/lit/ - Literature

>>6839900

literally everyone who's read the book yes

>>6839900
The Province and the Corncob.

>>6839900
Understand that Part 1 is from a metally-handicapped manchild who just doesn't understand time. Benji (it's been forever since I read it so sorry if that's not his name) isn't an idiot though. He still has basic understanding of events and also heightened senses (like knowing his sister had sex by her scent)

Quentin on the other hand is neurotic and obsessed with honor. As his sister who he was close to (and he was having that incestuous urge for her as well) is dishonored, he's breaking down. His mental state literally deteriorates over the course of part two. Just approach it that this is a young man going bonkers and it becomes pretty easy to "get"

>>6840047 This guy knows. When you realize that Caddy is the absent-center of the novel (her "tragedy" ultimately affects and drives the downfall of the Compsons), the story comes together a little more smoothly, including the Quentin chapter. If you observe his basic personality traits and ticks (Time, Honor, His relationhip to Caddy, etc), then his crazy, stream-of-consciousness spiels will make a bit more sense. Also bear in mind that this is a difficult novel, so don't get frustrated. If nothing more, just enjoy Faulkner's art.

P.S. The plot will make a lot more sense after reading part 3, so don't sweat it if a lot of events are fuzzy. Good luck anon!

>>6839900
artfag here to say that the og drawing by kollwitz is superior to altered book cover shite

Probably my biggest literary confession is that I've given up on reading TSATF twice, both during part 2.

>>6840047 thanks yeah it really helped me with part 1 to have that little bit of background about benjy that helped me understand how to approach part 1, i think thats what i needed for part 2

coincidentally just read the first part last night after going into this one completely blind. I didn't even read an overview of this book, so it was pretty jarring at first. but once I understood who the narrator was and why the timelines were all over the place I thought it flowed really nicely.

was just about to start part 2, hopefully the thread is still alive when I finish

>>6840668

Don't feel bad. I think it's the hardest book I've read all the way through. It was worth the slog though. I read it twice, and it didn't get much easier the second time, but I noticed a hell of a lot more. Of course I'd become a much better reader by the time I read it a second time (ten years between readings).

>>6842504
thanks for the encouragement, it was probably 2-4 years between my attempts

I've read As I Lay Dying twice and mostly 'read' Absalom, Absalom for a class. I'd like to reread AA again

Part 2 is definitely the hardest in the book. At the same time, it's my favorite part. It's the most heavily stylized part of the book, and not just due to the maddening stream of consciousness. Quentin's more lucid narration is actually some of my favorite Faulkner prose. He has a way of turning long clauses of words into smoldering fuses.

How does it fit into the overall era of modernism? my (potentially incorrect) understanding of modernism is that it is the reaction to the realisation that technology can't become the "new god" and that it is actually very damaging to us, leading to revolutionary ways of thought, styles of art literature etc. Is the downfall of the Compson family demonstrating this? Or is it more to do with the way the book is written?

>>6843969
I think it has more to do with style in this case. At bottom, TSatF is a historical novel, but faulkner's style, and specifically it's departure from typical narratives, is what make it an example of modernist art.

>>6843969
>my (potentially incorrect) understanding of modernism is that it is the reaction to the realisation that technology can't become the "new god" and that it is actually very damaging to us, leading to revolutionary ways of thought, styles of art literature etc.

Not saying this is particularly wrong, but you're misrepresenting modernism. It's a movement classified by its opposition to literary tradition and norms. It arrived, like most literary movements, out of a combination of historically significant events that paved the way for a drastic change in thought. Initially it was pretty much just, "lets do the opposite of the Victorians".

Shit like Freud, Nietzche, and Jung influenced the arts in a way that placed more emphasis on the self than on nature (a sort of stark contrast to the naturalism that came out of Victorian era lit and Romantics before that). The opposition to technology grew out of globalization, industrialization, and the world wars, but was catalyzed by a shift in academic thought focused on introspection and the human spirit above all else. Even then, technology isn't necessarily seen as directly damaging or damning, but instead shown to be isolating and causes a loneliness that seems to be innate to mankind.

