/lit/ - Literature

It is all very problematic, yes.

>>7371396
Backlash when

>>7371396
I get 25 cents for every post I make about Donald Trump

>In August 2014, author Daniel José Older started a petition to change the World Fantasy Award statuette from a bust of Lovecraft to one of African-American author Octavia Butler. Kevin J. Maroney, editor of the The New York Review of Science Fiction, also supported the call for the WFA to be changed from Lovecraft's face, suggesting it be replaced with a symbol representing the fantasy genre.

No, fuck this cunt. If someone gave me an award shaped like this beast I would throw it right back at them.

itt: you are mad

kekekekekeke

>>7371762
Thanks for letting us know. :)

>>7371762
if you ever won the world fantasy award, i'd eat all my hats.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/sep/17/world-fantasy-awards-hp-lovecraft-racism-row-statuette

>“People have been debating whether Lovecraft being a racist matters or whether it’s his writing that should be at issue. I’m saying: both matter. After decades and decades of deeply embedded racism being prevalent in the fantasy genre, it’s time to make courageous moves against racism, and that includes not championing a vile racist,”

A bloo bloo bloo whaaaa
So, she's a Nigerian? Why doesn't she go back to Nigeria so she doesn't have to deal with historical white American authors in their own country? She's just contributing to the brain drain her country faces by staying here. She betrayed her people for the wealth of America, she has no right to complain about oppression when she contributes to it.

I thought people gave out certificates for good writing and not statues

Christ, could she look any more like the sort of person who would raise this issue? Shit, tacky earrings and the ubiquitous "problematic" glasses seen on every single of these sort of people.

Does this mean we should stop capitalising on the Tolkien genre, given that he was likely to have racist/sexist views?

>>7371852
>fantasy award
>good writing
See? Pretty easy to explain, no?

Her name is Nnedi Okorafor, apparently. She wrote "Who Fears Death"

>The novel takes place in a fictionalized post-apocalyptic future version of Sudan, where the light-skinned Nuru oppress the dark-skinned Okeke. The protagonist, Onyesonwu (Igbo for "who fears death"), is an Ewu, i.e. the child of an Okeke woman raped by a Nuru man. On reaching maturity, she goes on a quest to defeat her sorcerous father Daib using her magical powers.

Christ, that sounds awful. Reminds me of Arkh Project.

>>7371860
Sadly, she's not the only one sperging out about it. They were motivated to change the statue because of all the fire they were coming under.

>>7371867
It wasn't that he had racist views. It was that he wrote a racist poem.

>>7371867

He is already being replaced. They just needed an equally lucrative fantasy franchise and they've found that in Game of Thrones. Once they can find one with the same staying power as Lord of the Rings they'll begin smearing his name too and request that he be wiped from history.

>>7371909

>The novel takes place in a fictionalized post-apocalyptic future version of Sudan, where the light-skinned Nuru oppress the dark-skinned Okeke. The protagonist, Onyesonwu (Igbo for "who fears death"), is an Ewu, i.e. the child of an Okeke woman raped by a Nuru man. On reaching maturity, she goes on a quest to defeat her sorcerous father Daib using her magical powers.

Holy kek. It starts out like a bland political propaganda and goes full retard by the end. Is modern sci-fi/fantasy just minority problems with the addition of lasers and spells?

>>7371909
>The novel takes place in a fictionalized post-apocalyptic future version of Sudan, where the light-skinned Nuru oppress the dark-skinned Okeke. The protagonist, Onyesonwu (Igbo for "who fears death"), is an Ewu, i.e. the child of an Okeke woman raped by a Nuru man. On reaching maturity, she goes on a quest to defeat her sorcerous father Daib using her magical powers.
Hahaha oh wow.

I don't care at all about all these race discussions and shit, don't have strong feelings one way or the other, but this really made me laugh.

yet another affirmative action author. this cunt will die and rot in a box and people will still remember Lovecraft (although personally I don't care for his work.)

>>7371909
>The novel takes place in a fictionalized post-apocalyptic version of Earth, where the forces of Doctor Eggman oppress the animals. The protagonist, Nnendi the Enchidnafoxhog (known as "who fears spikes") is a Cycle-child, i.e. the child of a Hedgehog raped by Doctor Eggman. On reaching maturity, she goes on a quest to defeat her evil father Robotnik using her magical rings.

It's barely above fan-fiction in the premise and, if we got a prose sample, probably just as purple.

Black women are obsolete, straight to >>/trash/

>>7371909
>The novel takes place in a fictionalized post-apocalyptic future version of Sudan, where the light-skinned Nuru oppress the dark-skinned Okeke. The protagonist, Onyesonwu (Igbo for "who fears death"), is an Ewu, i.e. the child of an Okeke woman raped by a Nuru man. On reaching maturity, she goes on a quest to defeat her sorcerous father Daib using her magical powers.

If there is anything more ugly than an black woman, it's a westernised black woman who tries desperatly to look authenticaly African

>>7371396
you been watching the latest season of south park?

>>7371994
you didn't have to start with the first part, but yes, it does look very silly

O BOY HERE WE GO

I found the ebook will post caps soon

>>7371396
Although i hate SJW types and progressive thought I am inclined to agree.

Fact is that I can sympathize with a black person that gets an award that literally embodies a person that didn't view them as equals (or as inhuman).

Should be recreated with a good sci fi author though, someone like Bradburry or Asimov. Dear god please don't go to some middling black author for "diversity".

>>7371762
Fuck. I just noticed that. Now i'm sad.

>>7371832
>After decades and decades of deeply embedded racism being prevalent in the fantasy genre

By racism what is meant? The lack of non-white authors or racist ideology in the works itself?
I'm not versed in fantasy genre, but I never spotted this racism. Maybe I need to read more to grasp it, or at least to stop listening to SJW.

>>7372323
>hasn't read Octavia Butler
pleb please go

>>7372323
lovecraft disliked anyone that wasn't a WASP, I'm sure plenty of Catholic writers have won the WFA and managed to come out the other side without PTSD. This debacle is just another example hyper-liberal blacks and their castrated sympathisers throwing their toys out of the pram.

>>7372348
>not reading a half-decent genre fiction
>pleb

Well hold the phone, I've read some Lovecraft and I dont remember him discriminating africans, only poor and unfamiliar immigrants of the late 19th century US.
I mean, his poor prose aside, the guy is probably the most well respected western contemporary fantasy author....

>>7372429
Is this racist? >>7370518

>>7372432
Oh yeah actually, i remember some of that stuff now, especially regarding indigenous australians. Good point.

>>7372346
It tends to fetishise European folklore, and in a sense Europe itself, especially an all white Europe

>>7371396
Why do people feel the need to protest this? There is nothing to loose by changing the statue, unless you are a racist, (or just an incredibly difficult and angry human being) there is no reason to get upset over this.

>>7371909
OK here is part of her book called "the book of phoenix

>>7372593

>>7372596
if you faggots want more ask

Everyone who gives any fucks whatsoever are all equally pleb. Op is no better than the ones who wanted Lovecraft replaced.

>>7372346
I think she literally means fantasy works having actual separate races and how they're allegories for human races.

>>7372565
no one really give 2 fucks about the statue
it's just that people can just enact change like this just because an author held/had held views that are 'problematic' today.

>>7371909
>turning african tribal dichotomies into nothing more than skin tone

Oh come on. There's so many things you could draw from too.

We don't need Hotel Rwanda with lasers.

Why do you all care about this? Awards don't matter.

>>7372607
I think this stated it best
>>7372603


I don't care about the statue either, but forcing politics into literature is a one way trip to Moron City.

>>7372598
if you ignore them they will not go away,


They will go full Fahrenheit 451 because someone held 'problematic' Ideas who was involved with the book

Lovecraft's views on race was not that far behind the medical community at the time when he was alive

>>7372603
Change can be good though, no?
I mean it is important to some people, and if it is, and it really has no negative consequences to those who oppose, then there is nothing wrong with it.

It just seems like people are angry for the sake of being angry, because the idea of a "SJW" wanting someone means that you have to disagree

>>7372668
There are negative consequences though, this just reinforces the idea that people can just shit on an author's legacy just because he was a product of his time.

Obviously true power doesn't lie with whiners and crybabies , it lies with the people who listen to them and can you arrested for 'hate speech'.

lol this is almost as bad as when they funded the James Tiptree Jnr prize with cookbooks.

>>7372593
it's like she's channeling the fat white IT guy's NaNoWriMo o.O
is this legit her work?

>>7372593
>The person who wrote this attempting to discredit Lovecraft

>>7372346
I don't think racism is inherent or even prevalent in fantasy but yeah, lovecraft was considered racist even back in his day.

>>7372429
He pretty much though all non-Anglo people were subhuman

>>7371911
So?

>>7372593
>>7372596
>>7372597
YIKES
I
K
E
S

>>7371436
>being this butthurt

>>7372302
I hope you didn't fucking pay for it.

>>7372490
Why do these none-whites read white literature so they can get offended by whites writing what they know? There are so many cultures around the world with their own literature and these people choose to read books written by whites so they can get hurt over the lack of mud characters. Are the trying to purge western literature of all things western or what?

>>7372869
nigga dat shit is on #Bookz

>>7372877
They don't know, they don't know in a way which they couldn't know other cultures and other places. White Americans has no connection to Europe in any significant way, so when they create all white patriarchal Utopias they are not following a tradition, they are choosing deliberately to not have black people in the story.

>>7372699
from what i can tell it is has he name on it and its a full ebook from some simi under ground-ish irc channel,

That would be a lot of work to troll some no name hack.

>>7371396

The most hilarious thing about all this is that even if they were going to do this, why wouldn't they chose someone like Delaney (Black+Gay) or LeGuin (Woman+Feminist) to be the face of the trophy?

These people are so fucking egotistical its mind boggling.

>>7371396
There's something about pictures like these that makes it so that it's impossible for me to take them seriously.
It's like she's doing all of this to become famous or something.

>>7371762
god they're so fucknig ugly

>BOOGA BOOGA GIVE MEESA DA ATTENTION DESPITE MEESA NO DO NUTHIN

>>7371396
Just a #problematic observation: I find it's when people are physically unattractive they feel most compelled to lash out at random shit like the batty beliefs of a dead author and try to "enact social change".

http://business.time.com/2011/03/30/why-are-beautiful-people-happier-mainly-because-good-lucks-help-them-get-rich/

>>7371867
>>7371911
Proofs?

>>7372889
>White Americans has no connection to Europe in any significant way

Seems legit

>>7372924
>god they're so fucknig ugly
>fucknig

>>7371909
>>The novel takes place in a fictionalized post-apocalyptic future version of Sudan
muh Africa
>where the light-skinned Nuru oppress the dark-skinned Okeke.
O, kek!
>The protagonist, Onyesonwu (Igbo for "who fears death"),
I won't even make this joke
>is an Ewu, i.e. the child of an Okeke woman raped by a Nuru man.
muh rape! muh cheap overblown sensationalism for emotional plot point!
>On reaching maturity, she goes on a quest to defeat her sorcerous father Daib using her magical powers.
DRRRROPPED

>>7372889
Are you a nigger?
>White Americans has no connection to Europe in any significant way
Fucking lol. It's not like our country was founded by European colonialism or something. White Americans are westerners, we grew up with western literature and our thinking is shaped by western values. The most hilarious thing about shitskins who bitch about Eurocentrism is that they don't even realize how westernized they themselves are. Everything about them and their SJW philosophy was shaped by westerners and they use western morality to reinforce their ideas.

>>7371909
>The novel takes place in a fictionalized post-apocalyptic future version of Sudan, where the light-skinned Nuru oppress the dark-skinned Okeke. The protagonist, Onyesonwu (Igbo for "who fears death"), is an Ewu, i.e. the child of an Okeke woman raped by a Nuru man. On reaching maturity, she goes on a quest to defeat her sorcerous father Daib using her magical powers.

