/lit/ - Literature

>>6630480
They're bloated as fuck for no good reason and very little actually happens throughout them. Characters can spend the entire book getting from point A to point B and still not be there by the end. Besides that the prose is mediocre at best and laughable at worst.

>>6630480
>the more she drank the more she shat
>ITS GENRE SHIT
>NO DISERNIBLE TALENT

There opie, i ressumed the thread for you.

Something about a bitch that shits diarrhea poop so hard that she passes out or something

>>6630480

has the show gotten to the diarrhea scene yet?

>>6630480
>Are they that fucking bad? What is something wrong with them that couldn't be said about Tolkien for example?
if you're seriously asking that then you probably won't even understand what's actually bad with grrm

>>6630480
they read like fanfiction tier garbage.

I've heard it said that GRRM hates fanfiction of his own work because of his legitimate concerns it would be better than anything he could write.

>>6630512
I'm playing Devil's advocate. I have every intention of screencapping the better posts in this thread and using them to troll bookfags in /got/.

>>6630561
>I come here because I'm not smart enough to form my own arguments
pls go and stay go. /tv/ is a containment board and got general is a containment thread in a containment board. it's probably the most pleb place on this whole website and you want help to lord it over them intellectually.

>>6630575
No, as stated I came here because people over there constantly flaunt /lit/ as an authority as to why GRRM's books suck. I came for proof, nothing more.

>>6630480
"He's very popular, so it would be uncool for me to say that he's any good."
~ Everyone on lit.

>>6630480
/lit/ is full of failed writers and unemployed phylosophy grads.

They are mad that GRRM wrote shit that actually gets published.

>>6630617
>trying to spook /lit/erate people

>>6630617
I'm a published writer in a STEM field.

>>6630617
i've had several things published

[/spoiler]in my university's paper that i work for

>>6630668
o jesus

>>6630599
>>6630617
kek this denial, this b8 it's delicious

>>6630640
Nobody cares about science literature.

>>6630696
It isn't science literature.

I actually don't believe science is a valid method of interpretation, it ignores any extreme variance from the norm, as well as anything that cannot be observed or inferred.

But engineering is always in demand, and I'm fine with undergraduate-level material, so I sacrificed a bit of my integrity for security.

>>6630732
>it ignores any extreme variance from the norm
That is wrong. Any type of "unexpected" variance is an error of the application of an expression. For instance, if you consider the equation for the ideal gas law for real gases, you will have a bad time.

>as well as anything that cannot be observed or inferred.
If they cannot be observed, they cannot interfere. You are from engeneering, you should know that already.

>>6630781
You're ignoring the central point. Science is inherently reductionist.

>>6630806
On the contrary. The simplicity of science is the common denominator for any physical event.

>>6630617
>tfw struggle with trying to get published in a lit journal

>>6630640
Cool. Me too and I'm fucking 20. It isn't hard to get published in STEM and it doesn't mean shit.

>>6631387
See: >>6630732

>>6630480
>What is something wrong with them that couldn't be said about Tolkien for example?
It pisses me the fuck out when people compare GURM to Tolkien just because both of them wrote fantasy.

If you want to know, ASOIAF has absolutely nothing to offer but shallow excitement.
Sure, death of the author and shit, meaning can be inferred and interpreted from any text I guess; but that doesn't change that his work lacks direction, has amusingly bad prose, lacks a clear theme, tries to be edgy but it doesn't really amount to anything, the pacing is absolutely fucking atrocious due to his fetish for both POV writing and shitting, and has a blatant Mary Sue in Daenarreahs.

>>6630575
Why would smarts matter? If you haven't read the books, you haven't read the books.

>>6630480
from a tv brain "books" probably implies what is being written right now or has been written in our lifetimes. I wouldn't argue with that but there are a lot more books out there.

if tv means that books are bad because the /lit/ board is bad, well..

>>6630498
>>6630509

it will be the most epic season finale ever. How will she ever break the wheel now?

The first three or four books are fine - actually the first three in particular are excellent. But then he starts milking it, dragging shit out beyond all reason and that's when it goes to hell.

>>6630480
GRRM has strengths and weaknesses.

He tried doing something different with all his historical references to battles and dynastic turmoil, such as Greek Fire in Byzantine's famous naval battles, and the marriage/heir drama in the 100 years war.

His prose has gone from not great to bad, largely because he knows that his HBO deal will sell his brandname, so now he refuses to listen to his editor.

