/lit/ - Literature

>>6747301
I want to start, what's some essential stoic lit besides meditations.

Would you say it's similar to Buddhism?

>>6747341
I don't know much about Buddhism to compare.

I highly recommend 'Letters from a Stoic' by Senneca. Expands on Stoic ideals in a series of letters from an old (dying) stoic to a young man.

>>6747341
Oh, and for a very good modern interpretation of Stoicism try Ryan Holiday's 'The Obstacle is the Way' -- builds brilliantly on the Stoic ideal; pretty much the best self-help book to leading a good life.

>>6747357
>>6747366
Thank you kindly, I will look into these as well as meditations

>>6747378
Please start with Meditations. It's the most important by a large margin.

How many stoics does it take to change a light bulb?

None. They learn to with without it.

>>6747341
Epictetus the complete discourses

>>6747301
What always bothered me about Stoicism is their nonsensical appeal to nature.

>>6747702
What's nonsensical about it? I see it as the acknowledgement that there are things in the universe you cannot change or stop, and find happiness in accepting this.

It's pretty much impossible to be stoic when you need to be, when you're in the thrall of some emotional crisis.

>>6747742
No you think it is impossible for you. There is a difference. I have put stoic thought into the core of my attitude towards life and it has made me happier and a better person for it. There have been plenty of occasions where I could have lost my cool and started some drama, however, having the foundation of stoic philosophy as a reflexive response stopped me from making bad decisions. It's very calming. Most importantly because it is the realization that anger is a choice and can be overcome.

>>6747301
>I've been 'practising' stoicism for about a year now


The whole modern concept of legal rights and abstract 'equality' is just Stoicism applied on large scale, you are doing nothing new.

>>6747801
Does something have to be new to have value? Besides if it works and makes me happier and a better person then that's fine with me. Not sure how this corresponds to legal rights and abstract equality. Please elaborate.

>>6747341
Buddhism and Stoicism both stress the impermanency of material things and the ephemeral nature of life.

Certain strains of Buddhism gets into really heavy, abstruse detail about the nature of the mind and how it operates, if they don't forgo intellectualization completely (Zen).

Not to say it's bad or inferior to Stoicism.

Stoicism is more about acclimatizing oneself to mental and physical discomfort so you become a rock of moral integrity. Not emotionless or joyless, mind you, it's just about committing yourself to never being a slave of your emotions or someone else again.
In addition to Epictetus and Seneca, read some Musonius Rufus who was called the "Socrates of Rome" and taught Epictetus. Based af.

>>6747808
It's no coincidence Stoicism was so popular in the Roman Empire: when individuals are granted a right to be recognized for what they are intrinsically, as a mere empty unit of a 'legal person' apart from any actual cultural and social content and when this self faces a ruthless world where he can't find his concrete being in it, you have a state of general alienation where only way is to turn inwards.

>>6747341
Buddhism hates the world, and tries to escape it using any means possible. Stoicism embraces the world, to achieve happiness. In practice they seem similar, but the East was very wrong and the West was very right.

>>6748468
>Buddhism hates the world

Brother, you have no idea what you are talking about, you need to just stop now.

>>6747834
if anything, Taoism and Stoicism are more alike than Buddhism and any of the aforementioned

>>6747301
Read Montaigne Essais. He refutes Stoicism, but shows the next step. Also he's a soldier so he pretty much just outright states how impossible it is to negate feelings and pain especially when you're trying to fend off a castle from cannon-fire.

>>6748585
Or perhaps maybe he just wasn't very good at practicing stoicism?

Does anyone remember the name of that fellow, a general or colonel I think, who claimed it was the stoic philosophy of Epictetus that got him through being a POW in Vietnam?

>>6748468
This.
The claim that buddhism encourages love for the world is just as bad as Christians claiming the same thing. At the end of the day they all think there's somewhere better to be, and that getting there is the most important thing

>inb4 but buddhists don't believe in heaven.

