/lit/ - Literature

No, it's a shithole where autistic people wank over their shitty fanfics while pointing out random things as tropes

>>7192882
It's probably the best. If you disagree, please post better resources, I will use them.

>>7192929
a university

Dumping Tropertales
http://web.archive.org/web/20100808115910/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/MagnificentBastard
http://web.archive.org/web/20100523112853/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/DoggedNiceGuy
http://web.archive.org/web/20101231063338/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/CrazyPrepared
http://web.archive.org/web/20100805065146/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/CloudCuckooLander
http://web.archive.org/web/20090219125340/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/DarkIsNotEvil
http://web.archive.org/web/20110226110202/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/BadassBookworm
http://web.archive.org/web/20101006184547/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/TookALevelInBadass
http://web.archive.org/web/20110421082850/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/AwesomeMomentsOfStandingUpToBullies
http://web.archive.org/web/20100819005344/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/AwesomenessByAnalysis
http://web.archive.org/web/20110602050822/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/CursedWithAwesome
http://web.archive.org/web/20110103111244/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustAnime
http://web.archive.org/web/20100814162659/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustComicBooks
http://web.archive.org/web/20110101172527/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustFilm
http://web.archive.org/web/20100914201920/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustLiterature
http://web.archive.org/web/20110223104408/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustLiveActionTV
http://web.archive.org/web/20101222001525/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustMusic
http://web.archive.org/web/20100901013223/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustMythology
http://web.archive.org/web/20100725101340/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustTabletopGaming
http://web.archive.org/web/20110118052133/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustTheatre
http://web.archive.org/web/20110303062349/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustWebcomics
http://web.archive.org/web/20110123200557/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustWebOriginal
http://web.archive.org/web/20110112012145/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustWesternAnimation
http://web.archive.org/web/20100913081548/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustDisney
http://web.archive.org/web/20100913085627/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustOther

>>7192882
No, it's shit.
>>7192942
>Troper Tales
That shit was considered too autistic even by their standards and removed.

>>7192942
http://web.archive.org/web/20110317041354/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/BadassLongcoat
http://web.archive.org/web/20110303073901/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/BadassBoast
http://web.archive.org/web/20100526232516/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/BigBrotherInstinct
http://web.archive.org/web/20110225120453/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/BewareTheNiceOnes
http://web.archive.org/web/20110226124822/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/BrilliantButLazy
http://web.archive.org/web/20110114001248/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/NICEHAT
http://web.archive.org/web/20110407014802/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/IncestIsRelative
http://web.archive.org/web/20100329081326/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/ObfuscatingStupidity
http://web.archive.org/web/20100715220815/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/OhMyGods
http://web.archive.org/web/20110210144052/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerkyGoth
http://web.archive.org/web/20100819103551/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/KissingCousins
http://web.archive.org/web/20090113230746/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/CatchPhrase
http://web.archive.org/web/20090415062743/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/GeniusDitz
http://web.archive.org/web/20100412140712/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/StalkerWithACrush

"Favorite Line from your own writing"
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=rpwbbt9wa34u21yr6nrxbp7d

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/SonicXDarkChaos

>The story is a full remake of the third and final season of Sonic X. When a young alien girl crashes on their world, Sonic and his friends discover that she is being hunted by a powerful new foe; an android fox known as Tsali the Ultimate Weapon, who has declared genocide on her people and hunted them down to extinction for reasons unknown. Our heroes go into space to stop this new enemy and find the Chaos Emeralds.

>And from there, things get worse. Much, much worse.

>Sonic and his friends find themselves in a galaxy engulfed in tyranny and civil war between an enormous empire of demons led by Lord Maledict and the Metarex, and threatened by invasion from the ancient enemies of the Demons, the Angel Federation. But as Sonic and friends soon discover, there are far greater horrors than mere demons and angels beyond the void.

>What makes it somewhat unique among Sonic fanfiction is its complex and Troperiffic Science Fantasy setting, combining equal parts Warhammer 40,000, Diablo, the Metroid games, the works of HP Lovecraft, and death metal

http://web.archive.org/web/20110226115102/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/CelibateHero

>>7192969
"Killing demons and saving the world is work for a hero. Do I look like a hero to you?" —Morgan Stormrider

This one really hit home with me

>>7192882
Uh it's a good resource for tropes

Maybe this is just because I'm a pseudo-Lit lover and a writefag, but their overuse and abuse of "Deconstruction" triggers my autism off to no end.

