/lit/ - Literature

Okay, so you take away staple fantasy races? Fair enough.
You take away desert and northern people? Fair enough.
You take away staple characters and obvious magic? Fair enough.

But no boats? Especially no political intrigue? What the hell? What do you have left? Farming?

was going to say wheel of time but yeah got some of those last ones

>>660922
thats what i was thinking lol

>>660917
The fuck?

>>660922
And the spaces in between those farms, chocked full of monsters, I'm sure!

Except goblins and orcs, of course.

What's wrong with boats?

>>660929
Old and creaky, plus pirates are bound to invade and take up 10 or 20 pages.

Anything by China Mieville.

>>660935
Oh, whoops. The entirety of The Scar takes place on a boat city. Nevermind.

I... suppose you could tell some kind of mundane redemption tale about a knight defending some farm village from an onslaught of... uh... well any monster that is not a goblin or an orc.

>>660935
I think China Mieville would take exception to a claim that every book he's written is epic fantasy.

>>660917
A Song of Ice and Fire series includes many of these but in believable levels

>>660940
>implying that I write

>>660943
then it's disqualified, no exceptions

>>660942
I guess. Fantasy is fantasy too me. Further diluting the genre with adjectives seems pointless.

He can be a cool kid and call it 'weird fantasy' if he wants.

>>660917
Damn, I should have put in oriental-like people in. Hmm, oh well..

>>660948
New weird is rather vaguely defined, but epic fantasy isn't, and the OP was specifically asking for epic fantasy.

That's why the requirements are pretty much impossible to fulfill.

The Gunslinger?

the Canterbury tales maybe?

>>660955
>a desert land

>>660957
>poems

>>660959
Isn't it more of a wasteland?

i'd read a novel on op

>>660960
Good point.

>>660961
If it was about a land full of wastes, then it would make sense, but you're using the word in the sense that means a desert. Calling something by another word doesn't make it another thing.

>>660961
True but it gave me the desert land feel.

>>660917
Why single out political intrigue? Its hardly a staple of the genre.

The Gormenghast series? The entire story takes place within a castle of titanic proportions. There's no magic, and all of the characters are human.

>>660976
political intrigue.

>>660974
If I wanted cheesy politics instead of mindless escapism I'd turn on fox news.

I think The Name of the Wind fits what you're looking for, though my memory may be foggy.

>>660974
I'm not the OP, but I can't off the top of my head come up with a single epic fantasy series that doesn't have either a dark menace or political machinations going on.

I can't even see how you could write an epic scale plot without both. One of them, yes, but both? Countries fighting countries? People taking on a dark lord? You're bound to get either one, right?

>>660980
I thought so too, but it's kind of a coming of age story, though.

You pretty much just eliminated everything that makes epic fantasy what it is. All you need to do is cut out elves too. Worthless troll attempt.

>>660982
Or a fantastical account of an adventurer traveling through a strange and hostile world. Epic sized, of course.

>>660980
By God, could it be?

>>660984
drats

>>660985
Troll /lit/? No thank you, we've got /a/ and /co/ for that.

Keep em coming, guys!

>>660980
The first book could just barely fit the limitations, but it isn't epic fantasy, and it has a lot of stuff that's borderline, namely political intrigue and a coming of age story.

>>660988
How would it be epic sized if its a single adventurer? Just because he travels a lot doesn't mean it's epic if the focus is local.

>>660994
Two, three, six... whatever! I'm justing looking for a typical fantasy minus the stuff I listed above.

The Mistborn Trilogy

>>661007
I never read those books. I stopped after they started swallowing metal. Hold on, I'll wiki it.

>>661010
That's one of the main draws of the series. A type of power that actually has a physical fuel.

>>661013
That's great, but it appears to fall under "political intrigue". Try again.

have I exhausted the geniuses of /lit/?

One Kingdom: Book One of the Swans War by Sean Russell . I think just has humans. Though I only got to the second chapter. If anyone has read furtherer please correct.

Jeff Vandermeer, Finch. Sort of.