>>6748468
No- stoicism says endure the suffering. It was Nietzche that said embrace it

>>6748591
The difference is that Montaigne goes beyond it with a skeptic philosophy that accounts for the possibility of not being able to be fully stoic and virtuous, and still being moved about by feelings, but in the end being able to live just as well.

"If a man cannot attain to that noble Stoic impassibility, let him hide in the lap of this peasant insensitivity of mine. What Stoics did from virtue I teach myself to do from temperament"

>>6748614

Buddhist don't hate the fuckin world man, they practice compassion in this world. They try to achieve awakening, that does not mean hating the world, that means embracing it to its fullest. Acceptance.

Have you even read Buddhist literature? You knowledge of Buddhism is equivalent to a child. Have you ever read the Dhammapada? Or The Lotus Sutra. Get off /lit/ and go read first then talk about Buddhism, because right now, you are just embarrassing yourself.

>>6748632
Funny, Christians do the same acts of compassion to connect with the nature and will of God, and I still don't think they really love the world. They accept that they will not have the perfect kingdom of God on Earth and simply try to manifest God's will through their own lives, but I still don't think they love the world.

Practicing compassion to people doesn't mean you hate the world, just that you don't hate people, and there's a whole lot more to the world than just people's minds. To love the world is to love not just the aspects that help the human brain let go of pain, but also to love the violence, hardness and wildness of the world.

>>6748651


>>6748651
>Practicing compassion to people doesn't mean you hate the world, just that you don't hate people, and there's a whole lot more to the world than just people's minds.

I'm speechless. You have to be a troll, I don't want to think you are this uneducated on the Buddhist Religion. Would you like crack open primary Buddhist Texts to prove how wrong you are?

>>6748591
James Stockdale

>>6747301
I value my emotions and their influence on my artistic ability way too much to ever consider stoicism. I see it as the most dominant way to resign to nihilism, personally.

I'd rather go down kicking, screaming, and laughing.

>>6749650
>stoicism
>nihilistic

where do they find you jamokes

>>6748468
You realize the purpose of Buddhism is to lessen suffering, not enjoyment? And that "escaping the world by any means possible" doesn't quite fit in with meditation and contemplation? It'd be quite easy to "escape the world" through suicide, but that's not really what Buddhism is about, is it?

>>6748678
You seem more like a troll, since the sentence you quoted is entirely an assertion of my own beliefs and has nothing to do with Buddhist texts, yet you're recommending I read "primary buddhist texts" (very specific and helpful, btw) to "prove how wrong" my own beliefs about compassion and hatred are. Buddy, every religion thinks their texts will prove everyone else wrong and that all the nonbelievers are just too stubborn and blinded by some evil force to approach them honestly. Every single prescriptive ideology asserts that, and it's a red flag that you don't have anything left to say when you resort to it instead of engaging with my post.

Stoicism is retarded.
Be an epicurean instead.

Stoicism turned my life around. It's amazing how many people don't seem to understand what being Stoic is really about. It's not about getting rid of emotions altogether, it's about being in control of them. It's not about enduring or struggling against suffering, it's about rearranging your emotional responses so that you never suffer in the first place. Finally, it's not about losing all ambition and desire, it's about recognizing which of those are really attainable and contributing to happiness, and then approaching them with determination rather than stress or anxiety.

There is no downside to true Stoicism, but it can only be practiced properly if you drop any self-imposed barriers such as those that assume that the mind is not capable of regulating emotion to where positive emotions are maximized and negative emotions are almost entirely non-existent.

>>6749650
I'm with you on this. I would be interested to see if a proper stoic ever felt "inhuman" because they would never succumb to human emotions.

Right now, for instance, I'm partially in grief due to my closest friend moving away for good in a few weeks (she's away briefly right now, mind you, which is why I'm not hanging out with her). If I didn't at least partially allow my sadness to bubble to the top of my consciousness, I think I'd feel a bit inhuman. And not only would it do a disservice to my own self-image, I think it might be doing a disservice for *her*-- having an emotional connection to another person is part of what binds you to them; adopting a stoic mindset would, in my mind, sever the ties between me and my best friend.

I'd like to see how a stoic would approach this situation (I've not yet read Meditations, but I plan to).

