/lit/ - Literature

>>7303435
Not much, if that's an axiom of your reality.
However, you wouldn't be shitposting right now if that actually was the case, would you?

The problem of nihilism is that it connects a "reason to live" with an outside source. When it fails to find any outside source that can legitimately provide reasons to live, the nihilist succumbs to his deathly wishes. OP, you need to understand that although the world can't give you reason, you can create them and follow them through.

>>7303435

Reasons to live come from within, not from without. Strive for greatness at any purpose or endeavors that truly appeal to you.

p.s. nihilists are pussies

>>7303441
How's that?

>>7303464
lmoa YOLO amirite anon? xD

>>7303443
But why would I?

>>7303443
>>7303464
These

>>7303494

Why wouldn't you? If nothing matters, you might as well.

If you're put off because effort is hard, you're not even an nihilist, just lazy.

>>7303494
it's not a question of logic, it's a question of drives

if your only drive is a death drive then there's really nothing for you to do except kill yourself

not that that is the case

>>7303464
But when I look within I can give the exact same line of reasoning which happens to be true and any attempt to develop in reasons comes into conflict with this omniscient, overbearing truth

>>7303505
*Hard and meaningless. If things which require effort are as meaningless as things which do not then why would I exert effort on the harder and equally value-barren option? To me laziness is the product of this truth not the cause

>>7303506
Yes, I have drives but they have nothing meaningful to be directed to. In order to put these drives into action I have to convince myself it's worth doing. There is nothing worth doing, so I don't. I don't see anyway of overcoming this other than lying and saying: 'ok, this doesn't matter but just pretend it does' which doesn't work for me

>>7303534
how does it not matter
if you like it it matters
christianity created the false world and the real world, in earth and heaven
when christianity lost its power, this "real" world disappeared, but with it vanished also the "false" world
transcendental meaning never existed, but you falsely believe your center of gravity to be in the hole it left, which is a lie
just believe in yourself

>>7303435
a strong dose of Spinoza will do you good.

The issue with nihilists is that they take on this fatalist attitude, always looking for a finality (most commonly objective meaning, which is naturally never found) instead of looking at the movement or process operating as a means towards it. Meaning necessarily is an endpoint, and not a movement towards something else - why focus on the endpoint too far in the distance to see, while we have movement - life, consciousness, desire - right beneath our fingertips? Is that not where 'meaning', however evasive, may be found?

why do you want to overcome it?
what do you want, really?
first, find what you want, then pursue it.

>>7303494
Again, there is no outside source that can provide you with a why or how.

But think about this: why have not you killed yourself by now? Because you still cling to life, your will is still drawn upon life and its pleasures, routines and torments. You can embrace these or cower in despair. I don't believe you can derive an ought from an is (the naturalistic fallacy), and then won't say that which makes you feel pleasure is what you ought to be doing. You can only act through your will, and you can set up anything.

Do you believe every single person must earn the right to do nothing?
If so, those who pester you are questioning your efforts.
If not, ask yourself why you haven't already fended off the pests.

>>7303519

Why wouldn't you exert effort? Unless of course, that for some reason, you hold the value that unnecessary effort should not be exerted.

You could just as well take productivity as the truth of that cause instead of laziness.

>>7303435
Egoistic hedonism did the trick for me.

>>7303435

this >>7303661 op

Meaning is based on context. Each thought works under its according language-game. If you attribute the wrong thought to the wrong language-game, you're going to come across philosophical problems.

For more information, read Philosophical Investigations by Ludwig Wittgenstein.

Every morning ask yourself, "What would Witty do?" ;)

>>7303672
>"What would Witty do?" ;)
Have gay sex?

Here is what Wittgenstein would say: "The proposition that your action has such and such a cause is a hypothesis. The hypothesis is well-founded if one has had a number of experiences which ... agree in showing that your action is the regular sequel of certain conditions which we then call causes of the action. In order to know the reason which you had for making a certain statement ... no number of agreeing experiences is necessary, and the statement of your reason is not a hypothesis."

>>7303672
>>7303685
The reason I said 'no freddy' is because he's either too ambiguous and there a million ways to interpret him which all seem sort of plausible or because I just don't get him. The chances I'll understand Wittgenstein are about 0. But thanks

>>7303654
Because there is no effort to be exerted. I can't exert effort on something in which I have no reason to exert it because it is an act of volition and inaction is not

>>7303555
Because being alive is deeply unenjoyable for me.

A reason to do things

>>7303545
this tbh
Quietism and habit of effort are probably the easiest ways of traversing life regardless of your (lack of) feelings. Since you're not gonna kill yourself, you may as well pass the time somewhat serenely with the distractions that life offers. A Drive in the Country by Graham Greene covers this really well btw, really changed my outlook on things.

>>7303710
Well said!>>7303716 kinda feel the same

>>7303661
Fair enough. What are your views on the types of actions where a soldier jumps in front of a grenade and things of that nature

>>7303710

If the basic premise is that nothing matters, why is the difference between volition and inaction important?

>>7303740
Volition i.e. an act of will requires the appearance of meaning. One can not will nothing.

>>7303674
"If it's good enough for Witty, it's good enough for you."

>>7303435
Become a yea-sayer instead of a nay-sayer.

>>7303672
>Philosophical Investigations by Ludwig Wittgenstein
This shitposting will never end, will it?

>>7303699
Freddy is worth getting though, much more so than Wittgenstein. He's the most life-affirming philosopher ever.

Start with the die froliche Wissenschaft if you want a start.

