/lit/ - Literature

Just read that one David Foster Wallace story that perfectly explains the paradox of modern feminism. Basically it states that women, while theoretically feminist, still have fundamentally anti-feminist needs.

It's Brief Interview with Hideous Men #28 02-97

You better read that because I looked through my copy of that book specifically for you.

>>7164962

Not OP, I'm going to look into it.

Thanks for the rec anon.

>>7164932
forgive women for trying to figure out a reason for why men rape them, and also sharing similar fantasies (but nowhere is it said or even inferred that media and culture have zero influence on men raping women).
give them time to learn from their mistakes, like all male institutions have been afforded

>>7164932
>Awesome doublethink.

Not really.

Theres a massive difference between women having rape fantasies and males fantasizing raping women. Different power structures involved that have real world context also the woman gives consent by engaging in the fantasy.

These novels are also aimed at women who again are giving consent to said fantasies by engaging and enjoying them, where most mainstream media is aimed at men and the woman character is there to exist as a sex object with "no agency"/consent of its own

>Feminists don't know what they actually want

Does this come off as shocking to you? On one hand portraying sex is objectification, on the other hand it's empowering. On one hand a women being able to fuck everyone is gratifying, on the other hand it's rape and objectification. On one hand women are strong and independent, on the other hand men are evil and we must protect women from them. On one hand women should be allowed to make their own decisions and choices, on the other hand they don't because internalized misogyny, and every time they make life decisions that don't mimic men's decisions it's also internalized misogyny. On one hand women's femininity and differences should be cherished, on the other hand if they aren't exactly equal to men in every conceivable way it's misogyny.

Well which one is it shitlords? Make up your minds smh

>>7164932
Gee OP, never heard of "feminists" being clinically retarded and exercising Double-Think before. Thanks for the thread.

>>>A voice for men
>>>/pol/
>>>r/theredpill

>>7164990
smh tbh fam

>>7164932
>Where does that term hide when feminists are looking to chastise men who had drunk sex or portrayed it in art?

Woman having rape fantasies justifies real world rape?

>comes back up titanium solid when talking about female fantasies...

What is agency?

>And that's how one and the same fantasy can be good or bad according to the genitals of the person who gets off to it.

What are power structures? what is agency?

0/10

>>7164932
>>7164932
>how hypocritical is this shit?
the same as this one

Sweden_to_abolish_affirmative_action_-_Europe_-_Around_the_globe_-_World

reminder that the feminists want
-to keep the female privileges
-to destroy the male privileges [as if those still exist today]

>>7164932

>>7164932

Why do people always make out that consent is a really simple issue? If it was simple, we wouldn't be having all these problems.

Secondly, how often do people actually verbally consent to sex?

This conversation never happens:

"I would like to have sex with you now."
"Yes that is ok I consent to this sex."

Yet everyone pretends it's normal. In film, literature and real-life no-one ever verbally consents.

And the real reason? Because it would ruin the sexual tension. It would be like, if you were telling a joke, telling someone the punchline first because otherwise they might be surprised and may even laugh.

>>7164994
>published in 2010

>>7164932
>It's almost as if the "cultural influence from the media makes men rapists" narrative they push so hard just vanishes completely when you turn it around on women; as if the barrier between fantasy and real life, which they have assured us is porous and allows for brainwashing, comes back up titanium solid when talking about female fantasies...

it doesn't, and that's precisely why they have this kind of fantasies. of course there are women with masochistic tendencies but we're not talking about them. "the media" still promotes this image of a strong dominant hero and women get turned on by books about these strong dominant heroes because it's the romantic ideal they're used to. on the other hand, women with "good" background that aren' used to trashy romance movies and books often find these descriptions off-puting.
the article is pretty dull though.

>>7164932
No offense OP, but you seem to have an issue differentiating between sexual fantasy and real world scenarios that involve humiliation and pain.

There are probably men who also have pretty fucked up fantasies as well m8, without them wanting it to really happen in the real world.

>>7164993
>agency
>power structures
I bet op hasn't ever heard of these or thinks it's blah blah academic gibberish

>>7164932
You know you dun goofed when even 4chan thinks your opinions on feminism are retarded.

>>7165006
this

>>7165010
There are plenty of things to criticize feminism for. But this is not one of them.

