/lit/ - Literature

>>6989557
lel dumb americunts

Haven't people agreed on a certain form of English being correct? A certain set of rules that is used for formal and academic discussion in the language?

>doesn't see the glory in replacing all 'str's with 'skr's
finna grap my skrap boi

>>6989584
Yes, there is a certain kind of English that is formal and proper. This is why we can say that somebody who misuses a double negative in a paper is incorrect- it doesn't follow the grammatical rules.

We can judge people for speaking in 'AAVE', as AAVE is not taught in school and therefor if somebody speaks in a heavy AAVE accent we can assume they are uneducated.

>>6989557

"Well our public education system has obviously failed miserably but we can get away with it by taking the resulting 'dialect' seriously"

Please no.

>>6989610
If it is one's habit to speak a certain way outside of school, amongst certain people, then you can attend as much school as anyone else and still have the most ingrained and habitual dialect be something other than what you are taught at said school.

>dat turkic/altaic shitposting in comments

I don't have strong feelings about it, I don't live in the US so my exposure to it is mostly through music and the internet. Like other English dialects such as Jamaican English or Scottish English I enjoy it as something different from my own dialect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKPLoXtg0eA

I haven't read extensively in African American lit so I've mostly come across it in Faulkner, where it's accompanied by white Southern dialects anyway.

>>6989611
you didn't even watch the video did you

>>6989708

n-no

>this blatant racism
/lit/ isn't so different from /pol/, huh.

>>6989557
I was a linguistics student, and this is the sort of stuff you learn on day one. Not about black English specifically, but about telling incoming students that no, other dialects than your own aren't 'wrong' or 'illogical,' and that linguistics studies the internal logic of linguistic systems themselves, and not prescriptive rules about how people ought to, or are taught to, talk.

The claim that standard/white English has no way of encoding a habitual aspect, or that it's difficult to translate, is wrong, though. It just uses the simple present, so 'he be working' is roughly 'he works.'

>>6989557

>there is no "right" way to speak.
>there is no "right" way to do math.
> there is no "right" way to govern.
XD

>>6989769
This is true though. There are many right ways to do things.

>>6989557
Read DFW's essay related to this.
Authority and American Usage

>>6989781
A vernacular is superior if it is more useful. How do we judge use? The number of people you can speak to. Your ability to read things.

>>6989769
as if those are at all comparable.
>>6989761
the guy making this videos is some teenage 'linguists enthusiast' or some shit. all his videos are entry level.

>>6989789
Relativity in all its forms is nonsense.

>>6989805
So, do you think there's only one correct language? Which is it, if any?

If not, then why can there be only one correct dialect? What is even the standard of correctness that you would use?

>>6989805
(not true, by the way)

>>6989814
The correct language for an individual person is the language that best enables that person to accomplish his goals. Generally that will be a language spoken by the largest number of people close to him, or important people, or something.

The correct language for a civilization would be the one best able to communicate the ideas important to that civilization. Best able to facilitate discourse. Best able to mirror the world as it is, and to avoid confusion.

This isn't rocket science.

unga bunga where da white wimmin at fam

>>6989769
It's not inherently right, but a standard language offers pretty obvious advantages to society. Local vernaculars can obviously still exist, but normalizing a dialect that is spoken by less than 10% of the population for the sake of not feeling racist seems counterproductive to me.

>>6989829
>normalizing a dialect
that's not what the op video was doing

>>6989829
I'm using the word "right" as I think most people do, as meaning "useful." To build a bridge there is a "right" way to math. To communicate there is a "right" dialect/language.

>>6989823
>The correct language for a civilization would be the one best able to communicate the ideas important to that civilization. Best able to facilitate discourse. Best able to mirror the world as it is, and to avoid confusion.

How does white English do these things better than black English?

>>6989839
Never implied that it was, but I have personally met people who hold that opinion. I just wanted to mention it.

>>6989848
Never said it did. The video was all like "we somehow STILL don't realize that just because someone speaks differently they aren't speaking WORSE."
I was objecting to muh relativity. I never said which option is better.

>>6989862
So you're saying if there are two different ways of speaking, one of them has to be worse? Because if that's not what you mean, then I don't see what objection you could have to his statement.

I aso dont know what you mean by one language being better than another at mirroring the world. Languages are pretty similar in expressive power, and it seems to presuppose a dubious metaphysics about the relationship between language & reality

>>6989867
Yes, the chances that any two language or dialects are exactly as competent as one another is extraordinarily small.

The reason most languages are pretty good at mirroring the world is because they evolved to be useful. Why would someone speak a language that isn't useful? That doesn't mean that someone couldn't put in some serious hours and figure out which one is best.
Everything is a continuum.

>>6989867
>Languages are pretty similar in expressive power

"I din du nuffin"

So did he do something or not? It's a double negation. That's pretty confusing.

>>6989872
But usefulness is always relative to a goal. Useful for what?

>>6989880
He didn't do anything.

