/lit/ - Literature

I didn't care for it. Gets pretty boring, explaining shit that really shouldn't need explaining. I got about 3/4 of the way through and put it down.

Did you buy a fedora, too?

>>7298298
No but I found one on the side of the road the other day. Should I go back and get it?

>>7298266
It was popular in colleges and amongst liberal media types in the early 2000s. Since then, environmental determinism has seen something of a decline in popularity amidst accusations of racism from the left, his scholarship is widely questioned in academic circles, and he was btfo by a book called "Why States Fail" which is basically a summary of 13 years of research by two MIT neckbeards. I wouldnt imagine many college professors assign this anymore, although my Human Geography professor at a state university did in 2002

>thurd worl was a gud boy he dindu nuffin: the book

>>7298313
I have read anecdotes from many anons in colleges today where professors have derided them, or rolled their eyes when it was suggested that this book is relevant anymore. I have no idea why this thread is posted once every two weeks.

>>7298266
It's bullshit. Read the great divergence instead.
Google it and add Pdf after it.

>>7298321
it is b8 and a shitposting magnet

>>7298266
It makes for good fire material/toilet paper.

>>7298313
As a Marxist myself, I really can't understand why academic leftists would think this was racist. Isn't the whole point basically to refute the biological argument for differing development levels of civilizations?

>>7298334
http://io9.com/is-jared-diamond-racist-1463088988

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10455752.2013.846490?journalCode=rcns20#.VjJIOberTcd

Some amusing reading.

>Everything Diamond does is motivated by an environmental determinism that takes the physical environment, including the climate, to be a determinant on human society. Diamond and his partners in crime, such as Jeffrey Sachs, argue that we can look to patterns of environmental change or geographical difference as a way to understand trajectories of human and social development and, by so doing, explain why some societies flourish while others languish in poverty or even collapse.

>Diamond won a Pulitzer Prize because he made this ridiculous, racist argument sound like common sense. His books do not merely sanitize a history of colonial violence; they are its disinfectant. They offer compelling and seemingly intuitive arguments that serve as the "ideology of an imperial capitalism," as geographer Dick Peet called it.

>>7298355

amusing in the sense that the critic doesn't seem to know what racism is?

>>7298361
Im a simple man, a scholarly article called "Fuck Jared Diamond" makes me laugh.

And I agree with you btw, but it is this shit that has caused his star to fall.

>>7298361

Its funny because you have an ideologue trying to argue that someone's researched opinion is ideology.

>>7298312
it's destiny tbh

Jared is racist because he didn't just say the simple truth that everything wrong with africa is the white man's fault. Bringing in nuance is insufferable. It is racist against malaria, guinea worms, the tsetse fly and all sorts of other problems to say that they make civilisation difficult rather than making africa the garden of eden it clearly is. Reading the book and thinking the ideas are interesting is proof of your own racism too.

>>7298416
Or if we were going to be diplomatic, he didnt follow post-structuralist thought-lines regarding oppression. Why States Fail does, its premise is on inclusive and exclusive societies, or how the elites fit the proletariat into society and its historical impact.

Example being Spanish tendencies towards overbearing autocracy in S. America vs English policies of self rule and egalitarianism in N. America.

I am not a Marxist and I like the argument, but it is also much more palatable to people like >>7298355 this guy

Marvin Harris is like diamond but smart
and his cultural materialism is fun to read about tbh

Is there any grand history book which looks at history through the lens of biological determinism? I'd be interested.

>>7298266

So you want us offer 2 cents for your 50 cents?

>>7298313
Yep, my professor assigned it as well, back in 2004.

>>7298266
No

>>7298334
It doesn't refute the biological argument at all if you know a single thing about selective pressures. Having the opportunity to exploit a resource often creates a pressure to exploit that resource more effectively, and there's a solid case to be made that what Diamond's actually describing are the pressures that caused Europeans and Asians to become superior to Africans and others.

>>7298495
Except Diamond explicitly takes the position that all men are equal in capabilities

But what you're saying is absolutely right. Differing environmental pressure is what caused races to differentiate in the first place

>>7298501
Well yeah, Diamond obviously doesn't provide that interpretation himself. Makes me wonder if he didn't consider the possibility he was explaining exactly what racists have said for centuries until he was halfway through the book and just finished it anyway for the audience pussy.

>>7298505
He probably considered it, and then dismissed it out of pure ideology.