>>6747301
Epictetus is my nigga

>>6750481
You're showing you do not understand what Stoicism is. Read the Meditations.

>>6750507
I just want to know what a stoic would say in this particular case. Would I be happier if I put restraint on my grief? Yes. But I would also feel as if doing so was just being untrue to my inner convictions. Is the explanation of how I'm wrong too laborious?

But how exactly do you guys 'practice' stoicism?

I know a bit about it and every time I try to be stoic I'm pretty much just acting/pretending to have my actions calibrated according to some of its teachings. Inside I'm still dying.

>>6747664
>None. They learn to with without it.

jesus did you fuck that up or what

i like how this joke was so shit that you didn't even bother correcting yourself out of shame

>>6747702
Le nietzsche face ! xD

>>6750535

You aren't putting restrain on your grief, because grief is a choice. Ask yourself why you are feeling sad about the passing of a friend or relative?

If they were in pain, be thankful they have found peace.

If they died suddenly, be thankful their pain was not drawn out.

If you are sad for the loss of knowing this person, find resolve in having room to make a new acquaintance in your life with the room made.

Death comes for us all. Do not grief for the dead because they cannot hear you. No man loses the past or the future, all they can lose is the current moment, which is relentlessly fleeting and forward moving. This person hasn't lost anything because no man has more than the present moment, without loss you should not feel pity for them.

>>6750545
I'm also a believer that I an naturally inclined to stoicism. Different personalities require different philosophies, which, whilst not being as based as Stoicism, give the desired effect.

>>6750549
I thought it was funny.

Fuck, people really waste their youths.

Stoicism is seen as a path of leaving life without losing your dignity and pride. But it is NOT supposed to be your way of life as a young person.

Your passions are not something you should restrict as a young person. You have to use them in your advantage. When you are young, you have the energy to pursue things with your passion, when you are old, you have the mind to control them.

There is nothing more stupid than a young stoic or an old romantic.

Read "The mediocre man" by Jose Ingenieros.

>>6750567
>old romantic

seems logical enough to me... they're nostalgic, and they have a right to be. I think you might be right, though, that stoicism is more suited for older people.

>>6747757
well now I'm thinking I should check this out, because I had to learn that the hard way

>>6750567
This is wrong. To have the mindfulness of a wise man twice your age, yet all the possibilities youth entails, is the greatest reward for being a young stoic. Waiting until you're old, and the mistakes have been made, is contradictory and simply a poor way to live ones life.

Case in point; I'm twenty and work a shitty minimum wage job before I go off to University in a few months. My supervisor is a forty-something alchoholic who partied away his youth and now clings to what little he can get. No way is that going to be me.

>>6750593
What would you rather do with your youth than party?
Or, in other words, in what way is that not going to be you?

What happens when a stoic drinks alcohol or does drugs?

>>6750605
I hate parties. I loathe the spectacle of it. I had concerts too, actually. My temperament is suited to being alone, thinking, reading, watching a good movie. I enjoy my own company, and friends who offer real conversation instead of inane small talk.

My passion in this life is for storytelling. I love nothing more than a well told story, and naturally want to make my own. This has given my life purpose in pursuing this goal. I am very driven for my age, way ahead of those around me who have no idea what they want to do with their lives. It's a good feel.

>>6750612
Anything that weakens the mind is bad for you, in my opinion. To this day I see anyone who imbibes a drug, be it drinking, smoking, or taking pills as overgrown children. It's sad, really.

>>6750624
>To this day I see anyone who imbibes a drug, be it drinking, smoking, or taking pills as overgrown children
i didn't know children took drugs

>>6750628
Children lack self control.

>>6747717
Their notion that their way of living is somehow more in accordance with nature than any other one, as if all human behaviour isn't per definition human nature.

>>6750567
I'm not sure you know what stoicism is (nor romanticism). One doesn't become a stoic to live a boring, restrained life. What makes you think old men want to live that way? People can follow their passions at any age and be stoic about their decisions. I don't know how you got it into that little noggin of yours that stoicism somehow leads to wasted time. Other way around. It will prevent you from wasting your time on stupid things like drugs and help you focus on what you really desire. Stoicism will help you use your time wisely rather than wasting it on video games. Though I'm no stoic. Emotions are too important to me.