Not everyone who is critical of the feminist narrative in society is a frothing woman-hater.

>>7164932
reminder

>>7164982
i don't even agree with op but this is stupid. a man is treated as an object too whenever a women fantasizes one. this whole objectification thing is a bunch of sophistry

>>7165006
>that involve humiliation and pain.
according to whom ? those who endure what you qualify as pain and humiliation do not have the same judgement as you...

>>7165034

>>7165040
I'm pretty sure it's a cultural universal that being physically forced to have sex, or sexually assaulted is associated with pain and humiliation.

>>7164982
>where most mainstream media is aimed at men and the woman character is there to exist as a sex object with "no agency"/consent of its own
nice cliché mate, can you live with us in 2015 where you would notice that the feminists have been pushing pussy-eating in mainstream movies for a solid decade and selling this as ''men caring for the women'' ?

I bet you ate pussies, good bet as you are.

>>7165045
perhaps one day, you will attend a few orgies.

>>7165049
Are you fucking stupid? Since when do orgies involve sexual assault or rape?

>Again more retarded people who associate rape and sexual assault with sex

>>7165058
you don't understand, anon's entire experience of sex is confined to brazzers and kink.com videos

>>7165045
that implies that there are universal values that all societies adheres to, this is pure and utter eurocetric ideology

and the article discussed rape not sexual assault. as is often pointed out, a majority of rapes happen among people who know each other and are not physically violent but involve alcohol. sexual assault has an aggressive connotation that even if people apply it to rape is totally unwarranted. anyway, in the former case it need not be associated with "pain" and not necessarily with humiliation. It's a well known fact that arab used to offer their women to their social betters or one perceived as having desirable personality or physical traits and asking him to impregnate his wife (literally cucked lol). The wife probably didn't have a choice in this case but it probably didn't have to be painful or humiliating

>>7165069
And how do you know that these Arab women didn't find it painful and humiliating?

Right, you don't.

>>7164932

The thing is that no feminist with a lick of sense would object to men having rape fantasies just like women. (n.b. yes of course there are senseless feminists just like there are senseless people in every conceivable camp)

But rape/dub-con fantasies where consent or the lack thereof is deliberately used as a source of conflict, sexual tension and narrative power is a world away from just blithely depicting women as objects with no agency. One of those is an informed and deliberate play on taboo subjects stemming from the primal desires of both sexes, whilst the other is a normalisation of an unhealthy view of sex.

Stories about women being deprived of their agency are not antifeminist. The really antifeminist stories are the ones which deprive women of their agency and don't intend you to notice that it's happened.

>>7165072
Oh please, and who are you to say that some didn't enjoy it? Notice I said "it probably [i.e. didn't necessarily] have to be painful or humiliating"

Western values are not universal and you're argument is just appealing to emotional and ahistorical mumbo jumbo.

>>7165069
some straight up fucking insane rape apology here folks, just walk right by

>>7165083
I never said "Western values are universal" you retarded imbecile.

I said humiliation and pain are cultural universals, and females, because they belong to the species Homo sapiens sapiens clearly do not like to be raped or sexually assaulted, because it is associated with pain and humiliation.

But please, please for the love of god, give me evidence that there exists, or has existed a society were women freely and openly like being raped or sexually assaulted.

>>7165083
fuck, he justified his rape apology. bravo

>>7165086
>>7165077
stop samefagging please. Just admit you lost this argument. Now you're attacking my character.

Never was I making an apology for rape. I find it abhorrent. But you're just repeating feminist dogmas and maybe you should put your mind to work thinking with more precision instead of romanticizing rape as "sexual assault." Maybe it is 'assault' on an emotional level, but that is a bit contrived

>>7165091

>But please, please for the love of god, give me evidence that there exists, or has existed a society were women freely and openly like being raped or sexually assaulted.

I mean this is kind of a contradiction in terms isn't it? 'Rape' and 'sexual assault' are loaded terms for unwelcome and nonconsensual sexual contact. In a context where women welcome it, it's not rape or sexual assault, it's just normal sexual contact.

And no, no 'free love' society has ever existed because it's in our genetics to be sexually selective and compete for the best mates.