Keep in mind he's a jew

>>7298505
>>7298501
Yeah except men aren't equal in capabilities so kek's on him.

>>7298495

He didn't argue that Europeans and Asians are/were superior races in the slightest. For example, the Europeans were able to tear away the Americas from its original inhabitants because they carried ALL the diseases (what with their long and fruitful history of sleeping in pig sties). That's hardly what I'd call "superior" in any commonly accepted definition of the word.

The Europeans were simply more dirty, aggressive and populous than everyone else. Like an bothersome, highly-resistant virus.

>>7298517
Holly hell you're dumb. There is no objective scale of human superiority, but the book is about conquest and who's got the juice to conquer who, and he makes no bones about the fact that Europe had more efficient war technology and immunity to those diseases, which looks an awful lot like superiority when you're dying of smallpox and get beheaded by a steel cutlass.

The whole point of that post is that Diamond's argument implies more racism than it refutes, not that he's a racist.

>>7298517
Lol, someone's mad.

>>7298529

>The whole point of that post is that Diamond's argument implies more racism than it refutes, not that he's a racist

wut


>Holly hell

Leave evergreens out of this.

>>7298531

I wasn't until I saw "Lol" just now
.

>>7298517
>>7298529
To clarify, what I was saying is that the classical racist assertion is that there are distinct biological differences between races in areas of intelligence and sociability.

Such differences would only arise in nature from differences in environment, with more intelligence arising where it provides a sufficient advantage.

Diamond describes differences in habitat where the European one obviously rewards intelligence more (need to conserve, opportunities for trade, agricultural and war tech being more critical) but then dogmatically refuses to consider that these environments could lead to the same biological adaptations he's trying to refute.

Diamond just tells the same story as every racist ever but says that since he told it and he's not a racist the racists must have it wrong.

>>7298517
You are sort of a butthurt faggot, but your post reminds me of my favorite part of 1491.

In 1605-10 when Weymouth and Smith sailed along the coast of New England, and basically saw nothing but indians engaged in commerce: fishing, farming the shore, looking on from hunting packs. They estimated hundreds of thousands.

When the Pilgrims arrived in 1620 the entire coastline was empty. Epidemiologists think it was an airborne pandemic level outbreak of Hepititis A.

>>7298545
>I wasn't until I saw "Lol" just now
:)

>>7298334
>As a Marxist myself
Grow up.

>>7298563

>favourite part of historical account is when hundreds of thousands of people are killed by horrible disease

What the fuck is wrong with you?

>>7298575
It's called progress tbh

Native Americans would've been wiped out thousands of years ago had it not been for their geographic separation.

>>7298575
Fatigue
Nausea and vomiting
Abdominal pain or discomfort, especially in the area of your liver on your right side beneath your lower ribs
Clay-colored bowel movements
Loss of appetite
Low-grade fever
Dark urine
Joint pain
Yellowing of the skin and eyes (jaundice)

imagine how much shit and piss was everywhere if everyone died of diarrhea. And it was probably millions. Just so much poop.

>>7298580

>it's good when vast numbers of people die

Logic or rationality didn't bring you to this place, being a sick loser did. You literally make me want to spew.

>>7298599

>>7298580
If there hadn't been a geographic separation there would have been commerce of tools and diseases. They wouldn't have been so easily wiped out by illness and they would have been developing technology that could have made them similar to the europeans in capabilities.

The central asians with their horse powered warriors and bubonic plague almost conquered the europeans in the exact same way. It's probably racist to mention it though.

>>7298599
>Logic or rationality didn't bring you to this place
What, you mean 4chins? The first board I browsed was /v/.

>being a sick loser did.
Oh no, he called me a loser.

>You literally make me want to spew.
Then go ahead by all means.

Look, european colonized north america has produced far more in 400 years than what native americans produced in all of their history.
Do you also weep for homo erectus and homo australopithecus?

>>7298612
Pretty sure nobody gets butthurt about Mongols these days fam.

>>7298612
>If there hadn't been a geographic separation there would have been commerce of tools and diseases
More like they would've gotten wiped out long time back like the original hunter gatherers of europe.

>hey wouldn't have been so easily wiped out by illness
They wouldn't have existed in the first place.

>The central asians with their horse powered warriors and bubonic plague almost conquered the europeans in the exact same way
They were as affected by the plague as the europeans. They almost conquered Europe only due to their superior military skills.

> It's probably racist to mention it though.
It's not racist when it's against white people, fam.

