/lit/ - Literature

>>7038206
>Homer, Descartes and Dante.
>gay
What?

>>7038206
I hope you are not getting in debt for your education cuz you are getting scammed

>>7038206
The first part of you post is about historical people being gay. The second part of your post is about how homosexuality is an invention of the ninteenth century. This is contradictory.

>>7038206
except Socrates, Plato and Aristotle knew homos were degenerate

also
>Homer
we dont even know anything about him
>Descartes
didnt he have a daughter though
>Dante
lel

How could you possibly know anything about Homer's sexuality, given that afaik it's still debated whether he actually existed?

Some people prefer not to fuck men or children.
If you're gay, fine, and yes many major historical figures were gay, like da Vinci.
But don't revise the entirety of history to be about open faggotry #bornthisway bullshit. The majority of historical cultures were and are homophobic. Revisionists need to stop.

>>7038216
essence and existence are distinct anon, duh

>>7038212
This

>>7038215
>except Socrates, Plato and Aristotle knew homos were degenerate
Aristoteles advocated pederasty, so hold your horses with the d-word

Alright, maybe Homer was gay 'cause ancient Greeks sure loved boipussy

But how the fuck would Descarted, a guy that was very Catholic, and Dante, a guy that dedicated a whole book to a girl that friendzoned him, be gay?

who gives a heck
darn

>>7038222
relax trips man

The answer is tribalism.

The purpose of sexual taboos is to direct precious procreative energy toward conceiving and raising children in a stable framework.

Lifestyles that engage in nonprocreative sex or sex that results in abandoned nuisance children is bad.

Likewise, killing useful human capital is bad.

All these traditions come from a position of "people = valuable, more high quality people = good and necessary to sustain tribe."

So, they are perfectly sensible from a tribal perspective and, indeed, the reason certain tribes have survived and prospered for so long.

>>7038230
>But how the fuck would Descarted, a guy that was very Catholic
>Catholic

how could he not be gay? catholicism is the gayest shit since classical antiquity

>>7038226
he really didnt

>>7038216
The people who debate Homer's existence are the same who deate Shakespeare - they're contrarian conspiracy theories with big ego's.
We know there was a poet or poets, sometimes referred to as blind, who has/have become renowned for their rendition of Greek Epics. Debating whether that person 'actually existed' is retarded, you can't prove their existence objectively any more than you can Adam and Eve.

>>7038240
>look mom! i did it again!
here's your reply

>>7038243
Then how can you asign them a sexuality?

>>7038248
wait you seriously aren't aware how fucking gay catholicism is? they kept the ancient's love for "boipussy" alive for 2000 years!

>>7038214
As I said, sit down and listen. It's a nice thing to do sometimes, you know.
"Gay" is a pop term used to describe those who are attracted to people of same sex. Everybody is gay because we are all attracted to same sex people in some degree.

>>7038261
hahaha i love b8, keep it going!

>>7038261
it was only after jew power was ascendant during the 20th century that people started complaining about "being molested" but do you really think this shit just started at the same time sjw shit started? no it was always happening since ancient rome, but only when the social justice jews took over the scene that people started suing the church and trying to throw priests in prison etc.

>>7038273
in denial much? did a priest put it in ur butt?

>>7038274
>Those dirty jews telling those bastards rapees they can actually sue their rapists
>damn you jeeeews for bringing degeneracy upon us!

>>7038226
>Aristoteles advocated pederasty

I don't think you understand Greek culture or what mentorship actually was in ancient Greece.

>>7038206
>>7038264
That anon was right, you contradicted yourself. If 'straight' and 'gay' are terms that spring from the invention of thinkers in the eighteenth century and therefore it's wrong to apply the term straight backwards to historical figures, then by the same logic it's also wrong to apply the term gay backwards to historical figures.

They might have engaged in buttsex, but without the straight/gay paradigm coined in 1860 you can't say Homer was gay anymore than you can say Homer was straight.

Unless you have no interest in being logically consistent, which as an arts student might be true.

>>7038243
>you can't prove their existence objectively any more than you can Adam and Eve.
So you agree their actual existence is doubtful?

>>7038206
>2015
>still believing Homer was a man

>>7038257
I didn't, but pedastery as an element of Greek culture is undeniable.
However I do agree that Homer's supposed sexuality is irrelevant, as the works attributed him are born of zeitgeist and not his own psyche.

>>7038281
ohoho you sure are getting em mad XD

>>7038238
Naturalist fallacy. Also, why penguins are not dead if they are free of sexual repression?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_and_Silo

>>7038306
>pedastery as an element of Greek culture is undeniable.
Socrates hated his own culture though

>>7038206
Hey guys, I found some more of OP's serious academic research!