>>7303435
Actually taking Nihilism seriously. Properly seriously. People who find it depressing aren't: they're starting off with the assumption that there's something and getting dissapointed when they can't prove this. If you take it seriosuly, you start off with the asusmption that there's nothing and experience surprise and elation in that there is, in fact, something.

>>7303825
What on earth are you talking about

Enjoy yourself.

>>7303672
>Every morning ask yourself, "What would Witty do?" ;)

This

>>7303672
Why is Witty such a shitty Freddy?

>>7303672
>For more information, read Philosophical Investigations by Ludwig Wittgenstein.

I thought witty was an autismo but this sounds pretty interesting, can you understand 'Philosophical Investigations' with no required/supplementary reading?

>>7303435
My approach is a purely egoistical point of view.: I do only what brings me joy. Now you have to convince yourself, that the things you really need bring you joy: either directly or by avoiding great un-joy (nice word I come up with eh?) Nothing matters, but I want to do x, or y or z, because I feel it is a good idea at this point in time, because it is fun, because everything will be better then, because it brings me joy in this and that way etc." You can apply this to anything. From doing house work, to studying (you can derive joy e.g. from helping weaker students with your knowledge), to going to work (after work I have time to play games, meet friends, surf the web, masturbate etc.)

Can you really gain peace of mind with analytic philosophy though?

I got u fam

>>7303885
Aren't you just kidding yourself? I don't know how someone can seriously say scrubbing the toilet brings them joy. Mild satisfaction once it's done maybe... but joy?

>>7303896
I got offended by it calling me a baby and stopped reading

>>7303915
Well if its only my own toilets, then what I said above applies here also: When I don't scrubb it, , shit is about to arrive sooner or later.

>>7303889
Obviously. It's the only way. Specially if you do mathematical philosophy (a subset of analytical philosophy).

>>7303878
Yes, but there's not much to get.

>>7303885
Does it not feel cheap to just live after your pleasure? I'm not trying to say it's wrong, seriously asking if it does not feel kind of like 'really, is this all my life is' sometimes

Eternal recurrence, faggot.

>>7303947
You can do thought out, meaningful stuff, as long as you feel good for doing it. You have to know, how it makes your life better.

>>7303952
>what if things which aren't true were true, wouldn't that make you change the way you live

Woah, great

>>7303878
No. You won't understand shit if you are not aware of the works of the Vienna Circle, Frege and Russell. Also, you should have understood the Tractatus.

Don't listen to the fagoot who said "There isn't much to get". That is simply nonsense.

>>7303960
But if doing something you felt thoughtful which was hard and perhaps unrewarding you wouldn't do it? Basically, do you only see right and wrong insofar as what makes you feel good or do you even take concepts like right or wrong into account

>>7303965
>needing ""truths"" to have beliefs

There's no "truth" in desires, my will to fuck hot girls isn't about truth, and basing your actions on truth is systematizing and anti-life.

>>7303973
>nonsense

Nonsense is saying witty is worth reading.

Witty is overrated as all fuck. Heidegger is so much better

>>7303978
Well is that not what everyone else does but is just too scared to say it?

>>7303978
An example from my own life: I had an extreme hard time in university and came to the conclusion it would be best to quit and search a more simple job. It was the best for me.

>>7303978
Its nonsense to say people do what they don't want to do

>>7303995
Pussy. Quitter. Slave. Willer of death.

>>7303991
I feel like you're still stuck in the fly bottle. Did you not fully understand the Investigations??

>>7303993
Well, I think the difference is that if you were true to your philosophy you wouldn't see those things as things that are wrong but you just ignore them so that life is bearable, but rather that you genuinely feel they don't matter

>>7303789

>die froliche Wissenschaft
hahah GAAAAAAAAAY

also
> the die
> the the

also I actually agree with this recommendation

>>7304000
You see, I just want to lead a silent life, nothing extraordinary.

>>7303996
So a person says and feela they don't want to go to the dentist but they do it any way. That whole idea is nonsense to you?

>>7303725
>types of actions where a soldier jumps in front of a grenade and things of that nature
You mean like self sacrifice? I find self sacrifice to be one the most stupid thing anyone can do.

>>7303443
Tbh I think connecting reason to live to an outside source is just an incomplete nihilism. Finding the freedom to make one's own value and meaning is the only next step that leads to anything nice.

>>7304006
But has your life actually changed from reading it

>>7303443
WRONG

OP is absolutely right to seek a principle higher than himself. The only thing that would justify you being the highest principle is if you created the world, if you were the substance of reality (solipsism). Really, this is the Cartesian ego, "I think, therefore I am", which naturally leads to the idea that your thought is what makes up reality.

No, you did not create this world. You are subject to laws and principles higher than yourself. OP is absolutely correct to seek for the meaning of things outside of himself.

>>7304012
Believe me, one or two nights, not able to sleep because of pain, and you WANT to see the dentist.

>>7304003
I've only read commentary on it and it's all boring as fuck. Tbh fam we only have a few years and I'd rather read my guys who are much more life affirming than autgenstein.

You do realize that reading an intro to modern linguistics text is going to advance your understanding vastly beyond witty, right?

>>7304022
This is just liberal drivel. It's insufferable. No, being a law unto yourself, making up your own morality and your own reality, is not the foundation of "niceness". It's a justification for psychopathy.

>>7304022
I want this but it doesn't mean anything to me. What the fuck is one's own value in any real, applicable non-airy fairy capacity. Like for you, if you've followed your advice, what are some of your values if you don't mind sharing

>>7304012
Yes, having to choose between a bunch of shitty things doesn't mean you're not picking the preferred option. So what you said is nonsense, yes.