>>7298611
Why is /pol/ so dumb?

>>7298628

Bad genes?

>>7298318
You are retarded, read the book

>>7298616
>first board I browsed was /v/
Explains a lot.

>>7298628
Why are libtards such emotional babies?

>>7298634
That was a long time ago, though...

>>7298554
Well, he refers it to culture. Which makes sense.

>>7298495
Tbh fam if you mean culturally superior then that's fair enough. No person who takes their own opinions seriously could reach the conclusion that all cultures could possibly be equal, other than in the most abstract, postmodern, 'but do we need painkillers? after all what's the REAL, telic point of not feeling the maximum possible agony when you're dying from a would-be curable disease? :DDD' sense.

>>7298589
DESIGNATED

>>7298705

SHITTING

>>7298355
This is funny because it's so fulminating but I'm not really sure the guy has an actual point. Geographical determinism could potentially be wielded in a racist way, so what? It could also potentially be wielded in an anti-racist way, and most of Diamond's work seems to be the latter. In any case, it's not an argument against geographical determinism, the broadest strokes of which seem to be probably true.

>>7298266
I thought it was better than its reputation but hardly revelatory. Some of the stuff toward the back of the book about the spread of languages in and around Indonesia is pretty interesting.

>>7298727
PLAGUE

Read it anon and form your own opinion

its worth the read imho tbh fam

>50 cents
You got ripped off, friend.

>>7298266
What's with all the relativist cucks? Isn't it obvious that technology is advancing to a point where none of our previous sociological theories will apply? As well, how can people even say that every society is equal?

I liked it. Whether or not you agree with the thesis, the book provides plenty of big-picture insight into the history of man. In fact, I've just started reading Braudel's Civilization and Capitalism, because these things fascinate me.

>>7298554
>To clarify, what I was saying is that the classical racist assertion is that there are distinct biological differences between races in areas of intelligence and sociability.

Does there exist *ANY* strong argument against racial differences in intelligence?

>>7300100
Not really, but asserting that this claim is true or not would be beside the point I was making.

>>7298473


Understanding human history
The 10,000 year explosion
History and biology (oliver)
Evolution in four dimensions

the point of the book is prove that white people are not globally dominant because they are genetically superior, a belief that no no one who is taken seriously takes seriously.

>>7298266
Diamond's a professor at my uni. To get into his geography class, you need to submit an essay on why you're interested in his class and teaching, and what you plan on doing with your education.

Other professors can't downtalk his book in case it gets back to him but some subtly reference how environmental determinism isn't a thing...
Especially our kickass anthro department

>>7298266
>is it any good?

yep. really good, 4chan and reddit approved.

>>7300560
>The 10,000 year explosion

this is good, but it is not 4chan or tumblr approved. plz, think of the diversity

My high school history teacher shaped his curriculum to fit what Guns, Germs, and Steel pushes. On exams the correct answer to "why did this place fail? Why did they starve? Why were they oppressed?" was always "because of their geographic location".

>>7300608
>if they don't preach it from the rooftops and write thinkpieces in the New Yorker about racial superiority they don't believe in it
LMAO
M
A
O

South America, India, Africa will be the last countries to finally dig their heads out of their asses in that order regardless of what the meme book says africans and indians literally have their head so far up their ooga booga asses they'd never reach the heights europeans did. I mean caste system still running in TWO THOUSAND N FITEEN? Give me a break. Fucking hate 3rd world shit countreis.

>>7300685
He sounds like a pretentious twat.

>>7298490
My nigga. Was assigned it in a modern philosophy class, 2003 or 2004. Also read The Selfish Gene. All the Bio majors had their noses buried deep into Dawkins's crack when we discussed it.

Why is racism seen as an inherently negative thing if it could possibly be true in some aspects?

>>7300718
Nice blog friendo. I upvoted and subscribed. Can't wait for more! :D

>>7300718
>TWO THOUSAND N FITEEN
I know right? C'MON!!!

>>7300717
are you telling me racial supremacy is a popular opinion among the intellectual and academic elite?

>>7300745
The intellectual and academic elite are mostly Jewish, so yes.

>>7300745
to a layman like you pseudo-intellectuals form the intellectual and academic elite. people like me do believe in racial supremacy however and that's based on evolutionary facts

>>7300745
among anybody who is not a cuck

>>7300759
please redpill me anon

>>7300718
cool it's like social/cultural change is something that a state has no control over
This "just change the culture, dude" meme has to end

>>7300759
For example: Africans have more children who have children than Europeans. This makes them superior from an evolutionary perspective, as their genes should predominate in time, short ecological changes.