>>7038297
I agree the idea of their existance has no value; Homer and others exist only as their attributed works and the cultural effects of those works.
The concept of Shakespeare as a writer, literary figure, and playwright has been strongly upheld by the popularity, relevancy, and scholastic depth of his text. To argue whether or not the man existed is ultimately pointless.

>>7038318
>Socrates hated his own culture
Socrates sought at every opportunity to improve the culture he lived under. To say the man maligned his people or society is to ignore the core of Socrates' own ambition.

>>7038312
i wasn't trying to "get him mad" i just mentioned that catholicism has always been a heavily homoerotic tradition and then suddenly some random kid flips his shit and gets all uptight about it, which seems "unusual"

>not reading with a new critical lens

>>7038330
he hated the attitudes of his own culture, i meant to say

he was against the sexual relationship between student and teacher

>>7038296
You just didn't get it, study more about sexuality and you will understand my point. Start with History of Sexuality.

"Gays" don't exist, they are all humans, sexual beings, just like you and me. Christianism created the term to exclude people who are free of the ordinary social rules.
When my teacher used the word "gay" it was an irony. He actually said that those writers were smart enough to be sexually free, which is described as "gay".

I honestly don't know how to be more clear than that.

>>7038324
>To argue whether or not the man existed is ultimately pointless.
Consider this: Most ancient philosophic writings only remain to us only as either fragmants, or citations and commentaries in younger written texts. Being able to attribute a complete or at least exact bibliography and contents to a certain author is important in order to put what he wrote into historical context.

If, for example, Aristoteles refers to Pherecydes of Syros to expound his arguments, we want to know exactly what Pherecydes said or wrote to fully understand what Aristoteles meant. That is why being able to tell whether an author actually existed, or whether 'his' writings were maybe later attributed to a fictitious person is relevent from a scientific point of view.

>>7038355
we arent sexual beings though, we're rational beings.

>Christianism created the term
no they didnt. the word Gay is a modern invention

>>7038355
Is this another one of those "nothing means anything, words refer to nothing, blur all categories together until everything is meaningless" type pomo posts? Empty, pseudo-intellectual garbage.

We have Plato, Oscar Wilde, and some say Isaac Newton.

Why did she mention Homer, Descartes, and Dante? We know nothing about Homer, we know Descartes was attracted towards women, and we know Dante had a wife and kids.

>>7038355
More than one person has agreed that you've made an error. It's not other peoples responsibility to do 'more research' in order to help them understand you if you're communicating poorly.

>>7038355
>History of Sexuality
>Christianism created the term to exclude people who are free of the ordinary social rules.

read it again, science created "gays", christianity had no gays they only had "sins", you might be a sodomite, but then you repent that sin and move on...only science tagged people for life permanently as "gay"

>>7038384
>Plato
leave poor pluto alone, he hated sex in general

>>7038384
Wilde existed after the binary was defined, so he doesn't fit the example.

>>7038222
>major historical figures were gay, like da Vinci
There is no proof of that, just contemporary accusations that went unconvicted.

>>7038419
who cares about him, the guy was just a painter, not a serious intellectual

>>7038384
>Isaac Newton.
>implying he wasn't asexual
My sexual identity has been repressed for long enough! I'm going to start my own field of research defining historical figures by their asexuality! With blackjack, and hookers!

...Actually forget the hookers.

>>7038427
>intricate study of the human body in an age that was all about going back to the real world and rationally groping and modifying it
>not an intellectual

>>7038384
Newton was a permasperg who literally poked his eyes with needles for science

>>7038427
"He who loves practice without theory is like the sailor who boards ship without a rudder and compass and never knows where he may cast."

>>7038432
>intricate study of the human body
yeah, that's what i said, painting
>in an age that was all about going back to the real world and rationally groping and modifying it
yeah, right, because drawing helicopters and reading Roman stories is going back to the real world.
Modern science started with Descartes picking up what the Middle Ages left

>>7038206
>Honestly, why some people still have this kind of homophobic worldview?
Capitalism. Rightism.

>>7038441
ooooh so deep bro, proved me wrong

>>7038450
Modern science started with Tycho Brahe you dip.

>>7038455
>>Honestly, why some people still have this kind of homophobic worldview?
>Capitalism. Rightism.

Are you retarded? Gay rights have vastly expanded under capitalism to levels never even seen in the ancient world. The most valuable company on the planet and leading producer of consumer technology is run by an openly gay man. You fucking marx-tards need to get your head out of your ass

>>7038456
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."