Like holy shit, now we have so many countless stupid teenagers and weeboos thinking everything since sliced bread is a "Deconstruction" and that it means "Making things like real lifezzz! And that means people die and it's actually sad and realistic and stuff!"

The misunderstanding of that word really upsets me.

>>7193167
Even worse is that it seems to have spread to other places on the internet and 'deconstruction' has almost usurped the meaning of 'analysis'.

>>7193080
Most of them aren't even tropes in the literary sense, they are just overused clichés.

>>7192882
Good idea, awful community and execution, memetic titles and terrible referencing and examples

>>7192956
>This Troper is the Gentle Giant. So naturally, no one expects me to do something bad. Friends with everyone around me? Great, that's wonderful. Even starting a new school, people know not to screw around with me. I live a pleasant life besides the bullies, in quiet respect for one another. I'm "so lovable"! Watch out though, for god's sake, if I tell you "I suggest you stop that," because one way or another, you are going to stop that. Sometimes, I don't have to do a damn thing, they just stop it. Because the last time someone didn't heed my advice? Fourth Grade, kid everyone minded, sort of like me. Wouldn't stop gabbing about how he was so popular these days. My method of downsizing his ego? Got the whole student body to hate him. Every. Single. One. I just had to be cold and distant to him, and that's all it took. What ended up happening was at the end of school, where we all had to go to High School, he left, crying, last day, and his family moved back to Edmonton. How do I know it's because of me? He said himself "I HATE you, ALL of you! I hope I NEVER see ANY of you AGAIN! IN FACT, I KNOW I'll never see ANY of you again!" As he left, I pleasantly remarked "Don't worry! I'll try taking you out with a Hitman!" I guess you could say I'm an unmotivated Magnificent Bastard.

>This Troper's personality combines a genuine, old-fashioned innocence with a strong sense of morality and an unwavering personal honor. This sounds wonderful until we reach theF next paragraph. Then one notices that This Troper also possesses an extensive knowledge of the world and an instinct for creative cruelty, at which point the entire thing becomes more than a little disturbing. Years were spent learning to control these emotions properly, and God help you if you really wind up on the wrong end of them. There will be blood.

>Arguably, this Troper is probably the youngest of which who suffers from this Trope. This is practically the invisible label that's under the invisible Berserk Button of this 13-year old kid. He broke 33 pencils in his life, and had a good friend break two of those pencils because they were too hard. He even yelled at someone because that guy was the third person who asked if he could be punched for the third time, with a teacher only a mile ahead!

The stupid jokes which permeate every single sentence on the site are annoyingly bad, but it's a nice site to learn about some movies or videogames you like because they've literally organized a list of every single, little thing you could possible consider interesting about them. I like going on it occasionally, but it's not a place I'll ever consider socializing on.

>>7192994
>>and death metal

>>7192942
>http://web.archive.org/web/20100913085627/http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/PerverseSexualLustOther

>For this troper, it's sharks. Yes, sharks. Those huge fish with snaggly teeth and ominous fins? Great whites in particular. They make her horny, no joke. Especially those slow-motion shots of them jumping out of the water in pursuit of a seal, skin shiny and tails lashing and eyes rolled back and what the hell is wrong with me??? The "Shallow Seas" episode of Planet Earth had her breathing funny for several minutes afterwards.

What the fuck? There are women out there who want to fuck sharks? I've heard of women fucking horses and dogs, but this is the first I've heard of a woman wanting to fuck a non-mammal.

>>7193029

What page was this on? Things that never happened?

>>7192942
>This troper is a reclusive Deadpan Snarker, and everything, everything she wears, owns or uses, is black. Her wardrobe, her purse, her backpack, her wallet, her mp3 player, every single one of her gaming consoles (Yes, including her Wii) and she seldom even turns a light on. If you do get the chance to talk to her though, you'll find her to be anything but goth. Sure she's snarky and can be a bit foul-tempered, but everything being black and her general dark-and-spooky gimmick is more of a Bunny Ears Lawyer thing.