>>7300767
How about you read the fucking thread

>>7298554

>>7298554
You're a fucking idiot cuck. Niggers have smaller brains on average than whites, and lower iq scores within the same income bracket. Two very closely related, but not identical species

>>7298266
Grad school /his/torian here. GG&S is "pop" history of (obvious) leftist slant. It is not taken seriously at all in academic circles, even by leftists.

>>7300794
Lying on the internet?

>>7300793
You dumbass, that post is explaining exactly why those differences arose. Learn to read and stop yelling at people who agree with you.

Just because it used the term, "racist," doesn't mean it's calling that a bad thing or incorrect.

>>7300794
Then why would you say Africa failed to develop on any level near that of the Near Eastern or European civilizations.

>>7300807
>expecting /pol/ to read
>expecting them to accept any post that doesn't just deride everyone they disagree with

>>7300816
Sup Reddit

>>7300824
Is this supposed to be an insult or are you saving "cuck" for later?

>>7300829
Cuck what? You want me to cuck you?

Civilization developed around the Mediterranean, with Sumerians and later Egyptians being more-or-less on the forefront. By way of Alexander, the Greeks would come to be dominate, until crushed by the Romans, whose empire whittled as they stopped being able to stand against the various barbarian tribes from whom most modern Europe springs.

The Middle East and China came to be on the forefront of progress, but were crushed by the Mongols, who mostly left Europe alone for being so poor, allowing for the European renaissance, which has taken us to today.

Where we'll be next? Who knows.

>>7300843
Fall of West. Rise of Persia and China.

>>7298424
>Why States Fail

Can't find any information about this book - do you mean Why Nations Fail?

>>7300725


Generally speaking, areas of thought that have great deals of controversy are not controversial necessarily out of any real confusion (though being a confused intellect certainly helps in believing your own bullshit), but because because people have 'skin in the game'.

That is to say, its a question of ego and validation. People will naturally try to resist any inculcations that they are not what they are cracked up to be, and hence will throw their how heart and soul into frustrating any theories or sentiments that could imply that, against all reason.

In this, they find natural allies of persons with deep feelings of insecurity, who bristle at the phenomena of judgment whatsoever, and who then constitute much of the grist for the mill of such 'controversy'.

How many books do we have to write to convince ourselves that biology isn't a factor in explaining the racial differences in achievement? Entire academic fields exist in order to perpetuate this idea.

So if whites are more intellectually predisposed than whites, are blacks more physically predisposed than whites? People seem to have no problem with agreeing with the latter statement anyway (read : hypocritical cucks)

>>7300948
Whites more intellectually predisposed than blacks*

>>7300948
Literally nobody believes that those two races are equivalent in average intelligence. Some people just think it's a really noble lie.

>>7300957
>Literally nobody believes that those two races are equivalent in average intelligence.
kek. I wish this were the case

>>7300957
Ok, but im asking if, by that logic, are blacks more athletically inclined. People make this argument a lot, saying that blacks had to hunt more and do more physical activity in general

>>7300969
It's possible, and in some respects it appears to be true.

>>7300971
The thing is, blacks seem to have an obvious predisposition towards sprinting, hence why the Olympic 100m is literally all black men. But when it comes to strength, the men who can lift the most weight are always white

The big irony, is most the English-speaking folks posting here had ancestors who were running around naked in the summer, and banging rocks together, while the great civilizations were doing what they do. Now, of course, the barbarians want to appropriate the history of their betters. So it should be, I suppose.

>>7300980
>WE WUZ KINGZ AND SHIEET

>>7300980
How is that ironic in the slightest?

>2015
>reading nigs, cucks and feel

>>7300996
The idea that e.g. Germanic people would claim superiority based on what the Greeks did, is kinda clearly ironic. You can read what Caesar wrote about the Germans, if you want.

>>7300780
>it's not my job to educate you, shitlord

>>7301028
>You can read what Caesar wrote about the Germans, if you want.

>what is propaganda

>>7301029
>twice

>>7301038
And yet, Caesar was remarkably understanding about, and even defended their condition. Not to mention archaeological evidence backs him up.