This is why we freed them?

Isn't cotton more useful than this?

Well I've been off /lit/ for a while, when did it get so /pol/?
What exactly is wrong with an author writing fantasy from a non-European standpoint?
Most fantasy novels are fantastical versions of Europe. I mean look at Game of Thrones, it deals with the "East" as exotic haha like come on.

>>7372959
>Isn't cotton more useful than this?
KEK

if dubs, this is a new /pol/ meme

>>7372991
sigh

>>7372348
There's nothing really wrong with Octavia Butler, but she's feted out of all proportion to how good she was because she's basically the only black woman anyone can name who didn't write complete garbage like>>7371909

Also, she was definitely more known for SF than Fantasy and although reasonably prolific her only really enduring works have probably been Kindred and Xenogenesis.

>>7372773
>He pretty much though all non-Anglo people were subhuman
He pretty much thought all non-Anglo non-fedora tippers were subhuman. Also he was clearly uncomfortable with women. Basically he was a neckbearded /robot/ NEET. That doesn't detract from his writing or influence, but there you go.

>>7372900
Fun fact I didn't know Delany was black until like six months ago.

>>7372977
Casual racism has always been a part of 4chan, even back when /pol/ was called /n/. If this bothers you can always go back to /r/books

I like Black Lives Matter, and I like Between the World and Me, and I also think activists who take a certain kind of stand (the Atlantic article on "Microaggressions" comes to mind) on political correctness/censor are misguided and undermine their own cause.

I also think a great deal of hulabaloo about these types of stands indicates racism. Who cares?

>>7373220

No it's definitely changed. It used to be "haha he said niggers like watermelon" and now it's "blacks are lower IQ subhumans and integration was a mistake."

The former is harmless chatter, the latter a dangerous development towards dehumanization.

>>7372618
>Using the example Fahrenheit 451 in this context
>Reading a book this superficially
>Defending Lovecraft, one of the shittiest popular authors to have ever existed
>Being this woefully ignorant of medical history
>>>/trash/
>>>/pol/
>>>/his/
>>>/lgbt/
>>>/out/

>>7373254
That sounds like tumblr but i agree.

>>7372977
It doesn't seem to be people who have /lit/ as their homeboard but rather it comes from the cognitively-deficient ignoramuses from a board where "#bantz lol xD" constitutes as a discussion.

In other words, idiots are just being idiots. Nothing to fret about.

It just goes even more orwellian from this point.

Daily reminder racism is scientifically justified

https://jaymans.wordpress.com/2015/11/14/terrorism-quotient/

>>7372606
She was raised in North America, do you honestly think she's up to speed on her ancestoral homeland. It's like Irish-americans on St. Patricks

>>7373294
Read this you troglodyte.
http://www.unodc.org/documents/gsh/pdfs/2014_GLOBAL_HOMICIDE_BOOK_web.pdf

>>7373318
>unironically believing the JewN

>>7371396
Lovecraft was a shitty author either way. Besides, you could try leaving your little box for a second and put yourself in the position of a minority, receiving an award named after an obvious racist, xenophobic piece of shit.

>>7371762
I doubt you have to worry about winning anything. Stay calm.

>>7371867
It wouldn't be too bad if Tolkien copy cats finally stop. The genre has potential to offer more than few generic races against muh evil overlord.

>>7371909
Sum up the premise of any other fantasy novel, they all sound retarded.

>>7372593
Oh jeez, I guess she doesn't need to worry about winning anything either. M-maybe the translation sucks?

>>7372609
>believing that you can disconnect politics from anything
How old are you?

>>7371909
George Lucas tier

>>7373327
That's all you have to add? Should I stoop down to your level and say "unironically getting your information from blogs xD"?

Fuck off, retard. If you read the report--that is, if you could read--, you'd realize it BTFO the shitty compilation of "facts" on that blog.

Here are some boards where people with your intelligence can flourish
>>>/trash/
>>>/pol/
>>>/his/
>>>/lgbt/
>>>/soc/
>>>/r9k/
>>>/adv/
>>>/hm/

>>7373333
What a waste of quads

>>7373352
>caring about gets
>being this much of an idiot
You have to be 18 or older to browse this website. Your mommy would be worried if she found out you're on this site.

>>7373352
I am so sorry.

>>7373342
Calm down guy. That was a completely different anon, I haven't even taken a look at the document you linked yet. There's no need to become maximum triggered

DUDE

>>7373333
>Lovecraft was a shitty author either way.
Fantasy is largely a shitty genre. And he wasn't amazing, but he ha certain qualities.
>It wouldn't be too bad if Tolkien copy cats finally stop.
I don't even know where the Tolkien copy cats were in the first place. It's always been much more of a Howard/DnD kind of thing.
>Sum up the premise of any other fantasy novel, they all sound retarded.
Not true as there are many fantasy novels with sound premises. This one is just shit, it sounds like a cross of an anime and a fan fiction.

AFRICA

>>7373356
Whats wrong with repeating digits?

>>7373393
N LION SAFARIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

>>7373333
>Lovecraft was a shitty author either way.
I find that most people who say this have read about one or two stories and took them for face value, but whatever. That, or their some butthurt minority who has to pretend he's bad to halt their cognitive dissonance.
>believing that you can disconnect politics from anything
It's not about politics getting involved, it's about these retards forcing their own narrow world view into everything. Lovecraft had a massive impact on writing, and so he should be remembered for it. Racial politics are beginning to leak into all things academic. These people have a very narrow point of view, which everyone takes seriously for some reason, and it's going to have a hugely negative impact on academics. Lovecraft being racist is not the reason he's well renowned as an author, but it's become the main issue surrounding him. In their eyes, something is either racist or not racist, making it either good or bad. This is going to create a generation of kids who lack divergent thinking skills if they're learning to interpret literature like this.

>>7373306
She's Nigerian.

>>7372593
>>7372596
>>7372597
I don't think it's that bad desu- the prose just seems simple and lacking much depth, which I guess is partially supplemented by it's pretty 'unique' content.

>>7373391
>he ha certain qualities
That's true but his writing was generally not naming-award-after-tier.

>It's always been much more of a Howard/DnD kind of thing.
That's lately … I think. My knowledge of fantasy is limited to whatever I read when I was twelve/whatever new shit friends hype up.

>fantasy novels with sound premises
Meh. Almost every book would sound silly if dumbed down to a two line premise. Yes there are exceptions but it's definitely not the norm. Though if the stuff some anon pasted is anything to go by … the premise reflects the quality of the work quite well.

>>7373248
>I like Black Lives Matter
The only "racism" black have to complain about is "Whaaa white bitches stealin my hairstyle" and "whaaaa white bitches twerking". If the only issues you have to complain about are asses and hair, then you're a petty cunt with no real problems.

>>7373428
>defending Lovecraft
Lovecraft was a horrid author. The only he had going for him was some creative ideas. He's nothing but the Stephen King of his day.

>narrow world view into everything
People are going to write what they're most familiar with. You don't notice it when you read authors who narrate typically Western experiences because you are already within that ideological framework. Don't get me wrong, most "literature" from any race is shit but it seems that you don't understand that literature is an expressive format that attempts to crafts words in an aesthetic way that transcends mere human thought or communicative speech.

Their issue is not that he was racist. Many people still today are racist. The issue is that he publicized racist views and so people used their right to free speech to voice concerns about that. The committee acquiesced. You don't like it? Then write a letter to the committee to reverse the decision instead of complaining about how your shitty fan-fic-tier author's visage has been removed from an award because of his offensive published views.

>>7373444
i think they actually have a valid point. Police kill 5x more black people a year than the paris attacks had victims. Besides there is the very real danger experienced by students at Mizzou, which could be a Charleston situation waiting to happen.

>>7373435
>That's true but his writing was generally not naming-award-after-tier.
He was influential enough sff to have the award named after him.
>My knowledge of fantasy is limited to
Development of fantasy is an interesting topic and Tolkien had a much less of an impact than people assume. Especially with the fantasy nerd Rothfuss dicksucking fag type of writer/fan. He was always more literary than pulpy as opposed to Leiber and Howard (who are fun and told good stories).
> Almost every book would sound silly if dumbed down to a two line premise.
The problem with this one is that it gives you all the information needed to know that it's on the level of fan fiction. It's easy to tell it was written for niggers and whitebois who want to read about oppressed blacks. It's like feminist or gay fiction. It exists to please a crowd of morons.

>>7373459
Blacks make up something like 16% of the population in America and commit as much as or more than the amount of violent crime of any other race

>>7373318
Did you even fucking read the study you linked me? Or did you think because it had UN plastered on it it would support your statistically illiterate viewpoint?

>>7373472
I did read it. It gives particular reasons for high homicide rates in certain nations, the Middle East has lower homicide rates than the global average and North America, and it demonstrates how homicide rates can be lowered and countered.

It seems you're just an idiot.

>>7373428
>read about one or two stories
That'd be me. Though I'd say it's perfectly enough go get a rough overview of a writer skills, you can tell that Rand or that Twilight woman are shit after one page. Why would Lovecraft deserve more trust/time than two stories?

>Lovecraft had a massive impact on writing, and so he should be remembered for it.
Sure. Just not necessary in context of an award named after him.

As for the rest, I agree with you. Though it doesn't seem too hard to balance between two narrow minded sides. Give Lovecraft all the recognition he deserves but keep people like him the fuck away from prices, which obviously doesn't mean that they should be renamed after the next dark guy they find but somebody else who made a great contribution to the genre, without being an extremely shitty person.

I doubt any doctor would be happy about the Mengele award. (A crude example of course)

>>7373465
And there are no other influential fantasy writers that weren't obviously racist? Come on. I doubt any reasonable person expects somebody with a perfectly clean slate but there are more option than "the crazy racist dude" and "the token black dude"

>It's easy to tell it was written for niggers and whitebois who want to read about oppressed blacks.
That's the point of a premise, to sum the shit up and make clear who it's aimed for. Most fantasy is obviously aimed at people who are into European "middle ages" and whichever tropes are common. Genre fiction and everything.

Though just for the record, I don't want to defend her drivel in any way. Just trying to be objective.

>>7373472

Being convicted of more crime doesn't mean committing more crime. It could (and does) demonstrate higher prosecution and conviction rates, for instance.

>>7373507
>arguing with /pol/ fags
Why do you even bother? Next he will pretend to understand anything about Sweden and post the rape statistic there.

>>7373517

I'm just practicing so I don't atrophy.

>>7373451
>Lovecraft was a horrid author.
>Base this on nothing
Looks like we've got an expert here. What have you written?
He had a very beautiful way of writing that created some great imagery, you're just a butthurt nigger.
>Stephen King of his time
You do know that he never gained recognition or wealth from his writing during his lifetime, right?
>People are going to write what they're most familiar with.
Yes, and? What does anything you've written here have anything to do with what I just said? I'm not talking about the stupid novel that the groid wrote, I'm talking about the shitstorm she started over the lovecraft statue. Dismissing Lovecraft simply because he held views that were common in his time is incredibly narrominded.
>but it seems that you don't understand that literature is an expressive format that attempts to crafts words in an aesthetic way that transcends mere human thought or communicative speech.
>*Fedora tipping intensifies*

I think the best authors are the ones that held political views closest to my modern political views.

The worst authors are the ones who did not.

>>7373526
Why do you exercise your mind and not your body sempai?

>>7373492
>the Middle East has lower homicide rates than the global average and North America

This is specifically addressed in the article I linked. Before you complain about it being on a blog there are sources linked to every single claim.