He claims he has an overall theme in mind for his magic and that it should be obvious, but then makes vague choices in the novel, (why do Catelin Stark/Beric Dondarion/cold hands still have their personalities when they return, but the white walkers don't?). Or out of character makes weird contradictions, such as stating that Danny isn't immune to fire, she can still be burned, and her funeral pyre scene was magic.

He seems to have changed his mind about the direction the novels are headed, since he stated them in the 90's, which has made the story bloated. Bloated not only in density and number of novels but some characters keep getting chapters that just delay the inevitable because other characters aren't in position yet for major plot points.

>>6630480
Excerpt from the first book.

>>6631734
>...it cried, its voice as low and chilling as a cold wind from the north.

this is garbage

>>6631734
The Joyce of our generation.

>>6631757
http://www.buzzfeed.com/alexnaidus/the-dirtiest-excerpts-from-james-joyces-letters#.rgkQx67pe

>>6631728
If he were a more economical fucking writer he wouldn't be having this problem. Christ's sake, Tolkien was just as autistic in his worldbuilding but he at least managed to tell a complete story in about 400,000 words.

I can't brint myself to read ASOIAF because I'm worried about wasting time that I could spend on reading something better.

>>6631734
I don't get it.
What's so bad about onomatopoeia?

>>6631799
>autistic in his worldbuilding
care to give an example of a better world builder?

>>6631833
I didn't use 'autistic' as an insult, I used it as a descriptor. Tolkien and Martin both built extremely detailed, incredibly fleshed out worlds with more thought and care put into them than could ever fit in a single story, no matter how large.

>>6631855
oh...
I don't think that word would ever be taken as not an insult.

>>6631861
Many words that are normally insulting are NOT insulting when used in the context of a 4chan post.

You know, like 'faggot.'

>>6630480
First couple of books are passable deconstructions of overplayed fantasy tropes with gimmicky grimdark edginess mixed in.

Then the series disappears up its own ass, plotlines get ludicrously complicated and unresolvable and the writing goes down the shitter.

>>6631830
Well, for one thing, it does nothing to strengthen the imagery

and second the rest of the passage is wretched

>>6631830
i swear to god people should have to earn a license to express thoughts

I've pretty much always read a fair bit of "pleb genre trash" but even I found the GRRM books boring and sort of soulless. They seemed violent and transgressive simply for the sake of being edgy. Just all this meaningless death and incest. When GRRM started writing this crap there were all these gritty, grim, medieval tv shows and movies and I think that's where he drew his inspiration from. I don't get why people like these at all, let alone the massive popularity.

>>6631900
Well he has a background in television. Maybe he was trying for something beyond imagery, something auditory.
>>6631902
Sounds like oppression. I'd still pass it. Send in the firing squad, I'm ready. bangbangbang

I always thought that whole diarrhea business was just lit shitting on him, I can't believe he actually wrote that (though he's a disgusting neckbeard). Are the books full of dicks too?

>>6631925
No, even he said he's not obsessed with 'weenies', it should be 'boobies'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ybyHBImGwI

People are just assmad that, despite the book>tv dichotomy, the show is actually telling a more efficient story than the books.

If you think about it, that's the only way he could ever be able to let the TV show happen as it is right now. unlike most great authors that clearly disdain the pleb masses like J. D. Salinger, GRRM is more like Tolstoy, Joyce and Proust in that he is purposely not writing popular fiction. He's not writing for his audiences enjoyment. He's writing for himself and the hardcore academic autists that would obsess over this shit. He wants his work to be more than the sum of its parts.
It's not even that he's not pandering to D&D nerds and manchildren like Pratchett and others do. He literally doesn't give a fuck if only 5 people ever read his shit.

Inexplicably... his work became popular with the pleb masses. They're just not used to a popular fiction creator not caring about them at all.

>>6631734
That isn't from the first book m8.

>>6631925
Just read the first the only penis on it I think was Hodor's
>>6631964
It is, when Tywin battles Roose Bolton next to the Green Fork, and Tyrion brings his army of savages with him.

>>6631815
I feel the same. I have over 100 fucking books of dank ass literary fucking fiction littered around my house, and reading any genre fiction would only get in the way of my backlog. Especially considering every genre novel is part of a 20 book series

>>6631734
There is literally noting wrong with this writing.