>>7304011
Then become a utilitarian, read Zarathustra's description of last men for a guide, and buy lots of junk food. Maybe a prescription for sedatives. Adderall and weed, high 24/7 so you don't have to open your eyes. And a gun so you can make sure you don't live when you feel like suicide.

>>7304023

Yes. For real. I've spent like five years working out the insides of my head.

But now that I am, I am extremely well-read, I'm active in local politics, I have a gf, and generally I have got my mind firing on all cylinders.

>>7303991
>he hasn't learned that philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language
>saying heidegger, who will only bewitch you further is the solution

Top kek

>>7304006
Yeah idk why I put the in front. The homosexual science is one of Nietzsche's more readable works and is very positive

Read Aristotle. Nihilism is a result of modern philosophy beginning with Descartes. From Descartes' false theory of mind we get the notion that man is trapped in his own head, that he thinks about his thoughts and senses his own senses, that he only sees "phenomena" and the real substances that make up the world. Once you banish a man to his own private mental world without any connection to the objective order of things he will inevitably go mad. Modern philosophy is madness.

The problem is this. Modern philosophers have the notion that when we think our ideas are the object of our thoughts; and when we sense things what we are seeing or hearing is the impression made on our senses - in other words, we see our own sight. This is false, this is blindness. We don't think about our ideas, our ideas are that by which we think about actual THINGS. Similarly, we don't see our sight or hear our hearing; sight is that by which we see actual THINGS, in the real world. Our minds have direct access to the world. We are not trapped inside our own private mental realms.

>>7304054
Any wisdom to impart on how to overcome nihilism?

>>7304059
>denying life
>denying philosophers
You're recommending nihilism to OP. Get off this ride you nay-sayer, you're not welcome.

Being anti-philosophical is not new or interesting. Your entire post is contained within Nietzsche already, as should be no surprise. But to reject it out of hand is nihilism

>>7304053
Yes, I may be a Utilitarian. But what you describe doesn't sound like the life I have in mind.

>>7304062
You can't know this

>>7304062
Duh, narcissus will live a long life as long as he never knows his SELF.

The self needs to be eradicated. Again, straight from Nietzsche.

Literally every good point against nihilism ever exists somewhere in Nietzsche.

Become what you already are.

>>7304074
Yes it is. You just haven't realized how deceptive the concepts you believe in are.

Happiness is the biggest con and the Anglo's curse upon the world.

>>7304074
Just so you know some edgy faggot hijacked the conversation we were having before. I don't believe any of the dumb shit this sad sack is spouting

>>7304028
>I've only read commentary on it

nuff said lol

>>7304062
Foundationalism?

>>7304025
A lot of things should be higher than your self. The self is a fictional metaphysics we put too much weight on. Emerge as something new, a butterfly from the eternal cocoon.

>>7304095
Yup. You already got your recommendation in, now you can stop talking about him.

>>7304088
I am not happy but I definitely don't want to be unhappy also. My motivation is to keep things running and in the process achieving what I can.

>>7304089
>being this angry about my yea-saying

I like you anon, but don't get angry

>>7304110
Don't desire either. Desire something better.

People care way too much about happiness.

>>7304038
That's because you're still looking for something outside yourself to tell you what to do. You need to adjust yourself to stop wanting that.

>>7304032
Only if you're a psychopath. I've lived with this belief for years and people think I'm a pleasant fellow. Having long term goals puts a real dent in the utility of being a dick.

>>7304118
>criticism = anger

I just think you're wrong and want to clarify something to the guy you're talking to. Don't assign yourself more importance in the minds of others than there is.

>>7304126
I don't think I am, I just don't understand the concept. I look inside and I see nothing which is giving me any direction to values that's for sure

>>7304128
That's good advice. I'm just saying that Wittgenstein is terrible fucking advice for some pleb who's a "nihilist". He is interesting but I fucking hate his fanboys. No, he didn't solve philosophy and he's really pretty narrow and matters in only a few fringe ways in analytic philosophy.

>>7304124
True without a doubt. Now I'm at the end of my words.

>>7304133
Are you not the: "Pussy. Slave." guy?

>>7304149
I am.

>>7304131
It starts with action and goals, which can be arbitrary or wrong to begin with so long as you continue seeking.
Most of my lifestyle and though spins off from what I think suits my own desires and talents, which you only really learn through life experience. I think Aristotle said that the young shouldn't study philosophy, partly for this reason. It's easy to get wrapped up in things that are no good or you and only exist in your head.

>>7304157
Oh, then yeh, all I said I stand by

>>7304070
I didn't take one word from Nietzsche.

>>7304069

I still struggle with the existential crisis ("how should I act?") every single day. However, I consider this a position of strength. Gives a lot of flexibility and meaning to every self-willed action.

Also I really like the approach detailed in http://crimethinc.com/texts/atoz/experimentation.php

>Joining the Experimentation Committee is not only a matter of experimenting in means, but also in ends: not just acting according to values—however “radical”—but, as Nietzsche put it, revaluating them.[1] This kind of behavior is no walk in the park. Those who have chosen a project or direction can at least evaluate their success according to an external measure; without this convenience, there is no staving off self-doubt and existential crises. The Experimentation Committee is not for the faint of heart.

>>7304165
Not what I'm saying, I'm saying Nietzsche covers anti-nihilism from top to bottom so your words are a redundancy

>>7304163
What do you stand by?