>>7165096

>>7165077
here

first post in this thread, and I'm not trying to attack anyone or parrot anything, I'm trying to explain to you how the two things you are conflating are not the same. You're the one who's responding with personal attacks instead of actual discussion. If you don't want to talk about this then why start a thread, were you just hoping for an MRA echo chamber? Better off in /r9k/ for that.

>>7165101
Yes exactly it is a contradiction in terms, because everything that is not rape, is just sex, and everything that is sex is not rape, but he used some kind of sociological and cultural relativist argument, to make me believe that Arab women enjoyed or consented to being forced to fuck other men, which is clearly delusional.

If you are being forced to have sex with someone, it is rape, simple as that, and it is usually associated with pain, humiliation and shame, and this is true across all cultures.

>>7165096
>rape apologist

>>7165091
you're attributing values to humiliation and pain though, values that not all societies subscribe too. In our own society for example, we are all forced to deal with the constant pain, and even humiliation, of having to bust our asses for oligarchs. But we don't perceive it as bad..

>>7165107

I don't think you really made your point, though, because if his cultural-relativist starting point is legit then what those Arab women experienced wasn't rape or sexual assault at all (so your 'give me an example of a society where women enjoy rape' is irrelevant). Although also he fucked up by implying that it was rape. If we're going to be properly cultural-relativist about this then we have to accept that it wasn't rape since nobody involved would have considered it as such.

I mean basically of course I agree with you that the practice we're talking about here is inhumane and cultural relativism is bullshit. But also I take the other guy's point that maybe in some cases nobody had a problem with it, the woman viewed it as her duty and didn't find it particularly unpleasant, and in those cases to wade in and be like NO YOU WERE RAPED YOU'RE A VICTIM would be unhelpful and retarded.

>>7165114
>>7165105
I'm sorry...honestly it the tones of your posts were very similar

>>7165121
also I'm not the OP lel

>>7165120
>the woman viewed it as her duty and didn't find it particularly unpleasant

I agree with everything you say, except this, because it is impossible for you, or the other guy to know that this is the reality of the situation. It is simply not realistic to assume that people enjoy being forced to do things like that against their will, regardless of which culture you live in.

>>7165107
I never said all women enjoyed it. That would be ridiculous. But it would be taking the individual agency away from a women in this instance to imply that she didn't have the ability to enjoy it in this forced, but culturally accepted instance

>>7165133
Regardless, this thread has completely derailed, and the main point in the article is clearly stupid.

Fantasy and reality are not the same things, not now and not ever, and just because women fantasize about being dominated by a man does not mean they want to be raped in real life.

>>7165126

Yeah but

>maybe in some cases

I don't think it's unreasonable to conjecture that there may have been some instances where it wasn't, actually, particularly 'against her will' and she didn't hate it.

>>7165143
>some women may have liked rape once
>get over rape lady
>rape is literally the only way i can get laid

>>7165143
Well in those cases it clearly wouldn't be rape, but it's still a retarded cultural practice that demonstrates the supremacy of men over women.

>>7164993
I think (hope) the first point you quoted was referring to both parties or the male party being drunk. A drunk person is unable to consent to anything.

>>7165149
hi plebbit

Women will never be liberated as long as men exist

Whatever culture attempts to improve the position of women ends up in decline, and overtaken by societies with more oppressive patriarchal structures

The best hope for feminism is the destruction of men

>>7165153
does the inability of consent remove the culpability of not gaining consent?

>>7165140
>Fantasy and reality are not the same things,
nice personal opinion

the truth is that you cannot stand that people do not separate the two, because they do not think in this binary terms... too bad the world is not like you want it to be

>>7165160
Good b8 m8.

>>7165156
Hi /r9k/-/pol/.

Go back to your containment board(s).

>>7165120
>I don't think you really made your point, though, because if his cultural-relativist starting point is legit then what those Arab women experienced wasn't rape or sexual assault at all (so your 'give me an example of a society where women enjoy rape' is irrelevant).
of course.

for there to be rape, there must be consent and its violation. If a society has not the notion of consent, then there cannot be rape.

Of course the so called humanist-liberals do not like that other societies do not base their rules on consent. And by the way, the liberals like you do not even know what consent means. You cannot even propose a protocol to verify whether a person is consenting to an activity or not, during the whole activity.