>>7038230

>Dante, a guy that dedicated a whole book to a girl that friendzoned him

He also wrote a epic about his adventures with another man, showing the "gay" spectrum of his sexuality.

>>7038206
>Homer, Descartes and Dante
>gay
[citation needed]

>>7038222
>But don't revise the entirety of history to be about open faggotry #bornthisway bullshit
Have you fucking read the OP, you mongol?

I think its more telling that the LGBT community feels the need to paint everything in that light with dubious evidence.

>>7038264
>Everybody is gay because we are all attracted to same sex people in some degree.

>>7038499
>Today at my university some people felt shocked when our teacher mentioned that some canon writers were gay, such as Homer, Descartes and Dante.

literally the first line

>>7038479
yes anon, we already know he was an artist

>>7038577
"All our knowledge has its origins in our perceptions."

>>7038360
Except that's not entirely the case. Philosophy is inherently interpretive; I don't think any serious intellectual has ever made the claim towards objectivity in thought. Except perhaps Aristotle, who was kind of overdoing it.
Knowing exactly what Pherecydes wrote is not the end-all-be-all of understanding Aristotle. If we can find works attributed to Pherecydes we may reach different - not objectively truer or better - conclusions about Aristotles works.

Similarly, Shakespeare's body of work has been variously interpreted with ranging levels of context and study throughout the world since his own time; arguably the most valuable readings of his work are anachronistic to the values he intended to express.

>>7038614
"Nothing is in the intellect that was not first in the senses"

>>7038626
"Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art."

this is what happens when strict social definitions are not rigidly enforced. You end up with this faggotry

>>7038206
>some canon writers were gay, such as Homer, Descartes and Dante.

Nope Nope Nope

Wonderful bait OP. Shame this board is too stupid to not get sucked in.

Are you fucking retarded?
If you were a faggot in ancient Greece you banned from the temples, fuck off.

>>7038313
>prison gay penguins
Okay? The point is that homo will carry a stigma because parents and children are valuable to a community, and homosexuality fails the categorical imperative.

Gay pride is equally disgusting. What are they having pride in? Dicking each others' buttholes? They're not shouldering any burdens or mastering any craft. Disgusting.

I can forgive great homo artists and warriors because they make some other contribution, but homo as a characteristic in itself is neutral or negative.

>>7038206
>Today at my university some people felt shocked when our teacher mentioned that some canon writers were gay, such as Homer, Descartes and Dante.
they were shocked because only your teacher cares about sex

your teacher is probably a homo to mention this at the very beginning. And you are likely to follow his path.

>>7038509
but people aren't straight until proven gay. If we start with zero knowledge of a figure's sexual preferences, they could fall into any number of categories.

>>7038877
>a figure's sexual preferences
the question is why do you care of a figure's sexual preferences

>>7038877
Occam's razor would argue that point.
Since the biological imperative of Humans is heterosexual reproduction, and because the natural state of a human body is hornonally geared towards reproduction, we can say with 0 assumption that an average individual would be straight.
We must make assumptions to the psychological or biological state of an individual in order to label them as homosexual/bisexual/etc. Thus this conclusion is removed by the razor.

>>7038934
why do you care about their family, their politics or their childhood?

>>7038945
people are complex though. "Full" heterosexuality is much more rate than biology would lead you to believe

>>7038240
wear off that smelling fedora and try again

>>7038993
>"Full" heterosexuality is much more rate than biology would lead you to believe
Source: your ass
Do not come on here preaching sexual fluidity but then claiming that people cannot be securely or fully heterosexual you self-contradicting retard.
Your statement does not even hold up against Occam's razor anyway; assuming heterosexuality as the norm is still the most straightforward option.
Do you actually have a valid thought or are you going to keep spinning in circles?

>>7039021
muh Kinesy scale

>>7039021
didn't say people can't be securely hetero you insecure retard. And apparently you don't understand Occam's razor.

>>7038226
Honestly not recalling anything in Aristotle advocating pederasty (I know he discusses it with respect to Cretan customs in the Politics, but that's it).

Either which way, the former two definitely held the sexual forms of it to be base.

Descartes said you can't do philosophy until later in life because pussy dominates a young mans mind

>>7038206
Dante wasn't gay. Either your lecturer is an idiot or you misunderstood him.

>>7039382
Descartes also thought the soul was located in the pituitary gland.