>One random day, I got jumped in the school hallway by the resident prick and wound up breaking my arm in the the fray. (Other than that, my arm was not involved.) Later that day, while I was walking to lunch, that same kid was standing outside the cafeteria. He ran at me and punched me in the face. The true CMOA was that I didn't flinch and, still smiling, said "Your prey is the predator." (As to what that meant—it's sorta metaphorical.) I turned away from the cafeteria and walked down the hallway alone...and then I heard "Holy crap! Did you see that?!"

>This Troper is a total gun junkie and loves hanging out on the range. I've observed the most dedicated and accurate shooters are quiet nerdy guys

>This Troper is definitely not an asexual at all. In fact, I'm actually the opposite! I'm a pansexual. YES YOU HEARD THAT RIGHT. PANSEXUAL. For those that don't know it's basically being sexually attracted to EVERY human being. That means babies, little boys and girls (not as a pedophile though, they do it as a craze filled fetish), our family, friends, teenagers, young adults, the middle aged, matured adults, seniors, males, females, gays, lesbians, queers, transsexuals, bisexuals, intersexuals, the androgynous, the masculine, the feminine, blacks, whites, asians, latinos, jews, middle easterns, native americans, eastern europeans, etc, etc, etc!!! And I don't mean just in a sensual way, I mean in an ACTUAL SEXUAL WAY, like how fanboys nerdgasm at Star Wars or how fangirls squee the hell out of their favorite yaoi slash fanfiction. Imagine it like being attracted to the full beauty of the human experience and body as a True Masterpiece crafted by God's hand and you'll start to understand how pansexuals feel. Now that doesn't mean we can't see someone as physically ugly, we can still have personal preferences or squick at that 80 pound tumor growing out of someone's face. Anyway, I'm that way, yet I have chosen to be forever a virgin celibate. I would like to add more and say, but anyone feel sorry for me yet?

>>7192969
Every single example is someone trying desperately to ape Josh Whedon's writing style.

>“We have a very simple solution for such problems.”
>“Such as?”
>“Hit them with something heavy, preferably sharp. Then keep hitting them until they stop moving. Alternatively, shoot them.”

>“Your front door was locked, so we kicked it in. Scientifically.”

>"Nothing is what you think it is. This city, the government, your life; they're all lies."
>"Huh. Well, from where I'm standing, it looks pretty clear-cut. This is me, this is my kitchen and you are the psycho who is about to get booted out the front door."

>Hero: "OK, so you're stronger than me and faster than me, but I can still win."
>Dragon: "Going to try that power of friendship nonsense?"
>Hero: "No, just the power of a lower standard of victory. I don't care whether I can stand up after this fight, but what happens if I weaken you enough for one of your subordinates to kill you?"

>Having just been saved by what's obviously a dragon...
>"You’re a dragon," he finally said.
>"My, how very observant of you dear!"

>"Oh-Em-Gee!"
>"Correction, Oh-Em-Eff-Gee."

>Big Bad: "You are like insects to me!"
>Hero: "And you are about to find out why entomophobia is so common."

>>7193742
>"[I'm sexually attracted to] babies, little boys and girls (not as a pedophile though, they do it as a craze filled fetish)."

Well thank God his sexual attraction to babies and small children isn't pedophilic at all. I was starting to get worried.

>>7192969
>Like a lover in the sunset, the sky falls down

>>7193878
>“Your front door was locked, so we kicked it in. Scientifically.”

this one isn't that bad really.

>"Nothing is what you think it is. This city, the government, your life; they're all lies."
>"Huh. Well, from where I'm standing, it looks pretty clear-cut. This is me, this is my kitchen and you are the psycho who is about to get booted out the front door."

don't know the context, but remove the psycho part and it's not that bad.

also, Whedon didn't invent witty or ''quippy'' dialogue. he's probably one of their stronger influences, but i doubt it's their only one.

>>7192942
>>7192956
What is this faggotry
Someone explain

>>7192942
That image is like a decade old interpretation of 4chen. Do people not check 4chan out and see if it fits their preconceptions of it?