>>7165148

Nigga pls. I never said I approved of the practice and I never said that it's not rape. I don't agree with cultural relativism, and I don't agree with rape. But I think it's dumb to deny that some women will almost certainly have gone along with it, not hated it, and may well have defended it if somebody had criticised the practice. Because that's how people work.

For that matter, there are modern-day rape survivors who go on record saying that it was all their fault and they feel guilty about it. I don't agree with them, but to deny they exist is ridiculous.

>>7165149

Actually imo it's still pretty much rape, because the point is that the woman never had a choice about it. She was unable to consent because if she had said no she would have been forced. Hence, like you say, a retarded cultural practice that demonstrates the supremacy of men over women. But let's not try to deny that people have different ways of interpreting their own experiences, even if we disagree with them.

>>7165159
The problem comes down to the fact that the male is suddenly always responsible for gaining consent, even if both parties weren't able to consent. I don't know what to compare it to, but it's not like one side in this situation was more innocent than the other.

>>7165164
>that pic

>>7165169
so if she's passed out and a man has a high enough blood alcohol reading, then she's fair game?

>>7165176
No, of course not. I'm mulling over this and I don't think this is an issue that can be solved without always having knowledge of the situation it happened in.

>>7165164

So you're saying that because other cultures have their own standards, I can't apply my own standards to them?

What qualifies as a 'culture', in your mind, so as to be exempt from our moral judgements? I mean ISIS are a pretty big movement, so since what they're doing is right in their own eyes, should we just conclude that we have no right to criticise their behaviour?

Also, please explain further how I (and other 'so-called humanist liberals'; also please explain who is calling me that, because as far as I can tell it's just you right now) cannot understand what consent is. Why does there need to be a 'protocol' to establish some kind of watertight black-and-white criteria for a concept which, by its nature, will always be subjective? Why can't we just try to promote a culture where people make informed decisions and respect each other?

What exactly are you proposing as an alternative?

>>7165046
link to original comic?

>>7165176
Also, I think it could be important to think about this like drunk driving, where if some drunk driver crashes through your wall, you should sue her and she should be punished for crashing through your wall. (Though some idiot people might be happier to sue her for being drunk)

>>7165185
>alternative
to what ?

>>7165185
he was criticizing liberals for being self-righteous about judging other societies. And he has a point, that same self-righteousness was also used to justify imperialism, during which the great powers imposed its values forcefully and killed hundred pf thousands in the process. Is it really worth overturning patriarchal societies if death is the consequence?

>>7165189
feel free to burn your eyes
http://www.assignedmale.com/

>>7164932
Why do you even try to make sense of these "feminists"?
Why would you lower yourself to their level?

Just stop giving them attention and they'll go away. Pretty much anything you do is time better spent.

>>7164997
are you actually this stupid?
I don't need explicit verbal consent to know if someone is consenting to have sex with me or not, I think I will know if consent is not present. Although perhaps you haven't found yourself in such a situation before so maybe you should be forgiven for misunderstanding such a simple concept.

>>7165236
>implying imperialism was bad
Compare India before and after the British rule.
Compare the African countries under European rule with the same countries before it (simple barbarism) or after it (endless civil wars and failed states).
In any case, far more people were always killed in the strife of native rule than imperialist rule.

>>7165299
You're actually defending imperialism holy shit.
I'm not gonna argue with you because honestly I can't be bothered. but know that I think you're retarded

>>7164993
>What are power structures?
Heavily in favor of women

what is agency?
Not legally relevant for fictional characters

I'm impressed by the quality of debate on a topic which is usually so fraught on 4chan.

>>7165164
and of course, which came first, sex? or verbal communication? did all sex that took place between our non verbal ancestors constitute rape? of course not, consent is not the 'easy simple issue' feminists are claiming it is, it will always be a grey area, the goal is for feminists to make that grey area only a danger to men

>>7164962
This looks interesting

>>7165320

>Heavily in favor of women

Just like any discussion about feminism on 4chan, this thread is serious aids, and this really sums it up. How can you be so dumb honestly.

>>7165330
nice argument, upvoted!