>>6631959
>compares GRRM to Tolstoy, Joyce and Proust

HOLY SHIT 10/10 BAIT I CAN'T IGNORE IT

>>6631728
holy fucking shit
Is there a secret meaning about this?
Never read GRRM but many of my friends love the tv series. I saw them and it seems like they mashed all fantasy cliches and stories into one big pile of shit.

>>6631922
he writes for morons though.

>i don't think my readers could understand what a horn sounds like

>wait a minute, i got it...brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

>>6631959
Beautiful bait Anon, you truly brought tears to my aching eyes.

http://strawpoll.me/4524768

I want more votes.

>>6630480
It's not bad, in my opinion, but it's certainly not the greatest thing of all time. It's an exciting and fun soap opera, the third book was so intense I couldn't let it go for the last 300 pages. But it's nothing actually deep and meaningful, just entertainment. And there are other problems (that I can usually ignore in the first three books), such as GRRM not having a clear vision of what he wants. He's dumping more and more plotlines that he won't be able to resolve. And the 4th book is fucking terrible, the only people who like it are rabid fanboys who'd enjoy GRRM's Twilight+Harry Potter gay slash fiction if he made it.

>>6630590
>constantly flaunt /lit/ as an authority
roflmao people are fucking stupid.

>>6630493
Shouldn't you read that book about the cuck fapping on the beach. And farts.

>>6630542
Read this:

https://archive.is/NvMJn

ITT: people who haven't read asoiaf

>>6632475
who needs to?

bad guys do bad but EXTREME

good guys do good, but not as extreme as bad guys, because: allegory

good guys will still win because: HBO

plot outlined

>>6631734
Harooooooooooo!!!!!

>>6631728
>da-DA-da-DA
>GRRM is actually referencing dada movement

Having read all of the books, in order to know why they are so bad, I found that the first book was, for a fantasy novel, pretty good and I can say I enjoyed the political intrigue, which was the main selling point for me. In the first book, politics were high and the fighting low in content, but as the series progressed this was inverted, deteriorating from them substantially. He is far too verbose and superfluous, hence their length, and could have been cut down by 200 pages or so. His prose, as had been said many times in this thread, is mediocre during the best parts and laughable in the worst. Tyrion is GRRM so there is far too much attention given to him and ego stroking in general. The conversations had between characters were believable, unless with Tyrion because then Tyrion always has to be the smartest, for afore mentioned reasons. Read the books. If not to enjoy them, to critique them with any authenticity, it's like JG here-most haven't read him (I have) but still shit on him in circlejerk threads. Rightfully so, but it is a bit dishonest. The show faces similar problems and has gone to utter shit in the past two seasons.

>>6630480
I'm gonna give you my honest opinion without resorting to hyperbole like every other fucking retard on this board.

Why it sucks:
- Very long, often pointlessly so
- Large periods where nothing really happens.
- A lot of characters are boring as fuck yet have a lot of time dedicated to them
- It is at times poorly written (most notably the last two books)
- Lacks an editor with balls
- He wrote himself into a corner 15 years ago and has been struggling out of it since

Why it's great:
- Every character is involved and has a backstory. Even the characters mentioned once have a place in the world that isn't random.
- He's created an undeniably interesting world to explore
- The first three books have very little reason to hate
- I personally really liked the POV style of writing each chapter. Felt like I was reading several books at once which if I'm honest made it super immersive.
- He seems to have an incredible knack for setting up the major plot points without the reader ever realising. Most of the biggest twists and turns are subtly hinted at and this really rewards repeat readings

So yeah, it's kind sloppy and boring at times, suspensful and engaging at others. It's set in an incredibly detailed (almost to a fault) and interesting world with plenty of intrigue and mystery. If you read a lot and get through books quickly then I wholeheartedly recommend, if you're a casual reader then there's other books worth your time.

>>6631815
As someone who's read most of them before knowing better, I'd say don't do it. >>6632030 is absolutely right. You'd be way better off reading through, for example, Pinecone's whole catalog than wasting your time on game of thrones or anything similar.

>>6631959
oops, forgot pic

>>6632587
You know the whole point of ASOIAF is that there is no good or bad guys, right? The show tries to make it seem this way so it makes sense that people who never read the book but only watch the show think this way (why aren't you on /tv/?) but GRRM has been vocal of how much he disliked the "Good vs Evil" trope. It's why the POV strcture works so well because you end up getting the perspective of both sides and in many cases end up rooting for both sides. The show has shat all over this but the books are far more ambiguous.