>>7193949
After noticing that a lot of egotistical tropers kept dumping their LiveJournal diarrhea all over the trope pages, Fast Eddie (the creator of the site) did what he does best and created a ghetto for these pathetic basement dwellers to talk about how they're totally awesome Mary Sues rather than just banning their faggot asses on sight. This section quickly turned into one of the most popular parts of the site, with each page growing more and more cancerous as the aspies all try to out-bullshit each other.

There was a time the moderators not only did absolutely nothing about people trolling in this section, but even outright said the section is dumb and a waste of time. While one would think this would have made the section a goldmine of kek, in reality, it made it impossible to tell the difference between cool stories and satires thereof. Full-on troll-blindness was inevitable. Also, what fun is trolling if you're not going to eventually get banned for it?

As of February 2011, however, this section gained proper rules of conduct that discourages both outright bullshitting and trolling. While Fast Eddie did this because of his desire to make the site "family friendly" (for Google AdSense rather than his personal beliefs, of course!), he instead made trolling it a worthwhile endeavor once again. After a while though, Troper Tales went the way of the dodo, too, so apparently even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

>>7192882
Just as how deviantART breeds hack artists and FanFiction.Net breeds hack writers, TV Tropes breeds hack critical analysts. This review of Of Mice and Men says all that needs to be said.

>They call this a story?
>Of Mice And Men is one of the legends of American literature, telling an epic tale of two men and their tragic-Oh let me puke, this story (And I'll question the validity of that statement later) is boring, boring, boring, the villain is kinda non-existent and ridiculous flat, the characters are dull, the plot isn't engaging and it's just unpleasant to read.

>Now may I question the validity of Of Mice And Men as a story, firstly, George does absolutely nothing to change his environment, he goes to the ranch and...sits on his ass for ninety pages, that is not a story, the protagonist does nothing to change the plot, he has a plan yes, and it may even be realistic, but it isn't a story, and that bothers me that people are supposed to read a non-story.

>There's not a whole lot more I can say about this except how much I fucking despise Steinbeck as an author, yes I understand that being poor sucks major balls, you don't have to bend the rules of reality and pull a Diabolus Ex Machina out of your ass to end your stories. He does it in The Grapes Of Wrath, The Pearl, and this abomination, why would you do that bullshit once, not to mention three times? (If not more, I don't know his work that well.)

>Please, explain to me how this piece of hogwash is in any way palatable or should be held up as an example of quality literature. (Yes I realize I'm being trollish, please rise above my poorly written anger and defeat me with cool logic and stunning wordplay, not YOU SUCK!!! FAEGOT!!!)

>>7193988
>not even kekkable
Oh am I glad I stopped even but glancing at this shithole years ago

>>7193167
How would you define deconstruction?

>>7194393
I'll use Watchmen as an example since TvTropes considers it to be the ultimate deconstruction of comic books.

To sum it up simply;
The true meaning of Superheros is CAPITALISM. Freedom, liberty, western ideologue shit. Any quick analysis can tell you that.

Watchmen takes all the things that makes Superheros superheros and showed when taken to it's logical extreme, that shit falls on it's fucking face and spits on everything that establishes it.

That's the whole point of a Deconstruction. In it's original context, every work of text or narrative has inherent contradictions and deconstructs itself when examined in a micro-lense. All a deconstruction does is point these out, it's a method of analysis. Not some 'Genre' like how TVTropes uses it.

It might be easier to explain it in that Watchmen, rather than merely deconstructs superheros, deconstructs what they represent. It literally shits on an entire century of ideological history and idea-relations based conflict. It's an entire "Fuck you" to the 20th century.

Once you take the ideology and biased lens away however, you see that there's no way such a scenario (superpowered individuals given unlimited power) would follow such a bias, because that's reality. That's the TV Tropes story, but it's not enough to take it that far.

To truly deconstruct a work you have to smash the very ideology with the very usage of it that the work you're deconstructing. Superheros a shit.