The lies of Locke Lamore. You'll love the gentlemen bastards!

>>661018
confirmed for attention whore

>>661026
from amazon:
>This first book in a new fantasy series starts more than a century after the war that was caused for lack of a successor to King Wyrr's throne. Running beneath a strained peace is a deep hatred between the royal houses of Renn‚ and Wills....

>>660917
Steph Swainston, the Year of Our War

>>661027
I can't tell from amazon, but it doesn't appear to be epic fantasy. Has anyone read this book?

>>661029
>political intrigue

>>661041
from amazon:
>Ms. Swainston mixes political intrigue...

I'm hittin' the hay for a bit, /lit/, I'll check back later.

>>661015
I think your definition of political intrigue needs to be refined. A book with some sort of ruler in it does not make it intrigue.

Any epic fantasy tropes you actually accept OP? And some of those aren't unique to fantasy, do you hate coming of age stories in other genres?

Fuck it, try American Gods, unless that counts as political intrigue. Or something.

>>661053
It has an enchanted spear. And probably a female archer on one page. And maybe a dark lord, sort of. I'm sure out OP would hate it.

>>661053
No. It has a dwarf in it.

>>661056
ITT: OP hates everything ever.

Mists of avalon? Is it fantasy? i think it should be...

>>661093
It probably has a political intrigue, or one character who comes of age, or one fucking boat. You can't please the OP. He is unpleasable.

The Spice and Wolf light novels I guess. Although I think there may be some boats at some points.

>>661102
fuuuuuuuuu forgot about the political bit.

what is left of the epic fantasy genre if you remove all of the above mentioned by op?

Leave this place

>>661122
There's also governments manipulating currency. That's political intrigue.

>>661122
There are also governments manipulating currency. That's political intrigue.

>>661149
I think it's more economic than political.

>>661172
Yes, but they did it so their currency would be used more / become richer at the expense of other countries (I can't remember if it was either or both). They're linked pretty firmly together.

OP here. I will not read anything that involves sunlight or the sense of hearing.

>>661195
Fuck you, I lol'd and spit out the water I was drinking.

>>660917
How about you start reading crime dramas?

American Gods?
Ashes of the Sun has goblins and political intrigue but the goblins are not standard and it passes on everything else. That's about as close as I can get.

Malazan book of the Fallen has what your looking for.

Fortunately it is also on the God-Tier level on fantasy

>>661573

Not really. It has Enchanted Swords, boats (quite a lot of boats), a desert island, barbarians and a dark lord. Also, it's mediocre at the best of times.

Robin Hobb's "Farseer" and "Tawny Man" trilogies are about as low-fantasy as you can get.

Political intrigue is about as close as it gets.

>>661573
Malazan Book of the Fallen? Are you serious?

That has all kinds of crazy magic, dark lords, political intrigue, creatures, etc....

>>661634

Oh wow someone else on /lit/ has at the very least heard of Hobb.

>>661638
Hobb was one of my favorite authors. I didn't like the trilogy she most recently wrote, though - the Soldier's Son trilogy was just kinda meh.

>>661643

Became a rather big fan of her after reading Farseer. Soldier's Son was however slightly underwhelming. She has started a new one, something to do with the shipping trilogy, what led to it I believe.

>>661636
Well...there are lots of boats, two or three enchanted (or maybe more like cursed) swords, three books out of eight are set in a desert, barbarians are almost everywhere, and political intriques are definitely there too.

Gardens of the Moon are pretty close though...there are just the political intriques.

>>660917
The story I haven't finished writing yet, but that depends how far you stretch the definition of "elf."

>>661670
Clearly you didn't read the OP.
>Epic fantasy novels without elves
>WITHOUT

He does _not_ want all that stuff. That's the point.

>>661684
Yeah, I got that, I just replied to a different post accidentaly...meant to reply to >>661573

The only fantasy story I can think of that fits this is the story of Planescape: Torment. There is even a novelisation of it on the internet, could be it considered a novel then?