>>7039435
He was such a fucking boss

>>7039318
>the former two definitely held the sexual forms of it to be base.
eh, they really didnt

>>7039634
Descartes also liked to kick dogs and then play his violin for them, because he's a fucking boss like that

>>7039017
come on bro everyone can tell catholics are a bunch of homos ur not fooling anyone with this over the top phoney homophobia

>>7038206
>Dante
>gay
wrote several books about his waifu

>>7040249
Yes they did.

>>7040998

>Descartes
tip top lel


if you don't want posterity to accuse you of being a faggot you have to bugger some women, lads.
sorry but them the rules

>>7039021
>assuming heterosexuality as the norm is still the most straightforward option.
Haha. That's funny.
>1 in 2 young british people say they are not 100% heterosexual
>https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/08/16/half-young-not-heterosexual/

>A third of young Americans say they aren't 100% heterosexual
>https://today.yougov.com/news/2015/08/20/third-young-americans-exclusively-heterosexual/

>people are straight guise
>except now that catholicism is dying
>and young people grow up feeling safe in expressing their sexuality
>about half of them say,well I'm kinda into pussy and dick
>people are inherently straight we swear
>it's just natural :^)

>>7041238
They all have mental illness though

>>7040249
Uh, they did. Check your Symposium and Phaedrus again.

>>7041238
>heterosexuality
>not the norm

oh give me a break with this shit you mook

>>7041238
and yet bisexuality is still often maligned amongst both straight and gay communities

I like pretty much everyone's private parts and sex is rad but I tell almost nobody because I just don't want to deal with the "bisexuality isn't real, you're just a whore" thing

Not that I'm not kind of a whore, it's just annoying

>>7041246
On what grounds is it a mental illness other than your personal aesthetic disgust (which could itself be termed a mental illness by your ideological opponents)?

Wait, you people are seriously replying to OP?

>>7040902
I love this comic

>>7041261
Kinsey's report says that only about 10% of the male population is exclusively heterosexual, actually

Further research conducted after concerns about Kinsey's sample group actually brought that figure down to 9.9% of the population

so uh, actually guy, you are the minority

>>7041287
>heterosexual
>minority

oh my lawd when will this faggot age end

>>7041294
the faggot age has just begun, faggot

>>7041273
You're probably a mentally handicapped fag so you don't even know what mental wealth is. Enjoy your promiscuity

>>7041264
>and yet bisexuality is still often maligned amongst both straight and gay communities
yep, and that is one of the greatest shames of the LGBT community. Some straight people can be pretty...dense. It's humiliating and awful that in some ways the LGBT community is alike to them by rejecting others because of their sexuality.

But on the other hand, don't you think you have an obligation to other bisexuals, and the community itself to try to teach others acceptance? To come out?
The LGBT movement would be still in the 70's if they didn't make an effort to teach others to accept them. Visibility helped gays a great deal, it might help bisexuals too. And there is a lot more of you than gays, so it should be somewhat easier. Hiding does not help. Just food for thought.

>>7041287
>Kinsey's TOTALLY objective figures and reports
Lel

>>7038304
>2015
>still believing Homer was a white

>>7041315
To a certain degree, sure. I was more open about it back in high school. My friends know. Beyond that, I don't really want to don the identity badge. Especially since right now I'm at an exceptionally 'liberal', weird ass college--you've probably heard of it, Matt Groening went there. This school is so steeped in tumblr-esque identity politics to a degree that it's downright ridiculous. It is, for lack of a better term, "Tumblr: Academia Edition". Honestly, being vocal about my not-all-that-interesting sexuality would most likely be viewed as an attempt to be anything but a cis, white, heterosexual male

Jokes on them, I'll suck like 40 cocks in a row in my off time

>>7041348
aaww man. you are missing out on some prime trolling material. You could do like those things where you act like all macho and overly bro, or even just be yourself - and when people look down on you or start spewing misandric crap, you could gasp and reach for your heart, as if they truly offended you. Cue a small teardrop in the left eye.

With trembling voice tell them that you were raised by homophobic parents and that they beat you. That your identity was formed by the trauma, but that you are - act like it's almost impossible to say out loud... a bisexual. Then go on the offensive and tell them what pieces of shits they really are for judging you based on looks and gender alone - make sure to compare them to racists or nazis (if they are SJW's it's totally fair). Then storm off. Or allow them to soothe and comfort you, it might even get you laid.
Have some imagination!

>>7041395
This post is actually inspirational, dogg. I'm going to have to do this now. It's time to put by bisexual hat into the victim culture identity politics race

>>7041253
nuh uh, where?

>>7042285
I already told you where.