The reason Evangelion isn't a deconstruction, for instance is because it's a very modernist work. It throws challenges in the way of the Superhero Genre, and the Japanese work ethic, the culture-capitalist mindset and narrative their country that exists there, but ultimately the same message survivors. "Man up, be the hero, save the world/Japan in giant robots/the Work Industry." The only difference is you don't get the girl or any praise for it. It's realistic, but it doesn't really go against the status quo even if it differs from it. It just arguments it in a more realistic and practical light. The same moral survives.

In a sense, Kung Fu Panda is more of a deconstruction than Evangelion is. I'm not kidding.

The way Watchmen does this is interesting. It takes Modernism to it's logical extreme and shows that if Superheros had any resemblance to reality they would betray and destroy the thing they aim to represent.

Do you know what else did that? World War II. Those wars and the states representing them were the extreme of Modernism, and in that deconstructs itself. Watchmen pays close attention to this and makes many nods to it by staging it in the cold war era. The end results (A war/terrible plot ending with nuclear explosions being leverages) also establish a clear parallel.

The subversion in place isn't just that Watchmen criticizes superheros but superheros by existing in any consideration ultimately revoke themselves of any sense we make of them.

>>7194393
>>7194523
A deconstruction is always self-inherent in any text.
It's just a critique of a work based on what is existing in itself

>>7194523
>terrible plot ending with nuclear explosions being leverages
Confirmed for not having read it.

>but ultimately the same message survivors. "Man up, be the hero, save the world/Japan in giant robots/the Work Industry."
But Eva's ultimate message was about self-acceptance in the face of social pressure.

>make a tvtropes account for a couple of days
>someone has a My Little Pony avatar and proceeds to post in the same topic as me
>nobody tells the faggot to fuck off
>realize that MLP is socially acceptable on that site
>never go back on tvtropes

>>7194523
You know what's a really good deconstruction of comic books? Durarara. It sets up all these crazy-powerful beings with origin stories, that chick's a Dullahan, that guy has rage-power all the time, that kid's moot, and then nobody fights crime. They just work at bars and stuff.

>>7192882
If you're looking for story ideas, yes. For serious writing aid or analysis, no.

>>7194535
>But Eva's ultimate message was about self-acceptance in the face of social pressure.
That's it's ultimate point, but it never really takes a hard look at the standard message of "Man up and do it," that giant robot anime tend towards. A proper deconstruction should take a hard look at the standard message and determine if it's logical/would stand up in reality or not.

For another anime, example, Madoka Magica is often held as a deconstruction of magical girl anime. While there are some twists, the ultimate message ends up being "No, wait, you really ARE special!" while all it really does to show if this is a valid point is putting the characters through a bit more hardship than is normal in a magical girl anime.

I don't really watch enough anime to give an example of a proper deconstruction. At the risk of everyone telling me I'm an idiot, maybe Watamote since it breaks down the illusion that otaku will suddenly become popular with no work in high school and that if you want to make friends you have to put effort into not being a social outcast since no magical angel will drop from the sky after visiting you in dreams?

>>7194597
>the ultimate message ends up being "No, wait, you really ARE special!"
"You're special by virtue of the trust and love your friends and family place in you, not by the arbitrary whim of a supernatural being?"

>>7194675
You're right, that's probably a better description. But that is how ninety percent of magical girl anime end. The heroine's power isn't strong enough, so she starts losing the final battle, and then her friends give her the strength to win. Oh, it wasn't the power, if was your friends that saved you! Hell, that's a majority of anime period.

It would have been a deconstruction if it went more in the direction of the supernatural being or the apocalypse being unavoidable. Sort of like a "Sometimes, all your power and friends can't help. Some things are just inevitable compared to the smallness of your existence."

>>7194692
Like when even becoming a literal god couldn't keep Homura from her self-destructive love?

>>7194774
That's still nowhere near the main message of the story. That's just a bit more of the suffering the characters have to go through to realize that friendship and being special are all that matters.

Just because the characters go through more suffering than normal, that doesn't make it a deconstruction. (See: Charlotte)

>>7194805
That is literally the end of the story.

>>7194597
>That's it's ultimate point, but it never really takes a hard look at the standard message of "Man up and do it," that giant robot anime tend towards.

What? Did you and I watch the same anime? The End Of Evangelion wasn't about responsibility or duty, it was about facing reality and all the suffering and isolation that comes with it because it contains the possibility of true happiness/camaraderie. It's a very Camus-esque/absurdist message.