How come when Irish speak unintelligibly we look in awe and respect? They're ten fucking times worse, the Scots too.

I can understand them but don't try and tell me that's Standard English, what about in India?

>>6989885
>How come when Irish speak unintelligibly we look in awe and respect?

>>6989884
you serious mate? If you can't answer that for yourself, based on what I said, I'm not gonna bother.

>>6989880
It's just negative concord.

http://microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/negative-concord

>>6989889
Irishman says two words in LA and legs start opening and a few men will buy him some drinks.

You can't deny this.

>>6989848
If you speak "white" normal English evey dialect will understand you. But if you speak Ebonics only other AAVE speakers will understand you

>>6989896
Yeah, because we look at them as exotic animals who speak with a cartoonish voice. It has nothing to do with respect.

>>6989906
Sure, but that has to do with the position of prestige the language has, not with the fact that the language itself is somehow superior, which is what lots of people seem to think.

>>6989906
Are you stupid?

>>6989880
>That's pretty confusing.
to you. many languages do this. watch the video.

>>6989918
Why would I watch a video a out niggers? I have to write my thesis.

>>6989872
>the chances that any two language or dialects are exactly as competent as one another is extraordinarily small.
how the hell you know this.
the best one could devise would be a partial order, probably.

>>6989914
Languages were created so that people could understand each other.
Incredibly simplistic definition, yes, but it's true.
The fact that standard English is far more understandable means it's superior

>>6989920
>Why would I watch a video a out niggers?
u wot mate

>>6989931
*about

>>6989930
Languages weren't "created" though you fucking retard, they're organic entities with institutions regulating them after the fact that they become the dominant form of communication and aspects of cultures.

I'm actually against catering to dialects and accents and agree in teaching Standard English in all North American schools, but I'm amazed that you think some people are bad or lesser for speaking different, grow the fuck up.

>I know the answer is that AAVE is a legitimate dialect, but my Internet pals won't think I'm cool if I say so!

/lit/ everybody. This place really has gone to shit.

>>6989936
you have the time to try to be a little more knowledgeable about the world in which you live.

>>6989947
I bet you're the same kind of faggot who thinks that all cultures are equal

>>6989951
a few weeks bud. oh god if it doesn't get better.

>>6989951
Of course it is, it's just shit tier

>>6989952
I am very interested in the world I live in. But niggers are at the back of the bus when it comes to things I care about.

>>6989958
You'd be right, in a sense. Have a nice evening.

>>6989930
There are multiple standard Englishes based on region. I think you're overestimating the problems in understanding caused by differences between English dialects. It's not like multilingual societies like China where native speakers of different languages have to use Mandarin as a second language to communicate with each other.

>>6989969
fair enough.
their dialect is the topic of this thread, however, so you coming in here saying
>WELL I DON'T FREAKING CARE MAN
is just shitposting.

>>6989976
Indeed. I just wanted to come and see libs squeal like worms defending their pet apes.

>>6989983
Oh man you're pretty good at this, I'll keep you company till your mom comes home with chicken nuggets.

>>6989983
>squeal like worms
hrm?

>>6989991
*tendies

>>6990001
Racists people are usually poor so I was presuming she was going the cheaper route. My apologies.

>>6990030
How am I racist? Just because I don't care about niggers doesn't mean I hate them or think they are inferior.

>>6990035
You're right.

Racial realist*

>>6990042
What's a racial realist?

>>6990050

A racial realist is hating:

NIGGER PORCH MONKEY COON SPOOKS BOOTLIP WELFARE COLLECTING VIOLENT GHETTO APE CHARLIES GORILLA LOUD OBNOXIOUS LOUD MUSIC PLAYING SPEARCHUCKING SHITSKINED CUCK ANTI-WHITE LAZY BLUEGUMS COTTON PICKING NIGGER-FAGGOTS.

>2015
>people still not understanding that a single "correct" english is silly

standard dialect is still a dialect like any other fam

Swedes, French, Germans, and pretty much everyone with an education from around the world is taught English in school. The English they are taught is standard English, not AAVE. If you speak standard English, there's a better chance that you'll be understood than if you speak AAVE, as everybody is taught standard and only African Americans speak AAVE. Also, AAVE speakers can understand standard English- standard English speakers often have a hard time understanding AAVE.

So standard English is superior because people from all cultures who are taught English are taught standard and AAVE speakers also usually understanding standard English- therefor, you're most likely to be understood if you speak standard English.

>>6989584
Standard American English is the generally accepted academic form.

Remember how Creole is a thing?

>>6989896
and a nigger goes to Sweden and ooga boogas a bit and the same thing happens

Linguistically, it is a dialect with its own rules that are conformed to by its users. It isn't grammarical anarchy, it's just a different dialect of speaking.