Nonwestern cultures, Islam specifically, do not mesh well with western culture. Muslims specifically do not do well in Western countries. For over a thousand years, a multitude of nations, states, peoples, cultures, religions, and empires have attempted to coexist with Islam. None have succeeded. We will not be the first.

There is of course a biological basis for this just like there is a biological basis for blacks being, on average, more violent and less intelligent than whites and asians. Culture does not exist in a vacuum, it is an expression of biology. You will ignore this of course because you have a view of humans as a blank slate that just happen to come in different colors instead of the colors tending to be clustered with various undesirable behavioral traits.

>>7373459
Black people attack and kill cops every day and we never hear shit about it. They riot in the streets whenever some violent black thug gets shot out of self defense. The actual story of what happened isn't important to them, they'll stand by the innocence of the thug no matter what the circumstanced for him getting shot were. They're only upset because they can't get away with doing whatever they want.
Fuck da white man fo not lettin me steal and sheet.

>>7373534
>based this on nothing
I've read his works. I've seen his purple, stiff prose and his inability to evoke any real emotions in the reader.

>What have I written?
This is one of the stupidest arguments to come out of the internet age. I can't criticize anything because I need to produce something of better quality beforehand?

>Stephen King of his time
I meant in quality.

>butthurt nigger
No. I don't care about the award one way or another.

>fedora tipping
Exactly what I'd expect from someone who reads shit like Lovecraft.

>Dismissing Lovecraft
That's not what they're doing. What they're doing is saying that he should not be celebrated with a statue of his visage because he published racist views. If you don't like it, write a letter, protest, make a petition. Whining about it like an SJW here doesn't change anything.

>>>/r/books

>>7373550
They are all inferior to Ashkenazi Jews, so how do you propose to deal with less intelligent races like whites, asians and blacks?

>>7373507
It always amuses me how libtards will sperg out over black poverty while refusing to acknowledge that poverty and crime go hand and hand.

>>7373573
Religious orthodox Askenazi Jews and Jews in general are not so much a problem as westernized liberal Jews. Any Jew that does not assimilate should be deported.

>>7373550
The middle east has some horribly corrupt law enforcement. Paying off cops is just a common practice that's accepted by their culture. If you're rich, you can have anyone killed.

>>7373550
>all these assumptions
Firstly, read the actual report and the reasons behind the homicide rates before you parrot your dogmatic views here.

Secondly, I don't subscribe to the "tabula rasa" ideal of humanity. I study genetics. I just realize this reductionist view and to extrapolate information about the individual because of trends in the population are idiotic.

Thirdly, there are several other factors for this "undesirable behavioral traits", including Western intervention in foreign nations to this day and centuries of systemic oppression against Africans.

Fourthly, you don't seem to know history that well based on your statement about Islam and coexistence.

It seems you're just an idiot.

>>7373593
Why would they need to assimilate if they are biologically the absolutely superior race? It's like you want to stay in the way of evolution by keeping your inferior white genes alive.

>>7373501
>And there are no other influential fantasy writers that weren't obviously racist?
Why does his racism matter in the first place? It's a literature award, not the Bernie Sanders fan group.
And true, I wouldn't mind Lovecraft being changed for other reasons, such as Howard being more influential or Tolkien being a great artist, but doing it for racism is mentally retarded.
>Most fantasy is obviously aimed at people who are into European "middle ages" and whichever tropes are common.
You've earlier said that you don't read fantasy and Lovecraft for example, Howard or Leiber or Wolfe or many other good candidates didn't write things that are similar to the white fantasy nerd book type.

>>7373550
>Nonwestern cultures, Islam specifically

>Islam
>culture

>Muslims specifically do not do well in Western countries.

Blanket statement with no proof. There are plenty of muslims who are engineers, doctors, lawyers etc.

>For over a thousand years, a multitude of nations, states, peoples, cultures, religions, and empires have attempted to coexist with Islam. None have succeeded.

On the contrary many have hence why it spread and was adopted by so many varying and differing nations and cultures.

>spread by the sword

And for much of many caliphates rule the greater majority of the demography was not muslim. Also, not to mention the pretty much peaceful spread of Islam to the far east (China), and SE Asia via trade. There have also been many diplomatic ties between 'muslim' and non-muslim nations throughout history. Morocco was even the first nation to recognise the USA post declaration of Independence.

>There is of course a biological basis for this

Undeniable but you very much over state this.

>Culture does not exist in a vacuum, it is an expression of biology.

This is nothing more than your own pet theory.

What is so laughable about your piece is you conflate and/or confuse culture and religion, and biology, and sociology freely switching between the terms to justify an overwhelmingly bigoted narrative espousing what can be seen in no other way as racist and conclusions foregone with no evidence backing it up.

>>7373599
What assumptions specifically? Don't handwave.

>I study genetics. I just realize this reductionist view and to extrapolate information about the individual because of trends in the population are idiotic.

Who said anything about individuals? I'm talking about populations. I notice that your type is always the first to cry racist whenever this discussion happens but nowhere did I say we should judge every individual black as a savage. On the other hand, averages exist. Stereotypes do not appear from nowhere. There is a certain amount of usefulness in stereotypes. It's called "risk management".

>Thirdly, there are several other factors for this "undesirable behavioral traits", including Western intervention in foreign nations to this day and centuries of systemic oppression against Africans.

Africans have been practicing systematic oppression against themselves for far longer than America has been around but for some reason this is a white problem.

> Fourthly, you don't seem to know history that well based on your statement about Islam and coexistence.

I know history better than you if you seriously disagree with anything in that post.

Are you seriously contending that Islam has not been a problem child on a global scale for most of its existence? Are we also going to pretend that the nomadic Jews haven't been kicked out of every single civilization they have attempted to assimilate into? Let's get real.

>It seems you're just an idiot.

Your rage is duly noted. Serious question: are you black or do you practice the Muslim faith?

>>7373605
They're not the superior race, there is more to civilization building than IQ. Have you ever seen a group of MENSA members gathered together?

Jews have had to parasitically leech off of its host civilizations since time immemorial because they are highly adapted to parasitism and very little else.

>>7373629
>There are plenty of muslims who are engineers, doctors, lawyers etc.

Go back and read the thread before you post.

>This is nothing more than your own pet theory.

I want you to think seriously and honestly before you answer this. What is culture and where does culture come from?

>>7373655
>jews are more intelligent than whites
>F-FUCK YOU THERE'S MORE TO CIVILIZATION THAN IQ, THEY'RE JUST PARASITES
>whites are more intelligent than blacks
>lmao inferior race
honestly m8

>>7373622
>Why does his racism matter in the first place?
As some guy mentioned already, it doesn't feel too nice to win a price named after a person who saw your ethnic as sub human. Hell, Lovecraft himself would turn around in his grave. It's like a white person winning the Nation of Islam price or something.

Besides, again, it's not like he was the single and the very best fantasy author, there was no reason to call the award after him in the first place.

>didn't write things that are similar to the white fantasy nerd book type
Well, times changed but I suppose arguing about something I have almost no idea about would be silly.

>>7373665
Is this the part where we take the opposing argument in a dishonest fashion and rewrite it in memespeak to make it seem utterly ridiculous?

Whites and asians have high IQ and the ability to build and maintain sustainable and flourishing empires. Jews, specifically Askenazim, have the former but not the latter, hence Israel just recently being established as a nation-state. Blacks have neither the former nor the latter.

>>7373655
> very little else
Yeah who needs science, arts, economy to build a civilisation. Also consider their dominance in this fields while having extreme disadvantages.

Sorry, brah, you either have to adjust your idiotic world view or find a Jew to serve. Compared to them you are biologically just an idiotic, violent brute.

>>7373680
All I can tell you to do is read more history and read more about genetics.

Nobody can really dignify you with a serious response when you're this mired in your ideology and your responses depict you as a blubbering, asinine fool.

>>7373680
>flourishing empires
>Whites
Because they were lucky to have some Jews to point them the way.

>flourishing empires
>Asians
Only in the recent times, China was mostly a shithole that made Africa look good only a century ago, like Israel and most Jews didn't even bother with own state.

>flourishing empires
>Blacks
They had quite a few but keep presenting your ignorance about history and biology further.
Also they obviously had less Jews.

>>7373681
>art

Name five great Jewish artists.

>science

I'll give you science but there are just as many white geniuses as Jewish ones who have contributed to scientific endeavor, not to mention the Jews who did contribute did so on the shoulders of white civilization.

>economics

Not sure why you threw this in here. Hopefully you don't mean Engels or Marx.

>Also consider their dominance in this fields while having extreme disadvantages.

Dominance in what? The entertainment industry? On top of that, Jews are some of the most privileged people in modern Western civilization. Even today the Israelites enjoy the homogeneity of a walled off ethno-state and a borrowed military on America's dime. To say they are disadvantaged is disingenuous.

>>7373672
>there was no reason to call the award after him in the first place.
He was very influential, he has a place in fantasy. I'd say he is in the top 5 most influential fantasy writers.
> it doesn't feel too nice to win a price named after a person who saw your ethnic as sub human
You don't recieve the "Political award of Lovecraft opinions", you get the reward in his honour because of his literary influence.
It's like changing the hypothetical Dostoevsky reward to Gogol reward because Dostoevsky had negative opinions about communists so they might feel offended.
Everyone is so thin skinned, everyone has precious feelings.

>>7373697
>Even today the Israelites enjoy the homogeneity of a walled off ethno-state
not really, they even INVITED ethiopian jews, and they sure as shit aren't the same ethnicity as middle-eastern or ashkenazi jews.

>>7373688
You literally need to take your own medicine. It's obvious you know little about history and I doubt you "study genetics" in any real capacity like you claimed earlier. Due to the repeated outbursts and emotional tone of your posts I also suspect that you're black and still upset about being viewed through the lens of an average, which I explained why you shouldn't be buttblasted about upthread because no one is doing that.

I'm also still waiting for your response to any of the claims in the initial article, all of which are sourced extensively and, ironically, written by a black guy who studies genetics at the professional level.

>>7373691
>blacks
>they had quite a few flourishing empires

Which ones specifically? Stop being vague and making me draw out the discussion, it's like pulling teeth.

And I seriously hope you don't say Egypt.

>>7373697
kafka, salinger, proust and asimov are the main authors I can think of.
There are plenty of jewish musicians like lou reed and bob dylan who are undoubtedly greats in their field of art
>>7373704
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/30/forced-contraception-jewish-ethopian-women
I don't hate jews but they have done some shady things despite having experienced terrible crises' in their past.

>>7373700
Would you want to accept a prize with Angela Davis' face on it?

>>7373714
>being this idiotic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_empires

how does it feel to be posting in the worst thread on /lit/

>>7373727
it's to corral all the /pol/ posters :p

>>7373697

>Name five great Jewish artists.

Kafka, Asimov, Heller, Salinger, Proust, Goldman, Auster, Weber, Chagall, Modigliani, etc.

>I'll give you science but there are just as many white geniuses as Jewish ones

Yet Jews make up a significantly smaller amount of the population. There must be something about Jewish culture conducive to genius.

>the Jews who did contribute did so on the shoulders of white civilization.

Your criticism is getting inane. Are we to discredit every white scientists after Einstein for standing on his shoulders? Get the fuck out. Every leap forward in understanding is based on previous knowledge. This does not detract from the geniuses that make these leaps. You're grasping at straws.

>Not sure why you threw this in here. Hopefully you don't mean Engels or Marx.

Friedman and Mises may be more to your liking then.

I hope I just got trolled. You're a fucking idiot. Go back to /pol/.

>>7373714
>Which ones specifically? Stop being vague and making me draw out the discussion, it's like pulling teeth.
>And I seriously hope you don't say Egypt.
Not him but seriously m8?
Axum,Kush,Mali
And no, they're not tribal nigger 'empires' either, axum was even said to be one of the world's greatest empires by the greeks.