>Check your Symposium and Phaedrus again.

> [Insert author] had kids and wife
> therefore he could never be gay

Are you retarded people ?

>>7042745
>read x and you'll know youre wrong
oh ok ;)

>>7038212
Dante spent the majority of his life obsessing over one single girl. If anything, he was a beta, not a gayboi.

>>7042745
How the fuck does Symposium advocate pederasty beyond the most literal of readings?

>>7043009
>there is no evidence for someone being gay
>"oh he hid it so well guyz, srsly"
are you?

>>7043033
ever seen a gayboi obsess about madonna or lady gaga or whatever? that's just what they do

>>7043047
they put their obsession for their mother onto another unobtainable woman which leaves them no choice but to take it up the butt for sexual releases

>>7038215
Lawl, Socrates still wanted that sweet Charmides. Hes sweating of lust in the dialog.

>>7041287
This is the most bullshit thing I've ever read on this board, which is impressive considering the amount of bullshit pseudo-intellectual ramblings I've seen. There's so many things wrong with this post it would be simpler to list the things that are right about it:

>It uses the apostrophe correctly.
>It has consistent numeration.
>Kinsey was a real person who did a real study on the prevalence of homosexuality.

And that's it. Everything else is varying degrees of wrong.

>>7043020
Oh, so the two Platonic dialogues that focus on the subjects of love and pederasty are just random obscure books tossed out to seem superior, instead of the sources most likely to inform on the subject being discussed?

Maybe hold off on talking about Socrates and Plato until you've actually bothered to read Plato.

>>7043039
I'm arguing that it doesn't, or at least it doesn't with respect to sexual pederasty.

>>7043079
:P So Socrates claims to the person he's narrating the dialogue to; the joke being that if it were true at all, Socrates exercises self-control nonetheless, while Charmides pretty notably doesn't, being hung over from drinking the night before. Alcibiades in the Symposium makes a big point though of saying that Socrates' attraction to people is a ruse, and that he really couldn't care less about their bodies.

>>7043041

You can't even read or see the point properly.
Retarded heterosexuals funnily circlerjerking on homosexuality (and here circlerjerking about the orientation of authors without taking into account the historical context for some of them - having a wife and kids was the best way to disprove they were inverts) are funny to read. Funny also reading those retards even more retarded than OP screaming out revisionism every time when someone points out that a quite great chunk of the great personalities of history, art or literature weren't the pussylovers like themselves and comprising a great part of /lit/.
And yes, most of them hid it so well because that was something that needed to be hidden, fucktard.


Though I agree that people would show some perplexity when someone says that Descartes and Dante were gays. Homer was a greek, so that particular denomination is inacurrate to describe that part of the Ancient Greek culture.

>>7038206

> preserving the social prohibitions against sodomy and other sexual debaucheries

So it did not abandon Christianity as people being jelly and edgy about sodomy comes direct from Christian views on the question.

>>7043141
>two Platonic dialogues that focus on the subjects of love

You know love just mean somebody you care about a lot.... right??

When he wrote that an army full of men who love each other would be the best, he mean care for one another, instead of let's say mercenaries all in it for personal gain disregarding their teammate.

What you guys are trying to pass as gay pedophily was just very boring mentorship. The women did the same with girls.

AND YOU GUYS GET IN DEBT TO BE FED THAT BULLSHIT HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>7043268

Let's assume homosexuality just because

Evidence helps in these kinds of discussions

>>7043319
>You know love just mean somebody you care about a lot.... right??

D...did you even read what I actually said? Or note that I was responding to someone?

Either way, love (Eros) means desire, and was associated with sexual desire in particular to the Greeks.

>When he wrote that an army full of men who love each other would be the best, he mean care for one another

That's Phaedrus who says that in the Symposium, right? Which is significant, because while Socrates *is* arguing for the more moderate sort of love you point to, *Phaedrus is not, and is totally talking about fuckbros*.

>>7043391
>Either way, love (Eros) means desire
greak work of translation we have here
:0

>>7043080
>This is the most bullshit thing I've ever read on this board

read more

>>7038367
/thread

>>7038355
>muh evil church fallacy
>muh words mean nothing
>muh modern revisionism is the one truth

>>7038406
bait harder

>>7038877
Yes, and we should assume a person from a country that's 99.9% white could be a nigger too.

>>7044844
Or just, y'know.

Dispesnse with assumptions because they aren't actually useful when dealing with individuals?

>>7044850
Okay, I'll start. I'm picturing you as a gigantic faggot.

Am I progressive now?