>Wittgenstein
>the problem with logical positivism is the hermeneutic problem
>wow so deep

>>7304177
That you're an edge lord with nothing interesting to say

>>7304190
Only in TLP. Witty shrugged verificationism in PI (reasonably) because it doesn't take into account contextual linguistic paradigms (i.e., language-games).

>>7304212
Welcome to Nietzsche. Rules matter in only their application.

>>7304194
thanks for sharing your opinions

Become a meta-nihilist and see how quickly the proposition of existential nihilism falls apart from an outside perspective.

>>7304231
What do you mean

>>7304242
take a lot of acid and then stop being.

>>7303435
Zhuangzi said: "Happiness is the absence of the striving for happiness".

Likewise, nihilism is overcome by ceasing to find nihilism problematic and trying to get away from it. Nihilism is overcome by acceptance.

>>7304277
But how?

>>7304277
This is like the advice of telling someone who's broken their leg to just stop being in pain.

>>7304280
Nihilism is probably problematic in the same way, and I don't mean to be condescending by this, as learning that Santa in fact doesn't exists. It only hurts because you believed in it. Someone who never believed in Santa doesn't experience this. With Santa, we usually try to accept as best as we can to accept it and after keeping this on for a while we adapt to a Santaless universe and can cope with this. After a while we don't even miss him any more and start tot see his non-existence just as self-evident as those who never believed.

I think the same can be done with the meaning and values and that kind of stuff. You realised that the belief in it or even deeming it a possibility was erroneous all along and you adapt to it.

The depressing part in existential nihilism lies in the cognitive dissonance that is caused by refusing to accept it. It's like waiting for Santa every year in spite of knowing better. It's thinking that by searching hard enough, you may encounter him after all. Once you do away with this behaviour (just as it takes time to accept the death of a person) you should be able to adapt to a new life without it. The trick is to catch yourself red handed when you are grasping for your phantom of universal meaning and teaching yourself new habits.

>>7304291
It's more like telling someone who lost a loved one that they will get over it eventually as time goes by and telling them to focus on acceptance rather than denial.

>>7303435
who is this semen demon?

>>7304080
You can't know the opposite, either

>>7303435
Philosophies are helpful but in the end they amount to empty platitudes absent an absolute yardstick by which to compare them.

For someone who is a confirmed melancholic, there is only 'the muzzle of the pistol or the foot of the cross'

You need Jesus Christ, his Mother and the sacramental life as can be found in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, AKA the institution that is the true basis of western civilization.

If you want to be motivated, just take whatever pills get prescribed for depression, or--ugh--read all the stupid motivational lit out there. If you want to find meaning, do the above, or else just recognize that we automatically perceive meaning pre-intellectually in things as they relate to us: a delicious meal is delicious. Or read PI or something (maybe the Blue Book first?). :-) Either way.

>>7303716
Death then. You don't like life, in death you'll find peace from everything.

>>7304298
If you accept nihilism totally then surely you accept things like if you were to kill your mother it would be as unimportant as switching on a lamp. The dissonance is in the inherent truth of nihilism and the fact that it is something which can't be changed and which undermines everything we care about.

No one can truly 'accept' nihilism and it's consequences unless they would find acting like a psychopath or meurasult acceptable

>>7304323
Can't be known for sure and the process of killing self is too hard

>>7304307
The GOAT

>>7304324
>If you accept nihilism totally then surely you accept things like if you were to kill your mother it would be as unimportant as switching on a lamp.
Why would you think that?

You can be a nihilist and still like chocolate ice cream over vanilla. You can even feel very strongly about it. Nihilism does not imply that a person no longer has preferences.

I'm very fond of my mother and feel rather indifferent about lamps. This does not mean I attach any moral significance to my preferences though. I realise they are just that.

>>7304367
If you were truly a nihilist you wouldn't have any preferences because a preference implies value. What you've got are meanings and values which you accept because you like them not because of morality. If a person were to embody ie accept nihilism, they'd have no values at all surely

>>7304392
>If you were truly a nihilist you wouldn't have any preferences because a preference implies value.
Depends on your definition. According to your logic a dog has an ideology when he chooses between two bones because by picking one he ascribes value.

If you were to go that way you could say that nihilists simply do not exist, but that's not a very useful way of going about things. People who describe themselves as nihilists do not mean they have no preferences as all. Nihilism rather refers to a meta-position regarding the nature of said preferences as mere preferences and nothing besides.

>>7304392
>preferences imply value
If everything you did was based on a deep, internally consistent philosophy, you would never make it through the grocery store.

>>7304413
I think that's the most accurate definition. A dog does have an ideology like we do the difference is that we can look from a meta position and realise all our preferences are arbitrary and based in delusion of biological and psychological programming. Now this, to my mind is plainly a truth. An omniscient once which colours all we do. So, I agree, to truly be a nihilist is impossible and therefore to accept it in all its depth is impossible. And yet it fundamentally is true.

This is why it is so harrowing and confusing to navigate life with it as an unshakeable awareness in my opinion

>>7304392
Are biological impulses considered a value?

OP, when you finally find Jesus Christ, you will realize that He was all along the only true solution to nihilism and that he was only waiting for you all this time with arms wide open to let down your paradoxical facade of simultaneous depression and pride and accept him into your heart.

>>7304437
If you hang yourself with a belt right now Jesus will accept you with open arms into heaven. What's keeping you?

>>7304436
I'd say so. It's just not sounding it out in words necessarily. It's valuing something which can only be done by assigning meaning and it could be argued that everything humans do is a biological impulse

>>7304431
I think your definition of 'true nihilism' is a straw man which gets in the way of understanding people who identify as nihilists tbh. It's counter-productive and it doesn't really dismiss their actual position.