>>6632838
your reasons 'it's great' are the same tropes every fantasy lover sprouts.

>every character has a backstory
this is a given, all literature should involve character back-stories. just because he has a lot of characters and a lot of back stories does not make him readable.

>interesting world to explore
an interesting world is nothing without an interesting reason to explore it. this is what adult fans of harry potter use as justification.

>first three books have very little reason to hate
Jesus, we're reaching here aren't we? you can only come up with two reasons why GRRM's works aren't terrible before you reach, 'well, it's not terrible.'

>POV style
Go away

>knack for setting up major plot points
You mean the basic skill of a story teller?

Fantasy genre-trash should just fuck off back to /tv/ where you all hope your lame excuse for escapism will get its' next pilot

>>6632851
>You know the whole point of ASOIAF is that there is no good or bad guys, right?

If GRRM isn't just plugging this bullshit line retroactively, why is he giving HBO spoilers that allow them to perpetuate the 'Good V Evil' trope, that he is deliberately trying to disengage his work from?

>>6632927
>why is he giving HBO spoilers that allow them to perpetuate the 'Good V Evil' trope
Such as?

>>6630489
yeah but so was many of tolkiens books,
i mean he took 10 pages to describe the pipe and type of plant the hobbits smoked after fighting with the Ents in two towers

>>6632930
http://io9.com/this-accidental-game-of-thrones-spoiler-just-changed-1568796246

>>6632948
Yes, and there's a reason nothing Tolkien wrote is recognised as literature, in that he thought ten pages spent describing smoking was a good use of the reader's time.

>>6632960
He's giving them info so they don't have to wait for the books to finish.
Not really sure where the cliched good vs evil trope is in that "article" though.

>>6632970
nobody recognizes tolkien as literature

>>6632980
>nobody recognizes tolkien as literature

>>6632877
Nothing you said has convinced me I was wrong to have enjoyed reading the books. You do seem overtly hateful at a book series however. Are you projecting your hatred for your father onto me and my enjoyment of this book series? Or maybe it's your mother you hated. Either way I wish you all the best in finding a way to spend less of your time talking about things you hate and more time talking about the things you like.

Has anyone here read David Gemmell, specifically his Troy trilogy?

As someone who's read a lot of fantasy and sci-fi (although not exclusively), people's limited awareness of the genres always seem to become apparent when I asked why they found ASOIAF interesting or attractive, as opposed to other series they had read.

Typically, it revolves around vague ideas of "oh, he kills off main characters - this maintains tension and is novel", or "he depicts dynastic struggle/political machinations, rather than binary views of good vs evil - this makes such a change from Tolkien!"

Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with this, and this isn't GRRM's fault or even necessarily the fault of readers. But the above concepts have been done before and have been done better.

The reason why I mention Gemmell's Troy is that Gemmell did this format in three decently sized books, without it becoming a bloat-fest of sublime mediocrity. Granted, one is historical fiction, the other epic fantasy (and Gemmell died during writing), but Gemmell always struck me as an economical writer who was perfect for that type of book. Troy's pacing is excellent, has all the political subterfuge you'd want, while main characters develop (!) and some are killed in a thematically strident fashion. But it said all it needed to say and nothing more.

Is ASOIAF simply the one that got lucky? It always struck me, the more I think about the books, that it falls into the very same pit-falls that its proponents claim it avoids. I.e. being a long tract that apes Anglo-Saxon chronicles, and is in desperate need of prudent editing.

>>6632980

You are wrong, because:

I recognize Tolkien as literature.

Q.E.D.

>>6632976
so you're saying the man deliberately gave an institution information, knowing that they would bend it to fit their marketable paradigm of 'good V evil' and claims innocence, or are you saying that the man is so retarded, he thought the information would be used to build a separate world, distanced from his own paradigm of 'everyone is evil'?

or is he just making shit up on the fly to assuage morons and make millions?

i suppose the fact HBO call it 'GOT' rather than the individual titles of books threw GRRM

>>6631734
It seriously reads like something I would have written in elementary school. Not even joking, it's actually that bad. Except even I wouldn't have done that shitty onomatopoeia.

>>6633032
He's just collecting his shekels by giving them info he already knows.
The show past s1 has only followed the books loosely, and they're going balls to the wall in the current season. Doubt GURM gives all that much of a shit seeing as it's not a recent thing and he probably also has a mega contract with HBO as advisor or some shit.