I mean, it isn't as if they can't speak English. It's just the dialect that they were brought up with.
>I ain't got no money
>I haven't got any money
Both semantically the same.
>He be working
>He is working
Semantically the same
Users of AAVE all conform to the same rules. It isn't random. It is merely a dialect

I see nothing wrong with OP's pic

>>6991399
>Standard American English
doesn't exist

>>6991663
actually "He be working" and "He is working" have fairly distinct connotations

>>6991688
>Where is john? Oh, he be working
>Where is john? Oh, he is working
I don't understand what you mean.

>>6991697
'He be working' can also mean that he has a job.

>>6991705
As could 'he is working'...

>Has John recovered?
>Well, he is working

It's all context

>>6991722
Ah, I never thought of that.

People that can't understand southern accents or black slang are usually retards, and most blacks can switch from slang to standard English when necessary.

I really am appalled that they're teaching black vernacular in schools because THAT WILL CREATE MORE PROBLEMS. But it's just so fucking /pol/ in here if people think languages and dialects are better or worse rather than just circumstantial.

Don't care about black dialects because there are so many words made up by different gangs that the logical relationship between words and their meanings gets quickly lost. And because they don't evolve linguistically to support themselves past catchy phrases.

>>6991697
"Be" in aave is habitual most of the time. When talking about right now, "he working" would be more fit.

>>6991731
>I really am appalled that they're teaching black vernacular in schools
Where are they doing that?

>>6991697
>>6991722
'He be working' is habitual, like 'he works.'

'He working' is progressive, like 'he is working.'

>>6991860
Interesting experiment about the habitual be: black (aave speaking) and white children were both shown a picture of elmo eating cookies, with cookie monster standing at the side. When asked "who is eating cookies" both answered elmo, ofcourse. But when asked "who be eating cookies", white children answered elmo again, and the black children answerd cookie monster.
This shows that aave has grammatical/semantical nuances that standard english lacks.

>>6991860
>>6991865
Hmm. Interesting. I did not know this. I always assumed that both 'he is working' and 'he be working' could be used both habitually and progressively.

>>6989557
babbys first prescriptrivism

>The way Southern whites talk show they're clearly STUPID
>The way blacks talk is A NEW LANGUAGE

>>6989557
i thought barbarian was supposed to be from latin and refer to foreigners, as they had beards?

is there any consensus on this?

>>6989557
Read the Unfolding of Language

>>6991978

>>6992029
not that hard mate
http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=barbarian&allowed_in_frame=0

dis heah pisses me off, sho nuff

Will we UNcensor Uncle Remus folktales now? Or are they still offensive, Brer Fox?

Do they have gender neutral terms? That s/he her/him thing?

I am getting too old for this place. Too damn old.

>>6989611
it's a group effort; people from both sides actively disclude and shame one another. one of the two sides just happens to be more often in possession of wealth and have influence in the school systems, so the other gets left out

>>6989761
descriptive, yes, but one must admit that the complexity and precision of a language directly influences the complexity and precision of the thought processes of the host, as those thoughts are, at least partially, encoded in them.

speakers of "slang" dialects, with omissions, decreased vocabulary, and conflated word usage (i.e. he is running, and i is running) end up with simplified, cyclical, imprecise thoughts and self-expression.

>>6992029
I heard it was derived from the ancient Greek "Barbaroi", which is essentially anybody not Greek.

Which is itself probably derived from a nonsense word used to make fun of the way foreigners speak.

Ex - "So I was chillin' with my homeboy Polydeukes, when these Lydians rock up, and they're all like 'BarbarBARbarbar BarbarbarBar' And we're like 'Haha, stupid barbaroi with their animal noises'." Kinda thing.

>>6989761
habitual is just slightly different though

"He be working" describes someone for whom working is a frequent activity. In most English dialects, "he works" describes someone who works with no connotation of frequency

>>6992143
>one must admit that the complexity and precision of a language directly influences the complexity and precision of the thought processes of the host
1. Not true
2. AAVE isn't slang, and it isn't any less complex than most English dialects. It's barely even different except for a few syntactical differences

>>6992143
>Sapir-Whorf

Oh boy

>>6992190
Yeah, it seems in white English there's an ambiguity between a stative reading of 'he works' as 'he is employed' versus a habitual eventive reading as 'he habitually performs a job,' but I don't know whether the black alternative has this ambiguity too.

>>6989785
mandarin confirmed best language

Long story short, an awful lot of black people are low-IQ and INCREDIBLY difficult to teach, so we invent ways to help them succeed where otherwise one could argue that slavery was pretty justifiable.

>>6991663
Confirmed didn't watch the video.

If the American Black was capable of writing a book in actual prose, perhaps you could find someone that actually believes they talk ebonics for any reason other than outright retardation.

>OP
>this entire thread
Im in tears

>>6992255
Sapir-Whorf is true, or do you actually believe Sub-Saharans and Aborigines were able to reason abstractly without even having the concept of a number larger than two in their vocabularies?

>mfw upper middle class white girls from decent families curse like marines and (mis)use black prison slang like 'fuckboy' in daily conversation

>>6992833
There is nothing more righteous than the privileged taking everything from the underprivileged.

>White Southern Accents are dumb
>Black Slang is a new a language!