It's impossible to have an actual conversation about TVTropes on this website

>>7194204
The one on Macbeth is just awful.
>Glimpses of genius marred by inconsistent writing and poor characterization
>This review focuses on Macbeth, but will also contain my criticism of Shakespeare's works as a whole.

>Shakespeare makes rational men mad and the greatest of critics weak kneed and fawning. The man is the foremost writer of the english language, and we consider his works to be on the same level as the greats of today. But I ask you this? Why. The mans work had flaws that any other author would be called on. If we excuse that with, "He was from the 1600s" we insult the man. He can't be the best of all time and a product of his.

>Now, the work in question. Macbeth is introduced as an honorable, worthy and good guy. What the hell happened? The excuse of his wife's nagging loses its punch after he locks her out of his schemes. Character Development you say. Well there's a difference between that and Macbeth, one scene he feels guilty, next he starts calling upon Satan and murdering peoples families for shits and giggles. If this play had some intervals between these events I would have bought it, but the play jumps ahead so fast that its like they have seven identical brothers with completely different personalities.

>Shakespeare does have some excellent lines that make up for the flaws in characters, but for every brilliant soliloquy he puts in you have one guy saying, "I am slain." And that line came after a fairly charming interaction between that character and his mother.

>The plot is simple and the Aesop is dull and cliche, Ambition Is Evil. And the editing is simply awful. Macbeth is full of disappearing characters and dropped plotlines.

>Ah, what about the characters themselves, they may have changed, but if you care about them, every thing is fixed, right? Well, Shakespeare did succeed, I liked Macbeth, I liked Lady Macbeth, I wanted them to win, I found Duncan to be an incompetent loser whose death would benefit scotland. This made the poor writing all the worse. I wanted the cool, conflicted Macbeth back, I wanted him to achieve victory over their dull and flat enemies. But instead of making an Anti Villain Shakespeare decided to throw him off the slippery slope to save himself the trouble of making the work complex at all.

>>7194969
There's not much conversation to be had. It's a great database of 'tropes' (used quotes because they severely overuse the term) and cliches in fiction, but the user base is incredibly autistic.

You'll get about the same out of it as you would get out of some time on wikipedia, just more targeted towards fiction and less extra information.

>>7194976
Then these threads should be bannable, because their only point of existence is to shitpost

The problem with a lot of the people on TVTropes is they ignore some basic truths most writers would do well to remember: you're not as smart as you think you are, you're not as clever as you think you are, and the reader isn't as dumb as you think they are.

But most of the people on TVTropes only ever consider the tropes on their own, and seem to pay very little attention to how those tropes are used together and combined to affect the story. To them the story is just full of tropes waiting to be found. It's like they managed to miss the forest through the trees.

>>7194979

Why are you so butthurt b?
You don't do it for free so what difference does it make if some anons make fun of a bunch of legit autists?

>>7194973
>>7194204

Why do these people think they know how to critically analyze things? There's no way these are real or at least please don't tell me they are real.

>>7194969
TvTropes as a site fails because it caters to the pseudo-intellectual. The same people who make and catalog tropes also consider themselves masters of literature simply because they've boiled down any plot into a series of cliches that they use as an arbitrary metric. Take this troper for example, Deboss

Deboss views himself as a critic of literature. He likes to freely hand out his opinions on books, their importance, and what works have real literary value.

>"The mandatory component for English is both too large and too focused on 'classics'. Any literature that has to be required to get readership, isn't a book worthy of being read. I honestly can't think of any exceptions. History of literature would also be cut from any class that doesn't have "history" in the name, and none of them would be required. There's nothing worth learning there unless someone is already interested. ...Also, no state funded field trips to go see plays. They're a form of art that will hopefully die soon anyway."

Deboss is a literary critic in the same sense that a tapeworm is a food critic. The things Deboss has to say about books are the most insipid things I have ever heard in my life, and the fact that he's allowed to post on a site that supposedly bans people for being too negative is why I decided to highlight the goddamn morons who populate that site's literature discussions.