>>6633010
Buddy, if you didn't inherently feel wrong for enjoying the books in the first place, then there's nothing i could have done to help you, and i know that. Everything i said was, in an odd sort of way, for my own edification.
Good luck with being a pleb, autist all of your days

>>6632069
What kind of stuff do you normally read, m8?

>>6633043
though surely we're not all naive enough to believe the novels are cannon over the television show?
the more popular, the more marketed by the author, the more recent medium is most assuredly cannon

>>6633058
Best be trolling pal, Martin is a writer, judging him on some show is fucking retarded, and I suspect you know this too.

>>6633045
>pleb
>autist

Say no more. I didn't realise you'd spent that much time on here that you actually say these things.

>>6632261
>https://archive.is/NvMJn

Bah, bullshit. You mean to tell me the Illiad hadn't been changed as it passed down through the centuries? And did the Athenian playwrights ask the Bard for permission, before satirizing his work?

Hell no nigga.

>>6633066
he's a long-winded screen writer, who other, better, screenwriters are forced to simplify. Writer is a broad term, the act of pen to page hardly dignifies such a refined term.

>>6633070
pleb and autist as modern terms shit all over, you know, the shitting scene

>>6633085
>the act of pen to page hardly dignifies such a refined term
It does, actually.

>refined term
Don't have enough fedora pics for this.

>>6633093
You can find one, I'm sure they more than fill your 'future novels' folder

>>6633106
No offence, but thinking that published authors aren't writers just because you don't like their prose is self-serving delusion of the worst kind.

>>6633114
what is your semantic difference between tolstoy and handford?

>>6633016
damn

>>6633123
Just because they're all authors does not mean there can't be differences in the quality of their works.

As always, their works define them, and not whether they satisfy a person's arbitary definition of what it means to be a writer. Speaking of, what is your definiton of a writer?

>>6633140
not
>GRRM

as a rule of thumb, anyone who doesn't make a mockery of his own audience as a means to accruing more $

they are not bad. They are long and not good.

Long and not good is its own kind of bad. But its not the worst material page by page you will ever read.

My major issue with his series is that you come away with nothing. Its just a grey mess at the end (so far)

And no character seems to act according to their own heroic backgrounds or abilities or magic powers etc. His characters feel like normal people who got dropped into roles.

While reading you will feel "is this worth it" the answer is no.

Its not bad, but its bad.

>>6633216

It's an enjoyable read, in the same sense that Harry Potter is an enjoyable read. Enduring literature it is not. Still, of guilty pleasures it provides plenty.

>>6630489
>>6631448
>>6631728
>>6631890
>>6632834
>>6632838
>>6632030
>>6632877

The only meaningful posts in this thread, Opie.

>>6633015

100% this.

Gemmell's Troy series is a perfect example of the same levels of character development, with twice as good pacing and atleast half better prose.

GRRM has several issues with his writing, and the good parts such as the depth of characters, are not outstanding. The story is objectively good, although I would say that it isn't excellent. The world he has created however, is very good. Its a shame that he's writing it in such a painful way.

>>6633016
10/10

For all that is said about him, Tolkien knew more about the English language than anyone on this board.

Whether or not his premise is insipid, that is. He's the foremost authority on Nordic languages in the literary world.

>>6632877
this. it reads like what I imagine a d&d novel would be like.

>>6632970
Explain why Proust is considered literature, then, since he spent 10 pages describing the steeple of a church.

>>6630480
They're a lot of fun. If you liked the worldbuilding in the TV series, then you'll like the books a lot. That dude likes to yammer on and on about shit. Some (a lot, imo) of his prose is laughably bad while still being very readable. I think what >>6633216 said is spot-on. I'd like to add a caveat, though, which is that badness and readability aren't mutual. There's a lot of very absorbing genre fiction that's super easy to get sucked into. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>>6634476
Yep, that's what determines artistic worth - the amount of knowledge about Nordic languages.

It's well crafted and mindless, fun to read and obviously not going to challenge you to think in any new way.

I'd rather read GRRM than Franzen or John Greene because I'm a great deal more interested in creative worldbuilding, but artistically I'd argue the three are of equal worth.

