves as a modernist thrust, not so much the epistemic content or demands of those principles.

Are there any good books on this sort of stuff? this thread has me a bit lost, but I find it interesting.

Dada could have introduced a delay, a slight obstruction in the art history sequence...
Are you saying postmodernism gets in the way of performing principles?

>>7543072
Are you saying postmodernism gets in the way of performing principles?

>>7543011
At least in Latin America hermeneutics are a pretty big and active field, the main characteristic is that it sees everything like closed systems with an internal logic and values. It's like dissecting reality before aproaching it. Check wiki if you want but modern hermeneutics share the name with stuff that has very little correlation. If you want to check some author I (and everyone else) love Gadamer, if you're into art he has a great essay called something like "Art as Game, Symbol and Celebration" which shows off his philosophical style but doesn't hang on previous works,.

>1
Illustration is a step more academic than calling it "the big teaching" or something. I had never considered that it does sound less propagandistic than enlightenment.
>2
I'll check them, I'm not too big on poetry in english.
It's hard for us to fully grasp it, but up to the early 20th century modernity was something extremely active. Living in the country was still the norm and the movement, energy and "progress" of the city was extremely strange. Things like photgraphy, cinema, radio, modern newspapers, advertizement; life was still changing into something faster, crazier, and probably dangerous.
It's not strange that after the 60's that project changed drastically. The thrid world no longer was as interested in being like europe as it was, europe wasn't as proud or strong as once were, the us was trying to unify the world with its culture. There had to be a change in the academic vision of the present and the future.
>3
I hope you're still around to read this

>>7543146

Can anyone explain why everyone says "principia" like "Prin-Kip-i-a"?

Doesn't it make more sense to say "Prin-sip-i-a"? After all, we don't say Prinkapality or munikipality.

>>7544189
In latin C is read as K

>>7541131
>pseudo-religion invented for funs that teens love to take too seriously, heavily promoted by uncyclopedia.

the teens take too seriously means that an adult mind can´t take seriously?. i just read the first chapters but without the religion satyric part seems pretty interesting.

>>7544311
satire can't work as religion, it's a pretty evident thing, but teens like to force themselves to take it more seriously than it was supposed to.

>>7541095
>symbolism
is that a movement or something? I 'd assume it's just the use of symbols...

Merdre!

>>7545296
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolism_%28arts%29

good thread. Bumping for future anons.

>>7544198
>In latin C is read as K
how ic ch read then ?

>>7548525
latin didn't have ch sounds