>>7165336

>>7165336

no argumentwas made in the first place idiot

great meme though you showed me

>>7165344
>gets offended
>"I am offended™!!!"
>tells everyone in the thread
>sips from male tears mug and leaves thread
>job well done

>Literature

Take this to /r9k/ or /pol/, I'm sure they're more than ready to agree with you that women run the world and that men are oppressed by the evil matriarchy.

>>>/r9k/
>>>/pol/

Again, this is for literature.

>>7164932
Do you actively go out in search of things about feminism to get outraged about and then post on 4chan?

>>7165077
/thread

>>7165077
>The really antifeminist stories are the ones which deprive women of their agency and don't intend you to notice that it's happened.
will you stop saying that a story can be feminist or antifeminist. only acts are so

What's with the non-redpilled libcucks in here?

Women are male property. They're masturbatory tools who are only good for their vaginas.

>>7165288
>>I don't need explicit verbal consent to know if someone is consenting to have sex with me or not, I think I will know if consent is not present. A
yes, until a few weeks later, when the girl decides that it was rape

>>7165313
Typical moron...

>>7165352
>retarded conversation is occurring
>"this conversation is retarded"
>"HURR DURR DURR"
>job well done

>>7165313
>You're actually defending imperialism holy shit.
the problem with imperialism is that the butthurt degenerate leftists like you destroyed it without any prior reflection

>>7165344
Great argument, upvoted!

>>7165399
Are you this guy by any chance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Ii5l23QXM

>>7164932
You and they are right and wrong for the wrong reasons.

Erotica/porn revolves mainly around the very primal ques we have about sex. These can be fundamentally different to the more complex preferences we have in social interactions.
i.e.: While there are many people who enjoy and actively practice BDSM, only very few in that group would report and identical dynamic in their romantic relationship.

Now this is not to say that our primitive impulses don't influence our social behavior. However, you have to keep in mind that "primitive" does not mean "basis of". (I think Freud fucked up most of the common understanding in psychology in that regard.)

Wanting to be dominant or submissive during sex is quite normal and there is good science on how (while the brains of both genders carry the ability to be either) men tend to be dominant more often while females tend to be more submissive. (It's the ventrolateral prefrontal cortex if I remember correctly...)
But this comes from the same parts of the brain that make heterosexual men want to see big dicks in porn (no, you watching shemale porn does not make you bi/gay) or women caring about how other women think of the attractiveness of a potential partner.

So yeah. Using porn to deduce personality traits in a human is retarded.

>>7165456
>closet homosexual

You are in a safe space here anon, come out.

>>7165473
speak for yourself, i'm redpilled and don't tolerate mentall illness.

Come talk to my friends on /pol/ and we'll teach you the truth on the degeneracy that is gayness

>>7165389
So telling a story isn't an act?

My god, you people actually care about this shit?

>>7165485

>I'm redpilled

Holy shit, you people aren't joking are you?

>>7165543
No, they are the joke itself.

>>7164981
Nothing was 'afforded'. It was taken. Feminists want shit given to them that men, blacks, asians, etc had to actively fight for. But also on top of that they want more than those groups too.

I like blasting zombies in left4dead but I don't shoot in real life.

>>7165528
Just a little bit of /pol/io. Nothiing to be too worried about.

>>7165038
>I don't understand objectification theory

>>7165722
>theory

>>7165726
That's what it is. A theory about the concept of objectification and how it functions in a sociological context.

>>7165737

>theory
>THEORY
>(not even scientific) THEORY

>>7165899
>I don't understand what "theoru" means
/lit/ - Literature

ITT: Virgins don't know that a lot of women like being raped.

>>7164962
i have that book and never bothered finishing it but maybe now i just will. thanks faggot

>>7165288
>reading comprehension

learn it, imbecile

>>7164962
>taking a story that is literallly entitled Brief Interviews with Hideous Men literally
lol. for a place that is obsessed with satire when it isn't even there (le prince is satire meme), you guys are horrible at picking it up in the most obvious places

>>7165924
what he means is that it is an abuse of the term. it has no basis in science or experimentation, and so it has no explanatory value. its pseudoscience. anyway, the irony I was pointing out is that men are no less 'objectified' than women when they are painted as potential rapists by feminists or when they are treated as economic objects in a capitalist system

bump

>>7164962
>Basically it states that women, while theoretically feminist, still have fundamentally anti-feminist needs.


yes because feminism is the apology of the femininity. the femininity is nothing but having the cake and eating it to.it is to win unconditionally
that you want to have pleasures, but pleasures are not free of risk nor charge, so you deport the charge and the risk on your providers, the betas.
thankfully, naturally, the betas are so many that the beta market is wide and liquid. Of course, there are several kinds of betas. and most of the betas remain despicable in the eye of the woman, since they are not able to satisfy her.