>>661724

Too bad the novelization sucks monkey balls.

this book (book 1 from the avatar series, forgotten realms)

just human race stories and gods.

You could read Bernard Cornwell and just pretend it isn't historical. A lot of the crap isn't true anyhow.

Maybe some michael moorcock?
Not Elric obviously

>>660935
Doesn't he tell everyone that he writes sci-fi?

Not that it matters. The guy sucks no matter what he thinks he writes.

The Drawing of The Dark by Tim Powers.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it you cunts.

>>662079
What about the longsword? And boats on the Danube?

Look up Almuric by Robert Howard. Might fit the bill...
The Dungeon series might work as well.

Certain books of the bible?

What about the Thomas Covenant series? He pretty much says 'Fuck that' to the political intrigue

That Greg Bear fantasy series what started out with The Infinity Concerto.

His Dark Materials

Mortal Engines

and so on

>>662192
Cough dark lord cough

Prince of Nothing's good. there's plenty of politics, magic, desert races, and barbarians though. i really dont know what you're expecting OP

>>662054

This is what I do, and it works just fine.

>>662311
This was the first thing that popped into my head, but damn if it doesn't have a kickass enchanted sword.

>boats

YOUUUU MOTHERFUCKER

OP is a troll who carefully constructed a list which would cancel out any and all fantasy books, and a good chunk of any other genre really.

>>660917

The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss

>>660917

>Lord of the Rings

>>660961
"The man in black fled across the desert, and the Gunslinger followed..."

Yeah it is a desert.

Coldfire Trilogy.

The Solomon Kane stories, while not epic novels, might work.

>>662737
Other than one or two uneventful boat trips, this actually fits the criteria.

>>662785
Oh shit yes. This this this.

>>662777
>>662779
the fuck? African fantasy? explain this shit

OP here, just got back from work. I've briefly read into all suggested novels and NONE of them fit my criteria. Some of them come pretty damn close, but fail on either the dark lord or coming of age aspects. Also, Greg Bear's books are science fiction, not epic fantasy. Try again!

>>662876
sci fi challenge
Sci fi novel without aliens, space travel, computers, technology, the future, speculation, conversations, a story involving characters, and of course, AI. Go?

>>662798
political intrigue.

>>662876
Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell

>>662903
political intrigue.

>>662906

Bullshit.

At this point you can define political intrigue as "any Man vs. Man plot"

>>662910
no, just political ones.

The hell is wrong with the Coldfire Trilogy?

>>662930
guess

Actually, Chronicles of the Black Company fits pretty much all those.

No elves dwarves, goblins, or orcs. Some supernatural creatures appear at various points but they are rare.

No boats. Travel is rare in the world of Black Company and people don't travel beyond view of shore even when they do go out in boats.

No enchanted swords. One enchanted spear in the later books though.

No desert land or desert people or barbarians.

No archer woman.

Very little political intrigue. Some serious military intrigue, but mostly politics is just the stuff that people fondly remember before they Black Company shows up and starts wrecking their shit.

No coming of age story. All the POV characters are old fucks.

THERE IS however a dark lord. And a couple dark ladies.

>>662910
Except for the whole Napoleanic War political intrigue thing.

>>662951
Ah, I had my hopes up for a moment.

>>662957
Neither Norrell nor Strange did any grabbing for political power in that area. There was no struggle for leadership of the country, a company, or anything else. There was no level of intrigue whatsoever. Norrell was tricky about Lady Pole, but that was about it.

At the most you could say that Strange and Norrell's public spat about the nature of magic was almost an intrigue but again I say that if this disqualifies the book you might as well nix all man vs man plots.

>>662981
But is it "epic fantasy"?

Watership Down. Suck it you asshole. Suck it long, and suck it hard.

>>662957
It's not political intrigue at all. It's dry, utilitarian, and not very important to the book. "Can you kill all their soldiers with magic?" "No, but I can make the grass fairly muddy so they don't march too fast." "Well, that'll have to do." Norrell never tried for intrigue, never tried to increase his wealth or political power with his magic.