Meanwhile your own position ("all our preferences are arbitrary and based in delusion") seems quite close closer to the perspective of run of the mill nihilists.

>>7304465
How is it a straw man? It's just the logical end to the nihilistic claim which can no one can enact. If people don't live in line with what the claims of a belief bear out then how can they really claim to believe it. It's just like faux Christians. Not to say that the way you're suggesting it be used is not the more common, I just don't think it makes much sense as to be a human is to have ingrained values, completely contradictory to the notion of nihilism

>>7304496
>How is it a straw man?
Because nihilists are never of the 'I don't have any preferences' persuasion so your idea of nihilism is not what they mean by it. You're attacking a non-existent position by redefining their terms until they fit what you can dismiss.

>It's just the logical end to the nihilistic claim which can no one can enact. If people don't live in line with what the claims of a belief bear out then how can they really claim to believe it. It's just like faux Christians
Which claim would that be, exactly? Nihilism can refer to many different positions.

>Not to say that the way you're suggesting it be used is not the more common, I just don't think it makes much sense as to be a human is to have ingrained values, completely contradictory to the notion of nihilism
What you would call values I would simply call preferences since values imply a more universal applicability to me, but even if one would follow your definition and every preference is an ascribing of value, it still would not dismiss nihilism since nihilism is dependant on your positions regarding those evaluations rather than the evaluations themselves.

Moral/ethical nihilism is a meta-ethical position. It is not inconsistent so say 'I consider murder to be wrong' and 'ethical positions are arbitrary nonsense'.

>>7303435
>How does one overcome nihilism?
Will.

>>7304532
Give me 5-10 clearly different Base definitions of claims what nihilism if it is so variable.

I agreed that my use of the word was less common but I think more accurate as the hypothetical nihilist in my conception would act more in line with the claims of nihilism than 'normal' nihilists do. Though I have to find out all these different conceptions of nihilism that I'm unaware of first perhaps.

And again, if a person were to be totally in accordance to what I think nihilism is then their position regarding those evaluations would be that the evaluations are meaningless and their positions are meaningless.

To take the view of nihilism I think is right and most common I'll copy the first definition that comes on Google which I think is correct.

"Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy."

To my mind you can not have any beliefs on wrong or right with this definition and to change the word ending from an m to a t and claim that it defines a part of your real belief system while next to every moment of your life you act in a way which contradicts it, to me does not add up. Though again I concede that words are just words and how people use it is what they end up meaning

>>7304431
>A dog does have an ideology like we do

>>7304603
>Give me 5-10 clearly different Base definitions of claims what nihilism if it is so variable.
c/p of wiki if you don't mind:

>1.1 Metaphysical nihilism
>1.2 Epistemological nihilism
>1.3 Mereological nihilism
>1.4 Existential nihilism
>1.5 Moral nihilism
>1.6 Political nihilism

I think the definition you posted misrepresents any of the beliefs generally called nihilism and sounds pretty sensationalist. "A radical scepticism that condemns existence" is in itself completely contradictory since a radical scepticism isn't in the position to condemn anything.

>And again, if a person were to be totally in accordance to what I think nihilism is then their position regarding those evaluations would be that the evaluations are meaningless and their positions are meaningless.
Meaninglesness isn't an objection to entertaining any preferences in itself.

>To my mind you can not have any beliefs on wrong or right with this definition and to change the word ending from an m to a t and claim that it defines a part of your real belief system while next to every moment of your life you act in a way which contradicts it, to me does not add up.
You don't need to have any beliefs on a generalised wrong or right though, you can just judge each singular situation on its preferability.

>>7304569
>Will.
Maybe in the nineteenth century, Schopenhauer. Breech loading artillery was a game changer. Have you ever read about PTSD, faggot?

>>7303435
Firstly I hope didn't waste the suffering and used nihilism to see through a lot of bullshit in the world rather than self-pity. Also recognize you were never really a nihilist.

The solution is seeing yourself as the animal you are and returning to that primal consciousness.

That is all.

>>7304638
Those aren't definitions of nihilism they are the various applications of nihilism in different areas of life. It's the equivalent of if I ask you to define swimming and you list me:

Front crawl
Breast stroke
Butterfly
Doggy paddle.

The definition of swimming is moving through water using limbs. Those are just examples.

And as for preferences, how can you prefer anything if everything is meaningless? If all is as equally barren of meaning and intelligibility how does anything get preferred? What is preference other than a sort of judgement and therefore evaluation and therefore valuing and therefore not viewed as meaningless

>>7303493
YOLO defines the nihilist

>>7304671

Not him, but you're asking the question, "how do you swim?" The answer is to teach you a swimming stroke.

The way to beat nihilism, btw, is to read Wittgenstein.

>>7304703
>/lit/ now has an equivalent to baneposting

Pretty haram tbh

>>7304721
I'm dead serious about Wittgenstein. The Investigations followed by his works on ethics and epistemology totally freed me from my nihilism. Reading him totally transformed the way I approach subjects. You have to actually read him, though, which isn't a huge task given that the investigations is only a few hundred pages and very clear.

Chinese cartoons.
You overcome the NEET lifestyle. Then, you start studying some hard career that will pay well (not Literature of course, that's for braindead morons who love poverty) just to get anime figures, and to pay for the WiFi needed to fap to 2D girls.

>>7304731
I'm intrigued by this suggestion. He has a reputation for being very dense, is it deserved?

>>7304731
I doubt I'd understand it tbh.

Wasn't he up in arms because he felt everyone even high scholars had misinterpreted him?