Really the thing to walk away with is to understand that Modernism is much more focused on introspection and themes of isolation, while the disdain for technology is more of a motiff rather than chief theme of the movement (which developed out of the culture shocks of industrialization and the two world wars). The conclusion to most Modernist texts will almost always be thoughts of confusion or hopelesness, as well.

>>6845404
and to clarify, the experimental style of writing and expression exhibited through Modernism isn't so much directed at the "world war" and "technology is evil" aspects of the movement. The experimentation came almost directly from the desire to oppose Victorian tradition.

The Victorian Era was incredibly standardized and experimentation was often considered bad writing, the Victorians were also the same people who led everyone into a desensitized industrial world of war. People recognized, "hey this style of thought led us into a bunch of big fucking mistakes, what's the most radical ways we can oppose this idea of thought?" and then experimental styles of expression began being developed.

Basically the experimentation came from a very deliberate opposition to the Victorian Era. This is something Modernism is known for, it's one the most deliberate literary movements and for one of the first times people were beginning to explicitly distinguish themselves as "modernists" even through the natal stages of the movement.

>>6839900

Everyone comments on how difficult part 1 is simply because it's what hits you first, and a lot of people stop there. However, once you understand the general time line of Benjy's part, using which black person he's with, it's easy to get through. Quentin's part is literal gibberish at times.

>>6839900
nah

>>6843492

Personally I found Absalom, Absalom! significantly more difficult than The Sound and the Fury for the fact that it was meant to make slightly more sense, but be more impenetrable.

>>6843969

It's more about the way the book was written. The fall of the Compson family was meant to demonstrate the collapse of the aristocratic South, and their inability to reconcile their former glory and pride with a post-Civil War world that cared little for that, and in fact actively sought to destroy it.

>>6840602

>>6843969
I think that what "The Sound and Fury" tries to show is that the modern society without tradition (not all of it though) would go degenerate. Look at Dilsy, she is the most simple-minded person in the book, her character isn't as complex as Benjy's or Quentin's is (the son, not the daughter, although she is more complex than Dilsy too). She's also really religious, and as you know, there's more and more atheists or agnostics every day. Still, in the end, she uses her sense of morals and her good nature to try and bring peace and goodness to everyone dear to her, she also puts up with a lot of shit that she gets from some people. She's also a slave, which is another remnant of the older times (other than religion), but she's the only thing that's keeping the Compson family from completely falling apart. She takes care of Benjy, her own children and grandchildren, also of other people, like for example Quentin, the daughter, which should be hated if you rationalize a bit and see what she is doing (fucking like a slut, stealing money etc), but Dilsey thinks with her heart. The book ends with her section, which is the most "omnipotent" in narration and the most clearest of them all, literally anyone could understand it after one read.
These are just my thoughts, I'd gladly love to see other viewpoints, this is my favorite book of all times, and I love discussing about it.

I finished part two today and yeah part two was definitely more difficult. I liked it though I've had panic attacks that caused obsession with things and it really similar to the way Quentin thought.

>>6846730
that makes a lot of sense, and the fact that dilsey's section is so clear perhaps demonstrates this aspect of her character and her (in want of a better word) purity

>>6839900

Hopefully I don't word wall you, but...

I wrote my undergraduate thesis on Quentin Compson (SF, AA!, "That Evening Sun," and "A Justice"). I'm biased, but Quentin is Faulkner's most difficult and rewarding character. Yes, his section is significantly more difficult.

The second section of SF is anomalous for a lot of reasons, most of which have been cataloged in this thread already. I'd just point out a couple of other things. An interesting, albeit slightly reductive, way of thinking about Quentin is in terms of binaries. More specifically, binaries that are diametric.