>>6750046
>Finally, it's not about losing all ambition and desire, it's about recognizing which of those are really attainable and contributing to happiness, and then approaching them with determination rather than stress or anxiety.
Well fuck, I had to learn that the hard way too. I'm starting to think I'm a Stoic and didn't know it, and maybe the writings on it will have some next step I haven't found yet. What's this "Meditations" people are talking about as the place to start?

>>6750624
How far up your own ass would you say your head is, precisely?

>>6750636
>Any amount of fun demonstrates a "lack if self control"

/pol/. Leave.

>>6750624
>I am very driven for my age, way ahead of those around me who have no idea what they want to do with their lives.
So, what are you, 17?

>>6750642
Not at all. I'm happy, nice to everyone around me, and plan to live a good life.

>>6750649
20, 21 in two months.

>>6750643
Drugs are for the weak minded.

>>6750624
Not to be disparaging but I hope you realize the tone of superiority you're writing with. If you'd let me offer criticism, I'd say that people generally won't want to be told a story by someone who thinks they're a "better human being" due to their life choices.

I think Terence McKenna would have something to say about your jab at drugs, too. He would probably argue that there is not enough evidence to come to the conclusion that drugs "weaken the mind" (or, at least, *certain* drugs).

In any case, I'd like to end with something a bit more positive.
I hope you do well in your goal of being an accomplished story-teller, whether you mean in-person or on-paper. I love being told and telling interesting personal stories, so our lives are at least similar in that we have both have a certain drive to fill the world with stories.

>>6750656
>Drugs are for the weak minded.
kek, oh lord
you're not being very stoic-like, you know, but i'm glad you feel like you are!

>>6747301
Stoicism is a slave ideology, which influenced christianity greatly. It's main point is to trick the slaves that they can keep doing their job, while still maintaining their human dignity, and having a "fulfilling inner life".

>>6750665
I know I sound like a pompous cunt. But I mean well. Story of my life, really.

I have a friend who smokes weed and cigarettes, and occassionaly does mushrooms, LSD, and gets heavily smashed at parties. When I ask him why he does it he can't give me a better answer than 'it's fun'. Which I suppose is fine, but it's making him a bloated, miserable person, spending money on these distractions when he could be putting his time into something worthwhile that he enjoys (comedy/writing). He also has a problem saying no to food.

I see someone like that and I want to help them. But people don't want to be helped. They would rather continue making the same mistakes. And I leave him, and others, to it.

>>6750686
Am I not allowed to express my opinion?

>>6749948
Pretty good argument tbh

>>6750693
Sounds like your friend could use a little break from getting fucked up. And sounds like you could use a couple rum and cokes yourself.

Life's about balance. Stoicism says enjoy your life, what you have, the people you're with, but don't become attached to them. Always have in the front of your mind that one day they will disappear. Everything outside your sphere of choice is irrelevant.

>>6750728
What if staying home with a good book and a hot chocolate is what makes me happy? What if I don't want to surround myself with a bunch of chads.

>>6749948
basically. You have to let go of the whole ``sage`` or enlightenment thing.

>>6750586
The problem is, they are not full of energy anymore. Their love is not passion, even if it is strong.

>>6750593
No, you keep restraining your passions, you won't get anywhere in your young age if you restrain them.

>>6750639
Read the book I mentioned, I read the spanish version and i'm not sure if I'm using the correct translations for each word, since philosophy requires you to use specific terms. The book may explain things better to you.

>>6750545
Stoicism requires you not to be emotionally numb, but to put reason above all else. If you feel like you are acting, you simply have made a mistake in your reasoning.

>>6750728
I genuinely like this post.