>>7373697
>Name five great Jewish artists.
There are too damn many to pick and you will try some "not a real/good artist" shit ... soo, choose yourself

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jews_born_in_the_Russian_Empire_and_the_Soviet_Union#Performing_artists

Notice how these are just ex Soviet ones, I did't want to make white brutes as yourself look even worse.

> just as many white geniuses as Jewish ones
You realise that the Jews weren't even 1% of the population, right?

>economics
Jesus fuck. You seriously doubt that Jews had tons of relevant economists?
Hurwicz, Kuznets and half of the Rothshield family (I hope you at least heard about them)

>Jews are some of the most privileged people
>white guy
>plays the "check your privilege card"
>against the most discriminated ethnic group in Europe

>>7373723
>>7373736
>>7373737
you're all just triggered because you niggers will never be as good as white people

>>7373738

>against the most discriminated ethnic group in Europe

Deluded. Get the fuck out.

Gypsies are treated as Jews were during the late 30's and no one cares.

This is probably going to agitate a response saying they're dirty, stealing subhuman scum. Case in point.

>>7373723
"Flourishing" was the operative word there champ but I suppose I should have said "advanced" or "contributing to scientific advancement or art/culture". But you're right; what would we have ever done without the second rate iron smelting and terracotta architecture of the Nok tribe?

>>7373720
Assuming the reward itself is something I'd see as worthwhile, sure, why not?

>>7371909
isn't Sudan already post apocalyptic?

>>7373751

here >>7373737
there's your advanced empires, let me guess they were actually white all along?

>>7373714
I'm not black and like I said, I don't give a damn either way.

Once again, read the report.

And I specifically research a mutation in KDM5C that results in a form of autism. But OK, I don't have any knowledge of biology.

I also read books of history on a daily basis, but OK, whatever you say.

Once again, you're mired in your ideology to such an extent that you're too obstinate to admit your shortcomings and because of that you'll always come across as an ignorant fool who can't articulate his opinions and who won't ever read anything to challenge or even substantiate his worldview.

Fuck off to /pol/ where you can be more safe in your stupidity. :)

>>7373759
Axum was white. Why would Greeks say it was a good empire when they thought blacks were barbarians?

>>7373747
>late 30s
You realize that Jews were discriminated against for centuries, right? Though sure, if you insist, let's make them the second most discriminated group. Makes the statement not any less retarded.

>>7373740
Somebody is mad that "his" "theories" imply that he is a subhuman himself. Must feel bad indeed. Anyway, it's sabbath here, take care and preferably go back to /pol/

>>7373769
>not knowing that every non Greek was a barbarian for them
It's like, there is no more hope for you, anon.

Well they've got a point. Why Lovecraft? I do love his stuff, but honestly, shouldn't someone like Tolkien, Lewis, Asimov, Heinlen, etc, some of the more notable authors of the sci/fan genres be included in this?

>>7373716
>Bob Dyland and Lou Reed
not Gustav Mahler and Jascha Heifitz

>>7373778
>not Mendelssohn

>>7373762
Nice fedora

>>>/r/eddit
>>7373774
I did know that. I was just testing you.

>>7372593
>She took his old rough hand in her equally rough old hand.

O-onii-chan.. whats happening
my sides
theyre moving on their own

>>7373778
I said in their field of art. Lou reed is one of the greatest musicians in pop music so I do think that counts as something significant.
also mahler is shit, schoenberg would be a better choice

>>7373784
>I am not an idiot, I am just trolling
Suuuure.

>>7371909
I actually had to read Who Fears Death for a class on fantasy literature. It was actually pretty good, but the overall shitty selection of fantasy books may have colored my opinion.

The "magical powers" aren't really like harry potter bullshit--it's more like shape-shifting and future telling aka black magic.

>>7373716
>Kafka, Asimov Salinger

I'll give you Proust but really? Those three? Are you still in high school?

>Yet Jews make up a significantly smaller amount of the population. There must be something about Jewish culture conducive to genius.

No, there is something conducive in Jewish biology related to high IQ. Again, no one is saying Jews are unintelligent, what is being disputed is their ability to do anything but parasitize other civilizations. They are literally incapable of building their own civilization without outside assistance. Isreal the nation-state is a life support system for Jews being paid for by America.

>Go back to /pol/.

More emotional outbursts and accusations. I don't browse /pol/ but that doesn't matter because me not browsing /pol/ doesn't fit your preconceived notions about people who disagree with you Keep it up, you're so tolerant!

>against the most discriminated ethnic group in Europe

Yes, the Jews being kicked out of literally every civilization they have attempted to assimilate into is just a wild series of unfortunate coincidences. There is nothing the Jews have done to warrant this, and it is the problem of every other civilization for being racist and discriminatory against Jews.

>Once again, read the report.

I did read the report. It's been addressed in the first article linked. Once again, read the article. Sources are provided with each claim.

>Once again, you're mired in your ideology to such an extent that you're too obstinate to admit your shortcomings and because of that you'll always come across as an ignorant fool who can't articulate his opinions and who won't ever read anything to challenge or even substantiate his worldview.

This is coming from someone who refuses to read the first article linked in the current discussion offshoot. You couldn't be more of a hypocrite if you tried.

>/pol/

Yes continue to assert your initial accusation, that will make it true.

>>7373787
Name 5 good black and 5 muslim artists, 5 good black and 5 muslim scientists, and 5 good black and 5 muslim economists

The only reason there are those Jews are because white people allowed them to live in our societies. It has nothing to do with their genes because they're related to arabs and arabs are stupid and violent like they were before white people accepted them

>>7373770
You know you're responding to several different people right?

You also keep accusing everyone of being from /pol/. This is not an argument. It makes sense that you're involved in autism research, hopefully you can cure your own malady someday.

>>7373789
>black magic.
Fuck you, nigger. I dropped my cigarette.

>>7373794
>You know you're responding to several different people right?
And all of them are absolute idiots who belong to /pol/.

>>7373804
>/pol/ is dumb

That's not an argument anon.

>>7373794
>You know you're responding to several different people right?
Yeah and the person you're responding to isn't me, the person who you said didn't research genetics but does.

>keep accusing everyone of being from /pol/. This is not an argument.
And accusing people of being "savages", "kikes", or having autism isn't an argument against us or the populations whose history and culture you dismiss with reductionist and ignorant ideas about biology. You are nothing but a popscifag.

>>7373806
It's not an argument. It's a suggestion. You should "stick with your own kind", right?

That board "culture" suits your ideological biases much more than our "culture". As such, you don't belong here and should leave.

>>7373770

>You realize that Jews were discriminated against for centuries, right? Though sure, if you insist, let's make them the second most discriminated group. Makes the statement not any less retarded.

We're counting the past and being butthurt about things none of us alive today have ever experienced too? Sorry, Jews go even further down. Blacks take first place in the victimization game.

>>7373815
Are you so foolish to think that historical events have no bearing on the present?

>>7371762
Who the fuck is Octavia Butler?

>>7373809
>popscifag

Literally read the article. You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. There is nothing "popsci" about population genetics nor statistical trends, if anything the "popsci" faggot is the one who mutters banal platitudes about how race doesn't matter and we're all the same. You haven't even put forth a coherent argument.

>>7373812
If you love "black culture" so much why aren't you living with the African bushmen right now? You sit there and defend Islam and you defend black culture from the safety of your most likely suburban parents' home, typing on a computer that was made possible by whites, asians, and Jews.

But you're right, Muslims only want peace, they are not a global problem child, and blacks don't have a rich cultural history of violence and oppression, specifically violence toward and oppression of, themselves.

>>7373790

Kafka and Asimov are pretty great tho, regardless of your faux-superiority sensibilities.

Are Jews genetically homogeneous? I doubt it. That's why I concluded it must be a cultural thing.

>>7373815
It's funny how history only exists to prove deeds of the great white race.

Although good job grasping on another straw. You are doing quite well for a violent subhuman.

>>7373727
I do find this "WEEKLY RACE DEBATE THINLY VEILED AS LITERATURE" existing kind of ridiculous, but at the same time the level of discourse here is pretty high, ppl just need to stop being buttblasted at counterarguments and carry on the discussion.

You'd never see discussion this nuanced about race on /pol/.

I think the more you know about the counterarguments to your side the smarter you become and the better you can deal with a racist IRL

>>7373821

Not at all. If anything, the historical persecution of the Jews is the cause for their privileged status today.

>>7373833

Literally my first post in the thread breh.

>>7372606
Hotel Rwanda with Wite Debil.
muhfuggas wit dems teknollogy n shiet key pin us doun
>>7373267
Lovecraft is good middlebrow though. Like horror pulp taken to its literary extreme.
>>7373691
>They had quite a few but keep presenting your ignorance about history and biology further.
Said the moron denying Asia had empires.

I hope you realize that civilization arguably began in Asia.
>>7373716
>There are plenty of jewish musicians like lou reed and bob dylan who are undoubtedly greats in their field of art
Pop music isn't art, art is high brow.

>>7373838

>Applauds level of discourse
>Finds it useful for reinforcing his already established worldview

I'm not even picking sides, but it seems you missed a point somewhere.

>>7373838
That's not how it works. Racist, like any radicals, don't give a damn about reason. At best you can shut them up for a while.

>>7373845
It's not a good idea to jump in without knowing what it's about, breh.

>>7373825
>Literally read the article. You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. There is nothing "popsci" about population genetics nor statistical trends, if anything the "popsci" faggot is the one who mutters banal platitudes about how race doesn't matter and we're all the same. You haven't even put forth a coherent argument.
I read the article. It's filled with misleading errors and confounding variables.

I never said race doesn't matter and that we're all the same. I already told you I don't ascribe to the "tabula rasa" ideal. There are genetic differences and there are certain trends within populations that are shaped IN PART by biology and IN PART by history and environment. It's foolish and reductionist to take it to one extreme or the other.

You are the popscifag because you're someone who parrots the views of those whose views fit in your vista and then dogmatically parrot it without chance for reflection. You likely never studied a science at an institution of higher-learning and if you did, it definitely wasn't biology. Should I give you articles telling you about how there are more genetic differences within Africans themselves for example?

Read some journals or at least some textbooks before you start acting like an expert. The sticky on /sci/ has good suggestions.

>coherent argument
I don't have an argument because I have no position. I'm only attacking you because you're dumb and I'm bored.

>>7373831
>Kafka and Asimov are pretty great tho

I guess that comes down to personal preference.

>Are Jews genetically homogeneous? I doubt it.

The Ashkenazim are, and that's really the only group that is relevant to the IQ discussion.

>That's why I concluded it must be a cultural thing.

Cultural values and effects kick in more if we were to discuss Orthodox Judaism, which as stated before is far from the problem. Orthodox Judaism is exclusive rather than inclusive and sets forth a strong moral standard for its practitioners, unlike modern Wester Christianity which is neoliberal and inclusive in practice. The problem is not Orthodox regligious Jews; it is westernized liberal Jews. The same ones /pol/ likes to pretend run the world, but they don't really run the world, they just run Hollywood.

>>7373851
Civilization began in the Middle East. His statement about Asian empires was dumb but he's right about African ones.

>>7373839
And so the historical imperialism, persecution, and support for dictators and terrorists in Africa, the Middle East, and South America is the cause for their situation then?

>>7373825
>If you love "black culture"...
Strawman: the Post

I'm just pointing out stupid things you're saying. I didn't know it was my fault that you're so uneducated.

>>7373756
top kek

>>7371762
not even mad. Octavia Butler is top tier, and lovecraft was a hack immortalized by "lel incomprehensible" redditors.