>"My advice would be to further promote Table Top Games since those require reading and interpretation without all the bullshit that normal literature classes have. Combined with the fact that children are rarely if ever exposed to anything worth reading, it's not surprising that they don't pick it up."

Deboss thinks that a D&D Player's Manual offers more to the soul than "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock." Deboss is such an idiot that it makes me wonder if his skull is still soft, but then I realize that it must actually be pretty thick because how else do you explain the fact he wasn't aborted?

>"Shakespeare was the most unpleasant work I've ever been exposed to. I've seen most of Uwe Boll and Seltzer Burger work, and I'm including it in that statement. Part of the unpleasantness comes from the idea that it's impossible to dislike it, and the answer is greater exposure to Shakespeare. The sooner the works of Shakespeare are forgotten, the better. Given the power, I'd make teaching it a capitol offense."

Deboss is to literary criticism as John Wayne Gacy was to the world of comedy, and Deboss's posts are to my faith in humanity as John Wayne Gacy was to fifteen-year-old boys. Deboss has a college degree and only books he reads are Animorphs and Star Wars novels-- and he thinks this makes him smarter than the rest of us. Deboss is such an idiot he can't even manage to be illiterate correctly. The process by which his brain tries to shit out intelligent thought most closely resembles a botched suicide.

>>7192969
>"Oh God, what did you do to him, why does he have a head of a fox?!"
"First of all, madame, it's a lynx, not fox. Second, god had nothing to do with it!"
"Warring atheist, I see. But what's wrong with your head, you poor thing? Why is it a head of a lynx instead of a normal, human one? Also, WHERE THE HELL AM I WHAT KIND OF INSANE PLACE IS THIS?!"

>>7192956

>a very smart badass

>>7193906
Perhaps its genius - a lover in their twilight, the spark is fading, and that feeling of the world crashing down is starting to settle in. It's distant, but inevitable - just like what would happen if the sky fell. A mixture of joy from love - the beauty of the sunset - but knowing its all crashing down and will soon fall to a bleak, sorrowful darkness.

In some ways it makes you ponder life itself - the inevitable sunset we must all face, the sky - so distant - yet will one day be no more for all of us.

Or its just utter horseshit

>>7192969
>"You are very attractive," he said, as though it were a survey question and the options were very attractive, attractive, neither attractive nor unattractive, unattractive, very unattractive, prefer not to answer.

Fuck that's awful.

>>7195178
plebs mad cuz day can't articulate a refutal KEK

>>7194204

I really get the feeling that this guy only watches superhero movies.

>>7194543

I've grown to dislike many, many things about 4chan over the years, but whenever I take a look at another community I realize that this is all I'll ever have.

>>7194973
>inconsistent writing

but it's not supposed to be consistent

>poor characterization

but shakespeare is one of the masters of "characterization"

okay i'm getting mad i have to stop

this is one of the worst analyses of all time

>>7194973
>poor writing

>shakespeare
>poor writing

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME

even if you don't like his stories how the fuck can you call him a poor writer? even 4chan wouldn't be this contrarian

>>7193050

The guy telling him to cunt punch her... I would say the same thing if I saw that retardedness

>>7194973
>The plot is simple and the Aesop is dull and cliche, Ambition Is Evil.
What does this sentence even mean?
What the hell does Aesop have to do with this?

>>7197509
tvtropes likes to speak in tongues with little in-'jokes' all the time. If a book has a moral or a lesson you're supposed to learn, it's "An Aesop," not just a moral.

Anything randomly capitalized isn't poor editing, it's a link to the trope article

You know, before this thread I actually went to TV Tropes because I liked the concept at heart, and I wanted to see the themes common in works that I like. I never thought they were that bad, as long as you didn't go to the social sections
Now everything is different, I can never go back.

>>7194204
>>7194973
Huckleberry Finn:
>Racist, foul languaged, and unflattering.

>That's right, folks. This standard of American Literature is racist and condescending to any well-to-do person of a moral society while heinously wrapped up in a romantic pastiche of the Antebellum South. Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens has some nerve to throw away virtually every proper writing convention to construct this farce of an adventure. Which is why I consider this is one of the best books I have ever read.