Consider that time for Quentin is either static, unmoving, continuous present (the motif of twilight falls in line with this), or always-past. The problem is that this dualistic conception of time results in a paradox: Quentin must either exists solely in the present or solely in the past. So his consciousness flits between them. Note that when Quentin gets into a fist fight with Gerald, the action is elided; instead, his fist fight with Dalton Ames stands in for both fights. The past and the present coalesces.

There are numerous other paradoxes such as this one inherent to Quentin's character. In general, they all result in the same sort of mental atrophy.

Just one way of looking at it. Whoever said AA! is more difficult is correct. The prose might be a tad easier, but it's significantly more dense. I think it also has the record for longest published sentence, but I could be wrong.

>>6843969

In general, I think the best way of thinking about literary modernism is to think of it in terms of epistemology (as opposed to postmodernism, which is ontological). Don't remember which critic said that, but it holds true for the most part.

Not all literary modernism is anti-technology, for what it's worth. Even Faulkner has his moments (though Go Down Moses and the trilogy are all distinctly technophobic).

>>6839900

You also might find it interesting that Quentin narrates "That Evening Sun" at age 24, although he dies at age 19 or 20 by most accounts. Also that Benjy isn't in either "That Evening Sun" or "A Justice," although both stories are about the Compsons and he would have been born when they were set. You might chalk it up to Faulkner's alcoholism. You could also point to his quote "Fact and truth have little to do with on another. I prefer the latter." Or something like that.

>>6846730

Faulkner always said that he wanted to write the story from the most objective point of view possible. So he did. And he thought Benjy's section left too many questions unanswered and angles open. So he tried to write it from the most subjective point of view possible. But he felt that Quentin's section was a failure because it placed Caddy on too high a pedestal. So he tried again, but thought Jason's failed to convey the reality of Caddy's daughter accurately. So he wrote Dilsey's from the third person, and felt that that was good enough to publish. Of course, 8 years later, he wrote the Compson appendix, which is essentially the 5th section from a more omniscient point of view. He said he failed with it too. That's why he called SF his most glorious failure.

>>6839900
I found part 2 pretty easy to get through if you have depression

>>6839900

Nice antpic

>>6846730
hoisting your own ideology onto S&F reaaalllyyyy hard

>>6851437
How about you type a better, more elaborate reply? Oh right, this is 4chan.

Why the fuck did Faulkner claim Caddy was the hero of the story when she ruined absolutely eveything because she couldn't not be a slut

>>6853328

Hehehe we once had this debate. The people who defended Caddy ended up claiming that if you see Caddy as unsympathetic, and if you agree with some of Jason's points about her, you're a virgin who hates women.

>>6853328
Source on that? It seems more likely he'd claim Dilsey was the hero.

>>6853483
Le sexual revolution face
Caddy was the villain

>>6853523
This. Dilsey is obviously the only 'hero' in the story.

Literally the entire point of the story is Caddy is the one sibling who doesn't get a POV, everything is focused on her except only through the eyes of her brothers, who are each in turn obsessed with her in their own fucked up ways.

Caddy isn't a hero, she's just sympathetic, each of the brothers are the 'evils' in the book.

>>6853538
Hardly. Benjy was a huge burden but could hardly be considered malicious. Q would have been a great adult if Caddy's slutting around and her Dad's ambivalence didn't fuck him up. Jason was a prick but at least he provided for his family near the end. He was the only one who tried to discipline the bastard. He wouldn't have been the head of the household anyways. Q would have kept him in line.

>>6853566
All that is true, but sincerely, if you come out from the book and conclude that Caddy is the closest thing to an antagonist, I feel like you're projecting your own biases onto Faulkner.

Go read any other Faulkner. Women are sluts often in his works, which yes, sets usually bad things in motion, but they are not ever really portrayed as malicious, only maybe naive. See the girl in Light in August.

TSatF is clearly sympathetic toward Caddy as she is the focus of the entire book, yet doesn't receive a chapter. It's not unintentional, Faulkner didn't just forget to give her POV, it's that way because she is the spook of the book, all problems laid on her, and the idea of her being the antagonist is only heightened if she doesn't get a chapter, 'explain herself', etc.