>>6632970
>Umberto Eco wrote four pages of dense text (in my edition) describing a single painting (and also a several pages describing the monastery and its architecture)
>Homer wrote a short biography of literally every character that dies in his epics, no matter how irrelevant the character is
>Bible describes lots of completely irrelevant genealogies

oy vey

>>6634924
sum worth - nil

>>6634924
>dfw Infinite Jest does a better job at "world building" than GRRMA the Hutt or DFW's less talented friend

>>6632877
Curious, what would you say is a good fantasy novel?

>>6631448
She's a pretty shit-tier Marry Sue as far as Marry Sues go.

i just downloaded all the books and this thread is making me uncertain about reading them. fuck.

>>6635962

the ride never ends

>>6635926
Most people who are so critical are not inclined to open themselves up to similar criticism.

>>6635960
>Marry Sue
Either turns into a zombie or dies at the start of the next book.

>>6630480
Because Penny the tumbling dwarf.

Anyone? Anyone?

Also it's fantasy writing.

And it's just a remix of Osamu Tezuka's Buddha.

>>6636015
With way less tits and horrific violence.

If you have watched ANYTHING of the show, don't read these books. Not only will it impair you from your own personal world building, but you will also fucking hate it because of all the bloated repeated wording. I have to say, whoever the show writers are, I applaud them for developing the plot of the characters in a more coherent way than GRRM ever could have done with his skills.

Now, as a reader, that shouldn't dissuade you from reading these books. They're still enjoyable and before I saw/heard anything about these novels, I was deep into it, now I can't get fucking Lena Headey or Dinklefuck out of my mind whenever I read about them in the book.


I'll just have to settle for reading these again when I'm old and forget the show.

>>6636036
Unless you want to be a fantasy writer. Then you can see where GRRM falls short and do it better.

>>6635988
Lame

Accursed Kings is superior to A Song of Ice and Fire

>>6636036
would it be a good mental exercise to attempt forgetting the already built up world from the shows while reading the books?

>>6636082
I advise extreme caution. Strain too much and you will have an aneurysm.

I'm genuinely confused as to why did so much people became fans of the ASOIAF series. I mean, most of the story is about political shit in a fantasy world, and the author loves doing shit for the sake of shock value; and i thought people didn't liked that sort of stuff.

Can you guys please explain to me what the fuck happened? Does it have something to do with it being also an HBO series?

>>6635926
The Last Unicorn is the best fantasy novel and if you disagree you're not only a pleb, but a faggot.

>>6635926
what type of man-child reads fantasy novels

>>6636286
Proles and plebs. And the one exception that is me.

>>6631639
She'll break her "spokes" ;)

>>6631922
>Sounds like oppression. I'd still pass it. Send in the firing squad, I'm ready. bangbangbang

Go home, Martin!

>>6634844
checkmate

>>6635926
I'm not him but you may want to check out this guys reviews. http://www.goodreads.com/review/list/84023-keely?shelf=fantasy&sort=rating

>>6635962
Give them a try.

I did, and by the time I was getting to the end of the first book/season I had realised that
- the prose was abysmal (this is not a meme)
- it was boring, long and with not enough content
and most importantly:
- it added almost nothing to the series.

I decided to enjoy a good series in HBO, rather than reading bad, boring prose for a story that's meh.

[Addendum, for /tv/]
Eventually I got angry at the series because of the major deus ex machina at the end of Season 4.

The way he uses curse words and repeats phrases that sound anachronistic makes the book read like a nerds version of fifty shades of grey. It's not good prose, it's just good soap opera plot fodder.
I read them in like a month, which says something considering it's like 5000 pages. Most people that read like language a little more beautiful and challenging

>>6630480
Do you like the pulps but think they were too short?
Do you think the Wheel of Time was awesome but needed *less* believable characters and double the page count?
Do you think 'killing characters' = 'plot twist'?
Are you fond of idiot plots?
If so, sign right up.

>>6631734
>>6631900
>>6633039
Would you guys mind explaining what's bad about that passage besides the onomatopoeia? The rest of it looks unexceptional but just fine to me, but I don't know much about fiction writing

>>6638108
Haroooooooooo

>>6638108
The prose is stale and predictable and uses nothing but bland clichés. See >>6631748 for a good example. GRRM and most of his readers probably thought that analogy was creative and descriptive because they've never read literature before.

>>6630480
Not even George knows where the story is going, that's the feeling you get when you're reading the 3rd book. It makes the events and characters seem superfluous and that is only confirmed by their untimely deaths.

He's just a bad writer.

>>6630599
>>6630617
/thread