>>7304731
Do you go to graveyards often?

Is there an online version of The Investigations? I'm really interested now.

>>7304738
Try the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus. Hardest shit I have ever read in my life. It's even more formidable if you put into the equation the fact that Wittgenstein wrote it while being a POW, during WW1. By the way, Don Quixote was also written after Cervantes became a POW to the Turk scum.

>>7304731
What do you need to read before Wittgenstein?

>>7304634
this is my favorite picture on all the internets

>>7304738
His first book is totally impenetrable to me. I understood the Investigations perfectly after two readings, and had a dim notion after one. And by "understand" I mean that I went looking into secondary material and more or less had an inkling of everything already except Kripke's theories.

>>7304743
Read it again. Monk's biography is also very good.

>>7304749
I like graveyards.

You can get it on bookzz.

>>7304761
Read Monk's biography of him then the Investigations twice. Something like a general history of philosophy would be good too, if you don't have a vague notion of that kind of thing already. Anthony Kenny's is good.

>>7304761
You just need some basic notions of Logic.

>>7304778
So what exactly are at least some of the revelations that reading it gave you if you are not memeing.

Inb4 lol wordz can't explain fam

>>7304779
>>7304778
Thanks

>>7304754

confirmed.

but i didn't really try maybe i will again i'm scared of realizing I lack the required iq points to make sense of it

>>7304790
Just a bunch of bullshit about words and meaning that continentals already get.

>>7303547
It's an intersting tendency of ours to so badly want to have arrived at this endpoint already. I'm not sure what it comes from.

>>7303435
Faith

>>7304703
>>7304731
lmfao are you the grad student studying wittgenstein?

>>7304790
>asking someone to give you a Sparknotes summary of one of the most intellectually rich and important philosophical texts of all time

kek

>>7304805

>>7304805
You're the one claiming it cured nihilism. I didn't ask for a summary but surely if you have an understanding of it and aren't just a memeing bait lord you can give some small insight into how it managed such an amazing feat

>>7304808
dumb frogposter

>>7304814
Different guy.

>>7304790

My pointing you to the proper formulation of a complex argument isn't a failure on my part. Some arguments can't be reduced to 50 - 100 words and still be intelligible to people who don't already understand them. You're asking me to explain algebra to somebody who hasn't done sums.

That said, I will tell you what I can: I came to see that nihilism was basically the use of moves from one language game inside of another one. In a deep way, it is nonsensical. I also came to see the language games of ethics, at least outside of the sterile, formalized language of philosophy, had inherent substance because it was as understandable as it is.

>>7304817
basically shitposting tbh fam just like you

>>7304818
I bet if someone said Hegel was good, you'd demand they summarize him and mock them if they couldn't.

>>7303534
>I have to convince myself it's worth doing
Nothing simply manifests itself as worth doing? I love philosophy and literature. If someone told me they were worthless I'd tell them to fuck themselves cuz I love phil and lit. Passionately.

>>7304671
>Those aren't definitions of nihilism they are the various applications of nihilism in different areas of life.
Nihilism as a phrase in itself means nothing since it is always a negation of one thing or the other. Without mentioning an application it's meaningless (hhhehe)

>And as for preferences, how can you prefer anything if everything is meaningless? If all is as equally barren of meaning and intelligibility how does anything get preferred? What is preference other than a sort of judgement and therefore evaluation and therefore valuing and therefore not viewed as meaningless
Why do you assume that one must accept the premise that meaning is mandatory for preference to be established? Why do you assume that preference stems from rational elaboration?

>>7304825

If you want to be freed from nihilism, you can try reading Wittgenstein and see if it worked for you like it did for me, which was totally. If not, you can enjoy shitposting bitterly on lit about philosophers you refuse to make an attempt at understanding.

>>7304736
fuk yeah

>>7304833
M8 I'm not worried about nihilism, I'm cringing at your absurd views on Wittgenstein

>>7304865
How am I misinterpreting Wittgenstein? I am willing to sincerely listen.

>>7304886
>absurd means badly interpreted

I thought you would be better at this.

No, Wittgenstein won't clear nihilism, and his philosophy doesn't render it incoherent. Maybe in six months you'll get off this high and be normal but right now, you should keep your mouth closed and stop spamming him every day

>>7304899

Wittgenstein speaks disdainfully of the encroachment of science upon ethics and religion according to Monk's biography. That's what I'm getting at when I say it's moves from one game being used on another. A lot of nihilistic argumentation is the application of the standards of science being applied to ethics, and the everyday language of right and wrong being translated into neurological and evolutionary terms, making them seem reduced.

This is literally the only time I've brought up Wittgenstein. I was turned onto him over a year ago after reading about him here. Maybe it's somebody else?

What arguments do you think prove nihilism?

>>7304899
"Absurd" means "ridiculous" which almost definitely connotes you believing him to have an incorrect interpretation, so your criticism on his comprehension is absurd.

As for Witty's importance (>>7304790 here's that Sparknotes guide you wanted, troll): he outlines that there is no such thing as private language, that thought is limited to words, that reason is a null concept because language-games work within a social and biological hierarchy, that all philosophical problems derive from a misattribution of context given inany systematic grouping of thought (aka language-games), and a shit ton more....

Not to mention that it isn't Wittgenstein who is clearing your nihilism, but you yourself, because his purpose is only to GUIDE the fly out of the fly bottle, not to force it out, faggot.

>>7304930
Kill yourself

>>7304945
lol

>>7304945
You're an idiot.