Benji and Q aren't malicious, not in the same way Jason is. But Benji is obsessed with Caddy, the most innocent of the brothers, but obsessed either way.

Q is the most interesting of the obsessions, because he is neurotic and 'loves' her, but interprets that love as some chivalrous bullshit that means he is responsible for her, she is 'his', and on and on.

And then Jason which is much less nuanced.

The whole point is that these obsessions are laid at the feet of Caddy, completely unfairly. What, is it her responsibility to live up to what her brothers 'need' her to be, for themselves?

>>6853595
>The whole point is that these obsessions are laid at the feet of Caddy, completely unfairly. What, is it her responsibility to live up to what her brothers 'need' her to be, for themselves?

It's called altruism

>>6853634
Jesus christ.

>PLEASE FULFILL MY OBSESSIONS AND COMPULSIONS
>WHAT, YOU DON'T WANT TO?
>YOU WHORE!

No one is altruistic toward Caddy, no one is ready to forgive her, no one is willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

>>6853645
Nothing was expected of her beyond that of a good southern daughter. Her father forgave her. There is no reason to believe her brothers would have somehow ruined her life if she married faithfully.

>>6853667
>if if if if fif if fif if fif iff if fif if fif if

The story is the story as presented. Really convinced me with those hot opinions.

The very fact that her father could forgive her but her brothers couldn't tells you everything you need to know about Faulkner's intent.

>>6853673
Right, the story is as presented. Wherein Caddy is a slut and everything around her unravels.

>>6853680
>reading with the most base level of insight, not even being able to fathom the nuanced relationships in TSatF

Why even read if you take away the dumbest ideals out of a story?

>>6853688
The story is essentially a character study of the brothers using Caddy as a centerpiece and foil. Their various compulsions and idiosyncrasies are the bulk of the novel. None of them are close to perfect and their obsession over Caddy is bizarre.
None of this changes anything I have said. Caddy fucked up the Compsons the most, more than any other character.

>>6853701
Okay, I agree then.

I would just argue that "Caddy fucking up the Compsons" is only due to her brother inability to cope and move on. They could have easily allowed her to drift away, but Q straight up couldn't deal, and then Jason used her for money. She only 'fucked up' the Compsons because the brothers allowed her to remain such a monolith in their minds.

>>6853709
Correct, but really shouldn't have needed to "deal" because Caddy couldn't keep in her fucking pants

>>6840668
damn, part 2 was my favorite and I gave up during 3 because it wasn't as good as the first two sections

>>6852381
Ok.

Faulkner is not a conservative. In Flags in the Dust, S&F and AA he is incredibly critical of the old Southern aristocratic class for their refusal to let go of the past and move into the 20th century.

I am glad you did not charge Caddy with being promiscuous, because she clearly was not. She had a couple boyfriends and sex with one before marriage, which was not at all uncommon in the 1920s. The problem was not the fact that Caddy had premarital sex, the problem was every male's ultraconservative, romantic notions of the unimpeachable, chaste Southern belle. Whether it be Benjy lost in the nostalgic labyrinth of his memories, moaning like a bitch every time something reminds him of Caddy/the past; Quentin being incapable of coping with the notion that he and his sister have grown up and she will get married and his romantic pain of missing Caddy will only be temporary; or Jason's explicit chauvinism as a defense mechanism to hide his love for Caddy and his lust for Quentin2.

The Sound and the Fury is not an indictment of modern liberal values. It is a condemnation of the archaic mindset of the rotting Southern aristocracy.

>>6853730
Go to bed, Jason.