>>662988
It's set in a parallel world and alternate history. If you define epic fantasy as taking place in an entirely fictional place (Dun'ge'd'sdd planet in Powoel'rffk' galaxy) then no, it's not epic fantasy.

>>662998
>General Woundwort falls under "dark lord"

Counterattack!

>>663026
I guess it's DISQUALIFIED then. Nice try.

damn, this is tricksy

Curse of Chalion?

>>663044
lol no

If you take all of those, it wouldn't be epic fantasy. Especially enchanted swords. Those are the best.

I'm starting to get the feeling there is no right answer

Has my challenge finally beaten /lit/? Is there not at least ONE book out of the millions out there that falls under my criteria?

>>663050

what, cause there's a boat in one scene?

Shadowmancer was pretty cool as far as pseudo-Christian fantasy books go.

>>662891
Also no guns, parents, or POLITICAL INTRIGUE.

>>663082
It might be a little bit on the side of a coming of age theme, since the main character was a teenage boy, but other then that it fits all of OP's other criteria.

>>663082
>The story... concerns the evil sorcerer the Reverend Obadiah Demurral... who is seeking two powerful amulets... which he plans to use to control the elements and dominate the world.

>>663057

fuck yeah, saberhagen for the win

and screw you OP you wouldn't appreciate the book of swords. GTFO

>>663087

or maybe I'll GTFO since it's your topic. Meh.

so can we get some description of what "political intrigue" means in your opinion OP? Because I think Dr. Norrell and Mr. Strange might do it.

>>663086
He's a false priest, far from a "Dark Lord". Unless by dark lord you mean any antagonist ever?

>>663094
not OP, but "evil sorcerer" sounds analogous to dark lord to me... just saying...

Shade's Children?

>>663091
Self-descriptive

>>663094
He's trying to take over the fucking world with magic. Also, see >>663084

>>663091
It was disqualified on the "epic fantasy" criterion, because it does not take place in a completely alternate world.

>>663101
>computers

haha, good one

>>660917
Harry Dresden!

>>663112
not epic fantasy

coldfire trilogy by CS friedman

ITT: Most successful troll in the history of /lit/. Subtle and clever, OP. I commend you.

>>663119

>>662770 is a cause for disqualification

Lord Darcy

I like this thread because people are suggesting non LOTR fantasy... (I have much less stringent conditions than OP, lol)

>>663122

this thread is entertaining, so stfu

>>663124
Collections of short stories are not novels, and the novels that do feature the character are not epic fantasy.

>>660917
Read lovecraft....and preternd there is a good guy beating cthullu.

Well, if you leave the few and far apart amounts of Boats.
The Magic World at war series from Harry Tutledove is great. Though there's a teeny bit of political intruige, desert lands, desert people, and coming of age, they're not the main story.
since it revolves around about fifteen different viewpoint characters you can just skip the ones that have those interactions. Seriously though, for me, it was like putting ten books into six books... if that makes sense...

>>663135
All of Lovecraft can't get past this rule:
>no dark lords

>>663129

>entertaining

I agree. The good trolls usually are.

>>663140

Also, because it's not epic FANTASY

Little, Big by John Crowley

>>663138
>Though there's a teeny bit of political intruige, desert lands, desert people, and coming of age, they're not the main story.

>>663140
LOL, how did i miss that point?

the flying sorcerers by larry niven and david gerold

>>663146
It's not in the main sotry though you can LITERALLY skip it if you so wished so like.. hmm. The story of Skarnu and how he becomes a renegade and fights the opressing army and such. no boats, political intruige or the like, so it's perfectly fine. But Ealstan's story is a coming of age one, so you'd skip it.
Oh by the way Lots of sex in these books so it's good just for that reason alone.

>>663145
OH MY GOD

>>663154
>sci fi

>>663157

does that mean he found it?