>>7164932
Well, that's how it is, and that be how it be. For sure.

>>7164962
Absolutely agreed about women. Damn. He's supposed to be hideous too

>>7164982
>Different power structures involved that have real world context also the woman gives consent by engaging in the fantasy.

Gb2tumblr

>>7164983
Nobody should be allowed to make their own choices, we are a society and we are social animals, and we work together and that is good.

>>7164993
>Woman having rape fantasies justifies real world rape?

No, I rather think rape as an issue is blown way the fuck out of proportion and women have an obsession about it because the female identity is more intrinsically relate to sex than the male

no it's not hypocritical. maybe you should try stop foaming at the mouth whenever you read a word starting with 'fem-'

>‘I am of the opinion that a genre that is written by women, for women, about women, about the female experience, even if that experience is codified and structured within patriarchal, established boundaries, is inherently feminist,’ says Sarah Wendell, co-founder of Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, a US-based website devoted to reviewing romance novels through a critical lens.

wut

It's telling that women, when asked about their problems, always talk about men.

Feminism is just a roundabout way of talking about relationship issues by Marilyn Monroe legbeards.

>>7168386
the reverse is also the case, so you see MRA types only attacking feminism rather than actually caring about the problems men face

Fat, ugly women talking about "rape culture" and reposting Marilyn Monroe quotes *adjusts hornrims* are the female equivalent of Chad-hating *tips fedora* male fans of Ayn Rand.

>>7168409
Agreed. Basically MRA and feminism become refuges for unattractive forever alones of any gender or sex who viscously circle jerk about how bad everything is.

There's a reason attractive, fit and successful people in healthy relationships rarely, if ever, give a fuck about feminism or MR.

>>7168278
the feminist does not want to be free, but to be free of dealing with men from whom she does expect less pleasures than with men she expects more pleasures.

What is it with reddit and orwell terms?

>>7164932
ITT: >>>/r9k/

>>7164962
Just finished reading. E-- is a retard, K-- isn't much better.

But there is an element of truth, there. Women are undoubtedly afflicted with cognitive dissonance.

>>7168507
Orwell informs their entire political apparatus; it's a very scary thing

stellar

>>7168602
If she didn't have a penis it would be Calvin and Hobbes.

>>7168594
It's funny how Animal Farm is 100% real prophetic analogy, but The Little Red Hen is just a fairytale.

>exposing something about female desire

Women are wettest when the man is strongest. This necessarily entails some "overpowering".

How wet a woman is in the moment is, of course, not relevant to anything but that moment.

Bitches can be in denial about their basic nature if they want to. Who really cares what they think?

>>7164982
So a woman is allowed to desire to be treated like an object, SHE WANTS THIS, but a man is NOT ALLOWED TO WANT to treat a woman like an object, even though both fantasies will only be fulfilled between consenting partners (except in the case of sociopaths, who are the only people that commit rape)

>>7168650
P much I love treating women like objects.

It's not that feminism is wrong it's that it takes over too much time and energy away from more interesting things (such as literally anything else)

>>7165002
>>7165002
>the article is pretty dull though.
these types of things would typically be super dull, except your used to reading about feminism in sensationalist and inflammatory language no matter where you go that usually inspires rage; when the writer is writing in realistic terms, gender relations are fucking boring

Also we don't discuss romance novels here ever because they're not literature, yet feminism is involved so guaranteed replies.
You people have to realize that the insufferable cunt proponents of this movement are crashing and burning with their own retardation and the fact none of them will ever have any real world power with their liberal arts degrees. Stop worrying, stop paying attention to this trash, I guarantee it's making you dumber.
black lesbian btw

>>7165485
>homosexual
>mental illness

You clearly don't care for your roots. Homosexuality is a noble pursuit for those uninterested with being bogged down by women. The most authentic relationships are forged in homoerotic fire.

>>7168681
>black lesbian btw