>>6855145
>to hide his love for Caddy and his lust for Quentin2
>his lust for Quentin2
How deluded do you have to be to think this?
>Benjy lost in the nostalgic labyrinth of his memories
He's literally retarded, you can't apply a meaning like that to his section, that's why I never mentioned him in my post.
>Quentin being incapable of coping with the notion that he and his sister have grown up and she will get married and his romantic pain of missing Caddy will only be temporary
>incapable of coping with the notion that he and his sister have grown up
No, he can't cope because he loves Caddy, it's incest.
>and his romantic pain of missing Caddy will only be temporary
He can't cope with the pain being temporary? What the hell?
>The Sound and the Fury is not an indictment of modern liberal values
I never said it was, I said how the book proposes liberal values with a mixture of certain traditional beliefs.
>Flags in the Dust, S&F and AA
You can't use this as an argument, it's how you saw things, it's not necessarily objective.
>he is incredibly critical of the old Southern aristocratic class for their refusal to let go of the past and move into the 20th century
Then why is Dilsey the best character in the novel? She is the most sane and keeps the family together. If Faulkner wanted to criticize, he would have done so.

>>6855820
>not picking up on Jason's lust for Quentin2
>thinking Benjy doesn't have feelings
>thinking Quentin actually wants to fuck Caddy
>not knowing that Quentin killed himself because he didn't want to get over Caddy, not because of the actual emotional pain

Oh buddy. If S&F is your favorite novel I am embarrassed for you. In that post alone you demonstrated four crucial misconceptions that mean you could not possibly have understood the work.

Read some literary criticism or go the fuck back to undergrad. You actually don't understand this work. At all.

>>6855842
>not picking up on Jason's lust for Quentin2
Stop being this deluded, I repeat. He literally hates her for ruining his life.
>thinking Benjy doesn't have feelings
He's a literal retard, he can't "feel" normally, he only feels the smells which invoke memories, which invoke feelings.
>thinking Quentin actually wants to fuck Caddy
Yes, what's the fucking problem? Have you even read this book you mongoloid? In Quentin's part, read the parts which describe his talks with his father and Caddy.
>not knowing that Quentin killed himself because he didn't want to get over Caddy, not because of the actual emotional pain
Just...wow.
>hurr durr I understood this you didn't, pleb
Also, >implying I didn't read literary criticism

>>6855857
Ok. Because I'm feeling nice and I love the book I'm going to try to lift you out of the Platonic cave you're dwelling in, instead of just calling you a fucking moron (which, believe me, is tempting).

Misconception one: Jason doesn't want to bone Quentin2

She only way to explain Jason's neurotic obsession with proving that Q2 is having a tryst is that he is secretly jealous. I can understand how you missed it. Jason himself doesn't even realize that he wants to fuck Q2. This is evidenced by the violent/sexual tension in Jason's first encounter with Q2 at the beginning of his section.
>I grabbed her by the arm. She dropped the cup. It broke on the floor and she jerked back, looking at me, but I held her arm...
>"You turn me loose," Quentin says. "I'll slap you."
>"You will, will you?" I says. "You will will you?" She slapped at me. I caught that hand too and held her like a wildcat..
>I dragged her into the dining room. Her kimono came unfastened, flapping about her, dam near naked.

Jason then proceeds to question her if she's fucking any guys at her school. The sexual covetousness is flagrant. How did you miss it?

Misconception 2: Benjy can't feel like a normal person

His feelings are pretty damn authentic, even if he himself is unaware of the fact that he is feeling sad. Why would you even try to argue this?

Misconception 3: Quentin is physically attracted to Caddy

He's not. Quentin clearly wants to view Caddy as his virginal little sister. His attraction to her is not a physical one. The passage I believe you are referring to, where Quentin tells his father he has committed incest is IMAGINED. It doesn't actually happen. The fact that you failed to pick up on that clearly shows you have not done your reading of secondary sources.

Let me dissect the final scene of Quentin's section for you. Quentin is more perturbed by the fact that his pain is temporary than he is by the actual loss of Caddy. I separated the dialogue and added punctuation to facilitate your understanding.