>>7304952
See
>>7304952
and crucially
>>7304945

>>7304971
See
>>7304952
and crucially
>>7304945

>>7303547
dude that was p cool thanks

>>7303672
>If you attribute the wrong thought to the wrong language-game

p cool thanks

>>7303825
>>7303838
I'm not sure if he's actually talking about Nihilism but the idea of not expecting much only to be surprised at the what's around you is a nice way to live, in my experience. I haven't always been able to stay in that frame of mind but when I'm able to walk around in relative safety in my metropolitan area with museums and preserved natural areas within a few minutes of me and enjoy peoples' curated flowerbeds and the trees around me and the sunset and all these essentially mundane events but with palpable euphoria because I just enjoy the sensation of being alive - that shit's dope.

>>7304985
I've tried to appreciate things like that but I just can't, I don't care and I can't force myself into appreciating it. I agree that'd be a better approach though

Society may not ever overcome nihilism, OP. You literally must make your own reason to continue to exist.

>>7304053
This is not a way to live as it makes it hard to afford the very things you base your existence on
and after a while it becomes abundantly clear you're substituting a perceived lack of external sources of value onto drugs, and therefore money, and therefore toward existence pursuing money
also it's super hard to avoid heroin after a while

>>7304999
I'm the one you responded to. I will not make illusions. I am sometimes incredibly depressed and have pretty rampant intrusive thoughts and sometimes become so absorbed on absolute nonsensical internal debates about the nature of cause and effect and free will and determinism that I feel quite alone.

This is all after multiple periods of my life where i was overtly life affirming - striking up conversations with strangers, social, living the life, the whole deal.

I regularly attend classical music and jazz concerts and frequent museums. I frequently read interesting literature and non-fiction. I also spend a lot of time snooping around 4chan and looking at extremely freaky porn. I figure these different events all work in tandem. I can feel nearly dead inside but still strike up a conversation with a cashier. I literally force myself (questions of free will aside) to do things that I know are "good" for me, even if I'm uncomfortable.

I don't know where I'm going with this, I'm just trying to tell you it doesn't have to be perfect and that if you just keep surviving one more day at a time circumstances can change and your thoughts my find themselves arranging in different ways.

I've found as I get involved with more "normal" people things, a lot of my determinism business I forget about, at least temporarily. If I read Plato and Hume, it at least blocks out whatever negative business might have gone on in the mean time.

I'm also okay with being uncomfortable. I'm okay with my intrusive thoughts which if I uttered the subject matter of would make most people disown me. I'm okay with the fact that often times if I let my guard down I can get a high light reel of all my most embarrassing events, that the other people involved probably hardly remember.

Again, tl:dr.

As long as you're living you're winning. Find a different job, ask a girl out, whatever, get your heart rate up, something.

>>7305057
I appreciate the earnest comment, I really do but I'm just too filled with impotent rage to take your advice in any meaningful sense.

Imagine yourself when you were very angry and try to imagine in that state appreciating anything at all. This is what I am like and have always been like. There was something by Jung about how when you see life through a complex the characteristics of that complex is all you see in others. This what I am like and it's so a part of me that to be a different way is like to ask for a change of skin colour.

I'm afraid I've reinforced angry habits of only taking pleasure in cawing over the misfortunes of others and tearing people down that I'm just at the core a deeply repugnant human and to impose that on others in any long term exposure would be very harsh. So being alone all the time and doing little I think is my best and only recourse. But, thanks anon, sincerely

>>7305098
Go to a therapist

>>7305123
I have. Did nothing

>>7305136
agreed. therapists do nothing if you're smarter than an average american office drone.

Are you on drugs? You should be on drugs. Find a doctor who will give you drugs.

>>7303435
>Nothing I do matter, making an effort is hard and does not matter and the reasons for doing so are unclear, I'll do little.

Your actions lack intrinsic value or eternal meaning, but it is not as if they don't have subjective importance. You should get over your excessive desire for eternal things.

>>7305149
Nah, I'm going to kill myself in a year or so anyway

>>7305136
Not surprising. A good wickedly smart therapist who throws himself wholly into a few patients would be amazing, but the way it's mostly done now doesn't work for a certain kind of person.

>>7305158
Honestly, how old are you?

And at this point, if you're really this far off, have you ever tried LSD or psychedelic mushrooms, or do you smoke weed?

I don't really want to promote it, I now abstain from all specifically mood altering drugs besides caffeine, but in certain really bad spots, it might spark some life back into you (I would feel irresponsible if I didn't mention it can also be hellish, but if you're sincere about your full on anger and non-appreciation of things, it might still be worth it)

>>7305161
I didn't mean the "honestly" part as condescending, I was just legitimately curious.

Certain things you're writing remind me of previous (and current, honestly) thought patterns I've gone through, although most people who know me don't even realize.

If you've been the same guy responding, and you said you wanted a "reason" but might not be able to understand more complex writers, that might be a tall order for a simple post to be actually truly satisfying after looking at the issue from all sides

I would agree that the fact you've even asked us weirdos over here on 4chan as a positive sign. I've asked /lit/ about my deterministic struggles (p fucking hilarious to write that out, all things considered).

I dunno man, but know that out there, most of the people in this thread love you, because they wouldn't respond if they didn't.

>>7305161
>>7305057
>>7304985
these are all me

>>7303672
>witty

God I despise you fucking faggots

There is no w sound in his name.

vit gun shtine

Get it fucking right benders.