>>7373863
He was but thinking Asia is restricted to the yellows is plain wrong.

>>7373812
10/10
topkek

>>7373858

>The Ashkenazim are, and that's really the only group that is relevant to the IQ discussion.

That settles it, I'm gonna find a qt Ashkenazi Jewish girl and make superbabies.

>>7373870

Not exclusively, but partially, sure.

I'm probably not the guy you think I am.

>>7373886
I hope you are Ashkenazi too then. Would be a shame to waste her superior genes.

>>7373857
>I read the article. It's filled with misleading errors and confounding variables.

Why do I have to pull teeth with you? Stop handwaving and stop with the vagaries. Specifically which "misleading errors" and specifically which "confounding variables"?

>There are genetic differences and there are certain trends within populations that are shaped IN PART by biology and IN PART by history and environment. It's foolish and reductionist to take it to one extreme or the other.

At no point did I say the current state of populations was not influenced in part by biology and in part by history and environment. But you need to take a closer look at what it is you believe. Where do environment and culture come from? Is the occurrence of a fiddler crab mating dance the result of biology or culture? Is crab dancing "crab culture"? Is camouflage amongst the Pandora sphinx month as a response to predation due to biology or is it due to "moth culture"? Are species that predate moths complete shitlords for shaping moths in this way, just like whites are to blame for buying black slaves from black slave owners and bringing them to America, thus destroying any chance of the black man being able to rise above?

You parrot the views of those whose views fit in your vista and then dogmatically parrot it without chance for reflection as well. You're just also completely unaware that you're doing it as well.

>>7373791
Is nobody going to take my challenge? Seems like I won. Jews, whites, and chinks are the only superior races and the only reasons jews are superior are because whites helped them out. arabs and blacks contributed nothing to human history except bloodshed and poverty

>>7373897
You are just going to dodge like the other faggot who thinks that pop music isn't art. Or you can just google it yourself, takes 30 sec to err, win your challenge.

>>7373897
no ones going to do your research for you, you stupid nigger
>arabs and blacks contributed nothing to human history except bloodshed and poverty
good for you, want a medal?

>>7373906
>>7373910
haha you niggers and mudslimes just get angry whenever anyone challenges you

thanks for proving my point

>>7373893

I'm a white-trash slob, but a God with the ladies. Our son is going to be called Llewellynn or Cletus.

Enjoy being keked.

>>7373918
Are there really people on this board this arrogant and delusional?

This post made my entire body cringe.

>>7373875
You hate black culture?

>>7373923

>Are there really people on this board this arrogant and delusional?

Great use of rhetorical question. I award you 5 shekels. Superior verbal IQ is showing.

>This post made my entire body cringe.

Nice.

>>7373896
This first BTFO your and the blogs silly argument:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v491/n7422/abs/nature11632.html

Secondly the report deals with why homicide rates are higher and lower in some other countries.

Thirdly, the blog is filled with reporting some stats and then making a conclusion based on it without due evidence. It's literally popscifaggotry.

Most of it is filled with tweets, atheist blogposts, and emotionally-charged pictures and vitriol.

It does not address Western interference in Muslim nations whatsoever.

And look up some research about the haplogroups of Middle Eastern nations.

>>7373923
IT'S THE CURRENT YEAR I MEAN COME ON!

>>7373950
>>7373935
If you want to talk about how great you are at picking up ladies and how handsome you look, go to /soc/. Vain, superficial people like you are revolting to be around. :)

>>7373917
Did I scare you guys off? Come one and try to challenge me. It looks like I won. Arabs and blacks did nothing throughout history except kill people

>>7373945
I know about Middle Eastern haplogroups, I study this topic rigorously. And white intervention in Muslim nations was addressed in the post you replied to but that's to be expected. Those poor moths!

You need to step back and respond to the arguments you've been ignoring. You whine and complain that Muslims and blacks have been subjugated despite the fact that blacks have subjugated and oppressed themselves long before blacks sold themselves into slavery, long before big bad America was even around. There is a biological basis to violent cultures and you're content to ignore the biological for the cultural without understanding the strong link between the two. Where does culture come from anon?

>>7373956

Vanity is the life and soul of this entire board. And picking up qt ashkenazi chicks has nothing to do with superficiality.

Your skills at analysis are failing you fast breh. Step back and take a breather.

>>7373906
>pop music is art

Daily reminder that current /lit/ lists Lou Reed, Bob Dylan, JD Salinger and the terracotta architecture of the African Nok tribe as highlights of cultural and artistic advancement.

>>7373956
> If you want to talk about how great you are at picking up ladies and how handsome you look

You mean like every rap music video ever?

WE KINGS AND QUEENS WE DINDU NUFFIN

>>7373982
https://www.autismspeaks.org/community-and-support-network/support-groups

Best of luck, anon.

>>7373992
haha hella f*ckin epic!! you got him! that guy doesn't know shit about art t.b.h witchu family

who /justlikeholdencaulfield/ here??

>>7373585
It always amuses me how conservifags will sperg out over black crime while refusing to acknowledge that crime and poverty go hand in dick

>>7373974
I doubt you do study Middle Eastern haplogroups based on your knowledge of genetics. If so, what exactly do you research? And can you name some researchers in that field?

Next, it wasn't addressed except in a comment which was filled with ideological stupidty.

And I forgot about your little "crab" argument. You do realize there's such thing as learned behaviors, right?

>Muslims and blacks have been subjugated despite...
Your point? Are you going to say "the West dindu nuffin" when they colonized, enslaved, and/or crafted the boundaries for these nations while also establishing dictators, funding al-Qaeda and ISIS, and taking down democratic revolts in Bahrain, Saudi, and Jordan?

It also goes for South America as well.

Do you maybe think they're mad because the West fucking ruined their nations by crippling them economically, socially, and politically? Hmm?

>where does culture come from
Partly learned behaviors transmitted through generations with biological influences serving as a background.

>>7374024
The black community was doing just fine in the mid 1900's when they had strong father figures who were willing to stick around and provide for a nuclear family. If you want to pinpoint the exact moment when the black community imploded it was women's suffrage. Black thug culture is a response to feminism and you can't really blame them for adapting the way they did. Why stick around when women are held to no standard but their own?

>>7373974
Also I forgot, Simpson's paradox is rife in that little blog of yours. I doubt this guy is a scientist and if he is, then I suppose this proves that your point that blacks are cognitively deficient, right? It seems whites like you are as well though.

>>7373961
nobody wants to challenge me! i guess all of you nigger lovers are done

/lit/ is filled with liberal idiots

>>7373333
>Lovecraft was a shitty author either way. Besides, you could try leaving your little box for a second and put yourself in the position of a minority, receiving an award named after an obvious racist, xenophobic piece of shit.

he did take it all back on his deathbed. Most of it was just due to his fear of people or whatnot. He was actually more of a bandwagoner. So there, shut up, a lot of America was like this. Thats how shit was back then. Get over it. I'm a minority and I still prefer white people over niggers. At least white people have jobs to give.

>>7374072
Proof that he did take it back?

And I don't think anyone here really needs to "get over it". We're showing why some people wouldn't like to get an award from him. It seems people like you are too autistic to see things from a different perspective.

>>7374041
Was it a learned behavior when blacks sold black slaves to America?

>>7373974
Also if you study Middle Eastern haplogroups, why are you so ignorant of the region's history? If you aren't, please name some books for me about the history of the region. I'd love to get "redpilled" like you. :)

>>7374090
Maybe this will help you understand what a learned behavior is. It's short, made for kids, and perfect for someone with your intelligence.
https://www.uic.edu/classes/bios/bios101/zanimalbehavior/sld008.htm

>>7374097
Ouch.

>>7373852
>>7373855
wtf are you talking about. I said it was a strong discussion

>>7374097
You're still not getting it and you still refuse to answer simple questions. Stay bitter.

>>7374143
Please answer all these points I made and please provide for me some literature on ME haplogroups and history. Since you're an expert on both and this is /lit/, you're obviously well-read enough to provide "redpilled" lit.
>>7374094
>>7374055
>>7374041
In regards to your question, if you're so mentally impaired as to not be able to make a deductive conclusion from a provided and simplified definition, then I wonder if you lied about your supposed expertise in ME haplogroups and if, in the end, you're just an idiot.

Or as you troglodytes would put it, "lol u mad bro? xD"

>>7374159
>troglodytes
:') u a fgt

>>7374087
I'm reading a biography on him right now. L.Sprague de Camp. Frankly, it didn't matter much whether he was racist or not. He was definitely not a people person, he was the embodiment of /r9k/ of that time.


>We're showing why some people wouldn't like to get an award from him. It seems people like you are too autistic to see things from a different perspective.

I understand if its because you don't think hes the right author, frankly I'll admit that, but I still get a kick out of of some of his stories. But I'm talking about those that use "hurr durr hes racist" as an argument point. If they're gonna use a different author, then they should use someone more notable.

>>7374143
Also wanted to add, all you've proven so far is that there exists white people who are dumber than the dumbest nigger. There should be some case studies done on you. :)

>>7374168
>>7374159
fucking rekt

>>7373404
Do you get excited when street lights turn on or stoplights change color?

>>7374168
Brutal as fuck

>>7374159
You haven't even answered my inItial argument so no I'm not going to humour you by responding to points that have already been addressed. You will continue to make excuses for populations and cultures of violence that have a noted history of subjugating and oppressing themselves even before white intervention. You will point to white meddling being the cause of black cultural violence and lower average IQ without knowing the history of pre-colonial Africa, nor have you any real knowledge of the history of the Middle East. Islam is a religion of peace, Muslims are capable of adapting to non-Muslim culture and Mindanao doesn't exist.

Similarly you will torture statistics to fit the idea that it's whitey keeping the black man down and then accuse others of torturing statistics when they present a clear outline of population biodiversity.

Was it or was it not learned behavior when blacks sold blacks into slavery?

>>7374202
I answered that here >>7374168.

Do some more reading and fuck off because you're a disgrace to the white race. :)

>>7374215
You keep telling me to read more but you have a severely lacking grasp of history.

Your defense of Islam is comical. Whenever Muslims live in the same location as non Muslims, they make war upon the non Muslims. And wherever two different kinds of Muslims live in the same location, they make war upon each other. In this sense, Muslims are more violent than people of other religions.

I'm still waiting for you to address the original article.

>>7374219
I addressed it already several times and you haven't responded to those points. I asked you for proof of your expertise about ME history and haplogroups and you haven't provided it. You have made several ignorant statements, reductionist points, logical fallacies, and attacked my knowledge about the region and biology without merit. You continue to make a strawman post because I never said anything about Islam.

Once again, you're an idiot. Please go back to your mom, because I assumed you called her during the 18 minutes between your two posts so she can console you once again and perhaps send you some "chicken tendies" as you troglodytes prefer.

You're an idiot, a liar, and a fool. I'm ashamed that people like you exist on this planet. If eugenics programs were to ever exist, I hope you would be the first victim.

Have a nice day. :)

>>7374229
Damn. Somebody got BTFO.

>>7374219
Oh, just to humor you, please tell me about the history of Christianity in Iraq. Why is it that only after Western intervention and support of terrorist groups in the region that thousands of Christians have fled?

Tell me about Iran and Afghanistan before Western intervention.

Tell me why Saudi Arabia exists. Why there are certain dictators. Why al-Qaeda, the mujahideen, the Taliban, and ISIS exist and have the power they do know.

Tell me.

Oh it must be because of their culture!

You're an idiot. :D

>>7374229
>You continue to make a strawman post because I never said anything about Islam.

Your pathetic non-defense of Islam ITT is what started this. You continually attack the initial article I posted without specifically addressing the contents of the article and you continue to post vagaries and ironic smiley faces and accuse me and my sources of logical fallacies and confounding variables without explaining why. It's transparent.