>and i: it doesn't even have to be that long for a man of courage
>and he: do you consider that [suicide] courage?
>and i: yes sir don't you
>and he: every man is the arbiter of his own virtues whether or not you consider it courageous is of more importance than the act itself. Than any act. Otherwise you could not be in ernest
>and i: you don't believe I am serious
>and he: I think you are too serious to give me any cause for alarm. You wouldn't have felt driven to the expedient of telling me you had committed incest otherwise--
>and i: I wasn't lying. I wasn't lying.
>and he: you wanted to sublimate a piece of natural human folly into a horror and then exorcise it with truth [you wanted to turn your silly crush on your sister into something much more romantic and tragic]

(continued in next post)

>>6840602
I kind of am partial to the other one for the book cover. it makes it look like he is fighting some shadow demon.

Im read the spark notes summary everytime I read a chapter and it made things crystal clear

you may call me a plep but if it helps me get immersed in the story and enjoy it more Imma do it.

>>6856037
>and I: it was to isolate her out of the loud world so that it would have to flee us of necessity and then the sound of it would be as though it had never been [I told the lie to make us social rejects and we could be together forever]
>and he:did you try to make her do it [incest]
>and i: I was afraid to. I was afraid she might and then it wouldnt have done any good. But if I could tell you we did it would have been so and then the others [her previous boyfriends and fiance] wouldnt be so and then the world would roar away
>and he: and how this other. You are not lying now, either. But you are still blind to what is in yourself, to that part of general truth: the sequence of natural events and their causes, which shadows every mans brow, EVEN BENJY'S. You are not thinking of finitude; you are contemplating an apotheosis in which a temporary state of mind will become symmetrical above the flesh and aware both of itself and of the flesh it will not quite discard. You will not even be dead. [You'll get over it.]
>and i: Temporary?
>and he: you cannot bear to think that someday it will no longer hurt you like this, now. We're getting at it. You seem to regard it merely as an experience that will whiten your hair overnight. So to speak without altering your appearance at all--you wont do it under these conditions. It will be a gamble and the strange thing is that man who is conceived by accident and whose every breath is a fresh cast with dice already loaded against him. [He] will not face that final main [death] which he knows before hand he has assuredly to face without essaying expedients ranging all the way from violence to petty chicanery that would not deceive a child until someday in very disgust he risks everything on a single blind turn of a card. No man ever does that under the first fury of despair or remorse or bereavement. He does it only when he has realized that even the despair or remorse or bereavement it not particularly important to the dark diceman.
>and i: Temporary?
>and he: it is hard believing to think that a love or sorrow is a bond purchased without design and which matures willynilly and is recalled without warning to be replaced by whatever issue the gods happen to be floating at the time. No you will not do that [suicide] until you come to believe that even she was not quite worth despair perhaps.
>and i: I will never do that.[get over Caddy, come to believe that even she is not worth despair] Nobody knows what I know
>and he: I think you'd better go on up to cambridge right away. You might go up into Maine for a month. You can afford it if you are careful. It might be a good thing. Watching pennies has healed more scars than Jesus.
>and i: Suppose I realize what you believe. I will realize up there next week or next month.
>and he: Then, you will remember that for you to go to Harvard has been your mother's dream since you were born, and no Compson has ever disappointed a lady.
>and I: Temporary.

>>6855857
>>6856153

Do you understand now? Literature is generally subjective, but your interpretation is indefensible. You clearly didn't understand the significance of this last passage of Quentin's section at all.

You're welcome.

>>6855145
Yeah Mr. Compson is a voice of reason when he tells Quentin that virginity is made up by man and not important.

>>6856037
>>6856153
>>6856161
Thanks for the long-winded reply, I get it now.

>>6856252
Hey don't worry about it. I've had the benefit of studying this book under two different professors. Glad to help.

>>6856942
Seeing how this is literature, and it's subjective, would you agree that it can be interpreted differently?
Do you know of any other interpretations of The Sound and the Fury?

>>6856037
>>6856153
>>6856161

Not the person you're replying to but thanks for this

>>6839900
It's a tale told by an idiot. You should be able to pick out what is worth your trouble. If you struggle too much with one section it's probably left there for the re-read.