>>663145
I argue that, while it seemingly fits under all of the criteria I have set forth, it is not what is commonly accepted as an "epic fantasy" novel. It is epic in length, to be sure, but it doesn't feature many of the key features that would make it fall under this genre, such as wizards and huge multi layered alternate worlds. I submit to that this novel is just normal "fantasy", and not "epic fantasy"

there is no good reason to exclude political intrigue

>>663187

i suppose that's what makes it a challenge

Whew, /lit/ really picked up the pace for a while. Unfortunately, we have yet to find an epic fantasy novel that fit my specifications. Keep on trying, guys!

>>663184

your conditions are getting fuzzy

>>663202
Fantasy is not the same as epic fantasy, I'll say that right now.

>>663204

define "epic"

>>663207
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fantasy

Sharing Knife by Bujold

Dragonriders of Pern
>lolitrollu

>>663213
>grand struggle against supernatural, evil forces
>elves, fairies, dwarves, magic or sorcery, wizards or magicians, invented languages, quests, coming-of-age themes


Ah, I see. You want epic fantasy that isn't epic fantasy.

Urth of the New Sun. There might be a boat but you'll have to check me on this, my memory is faulty (unlike the main character's)

>>663234
And it's sci fi

I'll be back in a while, /lit/, keep em coming.

I can think of a million things that fail this just because they have fucking boats in them. What the fuck?

The Wonderful Wizard of Oz

I, for one, fucking LOVE reading epic fantasy in which elves, dwarves, men, orcs, wizards, vampires, zombies, dragons, and other such things strap on their armor, group up in armies, and beat the SHIT out of each other with magic swords and spears, and whatnot.

I love it almost as much as I love sci-fi about epic galactic civilizations grinding the shit out of each other with political maneuvering, huge armies, navies, or elite pilots/commandos/special forces unit of your choice here.

I was born and raised with Robin Hobb, Robert Jordan, Michael Moorcock, and Ursula K. LeGuin.

I grew up on The Chronicles of Prydain - a dashing tale of warfare, boyhood, bravery, kings, queens, princes, princesses, Dark Lords, wizards, knights, and pig farmers...

.... and my teenage years were full of the X-WING series by Michael Stackpole and Aaron Allston, in which the New Republic sent its daring, dashing X-WING Pilots to strike at the ruins of the Galactic Empire, full of heroic pilots, exotic females of all species, elite special operation commandos, secret agents, political maneuvering and other brilliant things.

These books left a very indelible impression on me, perhaps even more so than my childhood favorite Redwall, or The Liveship Trader series, which I fell in love with in my teen years.

>>663261

Tsukihime

>>663272

>lol guys let's go on a book forum and not talk about books

excellent plan, anonymous

Perdido Street Station.

I mean, fuck, there are boats. And the world has a desert land. BUT COME ON.

>>663249
This is the only book that passes the test. It has a multi-layered alternate reality and none of the stuff mentioned in the OP

>>663296
I'm pretty sure that the witch falls under "Dark Lord".

>>663300

OP should seriously read The Tale of Beren and Luthien.

Unless he hates DEM FUNNY NAMES, which seems to be an issue amongst a few discriminating fantasy readers.

Riddlemaster

Iron Tower

The Talisman, Stephen King.

Darkover

>>663318

and while there are a number of amazonians, not a single one is an archer ;)

Alice's Adventures in Wonderland

Wait. I think it had boats in it. Fuck.

Orlando Innamorato

Now piss off.

>>663335
>poem

Neverwhere

>>663331

boats? wat?

>>663379

Probably the part with the mock turtle, it's been a while really since I read it...

So your asking for historical fiction, right?

nope, he'll piss and moan bout it not being epic fantasy

Ok. Name a novel (of any kind) that does not have in it the following things:
Humans
Animals
Anthropomorphic animals
Anything anyone has ever thought of

>>663512
>>663512

Ulysses

>>663231
>>663231
>>663231
>>663231
>>663231
>>663184
>>663184

This, this, this. A million times, this.

OP is asking for epic fantasy without the components that define epic fantasy.

It's like saying "Science Fiction with no advanced technology, speculative ideas, alternate history, time travel, transhumanism or aliens, and it can't be set in outer space or in the future."