Where are the great non-white, non-Asian Eastern civilizations? I know you're not talking about the Muslims in Mindanao. I know you're not talking about Turkey. Pic related.

It is a simple fact that Muslims just will not coexist. They must be subjugated, as for example in Mindanao, or they will subjugate.

For over a thousand years governments, peoples, cultures, empires, nations, religions, states, and such have been trying to find a way to coexist with Islam. None have succeeded.

>>7374229
>>7374235
>using emoticon in an argument

>>7374238
Nice strawmen, reductionist points, and avoiding all the points I have made about your little blogpost, including the two studies I linked (in contrast to the 0 about ME haplogroups you have provided so far) and the fallacies like Simpson's paradox, providing emotionally-charged, politically-charged conclusions to data without ample evidence, and not addressing confounding variables in the blog.

Your knowledge of genetics and human history makes me think that you must be underage and if not, I hope someone puts your parents out of their misery by running you over.

You're an idiot. :)

>>7374234
>>7374195
>>7374174
i've never seen a more obvious samefag

>>7374244
nope. i'm >>7374174 (You)

>>7374244
Sorry, this isn't /pol/, you can't just yell NIGGERS or MUSLIMS and hope that people won't notice that you're talking out of your ass, well, rather repeating shit from somebody else's ass.

Keep embarrassing the white race and shit.

>>7371396
They can strip him of his public accolades, but they can't stop me from buying and reading his works if I wish to and that's what counts

>>7373789
We prefer the term "People of Color" magic

>>7371909
Do you even have to try as a black author?

>>7374263
Keep up with the ironic smiley faces and /pol/ accusations and memeing and pathetic signaling, you're just making yourself look like an idiot. Crime statistics, actually knowing and reading about civilizations and the course of history, and population genetics isn't "talking out of your ass". That's what you've been doing. You've done nothing but be a witty ebin memelord this entire thread.

You will continue to indirectly defend the increasingly clannish, tribal, and violent culture of Islam, a culture that practices cousin marriage, which directly affects the genetic relatedness between the individual members of a population, making individuals more related to their family members than would happen in an outbred society. Clannish and tribal culture is not conducive to a liberal, high-trust, civilized population, like literally any white civilization.

>“The largest impacts on consanguinity in the path models were produced by pathogen load and the effect of the percentage of Muslims within a nation. In the first path model the latter variable did not have a significant direct path to democracy, which suggests that its effects on democracy are largely mediated by consanguinity. Both pathogen prevalence and the influence of Islam have been described in the literature as having an inhibitory effect on democracy (e.g., Fincher et al., 2008; Fish, 2002; Fukuyama, 2001; Huntington, 1984; Thornhill et al., 2009). Here we indicate that these variables, which had previously been posited to have independent effects on democracy, are actually mediated by consanguinity.”

http://jcc.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/04/24/0022022112443855

>>7371909
>The novel takes place in a fictionalized post-apocalyptic future version of Sudan, where the light-skinned Nuru oppress the dark-skinned Okeke.
And she's complaining about racism?!

A white author would get lynched for something like that!

>>7373254
This.

>>7374294
OK. I accept everything you say. You won.

Please redpill me now by providing ME haplogroup studies you like and names of researchers you prefer, telling me what your research in ME haplogroups is about, and what books on ME history are the most factual and best to understand the region.

Thanks! I can't wait to learn from you. :)

>>7374324
Not him I'm just hopping in

>>7374352
That has nothing to do with ME haplogroups and Middle Eastern history. I asked specifically for that.

But Lovecraft eventually turned on his earlier views

>>7374357
And to clarify, since this is a literature board, I want books and academic research papers. Not reddit image macros. :)

>>7372889
>White Americans has no connection to Europe in any significant way
>literally same ethnicities
>literally (almost) same cultures
>no connection in any significant way

Kill yourself you apologist subhuman

>>7374365
>Anglo-saxon culture
>not the most disgusting degenerate culture in human history
It isn't European. It's of the devil.

>>7374324
It's been more than 20 minutes. I'm getting worried.

Please give me academic works about ME haplogroups and history. I really need to learn.

>>7374375
you've fucking buttraped that guy too hard already

do you really need to do this to him now

>>7374360
>so mad you're resorting to passive aggressive smiles like a female girl

Pathetic desu senpai

>>7372603
So what. It's not like people are going to stop reading Lovecraft's fiction because of some award most people don't know or care about.

>>7374386
https://www.reddit.com/r/polfacts/comments/2fj5g3/according_to_the_2010_national_crime/

Go back to reddit! :D

>>7373563
>inability to evoke any real emotions in the reader.
Which is why he's a popular author today right?
Dumbass.
>hurr he was just creative the only reasonhe's popular is he had a neat idea for a fantasy world
"Creativity" is meaningless.
Anybody can build a neat and interesting world they used to do it all the time on /tg/. There's a huge difference though between conceiving of an interesting world and actually WRITING a book about one that people actually want to read.

>>7374375
>>7374384
>constantly posting smiley faces
>getting antsy when someone hasn't replied for 20 minutes when the conversation has taken place over hours and hours

no joke this is giving me mental illness vibes, it's making the hair at the back of my neck stand up

>>7374394
>popular author today
Which he doesn't deserve. He's a horrid writer. "Dude Cthulhu lmao xD" people are insufferable as well.

>WRITING a book about one that people actually want to read makes Lovecraft great
Then I guess JK Rowling, Stephen King, and Stephanie Meyer are great as well.

He's a shit author. I don't care whether his face is on the statue or not. But he's horrible.

>>7374397
Who are you trying to fool then? :)

You're an idiot! :D
You're an idiot! :D
You're an idiot! :D

You're so dumb and mad that you can't just leave now. Fuck off and never come back to /lit/ unless you want me to rape you again. You're so stupid that I hope you get shot by a black man and he gets away with it. :D

Where's your literature on ME haplogroups, where's the description of your research, and where are the best books about ME history that you have read?

How can you claim to be an expert about a subject you have no knowledge about? :^)

>>7374367
You have a point there

>>7374417
>this damage control

lmao

>>7374235
>Why is it that only after Western intervention and support of terrorist groups in the region that thousands of Christians have fled?

That's wrong faggot.
Christians have fled the Middle East for hundreds of years. They have ALWAYS been an oppressed minority in Islamic society and your defense of their oppressors is disgusting to be completely frank.

>>7374426
Where's your literature on ME haplogroups, where's the description of your research, and where are the best books about ME history that you have read? :D

>>7374427
Here's some links made perfect for idiots like you
http://www.economist.com/blogs/erasmus/2014/07/iraqi-christians-and-west
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iraq

>>7374417
Literally autistic

>>7374406
I honestly don't think Lovecraft deserves to be lumped in with King, Rowling, Meyers et al. The "dude cthulu XD Redditors are annoying but Lovecraft shouldn't be judged by a portion of his fanbase. There are a multitude of emo scene faggots with terrible taste who wank over Poe without actually having read him but I don't judge Poe based on teenie boppers posting goth memes.

>>7374429
i'm not the same anon you're just autistic as fuck kek
you got btfo ages ago, accept it

>>7374441
Your argument was that the reason he's good was because of his popularity. I showed you that argument was baseless.

Lovecraft's quality of writing was terrible and he's not better than several sci-fi and fantasy writers.

>>7374406
>implying any of those authors will be read in a hundred years
>implying any of them will spawn generations worth of imitators

The fact that you even brought up Stephanie Meyer invalidates your opinions.
>Anything popular MUST be the equivalent of a trashy romance novel marketed to housewives and is therefore bad.
Die in a fire hipster.
Lovecraft's writing has withstood the test of time, and you are not a cool well-read intellectual for snobbishly dismissing him.

>>7374450
Lovecraft was shit. I'm not cool or intellectual for saying so. I'm being honest. He's terrible and I'm sad that I read his work and that he's popular. He's nothing but genre shit.

>>7374434
>Timur had 70,000 Assyrian Christians beheaded in Tikrit, and 90,000 more in Baghdad.[7][8]

Well you sure showed me!

>>7374465
So a group funded by the West killed Christians and forced them to flee after Western intervention? Yeah I did show you. Now fuck off.

>>7374459
>genre shit
:3

>>7374470
>Timur
>14th-century Muslim warlord of Turco-Mongol descent
>funded by the West

>>7374445
>your argument was that the reason he's good is because of his popularity

Anon that wasn't me, I was just jumping in based on the comparison to Rowling and shit. I'm not defending Lovecraft's writing abilities; he's sophomoric for sure, but you can't be serious if you think the aesthetic and worldbuilding of Harry Potter is anywhere near Lovecraft. One is Reddit-tier le wizard shit for children and one, while admittedly written in a pulpy style, is fairly adult and I think cosmic horror is an interesting concept while fanfiction-fuel is not. I could have done without Harry Pottter or teenage vampires.

>>7374442
You are that same anon. You're so fucking desperate. The reason I used those smilies is because it's so fun to trigger fucks like you.

Go masturbate now. I hear /trash/ has pony porn and loli so it's perfect for you.

>>7374476
In Iraq, Christians numbered about 1,500,000 in 2003, representing just over 6% of the population of the country down from 12% on 1947 in a population of 4.7 million.[citation needed] They numbered over 1.4 million in 1987 or 8% of the population.[1] After the Iraq War, it was estimated that the number of Christians in Iraq had dropped to less than 450,000 by 2013[2] — with estimates as low as 200,000.[3]

>>7374470
>le CIA is the reason the mujahideen exist and it's also the reason why the black community is in shambles!

Seriously just step away from the keyboard already, you're embarrassing yourself.

Hilarious that you would accuse others of being /pol/ when you engage in conspiracy theories like "the white man created jihad".

>>7374488
You are conspiracy-theory tier if you don't think the west provided funds and resources to terrorist groups and supported dictators in the Middle East.

>>7374488
>the west dindu nuffin

>>7374486
>12% in 1947
I'd just like to point out that at one time the Middle East was almost ENTIRELY Christian. So saying that they were 12% of the population in 1947 isn't really a point in Islam's favor.

>>7374486
Do you even read the shit you repost?

>>7374490
No it's conspiracy-theory tier to think that those dictators existed initially because of whites. Continue apologizing for Middle Eastern and African atrocities and pretending like the West didn't stir an already boiling pot.

You probably think Nelson Mandela was a hero of human rights as well?

>>7374497
Who installed and supported Saddam? Who removed him? Who supported al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden? Who supported the Saudis? Who made Iraq's boundaries and chose the monarch there?

>>7374490
>supported dictators in the Middle East
As opposed to whom exactly?

>>7374497
he doesn't care, he has an agenda

>>7374501
You going to address Mandanao yet or should I throw some tea on the burner?

>>7374499
After the Iraq War, the population fled by half. Why? Because of the fucking Iraq War. The West destroyed stability in Iraq, supported insurgent groups, destroyed infrastructure, crippled economy, let the army stay intact, and attempted to take over the new government with a coalition.

>>7373789
>black magic.

>>7374505
Are you going to give me the fucking ME haplogroup studies you love and work on and books on the history of the Middle East or not?

If you give me some books, I'll agree with everything you've been saying you fucktard

>>7374501
>Who installed and supported Saddam?
Arabs.
> Who removed him?
The United States of America
> Who supported al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden?
Arabs.
>Who supported the Saudis?
Arabs.
>Who made Iraq's boundaries and chose the monarch there?
The United Kingdom.

>>7374508
>Iraq
>stable

>>7374502
Well I don't know.

In Bahrain, there was a democratic revolt. Instead Britain and the US helped Saudi Arabia crush it over there.

In Saudi Arabia, Britain supported the Saudi tribe instead of Sharif Hashmi one.