>I really enjoyed how well played the satire is. Twain paints the South frankly and without restraint. It was much like Classical Athens where slavery is thought to be a natural fixture of an advanced, cultured society. The southern hospitality is played against moronic feuds and rampant racism; the cultural facades are unimaginably thick and full of logic holes and hypocrisy. Twain even stealthily attacks both realism and romanticism rampant around the Occidental sphere; his most famous passages are of Huck and Jim lazily floating down the Mississippi with all the time in the world, yet reading the book it is clear that they are deep in a dangerous, filthy place where they can easily lose their lives. The story gets quite scary if you think enough about it. The satire points out that yes, while the South does have it's jewels, you cannot ignore the tarnish that comes with it when you look back. The dialogue is wonderfully horrid; the writing is likewise exceptional. You can tell why this man is "The Father of American Literature". None of the social commentary brings attention to itself— a mark of a true humorist.

>However, this play between realism and romanticism grinds to a halt at the end; Mark Twain has a hard time ending the satirical journey because it can only end really happily, or really horribly with the way his story has been flowing, and inserting a certain best-friend-of-Huck doesn't make things any better. It only exacerbates what was a smooth mix of the good and the bad, turning ugly. We always say that it's the journey that really matters in the end, but we should never forget where we came from, or else we will be in danger of running in circles.

>>7197979

I do not have a hatred of any other race, and still I despise those who use the word "racist" to criticize a book.

For example, on the Goodreads page of Live and Let Die, the James Bond novel, many of the reviewers argue that it's bad simply because it's "racist", disregarding the fact that it's a work by a British author in the early 1950s. As well, they seem to be offended by the use of the word "nigger" even though it didn't have negative connotations at the time. Honestly, when I read Live and Let Die, I found that it actually painted a really positive picture of black people. One of the main characters has a close relationship with black people and visits Harlem often, and one page describes black people as not often being criminals.

>>7192882
It's spergy as fuck and they usually have pleb taste but it's really interesting as an amazingly comprehensive exercise in a weird kind of formalist-type analysis.

Also, their Useful Notes section is great.

>>7192969

>“In the meantime, I recommend that you apply a sufficient force to your opponents’ crania, preferably by the circular motion of a solid object, so as to ease our capture of the prize.”

>“By which you mean…?”

>“Hit the sods in the head with a big stick.”

>“Fair enough. I shall make my move.” I ended the call and silently dropped to the pavement below. Snatching a length of steel piping from the grassy field to my rear, I laid still until the silhouette reached striking distance, which was when I lunged out of the shadows.
My first strike was a miss – as it turned out, the darkness had me mistake the man’s inexplicable top hat for his face. Nonetheless, I swung back around, only to find him grabbing its other end, streetlights glinting off his angry eyes. Near the car stood his accomplice, a shorter silhouette with what appeared to be an Uzi machine pistol. Upon my mistake of shoving away the other man, a burst of rounds impacted my surrounding landscape in the dark. Creeping back to where he aimed, I charged out from the dark and swung my weapon, scarcely impacting him when a pair of powerful hands grabbed me from behind.

>As it happened, this would not be an ideal moment for my mobile phone to vibrate.

>My arm reflexively swung aside, dodging the motion of the solid length of steel. As it happened, my grip was loosened and my mobile phone gracefully flew through the chilly night air into some bushes. The fact that it was second-hand offered scarce consolation, for I was withstanding two powerful assailants and it was good to play Angry Birds on.

I can almost imagine the writer looking at a list of tropes and just putting shit in. “Deadpan Snarker, check, Buffy speak, check, Calling your own attacks, check." This place is where creativity goes to die.

>>7200481
>The fact that it was second-hand offered scarce consolation, for I was withstanding two powerful assailants and it was good to play Angry Birds on.
I have to admit I kek'd at this. The rest of it is pretty bad.

>>7192969
I wish I lived in a world where Joss Whedon didn't exist

It's great because you can see what cultural references go where, etc. Now you wouldn't discount a Roman monument just because the Romans drew phalluses and wrote graffiti on it.

Actually, as it turns out, that graffiti indicates that the column was stolen from the temple at Athens by Dictator Sulla. Cultural artifacts are more than just art to be appreciated ex nihilo. They are also a part of history.