>>7303506
That's not what death drive means

>>7304062
I don't see how the existence of things outside the mind help with nihilism

Solipsism, yes. But nihilism? Yeah, great, things exist outside the self. There is still no thing outside the self that tells us what should and should not be done, or what the meaning is. In fact, if OP believed there was nothing but the mind he would have already found meaning. Nihilism comes from the frustration that the world outside the self is like. Uncaring, chaotic, meaningless.

>>7305538
you're probably right

>>7305166
You're too good for 4chan

>>7303435
Familiarise yourself properly with philosophy of language. Then familiarise yourself with the problem of identity. Then familiarise yourself with epistemology. Then rationalism and their main problems.
There is a way out, anon, but you need to understand it for yourself.

>>7303716
That's not nihilism, it's just depression.

>>7303725
if it was to save and for honor, totally fine
also in the same spot as anon u responded to

>>7305870
Ugh, that's how I got into nihilism

Nihilism only exists in unhealthy minds so there's no reason to take it seriously. It's just a bunch of people trying to intellectualize their sickness.

>>7306017
seems like a logical world view to me, not an enjoyable one mind you

I won't read the thread so perhaps I'm just repeating what some other anon said.

The crucial point here is in here:
>I need reasons
>actual reasons
And because of that, it is not nihilism. That is to say, you need an excuse, a reason, a justification, a way to defend or to sustain a certain course of action for you to take. When you look further into it, however, you're met with the very death of your action. It's like saying why eat if you're going to poop it and spend all that energy anyway. However, in spite of that, you are still searching for that very thing, a reason, an "actual reason", some way to refute your sensation of meaninglessness.

I think that the first thing you could do is dismantle this notion that you need a reason or an excuse to do what you desire. It's as if that was not valid by itself, it's as if it needs this support, this justification in the thing itself. That you'd do something because it is the right thing to do, or the reasonable thing to do, that it is the best course of action for this and that, that you can argue in favour of it instead of others and so on. This is all poisonous. Everytime you put things in perspective and dissolve those reasons, you dissolve your desire to do so as well. Of course you were going to end up doing nothing at all, or very little as you say. And still, even after all this, you're still looking for something outside of yourself to show you that something ought to be done. Let's break those clutches right away, there is nothing that you ought to be done, no reason or justification. And there you are confronted with an enormous responsibility from which you are running from, the responsibility of admitting that you have desire and passions that are your own, and that this is why you act. Perhaps today you're ashamed or afraid to admit those things, perhaps something or someone (likely you) made you think this is not enough, asked for those answers, inquired your desire and brought it down as if it was not legitimate.

There are no reasons, you can stop looking for them and finally enter nihilism for real. And now you are naked and you know that the problem is not in the lack of reason, but how you handle your desire and your courage to act in spite of reasons. Not because or against them, but in spite of them.

>>7306160
does the nihilist still not want reasons?

>>7306160
Nihilists can wish things were another way but know they aren't and still be nihlists

>>7305166
you're a good guy

>>7303435
Choose your own reasons.

No intrinsic value can ever be proved or disproved. All there is is for you to decide what things you care about and pursue them.

If that means NEETlyfe, have fun with that I guess.

You can't be a nihilist without tracing the reasoning behind all of your actions backwards until you hit "there is no reason". Just assuming it's there and skipping the middle man is not an option.

>>7305136

Did you go three or four times and refuse to actually practice over time what the therapist told you to do? Do you refuse to go on any sort of drug?

I always hear this "lel therapy is shit" from people who refuse to actually do the therapy.

>>7305970 is right. You're not a nihilist, your emotional reflexes are just broken. You're not asking for reasons, you're asking for somebody to basically insert motivation into you using language. Nobody can really do that. You have to either change the way you live or ingest something that changes your chemistry.


Btw I was massively depressed like you from 17 - 23 and I've been ok for about four years now, decent job, gf, etc. I literally just listened to my therapist and took drugs for a year while I got all my shit together.

>>7306174
>does the nihilist still not want reasons?
No, that's an idealist.

Whether people will always want reasons or not is another question, for you could doubt being a nihilist is really possible to its fullest. Regardless, nihilism is not a comfortable place to be, for it really means to understand that the support provided by reasons is ultimately empty (the support, not the reasons).

A nihilist will hate his position and wish he had not understood this lack of intrinsic support to things. People will want reasons only insofar as they don't want to stay at this nihilist place, they don't want to know, they want the comfortable sensation of following orders from this and that reason. This is the place of OP now. And what could take him out of that place more easily than an aesthetic rhetoric capable enough to convince him of an ideal, that is, to hide from himself its emptiness. To say this and that religion holds the truth, or that if you don't have that, at least you have "mankind" or "science" or any other reason in which he could nest himself.

Instead of giving him any of those reasons to live and that are all empty in themselves, one can focus not in the "reasons" but in the "want". Because to want reasons is nevertheless to want. It has always been about that and it is only because we are too weak to assume it and to live it as it is. To want reasons functions in the following way: you want an authority to exist and to demand from you that you do the thing which you already want to do, because you cannot just do what you want to do and bear the responsibility of admitting it.

>>7306278
Surely nihilists wish for things like every other people, I didn't argue over that. The difference lies in their understanding of this wish and of the world around them.

>>7305166
i dont know

im normally lurk and never respond and maybe its the shroom but you seem like a genuine nice guy just wanted to let you know. you make me feel really comfy right now

>>7306538
though this is close, it's not about being unable to bear responsibility that is tje most difficult part, it is the acting in the face of extreme ambiguity with any confidence that it'll be acceptable to a 'true' self. To feel competent in what you do you need a degree of certainty which is totally lacking when undermined by nihilistic views even if you are just to 'go with your meanings'