In Iraq and Syria, Britain and France crafted nations and chose ineffectual monarchs to rule the country.

They supported unjust dictators like Saddam and the Shah in Iran.

They took down a democratically elected leader in Iran and the government in Afghanistan.

They support dictators in the Gulf.

They supported the military dictators in Egypt til the very end.

They supported Gaddhafi until there was a revolt and immediately supported al-Qaeda and other insurgents to take him down.

They supported ISIS, al-Nusra, and so many other terrorist groups.

>>7374508
>The West destroyed stability

Yes because rampant terrorism, rape, and jihad = stability.

>>7374512
Are you going to address ME cousin marriage and inbreeding as a major source of clannish, tribal, violent behavior that is an anathema to the neoliberal, high-trust, Western democracy culture that you so desperately defend? Let me know.

>>7374521
>rampant terrorism, rape, and jihad
Was that there during Saddam's Iraq?

You are an idiot and a fucktard.

Give me the studies you lying bastard.

You are so ignorant about history and genetics that it isn't even funny.

You act like an expert when you're just a fucking retard.

whats up guys, didnt read this thread lol

>>7374520
The fact you think Mossadegh was "democratically elected" invalidates any opinions you have.

Saying Iraq was more stable during Saddam's reign is the same as saying Hitler did a lot of good things for Germany. It's true, but it doesn't really matter. Saddam was still a piece of shit.

I'm not exactly pro-US either but that's a really weak argument to make. Focus more on our classifying Hezbollah as a terrorist group.

>>7374539
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh
Wikipedia provides three sources for that claim.

But I forgot "The West dindu nuffin! He wuz a good boy!"

Once again, you just prove that there are whites dumber than the dumbest nigger.

>>7374525
>Was that there during Saddam's Iraq?
I'm confused was Saddam just or unjust because on one hand you're calling him unjust then on the other you claim he prevented rampant terrorism, rape, and jihad?

Please pick a talking point and stick with it, don't just bounce around all willy nilly.

>>7374543
>bounce around all willy nilly
You provide a false dichotomy.

You say either a tyrant who killed innocent people and used chemical weapons to commit genocide against Kurds and in war against Iranians or total instability where terrorist groups the West supported run rampant and commit crimes against innocent people in the ME.

The West's actions led to both.

>>7374542
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh#Resignation_and_uprising

>On 16 July 1952, during the royal approval of his new cabinet, Mosaddegh insisted on the constitutional prerogative of the Prime Minister to name a Minister of War and the Chief of Staff, something the Shah had done up to that point. The Shah refused, seeing it as a means for Mosaddegh to consolidate his power over the government at the expense of the monarchy. In response, Mosaddegh announced his resignation appealing directly to the public for support,
> The National Front—along with various Nationalist, Islamist, and socialist parties and groups[33]—including Tudeh—responded by calling for protests, assassinations of the Shah and other royalists, strikes and mass demonstrations in favor of Mosaddegh. Major strikes broke out in all of Iran's major towns, with the Bazaar closing down in Tehran. Over 250 demonstrators in Tehran, Hamadan, Ahvaz, Isfahan, and Kermanshah were killed or suffered serious injuries
>After five days of mass demonstrations on Siyeh-i Tir (the 30th of Tir on the Iranian calendar), military commanders ordered their troops back to barracks, fearful of overstraining the enlisted men's loyalty and left Tehran in the hands of the protesters.[35] Frightened by the unrest, Shah dismissed Qavam and re-appointed Mosaddegh, granting him the full control of the military he had previously demanded.

Contrary to what the Black Lives Matter rioters claim, this is NOT what democracy looks like.

>>7374543
He doesn't give a shit, he has no real point to make and his ignorance of history is embarrassing.

According to him whites are the reason jihadists took to Paris and whites are the reason for the rape and slaughter in Mindanao. He probably thinks whites "installed" Saladin as well.

>>7374548
You said that Mossadegh wasn't democratically elected. He was and that's proven.

I'm not black and I don't care for BLM.

Do you think the West was justified in installing the Shah and supporting him against Mossadegh?

And all the people who were killed were people who supported Mossadegh against the Shah if you had some reading comprehension.

>>7374544
So essentially you're complaining that the West installed Saddam Hussein who brought stability to a region full of Islamic extremists, while simultaneously complaining about the instability and terrorism that exists in that region post-Saddam.

>>7374552
"The West dindu nuffin! We wuz a gud boyy!"

>>7374557
There weren't Islamic extremists running around before Saddam.

They came because the West created a power vacuum in Iraq you fucking retard and they supported insurgents in the ME since the 70s to create unstable conditions, which guess what? It fucking happened.

You're saying that either complete instability created by the West or a Western-supported dictator should occur in Iraq. You give no room for a third option because you're an idiot.

>>7374556
No he wasn't.
He resigned from office, was replaced, and then reinstated WITHOUT ELECTION by the Shah after rioting mobs threatened to plunge the country into civil war.

If someone is APPOINTED into power they are by definition NOT democratically elected.

>Do you think the West was justified in installing the Shah and supporting him against Mossadegh?
Yes.
The Shah was force for modernization that dramatically increased literacy in Iran and brought their economy into the 20th century.

>>7374560
>There weren't Islamic extremists running around before Saddam.
You're kidding right.
It's literally the default religion of the region.

>You give no room for a third option because you're an idiot.
I give no third option because there is no third option.

>>7374561
Have you heard of SAVAK? Do you know what Mossad and the CIA did in Iran?

He was initially elected and the West removed him then you idiot.

Your support for the Shah who was an ineffectual leader and your lack of information about who led to policy changes in Iran shows that you are ignorant and not well-read.

>>7374558
"The West", which includes the Jews you were so voraciously defending earlier, were proficient enough to build a dominant world empire in order to affect those changes in the Middle East while the Middle East was busy rolling around in its own shit, which the Middle East has continued to do for centuries.

Jihad is inherent in the scripture of the Koran, which is a reflection of the violent culture of the Middle East, and culture is an expression of biology. Keep apologizing for clannish, tribal populations that hate you and wish to see your destruction. I'm sure that will work out for you in the end.

>>7374558
The West is the best thing that ever happened to your shithole desert 2bh

>>7374560
>There weren't Islamic extremists running around before Saddam.

top WOW

>>7374567
>default religion of the region
OK. Thanks for telling me that you haven't read any good books about the ME's history.

>I give no third option because there is no third option
According to some fuck nobody cares about on 4chan, OK. Good for you.

Yeah, have fun dehumanizing people without having any good knowledge about their cultures, beliefs, ideas, and history.

>>7374576
Name them. What Islamic extremist groups where in Iraq killing and raping people during Saddam's time like al-Qaeda and ISIS have done?

>>7374574
You're an idiot.

>>7374570
>He was initially elected and the West removed him then you idiot.
He was initially elected and then resigned.
You keep leaving that key part out.

>The Shah
>ineffective leader
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Revolution
>There was a minor industrial revolution during this period of reform. Port facilities were improved, the Trans-Iranian Railway was expanded, and the main roads connecting Tehran and provincial capitals were asphalted. Many small factories opened up specializing in clothing, food processing, cement, tiles, paper, and home appliances. Larger factories for textiles, machine tools, and car assembly were also opened.[6] Educational institutions also grew after the launching of the White Revolution. Enrollment in kindergarten increased from 13,300 to 221,990, elementary schools from 1,640,000 to 4,080,000, secondary schools from 370,000 to 741,000 and colleges from 24,885 to 145,210. Not only were new schools opening, but they were also instituting new educational policies designed to undercut clerical control over education and religious education. The Literacy Corps also helped raise the literacy rate from 26 to 42 percent. The White Revolution also included certain reforms of women’s rights. Women gained the right to vote, to run for elected office and to serve as lawyers and later judges. The marriageable age for women was also raised to fifteen.[7]

>you are ignorant and not well-read.
an ironic statement from someone who only has a meme level conception of history.

>>7374324
>>7374375
Oh man, you're cruel.

Also wow, it's still going on.

Also why even Iraq, go back to Operation Ajax, fucking up a democratic election and stunning the growth of an entire country, further destabilising the region at the time when Saddam started to learn that boobs are nice.

>>7374578
You've done nothing but demonstrate you are not well-versed in history.

The subjugation of American blacks by American whites pales in comparison to the historic violence the ME. American slavery adds up to maybe a slow Saturday in the Muslim world.

Any group of non-Muslims which has had to live around Muslims for any time (except maybe in Bosnia and Central Asia) can tell you the same thing: Muslims are violent and savage.

Muslims just don’t do well in modern western countries. They don’t assimilate and they don't adapt. They also don’t accept other faiths. Open a Christian church in Saudi Arabia and report back on your findings.

Fellow Muslims don’t even seem interested in helping the displaced refugees currently flooding into Germany. They fight with each other and they fight with non-Muslims.

>>7374582
Why are you asking him for examples of Islamic extremists DURING Saddam's reign when he mocked you for saying there weren't Islamic extremists running around BEFORE Saddam?

>>7374592
You don't know who the policy makers were in the White Revolution. The Shah had little to do with this.

And for your information, literacy and scientific development went up after the Islamic Revolution as well. Does that mean Khumayni is a great leader and the West should support Khameini?

You are a fucking idiot.

>>7374603
My mistake. Tell me ones before Saddam.

>>7374598
What books have you read about ME history?

Please tell me so I can have the same opinions like you like a good redpilled boy and stop having this white guilt!

>>7374593
He's still not provided one work of lit.

I'm just super bored after taking an exam today. Just wasting time listening to a lecture and shitposting here.

>>7374605
>The Shah had little to do with this.
That's funny I thought he was a dictator.
Turns out he wasn't running the country after all.
> Does that mean Khumayni is a great leader and the West should support Khameini?
Khomeini clearly WAS a great leader, the fact he was my nation's enemy does not detract from that.

Oh and fyi Khomeni and Khameini are two different Ayatollahs.

>>7374630
>he wasn't running the country after all
He was. He was living in opulence and used SAVAK to kill political opponents and innocent civilians.

His policy makers and Mossadegh caused these reforms. It's like saying the Tanzimat reforms came because of the caliph when it was because of the wuzara.

>Khomeini and Khameini are two different
I know that. After the Islamic revolution, Khumayni was in power. Now Khameini is in power. Don't be an idiot.

>WAS a great leader
I don't get it. Are you an ideological supporter of democracy, the West, or neither?

You stated you like the Shah because of his reforms and you hate Mossadegh because he wasn't re-instituted democratically though the people liked him.

>>7374643
You're fucking brutal man. Let them go

>>7374643
>Mossadegh caused these reforms
Are you fucking kidding me?

> Are you an ideological supporter of democracy, the West, or neither?
Are you saying I can't simultaneously support the West and recognize that it takes great leadership ability to take over a country, rule it in face of brutal war and crushing sanctions and then die of old age?

Furthermore I never said I hated Mossadegh because he wasn't democratically elected.
I hate that people use him to claim that the West overthrew a democratically elected leader in Iran. We did no such thing. We aided the Shah in a counter-coup against the populist strong-man that was poised to take over Iran and possibly drag them behind the Iron Curtain.

Mossadegh is a meme pushed by left-wing subversives to discredit Western civilization and left-wing subversives make me sick.

>>7374658
You must be kidding me because you think the Shah spearheaded these reforms.

And the fact that you support this brutal leader who killed innocent people and increased income inequality through his oppression against a populist leader shows that you are not only an idiot who has not read a single good book on the region's history but you are also a sociopath who sees people as merely things to be sacrificed for power.

I think Khuymani was a great leader as well and I respect him greatly but he also did human rights offenses as well, even against the Shia ulama.