>>7301045
1. Caesar didn't write anything about Germans, gauls were celtic

2. Almost everything that WAS written about Germans from the Roman pov was negative, depicting them as complete savages due to the Germans bordering them and occasionally raiding

>>7301057
Are you serious? Caesar explicitly talks about the Germans in Gaelic Wars. Here's an entirely random quote:

>Of all these, the Belgae are the bravest, because they are furthest from the civilization and refinement of [our] Province, and merchants least frequently resort to them, and import those things which tend to effeminate the mind; and they are the nearest to the Germans, who dwell beyond the Rhine, with whom they are continually waging war; for which reason the Helvetii also surpass the rest of the Gauls in valor, as they contend with the Germans in almost daily battles, when they either repel them from their own territories, or themselves wage war on their frontiers.

>>7301072
You know that the general consensus among scholars now is that de bello gallico wasn't written by caesar, but by one of his assistants

>>7301078
I haven't heard anything of the sort, but would it matter for the point at hand?

>>7301084
The romans used any opportunity they could to show how superior they were to other people

>>7301089
Gaelic Wars talks about Roman soldiers being afraid of the Germans, because the Germans eschewed e.g. agriculture to become so manly and good at war. Not to mention, the archaeological evidence. You know, science and stuff.

>>7301095
>Not to mention, the archaeological evidence. You know, science and stuff.

:^)

Lol @ misinterpretations ITT.
Diamond was writing about "the broadest pattern of history", i.e. over the last 15,000 years.
In that context, it is not at all "environmental determinism" to point out why people who lived on a large continent with many fertile regions and a huge selection of plants and animals (Eurasia) developed complex technology earlier than people who lived on a small flat mostly-desert continent (Australia), and stuff like that.
It's just common sense.

Diamond did point out that some civilizations could and did basically screw themselves by intentionally remaining stagnant, or even going backwards.

>>7301124
It's pretty fascinating to see how the book comes under fire from the right for being too left and from the left for not being left enough.

Well, it's the same with most things reasonable and left nowadays.

>>7301143
If you'd read the thread you'd see it coming under fire from people on the right and left >>7301124
for presenting evidence for biological racism and then ignoring the implications, but whatever.

>>7301078
You're confused, it was only specific sections that were written by others.

>>7298636
>muh creationism
>muh warming denial
>muh life at conception
>muh degeneracy
>muh patriotism
>muh cold dead hands
>muh troops

My god, it's almost as is everyone is emotional! But I spent all my time on 4chan convincing myself what a coldly logical thinker I am, whatever shall I do? ;_;

You get what you pay for, OP

you overpaid though

>>7298322
oooooh i love divergent! allegiant was crappy tho! i wish i was in the dauntless!

>>7301207
not every conservative is of your retarded american variety

>>7301324

Right, some are even worse.

Why are folks defending ancient Germanic people anyways? Seems pretty strange, unless they honestly accept... oh, okay.

>>7301345
>>/plebbit/

>>7300803
>Lying on the internet?
>GG&S
>Lying in a published work

>>7300810
I don't know, Africa's not my focus. I also haven't read GG&S in a good amount of few years. I do remember finding it laughable myself. Then when I started undergrad I realized that most academic historians absolutely loathe GG&S and every other form of politically- or profit-motivated pop history.

Look, I'm not claiming to be an expert on the book. Just giving my two cents. GG&S should be seen as entertainment. If you want "real" history books they'll say "Published by University of X Press" on the spine and you won't be able to by them at B&N.

>>7298266
As somebody who studies microbiology I can tell you at least a third of it is bullcrap

>>7298266

It's really frustrating how the book is blasted by leftists who wish to crucify their own white flesh because of ideology.

Even if GG&S is bunk, it's a much more useless narrative than "white people are the devil."

Stop whipping yourselves across the back for your sinful flesh like those 14th century monks and nuns and actually help the people you feel guilty for wronging. Fucking useless far left ideology.

>>7301879
I think I'd rather keep whipping myself

Sweden
Yes

>>7301357
What was wrong with ancient Germanics you bigot?

>>7300560
Thanks fam.

Already read 10000 year explosion, gonna check the others out

>>7298365
>and so we must, with humility (and sometimes bombs), cultivate that exceptionalism.

>>7301207
>>muh creationism
The funny thing is that the biggest creationists are liberals

>evolution stops at the neck up! All brains evolved exactly the same way!

>>7300868
Yeah

>>7300759
>the intellectual elite are made up of "laymen"
Maybe one day I'll be as smart as you anon.