>>6750693
At first I thought you were just acting like an insufferable cunt, but now I see you actually might be a seriously nice person. In accordance with the poster above, I think you ought to advise your friend to take a short 3-day tolerance break. Cigarettes are one thing, but taking a break from psychoactive substances for 3 days can really help a person put perspective in their life in regards to drugs.
Not even in order to show them they aren't addicted to a drug, but because at some point of daily intoxication, people forget what "sobriety" feels like, and it can feel even better than being high if he's a serious user. This topic and other topics related to the mature use of drugs are discussed on r/eldertress. He ought to see if that sort of thing is up his alley.

Just a thought.

>>6750752
Not who you're replying to, but if it makes you happy (not just fleetingly happy) then carry on with it

>>6750752
If you can really say that's all you need in life that's fine but don't knock partying because from where I'm standing it's infinitely funner than staying in and reading on a Friday night. and I love books

>>6747301
>Stoicism
top kek

>>6747301
i can't believe you've been conned into this kind of thinking ace. stoicism is even further up the colon that kantianism.
you need some hume in your life.
you should realize that all those instances of "reason triumphing over passions" are actually just passions triumphing over passions, specifically, you are being ruled by the passion of guilt, instead of those delightful passions which guilt is suppressing. reason has no say in human action; fundamentally different epistemic directions of fit do not allow interference, which is why passions always have primacy...for each action.

in your case, as with all deluded stoics, a particularly bad passion is dominant (guilt), and you need to quickly excise it.

>>6750545
I actually developed Stoicism within myself for years before finding out that it existed as an established philosophy, but it all came together to achieve true happiness when I read the ancient teachings.

The point is that it probably takes some prolonged suffering and self-reflection for it to really set in. You can't expect to just start "practising Stoicism" at any given moment.

>every time I try to be stoic
Completely the wrong way to think of it. Stoicism is a constant way of being, which starts from within and shapes everything else.

>>6750797
>your brain on drugs

>>6750797
>reason has no say in human action

that is, they merely guide the path for the passion controlling them

>>6750797
>>6750800

Actually that made a lot of sense and I can now see how Nietzsche might have something to offer in this discussion.

>>6750797
this is why the majority of philosophy is pedantic garbage. Stoicism is, essentially, the pursuit of virtue to the exclusion of all else (vice is abhored, and anything that does not figure into this is indifferent).

so your point is that trying to attain virtue is a passion? okay, perhaps that is the case, so what dude? whatever you categorize it, it is the use of our reasoning abilities to assist us in living a balanced and harmonious life free of the worst extremes of emotion. I don't care what you label it because I'm concerned about my life here and now, day to day. it's practical so who cares what it's called? don't split hairs.

it's like all the edgelords who think they rekt buddhism by saying "yeah but aren't you DESIRING enlightenment??? BTFO"

>>6747854
>apart from any actual cultural and social content
ayy lmao

>>6748585
>refutes Stoicism
dude stop.
>inb4 nietzsche

>>6750535
You're simply being melodramatic. You can restrain your grief while still showing appreciation for your friend. Stoicism isn't being "inhuman" and losing all emotion, it's just a way to rearrange your emotions in the most positive way. In a sense it could be seen as redefining emotions. For example, love is often characterised as a longing for someone's company bordering on obsession. This cultivates a lot of bad emotions, such as anxiety when you're away from that person and depression when they leave you, which is obviously bad. You can instead change your perception of love to one where you whole-heatedly appreciate someone and their company, but still see them as an individual being who is part of the same natural entity that you are. Without wanting to sound sensationalist, you can appreciate it when nature dictates that they are with you, and also be content when nature dictates that they should leave. There is no actual need for the negative emotions involved in relationships. The idea that negative emotions are linked to positive emotions like two ends of a string is a self-imposed falsehood.

>>6750844
The concept of "bad emotions", or negative feelings, seems to be illogical.

>>6750567
>yolo! amirite guys?

>>6750854
Negative emotions are any emotions deleterious to the living of a good life.