>>7374658
Also "The West dindu nuffin! We wuz a good boyyy!"

You don't have to feel guilty for what your governments do but supporting them and hiding their injustices makes you a revolting and ignorant man.

>>7374661
>You must be kidding me because you think the Shah spearheaded these reforms.

Prove me wrong.

>>7374616
You're relying on your opponent to make claims in the hopes that he will eventually slip up and you can exploit his mistake. Don't do this. It's poor logic and irritating to read. If he's wrong then you need to show him why he's wrong. Asking a never-ending series of questions is not a refutation

>>7374658
Also the CIA and Mossad supported SAVAK and did political assassinations in Iran during the Shah's time. 1953 wasn't the only crime.

>>7374658
>"In 1953 the United States played a significant role in orchestrating the overthrow of Iran's popular Prime Minister, Mohammed Massadegh. The Eisenhower Administration believed its actions were justified for strategic reasons; but the coup was clearly a setback for Iran's political development. And it is easy to see now why many Iranians continue to resent this intervention by America in their internal affairs."
>popular Prime Minister
>popular
>the coup was clearly a setback for Iran's political development
Source:http://fas.org/news/iran/2000/000317.htm

>>7374663
I hide nothing.
I just don't care because there is no justice in this world beyond that which the West forces on the rest of it.

>>7374668
so what?
Repression and political assassinations are part of their culture, we were just trying to fit in.

>>7374663
>>7374643
You still haven't addressed the fact that the ME was a shithole before any kind of white intervention happened.

Why was it the West that was able to climb itself into a position to "subjugate" the ME and not the other way around?

Are you going to address Mindanao? Are you going to address the atrocities in Turkey? Have you even read the Koran and are you aware that fundamental distrust and conquest of non-Muslims is inherent in their ideology? Coupled with inbreeding and cousin marriage the ME has been a cesspit for some time and they have caused problems for the world on a global scale. This is not just the ME against America or against Europe, they are a problem for everybody.

>>7374667
He's made several mistakes and I've pointed them all out. If his premise is based on falsehoods and reductionist theories, then he has no argument.

I want him to give me a book because this is /lit/, not /pol/ so he must do his reading before talking about subjects. He also claimed he read books and was an expert on these subjects.

Don't support an idiot.

>>7374666
Hassan Arsanjani

>>7374667
We've tried to explain this to him but he's content with posting a neverending stream of "you're an idiot" and ironic smiley faces.

>>7374674
You are a sociopath.

The West establishes these conditions, they start these problems and instate sociopaths who cause these problems, and then you blame it on the culture.

Fuck you.

>>7374671
You are an idiot who did no reading about the ME.

>>7374675
I'm not arguing for or against any of that. Your strawmen mean nothing to me.

The fact you ask such foolish questions shows to me that all you've been doing is lying and parroting information you get from /pol/.

Go back there.

>>7374670
I never said Mossadegh wasn't popular.
Turns out promising people free shit is a great way to receive a bump in the polls, who knew?

>the coup was clearly a setback for Iran's political development
Only idiots think and Marxists think politics and history follow a set growth cycle.

>>7374670
>journalist said it was clearly a setback
>that means it's true

This is how I know you are not well-versed in history despite your attempts to convince everyone here otherwise.

>>7374680
>"Islam dindu nuffin! He was good boy!"

>>7374677
It's because you don't deserve any serious responses. How arrogant you guys are to think your ideas are worth any intelligent discussion!

You have not mentioned one academic study or well-written book about the things I have asked but instead give ignorant opinion after ignorant opinion.

I'm doing this because I'm bored. I don't care for a bunch of weebs.

>>7374685
Well, the quote is straight from the Murican guberment, from 2000.

Also I am not sure if you don't understand what popular means in this context or pretend not to.

>>7374676
>He's made several mistakes and I've pointed them all out.

Nothing of the sort happened. Try again., You keep saying "falshoods" and "reductionist theories" but you never explain.

>The West establishes these conditions, they start these problems and instate sociopaths who cause these problems, and then you blame it on the culture.

The ME was a clannish, tribal, and violent cesspit before white intervention. Read more history.

>I'm not arguing for or against any of that
>The fact you ask such foolish questions

So you're not arguing against it but it's foolish?

>go back to /pol/

I don't browse /pol/. You're worse than the /pol/fags with your incessant signaling. Signaling and memes are not an argument. Literally anyone who disagrees with you is shunted into a box labeled "other" and ignored. Hilarious.

>>7374686
I'm not him and it was a setback.

>>7374685
It has nothing to do with "progressivism". It has to do with potential reformations. The Shah committed atrocities and hurt the poor and farming class. The coup destroyed Iran in the future and the Iran-Iraq War which the West supported and the West's economic sanctions hurt the country to such an extent that it's irreversible.

>>7374690
Did I ever argue for this? You are arguing for the opposite. Nice strawman btw.

>>7374676
>Hassan Arsanjani
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasan_Arsanjani
>introduced the program of land reform in Iran.

Land reform was only minor one aspect of the Shah's White Revolution.

>>7374680
>You are a sociopath.

That's fine and dandy, but so you agree that repression and political assassination was part of their culture?

Why was the ME in a position to be exploited like this? Why was the West the one to do the exploiting and not the other way around? Surely it couldn't be the vast history of violence and corruption in the ME!

>>7374680
>You are a sociopath.
My psychiatrist disagrees.

>>7374700
I explained all of them. You are so ignorant you don't realize your own ignorance.

Look at the race study I linked above. Look at Arsanjani. Look at the 1953 coup. Look at what happened in Bahrain recently. Look at why Saudi is in power. Look at ISIS. Look at all this fucking shit.

>clannish, tribal, and violent cesspit before white intervention. Read more history
Tell me what book then.

>So you're not arguing against it but it's foolish?
Nice reading comprehension.

>>7374692
>the ME only turned to shit after the Iraq war

Bravo!

Your entire argument is fucking retarded. Study more history.

>>7374708
I don't care. I hope you don't shoot up a school like mentally ill white people seem to love doing. It must have a biological component to it, right?

>>7374706
>repression and political assassination was part of their culture
No.
>Why?
Read some fucking books. Don't come to /lit/ and expect to get away with not reading anything.

>>7374686
>journalist
Once again you prove that you can't even read. Why are you on /lit/ again? There is an entire board for idiots who struggle with reading and thinking, did you get lost or something?

>>>/pol/

>>7374696
The quote is straight from Madeleine Albright who is not the American government, she was the secretary of state under Bill Clinton.

A speech given by a politician at a summit to improve relations with Iran should not be cited as a definitive statement on the ramifications of history.

>>7374713
Where did I say that?

Tell me what book since you're an expert. Also get me the ME haplogroup studies please and tell me about your research project.

>>7374704
Wikipedia doesn't have everything. Amini was part of it as well. The Shah took their achievements and when the revolution hurt the farming class and landlords and clerics, he blamed it on them.

You're such an idiot.

>>7374715
>I hope you don't shoot up a school like mentally ill white people seem to love doing
Racist.

>>7374715
>white people are biologically predisposed to shooting up schools

Funny because the amount of white people shooting up schools compared to the entire population pales (lol) in comparison to the amount of blacks gunning each other down in the streets in Chicago and Detroit every day compared to their entire population, or the vast history of atrocities in Africa before white colonization. But again, that's all because of whites anyway isn't it?

>>7374724
Their alleged achievements would not have existed in the first place without the Shah's support. Making your point moot.

>>7374727
I'm joking while you are an actual racist who dehumanizes people even though scientific studies have proven you wrong about human genetic variation and there are several confounding variables part of your hypothesis about genetics and violence in cultures of people you don't like, including the violent and sneaky actions of the nations you live in and support.

>>7374724
>Where did I say that?

So the ME was shit before the Iraq war?

Get your story straight please.

Why was the ME in a position to be exploited by the West? You refuse to answer.

>>7374723
Yes and she didn't speak on behalf of her government, she simply walked on stage and started spewing random shit for the lulz. Great theory.

>A speech given by a politician at a summit to improve relations with Iran should not be cited as a definitive statement on the ramifications of history.
Amazing, so whatever the guberments says doesn't matter if you don't like the context.

>>7374730
It's a joke.

>>7374733
So did the Ottoman caliphs cause the tanzimat reforms or did the wuzura?

The Shah didn't craft these programs. The US told him to make these programs, he told these political leaders who the populace like to plan ideas, they told the people to follow them, and they worked.

The Shah did nothing. He didn't plan these things. He just followed the US' orders and let them enact their vision.

He did kill innocent people though which you support like a sociopath.

>>7374734
Not once have I made a single racist statement in this thread.

>>7374740
>It's a joke
No, you're just a hypocrite.

>>7374734
>scientific studies have proven you wrong about human genetic variation

You're a fucking idiot and you're making a category error.

Is there variation or are we all the same? You say "racist" but there can only be a racist if you acknowledge the difference between races. And if there are differences then there objectively exists a natural hierarchy, which you refuse to acknowledge every single time I ask you to.

>violent and sneaky actions of [the West]
>violent and sneaky

You mean like bombing and shooting up a concert of innocent people in Paris? Give me a fucking break. ME culture is written in the blood of multitudes but you'll defend the very people that would cut your head off with a rusty knife.

>>7374737
This is what they think:
>When the government says the things I like, then it represents me. When it doesn't, it's just a politician I don't like!
>>7374735
Why were they? Colonialism, imperialism, the British and French taking control of the 1916 Arab Revolt and the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

The West likes using power vacuums to cause instability to get resources and establish political hegemony. They did it in Iraq and Libya recently.

>>7374744
>being openly racist
>getting this salty over a joke
Okay. You must be trolling. Right? Please confirm, sempai.

>>7374737
This may come as a shock and a surprise to you but America is an ACTUAL democracy not a pretend one like the Mossadegh regime and in actual democracy the opinions of individual politicians do not represent the opinion of the United States.

>>7374751
Individual politicians are simply walking around and saying whatever they feel like? Weird, I thought US of A had elections, where the plebs actually vote for people to represent them … my bad.

>>7374750
That's the first post I've made in this thread, but you are most certainly a hypocrite if you've spent this entire time whining about racial prejudice and then engage in it yourself the minute the opportunity arises

>>7374743
Yeah sure.

>>7374744
OK. Whatever you say. White people seem to have thin skin. I guess melanin provides some resistance to getting offended and triggered.

>>7374746
Did you read the innumerable studies on human genetic variation?

Also take a look at Simpson's paradox. I'm not saying we're all the same and that race doesn't exist. You have no reading comprehension and love to make strawmen.

>ME culture is written in the blood of multitudes
What book told you that? Where do you get this information?

I've read several books on the ME, I learned Arabic, I've went to the ME.

>>7374737
Yes and Saddam and Mossadegh the Shah and didn't do what they did because of why they said they did it, they did it because they were installed by the evil white government and for the lulz, and if you don't buy the official guberment story you're an idiot.

You realize how hypocritical you sound? You're just firing on all cylinders. This is fucking boring now honestly.

>>7374740
>The Shah did nothing
Except allow these reforms to be enacted.
:3

>>7374752
Do you know how a democracy works? Be honest now.

>>7374752
Madeleine Albright was never elected by the "plebs" to represent them.
:3

>>7374755
Why is acknowledging your hypocrisy so difficult for you? Did you not realize you were a hypocrite before I made my post? The first step to overcoming your hypocrisy is to recognize that you are a hypocrite. Do you recognize that you are a hypocrite?

>>7374757
Because the US prompted them to. Will you blame the US for the problems it caused farmers then?

Whose to blame for the excesses? The Shah? Or was it Arsanjani who did get blamed for it? Or was it the US?

Why does the Shah get credit for crafting these plans which you said when he didn't? You are a fucking idiot.