No winners when you're at war with yourself

>>6750612
>forgets his ideals for a night
>makes a fool of himself in front of his peers
>tries to flirt with girls not realising that he is a drunken mess
>throws up all over himself after eating some terrible greasy bullshit
>goes home and passes out
>doesn't regret any of it the next morning despite killer hangover because he is a Stoic
>life is good

>>6750641
It's a collection of notes by Marcus Aurelius, the Roman Emperor, about how to be a good person and to live a good life. Despite being the most powerful fucking person on the planet at the time, literally writing "The Meditations" in his downtime between cutting down hordes of German barbarians on the Roman borders, he never once mentions any of it in writing. It's all incredibly humble and he references the Greeks a lot. Fucking based.

>>6750908
It's just called "The Meditations" then huh? I'll look it up, thanks.

>>6750866
emotions cannot be controlled, they are hard wired to our instincts. They are neither good or bad. i.e love is not always good, or hate is not always negative.

>>6751176
That is bullshit. Emotions are learned reactions, and you can control them if you let yourself believe that you can and work on making it happen. This idea that you are powerless to your emotions is something that you have accepted as fact but it is not so. I can't give any more of a convincing argument. I will say that I am actually in control of my emotions, but you will probably just be stubborn and call me deluded and that's up to you.

>>6751176
did you read what I said?

if I'm in traffic and late for something my initial reaction is to get ripshit but stoicism (shit, not even just stoicism) teaches I don't have to get pulled around by every little reaction like a little faggot bitch. I can nip the anger in the bud right there and then.

it's about practicing it long enough that your stoic "programming" becomes more powerful than the emotional complexes you've built up over years of habit.

if you really think you have no choice but to indulge every flight of emotion I feel bad for you son

I am a Pyrronian Skeptic instead.
The Stoics were hardcore dogmatists back in the day. A lot of people tend to neglect their physical theory and such, preferring to focus upon the ethical component of Stoicism.

>>6751412
This, Stoics were pretty tiresome cunts to be honest with a very shaky notion of God and the universe and order and all kinds of spooky shit.

Pyrrho and friends seem a lot more reasonable.

>tfw being a pig washing NEET

>>6750612
that's a good picture, mind if I save it?

>>6750612
>rune scape
it's run escape motherfucker

>>6751412
>>6751423
Stoic physics are actually pretty good in general for grounding all off the ethical stuff. Zeno went a bit far with it but the other Stoics I've read made a good case for revering nature as god without having to do much mental gymnastics. Obviously it's not necessary but it's a nice enough view of the world to have if one so wishes.

bump

>>6750665
> yfw Stephen King posts on /lit/

> a certain drive to fill the world with stories.

Maybe too many, my main man? Go back to being my childhood idol, please.

Why live your life entrenched in ideology? Life is chaotic. These are just fodder for the absorbing conversation cannon.

>>6754409
To make life better, you imbecile.

>>6754409
>the implication that there is such a thing as a life not entrenched in ideology
>mvq

>>6750643
I can't stand idiots like you who blame /pol/ for everything

You need to leave if you can't handle the discourse here

Philosophy is the key to good life. Not a happy life, because happiness is cheap and fleeting. Seek joy, its made of stronger stuff, warms the heart, lingers where happiness fades. Stoicism allows for lingering joy.

I don't need to make another thread, I think.
So I'll just ask here.

I want to get into stoicism, so here's my list. Is it a good starting point?

Epictetus’ Handbook
Epictetus’ Discourses
Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations
Musonius Rufus, Lectures
Seneca’s, Moral Essays and Letters

What do I lack?

>>6756191
Have you read through the wikipedia page?

>>6756497
No, it's just a list I did depending on what others have suggested on stoicism.
Why? Should I read the wiki page and get done with it?

>>6756720
Read through the wikipedia for a decent overview of Stoic philosophy, see if you like it, then go on and read the texts you mentioned. They'll make a lot more sense after you gain an understanding of what Stoic philosophy really is and how it's supposed to work. You'll also find all the prevalent philosophers and their works on there as well.

>>6756191
Start by listening to this:

http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/stoics-principles
http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/stoics-epistemology
http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/stoics-physics
http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/stoics-ethics
http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/stoics-sedley
http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/seneca
http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/epictetus
http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/marcus-aurelius
http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/sellars-stoics

Then go on with reading whoever interests you the most.